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WildcatYXU
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Re: Updated Air Canada fleet planes calls for accelerated phase out of E190s, 767s to exit by the end of 2019

Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:46 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
INFINITI329 wrote:
I was really hoping Rouge would have been a failed experiment but unfortunately, it looks like Rouge is here to stay.


If I may ask, why is that? What is wrong with Rouge?


Very uncomfortable seating in Y, sometimes questionable quality of on-board service.
310, 319, 320, 321, 321N, 332, 333, 343, 345, 346, 732, 735, 73G, 738, 744, 752, 753, 762, 763, 77L, 77W, 788, AT4, AT7, BEH, C402, CR2, CRA, CR9, DH1, DH3, DH4, E45, E75, E90, E95, F28, F50, F100, MD82, Saab 340, YAK40
 
sixtyseven
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Re: Updated Air Canada fleet planes calls for excelerated phase out of E190s, 767s to exit by the end of 2019

Thu Feb 22, 2018 6:02 pm

767333ER wrote:
sixtyseven wrote:
[twoid][/twoid]
zeke wrote:

You cannot load containers on a C300 or Max.


Who cares? Management do not care about this. People think containerized loading is such a massive deal.

The fact it didn’t have containerized loading was a PLUS for the 737 purchase, not the other way around.

An airline CEO doesn’t lose any sleep at night thinking about a baggage handler on his hands and knees chucking bags in the hold.

Well if they thought bulk loading was better on an A320/321 sized plane they would’ve equipped their Airbuses as such, but they equipped the, for containers. This makes loading especially faster and unloading too espically on the longer plane. The arrangements of baggage can be done in the containers and be ready for loading long before th plane even arrives leaving simply the task of loading the containers, arranging bulk has to be done on the plane in a crawl space which takes more time and if the aircraft is delayed there’s another way to save time lost. It makes it easier to locate where a specific bag is on a plane need it be removed for whatever reason. It also makes it a lot easier to load other cargo on palates, try that on a 737. The A319 is much shorter which probably means there is little to no advantage to container loading rather than bulk which is why they have equipped the A319s to be bulk loaded. Not something I would thing would be called a PLUS for the 737 purchase.


Well. The guy in charge of buying the airplane told me that to my face so I guess he’s in the wrong. This before the announcement was made. With the pluses come the negatives.

The equipment you need for loading unloading. Expensive to buy and maintain. You have to have it all in place at a gate so things like gate changes become logistical problems having to move all this equipment around. Plus the equipment on board. Heavy. Breaks down. More equipment moving around airplanes equals collisions with airplanes. I heard a number of somewhere around $20 million in damage was done to the fleet by ground equipment last year. Huge number. Container FMC loaders are large and tall, have torn into more than one 320wing canoe let me tell you.

You think if containerized loading is such a big deal how is southwest able to cope with the shortest min turnaround times in the industry? Seems to have worked pretty well for them.

I could careless. Doesn’t affect me. But I’m telling you this hang up people share on this site is not shared by those in the ivory tower. In fact it’s barely a blip.
Stand-by for new ATIS message......
 
LMFNINJA
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Re: Updated Air Canada fleet planes calls for accelerated phase out of E190s, 767s to exit by the end of 2019

Thu Feb 22, 2018 6:43 pm

ACDC8 wrote:
LMFNINJA wrote:
Happy to hear the E190s will be retired soon.Flew on them several times YYZ-LGA in the last year or so and they are shabby and depressing and ready for the Victorville scrapyard.

I'll be sad to see them go. Don't know which E190s you've been on, but the ones I've been on were clean and perfect.


The ones used YYZ-LGA are not in great shape. The seats are worn and the whole interior is rather dingy . They look many years older than what they probably are.
 
YYZLGA
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Re: Updated Air Canada fleet planes calls for accelerated phase out of E190s, 767s to exit by the end of 2019

Thu Feb 22, 2018 7:23 pm

LMFNINJA wrote:
The ones used YYZ-LGA are not in great shape. The seats are worn and the whole interior is rather dingy . They look many years older than what they probably are.


Really? As my handle might indicate, I fly that route constantly. I've never noticed any problem with them. I guess I'm not too fussy.

INFINITI329 wrote:
I remember when YYZ-LGA was a mixture of 175s and 190s. Now it is solely 319s and more than likely will go all CS300


It went E-jet right after Westjet started serving the route. Before that, it was all 319s and 320s. Not coincidentally, fares plummeted at the same time. Now I guess the route has grown enough that they can upgauge back to 319s. In the summer, you see more 320s and even a few 321s.

It'll be a shame when the mainline 767 is finally retired as it'll be the end of IRROPS AC widebodies to LGA.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Updated Air Canada fleet planes calls for accelerated phase out of E190s, 767s to exit by the end of 2019

Fri Feb 23, 2018 1:16 am

According to CH-aviation, Air Canada owns all of its Embraers. The ones previously retired had the following dispostion following sale:

3 scrapped (the 10th, 18th, and 19th E190s built), 2 likely part-out candidates (the 28th and 31st)
2 Stored at GWO
1 traded around multiple times, to Boeing, Delta, NAC, and now AeroVision (lessor), stored
8 traded around multiple times, to Boeing, Delta, and NAC, now leased to AeroMexico from NAC
3 leased to a Georgian airline

Can't locate the 20th. Does Air Canada have a deal in place to sell these remaining E190s to a lessor or airline, or be the lessor to another airline?
 
n7371f
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Re: Updated Air Canada fleet planes calls for excelerated phase out of E190s, 767s to exit by the end of 2019

Fri Feb 23, 2018 4:01 am

No AM interest in AC E90's.

EddieDude wrote:
AirbusMDCFAN wrote:
are there any airlines picking up 2nd hand early to mid year 2000 E190s for their fleets

I wonder if AM would be interested in a few.
 
737MAX7
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Re: Updated Air Canada fleet planes calls for excelerated phase out of E190s, 767s to exit by the end of 2019

Fri Feb 23, 2018 4:19 am

sixtyseven wrote:
767333ER wrote:
sixtyseven wrote:
[twoid][/twoid]

Who cares? Management do not care about this. People think containerized loading is such a massive deal.

