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kiowa
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"support dog" bites child on Southwest Airlines

Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:29 pm

Do we think it's time for more rules regarding "support animals" after one bites a child on the forehead on Southwest?

https://www.bloombergquint.com/onweb/20 ... ce-animals
 
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3rdGen
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Re: "support dog" bites child on Southwest Airlines

Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:37 pm

I'm surprised it took this long. Are support animals properly trained or can anyone show up with an animal and claim that they require it for support?
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jetwet1
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Re: "support dog" bites child on Southwest Airlines

Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:44 pm

3rdGen wrote:
I'm surprised it took this long. Are support animals properly trained or can anyone show up with an animal and claim that they require it for support?



Doctors note......

And yes, we had a "support" dog take a bite out of a guide dog at one of our properties last week, thankfully the dog only needed stitches, also thankfully Metro took good care of explaining to the "support" dog owner that they were responsible for all costs incurred. We transported the guide dog to a vet we use for our animals in one of our security vehicles.
 
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3rdGen
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Re: "support dog" bites child on Southwest Airlines

Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:49 pm

jetwet1 wrote:
3rdGen wrote:
I'm surprised it took this long. Are support animals properly trained or can anyone show up with an animal and claim that they require it for support?



Doctors note......

And yes, we had a "support" dog take a bite out of a guide dog at one of our properties last week, thankfully the dog only needed stitches, also thankfully Metro took good care of explaining to the "support" dog owner that they were responsible for all costs incurred. We transported the guide dog to a vet we use for our animals in one of our security vehicles.


The doctor's note indicates the passengers condition. But what about the animal. Who can verify how it will act when placed in a noisy, pressurised tube with people around. Potentially compromising the safety of everyone on board in order to satisfy the emotional needs of one person is not a reasonable risk to take.

In addition what's to say a person can't train a dog to dart into the cockpit and attack the flight crew should a sick individual have the motivation to get an animal on board for that purpose.
لا اله الا الله محمد رسول الله
 
shankly
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Re: "support dog" bites child on Southwest Airlines

Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:51 pm

I'm based in Cape Town and tempted to show up for my next flight back to London with a support Great White
L1011 - P F M
 
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United787
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Re: "support dog" bites child on Southwest Airlines

Thu Feb 22, 2018 6:03 pm

I think there is a simple solution. Support animals should have no possibility of affecting the other passengers in a negative way. It should be small enough to fit into a carrier that is small enough to fit under the seat in front of you, period. It should remain inside it's cage for the duration of the trip. It should also be hypoallergenic. There should be a finite list of pre-approved animals... no snakes, no scorpions and no great white sharks for starters...

My wife experienced the same large support dog for this woman on two different flights within the same week. The dog could not only not fit under the seat in front of her, it was in the legroom space of her neighbors. I don't understand how this is even legal. If luggage is required to be stowed and passengers required to be buckled during take off and landing... why are support animals exempt from that same requirement?
 
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tjwgrr
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Re: "support dog" bites child on Southwest Airlines

Thu Feb 22, 2018 6:09 pm

shankly wrote:
I'm based in Cape Town and tempted to show up for my next flight back to London with a support Great White


What about a support Cougar? :spin:
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Jetsouth
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Re: "support dog" bites child on Southwest Airlines

Thu Feb 22, 2018 6:10 pm

I do not know why airlines do not designate certain seats on the plane as "support animal friendly" If you want to take a support animal on the planes, you can only sit in those seats. If you do not want to be anywhere near a support animal seat, you take a seat far away.
 
bgm
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Re: "support dog" bites child on Southwest Airlines

Thu Feb 22, 2018 6:13 pm

Yet another uniquely American problem...

Maybe a muzzle would stop this from happening again?
 
DXTraveler
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Re: "support dog" bites child on Southwest Airlines

Thu Feb 22, 2018 6:23 pm

What about a support Cougar? :spin:[/quote]

Two or four legged? ;-)
 
alasizon
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Re: "support dog" bites child on Southwest Airlines

Thu Feb 22, 2018 6:31 pm

Unfortunately in the US, the rules are a bit laxxed because the support animals are covered by the Air Carrier Access Act.
Airport (noun) - A construction site which airplanes tend to frequent
 
AWACSooner
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Re: "support dog" bites child on Southwest Airlines

Thu Feb 22, 2018 6:38 pm

shankly wrote:
I'm based in Cape Town and tempted to show up for my next flight back to London with a support Great White

With what water to hold him in? ;)

Just head north to the Transvaal and pick up your emotional support spitting cobra...hours of guaranteed fun on the plane. Just pass out goggles to the flight crew...
 
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BN727227