The fact it didn’t have containerized loading was a PLUS for the 737 purchase, not the other way around.

An airline CEO doesn’t lose any sleep at night thinking about a baggage handler on his hands and knees chucking bags in the hold.

Well if they thought bulk loading was better on an A320/321 sized plane they would’ve equipped their Airbuses as such, but they equipped the, for containers. This makes loading especially faster and unloading too espically on the longer plane. The arrangements of baggage can be done in the containers and be ready for loading long before th plane even arrives leaving simply the task of loading the containers, arranging bulk has to be done on the plane in a crawl space which takes more time and if the aircraft is delayed there’s another way to save time lost. It makes it easier to locate where a specific bag is on a plane need it be removed for whatever reason. It also makes it a lot easier to load other cargo on palates, try that on a 737. The A319 is much shorter which probably means there is little to no advantage to container loading rather than bulk which is why they have equipped the A319s to be bulk loaded. Not something I would thing would be called a PLUS for the 737 purchase.


Well. The guy in charge of buying the airplane told me that to my face so I guess he’s in the wrong. This before the announcement was made. With the pluses come the negatives.

The equipment you need for loading unloading. Expensive to buy and maintain. You have to have it all in place at a gate so things like gate changes become logistical problems having to move all this equipment around. Plus the equipment on board. Heavy. Breaks down. More equipment moving around airplanes equals collisions with airplanes. I heard a number of somewhere around $20 million in damage was done to the fleet by ground equipment last year. Huge number. Container FMC loaders are large and tall, have torn into more than one 320wing canoe let me tell you.

You think if containerized loading is such a big deal how is southwest able to cope with the shortest min turnaround times in the industry? Seems to have worked pretty well for them.

I could careless. Doesn’t affect me. But I’m telling you this hang up people share on this site is not shared by those in the ivory tower. In fact it’s barely a blip.


90% of the time it takes longer to get the passengers on than to bulk load the bags as well.
 
NZ321
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Re: Updated Air Canada fleet planes calls for accelerated phase out of E190s, 767s to exit by the end of 2019

Fri Feb 23, 2018 2:12 pm

What's wrong with Rouge is that it's sometimes sold as part of other AC flights and if you aren't expecting it isn't always obvious it will be a Rouge flight and the product is entirely different. Other than that they seem to reasonably good at what they do.
Plane mad!
 
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WildcatYXU
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Re: Updated Air Canada fleet planes calls for excelerated phase out of E190s, 767s to exit by the end of 2019

Fri Feb 23, 2018 2:36 pm

737MAX7 wrote:

90% of the time it takes longer to get the passengers on than to bulk load the bags as well.


It is still irrelevant, as containerized cargo is an option on the A320 family. So if it would be an issue, they could be ordered bulk loaded - just as the 319's are.
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AC853
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Re: Updated Air Canada fleet planes calls for accelerated phase out of E190s, 767s to exit by the end of 2019

Sat Feb 24, 2018 1:21 am

KarelXWB wrote:
INFINITI329 wrote:
I was really hoping Rouge would have been a failed experiment but unfortunately, it looks like Rouge is here to stay.


If I may ask, why is that? What is wrong with Rouge?


The main issue is the uncomfortable seats. Reduced seat pitch is expected on a low cost carrier but why does the seat itself have to be so uncomfortable? The new seats on AC mainline are very slim but still quite comfortable. I don’t know why Rouge could not use the same seat (less the IFE). We have flown on the 763 to Hawaii from YVR but I could not imagine flying on one to Europe. I’m sure Westjet’s 763 would be much better with the old Qantas Y seats and pitch. Rouge 319’s are even worse with an unbelievably tight seat pitch.
 
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Acey
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Re: Updated Air Canada fleet planes calls for accelerated phase out of E190s, 767s to exit by the end of 2019

Sat Feb 24, 2018 1:48 am

Rouge 319's are a crime against humanity, and fares are no lower than mainline. That's what's wrong with Rouge. It saddens me to see anyone celebrate the departure of the E90's whose 2x2 seating is quite lovely in comparison.
If a man hasn't discovered something that he will die for, he isn't fit to live. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
Dominion301
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Re: Updated Air Canada fleet planes calls for accelerated phase out of E190s, 767s to exit by the end of 2019

Tue Feb 27, 2018 6:34 pm

Acey wrote:
Rouge 319's are a crime against humanity, and fares are no lower than mainline. That's what's wrong with Rouge. It saddens me to see anyone celebrate the departure of the E90's whose 2x2 seating is quite lovely in comparison.


It may be wrong for the passengers, but it certainly is right for AC's bean counters.
 
1900Driver
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Re: Updated Air Canada fleet planes calls for accelerated phase out of E190s, 767s to exit by the end of 2019

Tue Feb 27, 2018 7:12 pm

AC853 wrote:
KarelXWB wrote:
INFINITI329 wrote:
I was really hoping Rouge would have been a failed experiment but unfortunately, it looks like Rouge is here to stay.


If I may ask, why is that? What is wrong with Rouge?


The main issue is the uncomfortable seats. Reduced seat pitch is expected on a low cost carrier but why does the seat itself have to be so uncomfortable? The new seats on AC mainline are very slim but still quite comfortable. I don’t know why Rouge could not use the same seat (less the IFE). We have flown on the 763 to Hawaii from YVR but I could not imagine flying on one to Europe. I’m sure Westjet’s 763 would be much better with the old Qantas Y seats and pitch. Rouge 319’s are even worse with an unbelievably tight seat pitch.


How can you compare the seating on a rv 319 vs a ws767? A more appropriate comparison would be a rv767 vs ws767.
 
Whiteguy
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Re: Updated Air Canada fleet planes calls for excelerated phase out of E190s, 767s to exit by the end of 2019

Tue Feb 27, 2018 7:58 pm

sixtyseven wrote:
767333ER wrote:
sixtyseven wrote:
[twoid][/twoid]

Who cares? Management do not care about this. People think containerized loading is such a massive deal.

The fact it didn’t have containerized loading was a PLUS for the 737 purchase, not the other way around.

An airline CEO doesn’t lose any sleep at night thinking about a baggage handler on his hands and knees chucking bags in the hold.

Well if they thought bulk loading was better on an A320/321 sized plane they would’ve equipped their Airbuses as such, but they equipped the, for containers. This makes loading especially faster and unloading too espically on the longer plane. The arrangements of baggage can be done in the containers and be ready for loading long before th plane even arrives leaving simply the task of loading the containers, arranging bulk has to be done on the plane in a crawl space which takes more time and if the aircraft is delayed there’s another way to save time lost. It makes it easier to locate where a specific bag is on a plane need it be removed for whatever reason. It also makes it a lot easier to load other cargo on palates, try that on a 737. The A319 is much shorter which probably means there is little to no advantage to container loading rather than bulk which is why they have equipped the A319s to be bulk loaded. Not something I would thing would be called a PLUS for the 737 purchase.


Well. The guy in charge of buying the airplane told me that to my face so I guess he’s in the wrong. This before the announcement was made. With the pluses come the negatives.

The equipment you need for loading unloading. Expensive to buy and maintain. You have to have it all in place at a gate so things like gate changes become logistical problems having to move all this equipment around. Plus the equipment on board. Heavy. Breaks down. More equipment moving around airplanes equals collisions with airplanes. I heard a number of somewhere around $20 million in damage was done to the fleet by ground equipment last year. Huge number. Container FMC loaders are large and tall, have torn into more than one 320wing canoe let me tell you.

You think if containerized loading is such a big deal how is southwest able to cope with the shortest min turnaround times in the industry? Seems to have worked pretty well for them.

I could careless. Doesn’t affect me. But I’m telling you this hang up people share on this site is not shared by those in the ivory tower. In fact it’s barely a blip.


And where is the guy in charge of ordering the MAX? “Early retirement!” :lol:
 
Hallmark806
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Re: Updated Air Canada fleet planes calls for excelerated phase out of E190s, 767s to exit by the end of 2019

Tue Feb 27, 2018 10:42 pm

MartyMcFlyYYC wrote:
With the 767 phase out, is it safe to assume YYZ-YYC-NRT will go 787?

In the AC summer schedule the 787 has been used for the last 3 years - at least on the YYC-NRT portion as AC flight 9.
 
Dominion301
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Re: Updated Air Canada fleet planes calls for excelerated phase out of E190s, 767s to exit by the end of 2019

Wed Feb 28, 2018 3:44 am

Hallmark806 wrote:
MartyMcFlyYYC wrote:
With the 767 phase out, is it safe to assume YYZ-YYC-NRT will go 787?

In the AC summer schedule the 787 has been used for the last 3 years - at least on the YYC-NRT portion as AC flight 9.


This summer AC have the 763 loaded on YYZ-YYC-NRT.

How many mainline 763 frames are planned to be in the fleet this summer? 5? The above route requires 2 frames. The other 763 routes include YYZ-YEG, YYZ-YOW, YOW-FRA, YOW-LHR & YHZ-LHR. However, if there are only going to be 5 mainline 763s, then YHZ-LHR is getting MAXed...the 7M8 YHZ schedule that currently doesn’t make sense seems to support this. I guess we’ll find out for sure in the next couple of days.
 
leyland1989
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Re: Updated Air Canada fleet planes calls for excelerated phase out of E190s, 767s to exit by the end of 2019

Wed Feb 28, 2018 4:08 am

346fetish wrote:
It looks like AC are already planning for the elimination of the E90 fleet as this summer they're largely now relegated to high RASM short-haul routes.


YOW-YYZ are currently flown almost exclusively by E90 + a daily 767 (some A319/320 on occasions)
but looks like all flights have been scheduled to either A319 or A320 after the first week of September.

I suspect the majority of E90 will indeed be gone by September after the summer season.

Edit:
actually I might be wrong,
E90 reappears on their booking site in the winter but of course it can be changed easily. :/
Airbus:319,320,321,332,333,343,345,346,359,388
Boeing: 717,734,738,739,753,74R,742,743,744,74E,748,763,772,773,77E,77L,77W,788,789
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hkcanadaexpat
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Re: Updated Air Canada fleet planes calls for excelerated phase out of E190s, 767s to exit by the end of 2019

Wed Feb 28, 2018 4:35 am

Dominion301 wrote:
How many mainline 763 frames are planned to be in the fleet this summer? 5? The above route requires 2 frames. The other 763 routes include YYZ-YEG, YYZ-YOW, YOW-FRA, YOW-LHR & YHZ-LHR. However, if there are only going to be 5 mainline 763s, then YHZ-LHR is getting MAXed...the 7M8 YHZ schedule that currently doesn’t make sense seems to support this. I guess we’ll find out for sure in the next couple of days.

So we're at 8 now and we'll end the year with 6 so 5 is definitely not the answer. I strongly presume there will be 8 throughout the busy summer schedule with the 2 to be retired being done so in the fall. I wouldn't be surprised if they don't get retired until the end of the year and kept around in the fall while some of the other 763s go through maintenance stops.
 
briguychau
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Re: Updated Air Canada fleet planes calls for accelerated phase out of E190s, 767s to exit by the end of 2019

Wed Feb 28, 2018 8:12 am

Current S18 767 flights:

YYZ-YYC-NRT AC9/10
YYZ-YEG AC163/168
YYZ-WAW AC826/827 (moved from Rouge to mainline)
YYZ-YOW AC462/461
YOW-LHR AC888/889
YOW-FRA AC838/839
YHZ-LHR AC860/861

Right now the schedule is doable with 7 frames (even if you include a YYZ-YHZ round-trip to feed the YHZ-LHR flights). If YHZ-LHR is flown by the B38M then it'll be possible with 6 frames.

(As of the current schedule it's not possible to run the LHR flights as YOW-LHR-YHZ-LHR-YOW since YOW-LHR AC888 arrives too late for LHR-YHZ AC861 to depart on time.)
 
briguychau
Posts: 246
Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2012 8:47 pm

Re: Updated Air Canada fleet planes calls for accelerated phase out of E190s, 767s to exit by the end of 2019

Wed Feb 28, 2018 8:30 am

As a side note, OP's linked article quotes AC's 2017 Q4 earnings call as the source of AC dumping all E190s by the end of 2019. However, in this document https://www.aircanada.com/content/dam/a ... MDA_q4.pdf , which is released that very same day related to the Q4 earnings report, the fleet chart on page 42 shows 14 E190s remaining by the end of 2019.

So my point is, was the updated retirement schedule announced during the call itself? If so, why does the document released the very same day contradict what was announced during the earnings call? And if not so, where did the article get the source from?
 
Dominion301
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Re: Updated Air Canada fleet planes calls for accelerated phase out of E190s, 767s to exit by the end of 2019

Fri Mar 02, 2018 2:37 am

briguychau wrote:
As a side note, OP's linked article quotes AC's 2017 Q4 earnings call as the source of AC dumping all E190s by the end of 2019. However, in this document https://www.aircanada.com/content/dam/a ... MDA_q4.pdf , which is released that very same day related to the Q4 earnings report, the fleet chart on page 42 shows 14 E190s remaining by the end of 2019.

So my point is, was the updated retirement schedule announced during the call itself? If so, why does the document released the very same day contradict what was announced during the earnings call? And if not so, where did the article get the source from?


I wonder if the CSeries continues to face delivery delays, whether the E90s will go a bit slower? When exactly in 2019 is the first CS3 expected?
 
9252fly
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Re: Updated Air Canada fleet planes calls for accelerated phase out of E190s, 767s to exit by the end of 2019

Fri Mar 02, 2018 2:57 am

Dominion301 wrote:
briguychau wrote:
As a side note, OP's linked article quotes AC's 2017 Q4 earnings call as the source of AC dumping all E190s by the end of 2019. However, in this document https://www.aircanada.com/content/dam/a ... MDA_q4.pdf , which is released that very same day related to the Q4 earnings report, the fleet chart on page 42 shows 14 E190s remaining by the end of 2019.

So my point is, was the updated retirement schedule announced during the call itself? If so, why does the document released the very same day contradict what was announced during the earnings call? And if not so, where did the article get the source from?


I wonder if the CSeries continues to face delivery delays, whether the E90s will go a bit slower? When exactly in 2019 is the first CS3 expected?


December. If Bombardier is still suffering production delays then, there truly is no hope for the C-Series.
 
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SuperTwin
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Re: Updated Air Canada fleet planes calls for accelerated phase out of E190s, 767s to exit by the end of 2019

Fri Mar 02, 2018 4:20 am

briguychau wrote:
As a side note, OP's linked article quotes AC's 2017 Q4 earnings call as the source of AC dumping all E190s by the end of 2019. However, in this document https://www.aircanada.com/content/dam/a ... MDA_q4.pdf , which is released that very same day related to the Q4 earnings report, the fleet chart on page 42 shows 14 E190s remaining by the end of 2019.

So my point is, was the updated retirement schedule announced during the call itself? If so, why does the document released the very same day contradict what was announced during the earnings call? And if not so, where did the article get the source from?


Per the earnings call transcript from the Q&A with analysts (sourced from seekingalpha):

Rousseau:
“We have also made decisions to accelerate the removal of the Embraer 190s from our mainline fleet. To do this we will retain the airbus 319 aircraft a little bit longer than initially planned at the bridge to the deliveries of the Bombardier C-Series scheduled to commence in late 2019. The airbus 319 aircraft typically has a lower CASM than the E190.”

Rovinescu:
“We certainly hope so. We will market these planes as they leave our fleet over the next 18 months or so. Our expectation is that we will sell them into the marketplace.”
SuperTwin
 
briguychau
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Re: Updated Air Canada fleet planes calls for accelerated phase out of E190s, 767s to exit by the end of 2019

Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:19 am

SuperTwin wrote:
briguychau wrote:
As a side note, OP's linked article quotes AC's 2017 Q4 earnings call as the source of AC dumping all E190s by the end of 2019. However, in this document https://www.aircanada.com/content/dam/a ... MDA_q4.pdf , which is released that very same day related to the Q4 earnings report, the fleet chart on page 42 shows 14 E190s remaining by the end of 2019.

So my point is, was the updated retirement schedule announced during the call itself? If so, why does the document released the very same day contradict what was announced during the earnings call? And if not so, where did the article get the source from?


Per the earnings call transcript from the Q&A with analysts (sourced from seekingalpha):

Rousseau:
“We have also made decisions to accelerate the removal of the Embraer 190s from our mainline fleet. To do this we will retain the airbus 319 aircraft a little bit longer than initially planned at the bridge to the deliveries of the Bombardier C-Series scheduled to commence in late 2019. The airbus 319 aircraft typically has a lower CASM than the E190.”

Rovinescu:
“We certainly hope so. We will market these planes as they leave our fleet over the next 18 months or so. Our expectation is that we will sell them into the marketplace.”


Reading the transcript, I'm inclined to take it to mean that the Embraer 190s will start to be retired in the next 18 months, and not fully retired by the end of 2019 (as OP's article states).

Here's a comparison at the fleet diagrams between the 2017 Q3 and 2017 Q4 financial reports. In the Q3 report, no E190s were set to be retired before Dec 2018, while in the Q4 report, 6 E190s will be gone by Dec 2018. In fact, the column for 2018 changes used to show a removal of 8 A319s, while the new report shows a removal of only 2 A319s and 6 E190s, which corresponds with the "we will retain A319s longer" statement.

Image
Image
 
briguychau
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Re: Updated Air Canada fleet planes calls for accelerated phase out of E190s, 767s to exit by the end of 2019

Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:32 am

Also, Fin 684 C-FCAG (767-300ER LN220) was ferried to MZJ today, so AC mainline is down to 7 767s.
 
LMFNINJA
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Re: Updated Air Canada fleet planes calls for accelerated phase out of E190s, 767s to exit by the end of 2019

Fri Mar 02, 2018 9:42 am

KarelXWB wrote:
INFINITI329 wrote:
I was really hoping Rouge would have been a failed experiment but unfortunately, it looks like Rouge is here to stay.


If I may ask, why is that? What is wrong with Rouge?


The seat pitch on the Rouge A319s are the worst I have ever been on and I am only 5'8". Incredibly uncomfortable.
 
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longhauler
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Re: Updated Air Canada fleet planes calls for accelerated phase out of E190s, 767s to exit by the end of 2019

Fri Mar 02, 2018 2:55 pm

The E190 is a fine airplane. As far as I can tell, Air Canada is happy with it. It did exactly as Embraer said it would and there is a marked preference by passengers over other narrow body aircraft.

However, what made sense in 2004 does not make sense now. North American carriers are now leaning towards higher density as passenger preference for lower fares continues. So frankly, I am not surprised that it is being replaced by larger aircraft. Sad. I have fond memories of them.

Another factor is fuel burn. I recall that the E190's burn was not much less than an A319. Now I am hearing it is about the same as the new 737MAX, as the majority of our 737 crews came from the E190. When accountants decide aircraft types instead of emotion ... this is not surprising.

With regard to Rouge ... yes, it's here to stay. With high 90s load factors and an 80% repeat rate, I'd say the experiment was successful.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
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767333ER
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Re: Updated Air Canada fleet planes calls for accelerated phase out of E190s, 767s to exit by the end of 2019

Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:02 pm

LMFNINJA wrote:
KarelXWB wrote:
INFINITI329 wrote:
I was really hoping Rouge would have been a failed experiment but unfortunately, it looks like Rouge is here to stay.


If I may ask, why is that? What is wrong with Rouge?


The seat pitch on the Rouge A319s are the worst I have ever been on and I am only 5'8". Incredibly uncomfortable.

Don’t ever fly short haul flights in Europe then.
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Re: Updated Air Canada fleet plan calls for accelerated phase out of E190s, 767s to exit by the end of 2019

Thu Mar 15, 2018 3:45 am

AC has officially MAXed AC860/AC861 YHZ-LHR-YHZ as of April 4th, 2018. No more scheduled AC widebody service in Halifax to LHR or YYZ.
 
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Re: Updated Air Canada fleet plan calls for accelerated phase out of E190s, 767s to exit by the end of 2019

Thu Mar 15, 2018 5:54 pm

AC330 wrote:
AC has officially MAXed AC860/AC861 YHZ-LHR-YHZ as of April 4th, 2018. No more scheduled AC widebody service in Halifax to LHR or YYZ.


Yeah I just saw that too. My suspicions were correct as the YHZ AC flight schedule for the summer didn't add up. I bet AC were planning on keeping YHZ a 767 until WS' announcement of adding a daily YHZ-LGW.

Even if Condor is the only widebody passenger flight YHZ will see this summer, they still have a phenomenal transatlantic offering for the size of the city.
 
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Re: Updated Air Canada fleet plan calls for accelerated phase out of E190s, 767s to exit by the end of 2019

Thu Mar 15, 2018 10:19 pm

Dominion301 wrote:
Even if Condor is the only widebody passenger flight YHZ will see this summer, they still have a phenomenal transatlantic offering for the size of the city.

Location, location, location!
 
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FedEx747
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Re: Updated Air Canada fleet plan calls for accelerated phase out of E190s, 767s to exit by the end of 2019

Tue Mar 27, 2018 2:02 pm

Really not sure why they would retire the E190, they are very usefull and not even that old. (1999) Yet they have 97 of them,(i think that that is wrong though. (wikipedia) It also says they retired their 175s in 2015, i flew on one last year to Boston from Toronto. (it was not even Air Canada Jazz or Express. (speculation much?) This is what Wikipedia says about their 190s: 6 aircraft phased out by the end of 2018. 5 further aircraft phased out by the end of 2019.[94]
To be replaced by Boeing 737 MAX 8 and Bombardier CS300[52]

Thanks, FedEx747
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Re: Updated Air Canada fleet plan calls for accelerated phase out of E190s, 767s to exit by the end of 2019

Tue Mar 27, 2018 2:37 pm

FedEx747 wrote:
Really not sure why they would retire the E190, they are very usefull and not even that old. (1999) Yet they have 97 of them,(i think that that is wrong though. (wikipedia) It also says they retired their 175s in 2015, i flew on one last year to Boston from Toronto. (it was not even Air Canada Jazz or Express. (speculation much?) This is what Wikipedia says about their 190s: 6 aircraft phased out by the end of 2018. 5 further aircraft phased out by the end of 2019.[94]
To be replaced by Boeing 737 MAX 8 and Bombardier CS300[52]

Thanks, FedEx747


97??? AFAIK AC has had a max of 45 190s. It would appear that 19 are already gone, and the first ship has in fact even been parted out. I think they're up to 25 or so 175s though, but the original mainline ones are now at Sky Regional and that fleet has in fact been growing.

I guess at mainline, they just couldn't make the numbers work for the 190s.

Beech
 
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Re: Updated Air Canada fleet planes calls for accelerated phase out of E190s, 767s to exit by the end of 2019

Tue Mar 27, 2018 3:43 pm

Acey wrote:
Rouge 319's are a crime against humanity, and fares are no lower than mainline. That's what's wrong with Rouge. It saddens me to see anyone celebrate the departure of the E90's whose 2x2 seating is quite lovely in comparison.


Flew on a Rouge A319 from YYZ-LAS. Worst flight ever. No legroom and I am only 5'8".
 
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Re: Updated Air Canada fleet plan calls for accelerated phase out of E190s, 767s to exit by the end of 2019

Tue Mar 27, 2018 3:44 pm

FedEx747 wrote:
Really not sure why they would retire the E190, they are very usefull and not even that old. (1999) Yet they have 97 of them,(i think that that is wrong though. (wikipedia) It also says they retired their 175s in 2015, i flew on one last year to Boston from Toronto. (it was not even Air Canada Jazz or Express. (speculation much?) This is what Wikipedia says about their 190s: 6 aircraft phased out by the end of 2018. 5 further aircraft phased out by the end of 2019.[94]
To be replaced by Boeing 737 MAX 8 and Bombardier CS300[52]

Thanks, FedEx747

The "97" you see on wikipedia is the number of seats on the E190.

The original order was for 15 E175s and 45 E190s. The 15 E175s went to Skyregional and the E190s are being retired. The plan was for 20 E190s to be retired (quickly) with 25 remaining to the end of the fleet plan. That has been changed, and now all E190s are being retired quickly.

They are/were fine aircraft and as far as Air Canada is saying publicly, they are very happy with the aircraft. They did exactly as Embraer promised. But what made sense in the early 2003, to be delivered in 2005 does not make sense now. With load factors higher, and fares lower, it makes sense to operate larger aircraft in a more dense configuration.

Remember what I said on another thread ... the fuel burn for the E190 is exactly the same as the 737-MAX8!
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Re: Updated Air Canada fleet planes calls for accelerated phase out of E190s, 767s to exit by the end of 2019

Tue Mar 27, 2018 3:59 pm

briguychau wrote:
Current S18 767 flights:

YYZ-YYC-NRT AC9/10
YYZ-YEG AC163/168
YYZ-WAW AC826/827 (moved from Rouge to mainline)
YYZ-YOW AC462/461
YOW-LHR AC888/889
YOW-FRA AC838/839
YHZ-LHR AC860/861

Right now the schedule is doable with 7 frames (even if you include a YYZ-YHZ round-trip to feed the YHZ-LHR flights). If YHZ-LHR is flown by the B38M then it'll be possible with 6 frames.

(As of the current schedule it's not possible to run the LHR flights as YOW-LHR-YHZ-LHR-YOW since YOW-LHR AC888 arrives too late for LHR-YHZ AC861 to depart on time.)


In Summer 2019, are there any thoughts on whether YOW to LHR and FRA will switch to the A330-300, B787-8/9, or will these being among the last mainline 767 routes?
 
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Re: Updated Air Canada fleet plan calls for accelerated phase out of E190s, 767s to exit by the end of 2019

Tue Mar 27, 2018 4:10 pm

longhauler wrote:

Remember what I said on another thread ... the fuel burn for the E190 is exactly the same as the 737-MAX8!


Is it even physically possible? The 7M8 weighs 18 tons more compared to the E90. And the maximum payload is 7 tons higher too. It looks like awful lot of extra weight being carried while using the same amount of fuel.
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Re: Updated Air Canada fleet plan calls for accelerated phase out of E190s, 767s to exit by the end of 2019

Tue Mar 27, 2018 4:22 pm

WildcatYXU wrote:
longhauler wrote:

Remember what I said on another thread ... the fuel burn for the E190 is exactly the same as the 737-MAX8!


Is it even physically possible? The 7M8 weighs 18 tons more compared to the E90. And the maximum payload is 7 tons higher too. It looks like awful lot of extra weight being carried while using the same amount of fuel.


A large portion of the efficiency gains have been in the engines. The CFM LEAP is a brand new design while the GE CF34 traces its roots back to the 1980s.
 
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Re: Updated Air Canada fleet plan calls for accelerated phase out of E190s, 767s to exit by the end of 2019

Tue Mar 27, 2018 4:29 pm

WildcatYXU wrote:
longhauler wrote:

Remember what I said on another thread ... the fuel burn for the E190 is exactly the same as the 737-MAX8!


Is it even physically possible? The 7M8 weighs 18 tons more compared to the E90. And the maximum payload is 7 tons higher too. It looks like awful lot of extra weight being carried while using the same amount of fuel.

I understand your scepticism. I was the same when these "rumours" were coming from our guys on the new Boeing. By happenstance, most of our MAX8 pilots came off the E190, so it was fresh in their minds.

But, I did pull a few MAX8 flights plans out of the computer, and there it was ... astoundingly low fuel burns.

As much as I am an Airbus fan, I have to tip my hat towards Boeing with this new aircraft!
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
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Re: Updated Air Canada fleet planes calls for accelerated phase out of E190s, 767s to exit by the end of 2019

Tue Mar 27, 2018 5:51 pm

gte439u wrote:
briguychau wrote:
Current S18 767 flights:

YYZ-YYC-NRT AC9/10
YYZ-YEG AC163/168
YYZ-WAW AC826/827 (moved from Rouge to mainline)
YYZ-YOW AC462/461
YOW-LHR AC888/889
YOW-FRA AC838/839
YHZ-LHR AC860/861

Right now the schedule is doable with 7 frames (even if you include a YYZ-YHZ round-trip to feed the YHZ-LHR flights). If YHZ-LHR is flown by the B38M then it'll be possible with 6 frames.

(As of the current schedule it's not possible to run the LHR flights as YOW-LHR-YHZ-LHR-YOW since YOW-LHR AC888 arrives too late for LHR-YHZ AC861 to depart on time.)


In Summer 2019, are there any thoughts on whether YOW to LHR and FRA will switch to the A330-300, B787-8/9, or will these being among the last mainline 767 routes?


I would hazard a guess all YOW widebody routes will stay 763 until the very end. After 2019, I would bet on the 788 taking over YOW-LHR and YOW-FRA. While not the optimal aircraft for the stage length, AC are using the 788 on YUL-FRA this summer and the 788 is certainly the optimal size of aircraft for YOW. On top of that, unless YYZ becomes a 333 base again with the 4 upcoming used frames, it's a lot easier to rotate a 788 YYZ based crew on a Rapidair than it is to rotate a 333 YUL crew.

longhauler wrote:
WildcatYXU wrote:
longhauler wrote:

Remember what I said on another thread ... the fuel burn for the E190 is exactly the same as the 737-MAX8!


Is it even physically possible? The 7M8 weighs 18 tons more compared to the E90. And the maximum payload is 7 tons higher too. It looks like awful lot of extra weight being carried while using the same amount of fuel.

I understand your scepticism. I was the same when these "rumours" were coming from our guys on the new Boeing. By happenstance, most of our MAX8 pilots came off the E190, so it was fresh in their minds.

But, I did pull a few MAX8 flights plans out of the computer, and there it was ... astoundingly low fuel burns.

As much as I am an Airbus fan, I have to tip my hat towards Boeing with this new aircraft!


That is quite astounding. As an Airbus narrowbody fan myself too, I wonder what the NEO's numbers would have looked like for AC? I also wonder what the E2 vs 7M8 differential will be? I still think there's a place for the 321LR at AC for all those places the 7M8 can't reach and fingers crossed it'll be with AC someday. For example, it would be the perfect sized aircraft to bring YOW-FRA back up to year-round service outside of the peak summer months.
 
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767333ER
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Re: Updated Air Canada fleet planes calls for accelerated phase out of E190s, 767s to exit by the end of 2019

Tue Mar 27, 2018 6:17 pm

Dominion301 wrote:
gte439u wrote:
briguychau wrote:
Current S18 767 flights:

YYZ-YYC-NRT AC9/10
YYZ-YEG AC163/168
YYZ-WAW AC826/827 (moved from Rouge to mainline)
YYZ-YOW AC462/461
YOW-LHR AC888/889
YOW-FRA AC838/839
YHZ-LHR AC860/861

Right now the schedule is doable with 7 frames (even if you include a YYZ-YHZ round-trip to feed the YHZ-LHR flights). If YHZ-LHR is flown by the B38M then it'll be possible with 6 frames.

(As of the current schedule it's not possible to run the LHR flights as YOW-LHR-YHZ-LHR-YOW since YOW-LHR AC888 arrives too late for LHR-YHZ AC861 to depart on time.)


In Summer 2019, are there any thoughts on whether YOW to LHR and FRA will switch to the A330-300, B787-8/9, or will these being among the last mainline 767 routes?


I would hazard a guess all YOW widebody routes will stay 763 until the very end. After 2019, I would bet on the 788 taking over YOW-LHR and YOW-FRA. While not the optimal aircraft for the stage length, AC are using the 788 on YUL-FRA this summer and the 788 is certainly the optimal size of aircraft for YOW. On top of that, unless YYZ becomes a 333 base again with the 4 upcoming used frames, it's a lot easier to rotate a 788 YYZ based crew on a Rapidair than it is to rotate a 333 YUL crew.

longhauler wrote:
WildcatYXU wrote:

Is it even physically possible? The 7M8 weighs 18 tons more compared to the E90. And the maximum payload is 7 tons higher too. It looks like awful lot of extra weight being carried while using the same amount of fuel.

I understand your scepticism. I was the same when these "rumours" were coming from our guys on the new Boeing. By happenstance, most of our MAX8 pilots came off the E190, so it was fresh in their minds.

But, I did pull a few MAX8 flights plans out of the computer, and there it was ... astoundingly low fuel burns.

As much as I am an Airbus fan, I have to tip my hat towards Boeing with this new aircraft!


That is quite astounding. As an Airbus narrowbody fan myself too, I wonder what the NEO's numbers would have looked like for AC? I also wonder what the E2 vs 7M8 differential will be? I still think there's a place for the 321LR at AC for all those places the 7M8 can't reach and fingers crossed it'll be with AC someday. For example, it would be the perfect sized aircraft to bring YOW-FRA back up to year-round service outside of the peak summer months.

Two things at play with the 7M8 vs E90 fuel burn comparison. The CF34-10E was never as good as it was supposed to be at anything, fuel burn included. The 7M8 is using much newer engine technology which is doing its job to make it much more efficient. I would hazard a guess to say the E90 E2 would burn significantly less fuel than either of the others as it uses the newest and most optimized engine technology out of all 3, it just isn’t as reliable as it should be yet.

The A320/21neo would be an interesting comparison. It would go one of two ways in he current situation. If they equipped with LEAP-1A engines they’d be burning more fuel as they still haven’t fixed their issues. The PW1100G doesn’t have fuel burn problems at all, but it would be breaking down every now and then. Considering the 7M8 flights are generally between YUL/YYZ to either YVR or YYC with the most common right now being YYZ-YYC if they were running PW1100G or LEAP-1A without fuel burn issues on a flight of that length the engines would be running more efficiently due to better bypass ratio and optimization due to a bigger fan, they’d likely be using a bit less fuel, but the A320 takes less people which would be the trade off that would negate any fuel burn difference. Where Air Canada will really miss out is the A321neo/LR as those will probably be the most efficient narrow body available. Where they’d have already also saved money so far with A320neo would’ve been the setup cost, but considering the lowball price they got on the MAX none of this mattered so much.
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Re: Updated Air Canada fleet planes calls for accelerated phase out of E190s, 767s to exit by the end of 2019

Tue Mar 27, 2018 8:38 pm

767333ER wrote:
Dominion301 wrote:
gte439u wrote:

In Summer 2019, are there any thoughts on whether YOW to LHR and FRA will switch to the A330-300, B787-8/9, or will these being among the last mainline 767 routes?


I would hazard a guess all YOW widebody routes will stay 763 until the very end. After 2019, I would bet on the 788 taking over YOW-LHR and YOW-FRA. While not the optimal aircraft for the stage length, AC are using the 788 on YUL-FRA this summer and the 788 is certainly the optimal size of aircraft for YOW. On top of that, unless YYZ becomes a 333 base again with the 4 upcoming used frames, it's a lot easier to rotate a 788 YYZ based crew on a Rapidair than it is to rotate a 333 YUL crew.

longhauler wrote:
I understand your scepticism. I was the same when these "rumours" were coming from our guys on the new Boeing. By happenstance, most of our MAX8 pilots came off the E190, so it was fresh in their minds.

But, I did pull a few MAX8 flights plans out of the computer, and there it was ... astoundingly low fuel burns.

As much as I am an Airbus fan, I have to tip my hat towards Boeing with this new aircraft!


That is quite astounding. As an Airbus narrowbody fan myself too, I wonder what the NEO's numbers would have looked like for AC? I also wonder what the E2 vs 7M8 differential will be? I still think there's a place for the 321LR at AC for all those places the 7M8 can't reach and fingers crossed it'll be with AC someday. For example, it would be the perfect sized aircraft to bring YOW-FRA back up to year-round service outside of the peak summer months.

Two things at play with the 7M8 vs E90 fuel burn comparison. The CF34-10E was never as good as it was supposed to be at anything, fuel burn included. The 7M8 is using much newer engine technology which is doing its job to make it much more efficient. I would hazard a guess to say the E90 E2 would burn significantly less fuel than either of the others as it uses the newest and most optimized engine technology out of all 3, it just isn’t as reliable as it should be yet.


Reports are that E2 is ~17% better than E90, which seems huge. But if E90 = 7M8 then E2 is ~17% better than 7M8 (as it should be given the size of the frame and new engine tech)
If a man hasn't discovered something that he will die for, he isn't fit to live. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
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Re: Updated Air Canada fleet planes calls for accelerated phase out of E190s, 767s to exit by the end of 2019

Tue Mar 27, 2018 9:35 pm

Acey wrote:
767333ER wrote:
Dominion301 wrote:

I would hazard a guess all YOW widebody routes will stay 763 until the very end. After 2019, I would bet on the 788 taking over YOW-LHR and YOW-FRA. While not the optimal aircraft for the stage length, AC are using the 788 on YUL-FRA this summer and the 788 is certainly the optimal size of aircraft for YOW. On top of that, unless YYZ becomes a 333 base again with the 4 upcoming used frames, it's a lot easier to rotate a 788 YYZ based crew on a Rapidair than it is to rotate a 333 YUL crew.



That is quite astounding. As an Airbus narrowbody fan myself too, I wonder what the NEO's numbers would have looked like for AC? I also wonder what the E2 vs 7M8 differential will be? I still think there's a place for the 321LR at AC for all those places the 7M8 can't reach and fingers crossed it'll be with AC someday. For example, it would be the perfect sized aircraft to bring YOW-FRA back up to year-round service outside of the peak summer months.

Two things at play with the 7M8 vs E90 fuel burn comparison. The CF34-10E was never as good as it was supposed to be at anything, fuel burn included. The 7M8 is using much newer engine technology which is doing its job to make it much more efficient. I would hazard a guess to say the E90 E2 would burn significantly less fuel than either of the others as it uses the newest and most optimized engine technology out of all 3, it just isn’t as reliable as it should be yet.


Reports are that E2 is ~17% better than E90, which seems huge. But if E90 = 7M8 then E2 is ~17% better than 7M8 (as it should be given the size of the frame and new engine tech)


Maybe I am reading your post wrong, but something seems off. If an E90 burns the same fuel as 7M8 (not the same efficiency), an E2 will burn 17% less fuel, but seating 97 (est.) versus 169 on the 7M8.
 
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Acey
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Re: Updated Air Canada fleet plan calls for accelerated phase out of E190s, 767s to exit by the end of 2019

Tue Mar 27, 2018 10:04 pm

Yeah I mean it's already an apples to oranges comparison as one frame is significantly heavier and carries more payload, but my interpretation is that if a 7M8 and E2 were carrying their respective full passenger complements for the same trip we can assume the E2 will require approximately 17% less fuel to make the trip, which would therefore mean somewhat comparable efficiency? Whereas if a 7M8 and E1 have approximately the same uplift for a given trip as claimed, it obviously means one is far better than the other given the payload discrepancy.
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Re: Updated Air Canada fleet plan calls for accelerated phase out of E190s, 767s to exit by the end of 2019

Tue Mar 27, 2018 10:53 pm

I pulled out of couple of today's flight plans just to confirm to myself that the burns really are similar. While it is hard to compare flights as the two do not fly parallel flights, I found two with a similar flight time.

YYC-YYZ
7M8
169 passengers
Flying time 3:03
Flight fuel, 6300 kgs.

YYZ-YXE
E190
97 passengers
Flying time 3:14
Flight fuel, 6700 kgs.

Impressive!
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Re: Updated Air Canada fleet plan calls for accelerated phase out of E190s, 767s to exit by the end of 2019

Wed Mar 28, 2018 1:15 am

...that looks pretty terrible for the Embraer.
If a man hasn't discovered something that he will die for, he isn't fit to live. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
eamondzhang
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Re: Updated Air Canada fleet plan calls for accelerated phase out of E190s, 767s to exit by the end of 2019

Wed Mar 28, 2018 2:20 am

longhauler wrote:
I pulled out of couple of today's flight plans just to confirm to myself that the burns really are similar. While it is hard to compare flights as the two do not fly parallel flights, I found two with a similar flight time.

Impressive!

Indeed impressive figure to watch. Just curious do you also happen to have the figures for CRJ900 flights? I just wonder if that would be an issue specific to CF34-10 or a general CF-34 issue.

Thanks!

Michael
 
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Re: Updated Air Canada fleet plan calls for accelerated phase out of E190s, 767s to exit by the end of 2019

Wed Mar 28, 2018 2:56 am

I wonder what's going to happen to YYC-NRT once the 763's are gone?
 
Zortan
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Re: Updated Air Canada fleet planes calls for excelerated phase out of E190s, 767s to exit by the end of 2019

Wed Mar 28, 2018 3:34 am

aerolimani wrote:
Those A319's have turned out to be such workhorses for AC. They fly them on some pretty long segments too. I've enjoyed a lot of flights on them.
I personally wouldn't use the word enjoy for my A319 flights with AC, however, I think that their A319s are the best in the world, as far as A319s go. They have TVs, good legroom, etc., however, I still don't love them too much. When they were first introduced, however, I think that they would have been much better. Personally though, I can't wait until the 737 MAX and the Cseries.
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767333ER
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Re: Updated Air Canada fleet plan calls for accelerated phase out of E190s, 767s to exit by the end of 2019

Wed Mar 28, 2018 4:16 am

VonRichtofen wrote:
I wonder what's going to happen to YYC-NRT once the 763's are gone?

I imagine they’d most likely use the 788 again or if not maybe the 789, but oddly enough it’s currently scheduled through the summer as a 763 for now even though it usually has switched to 788 for the summer.
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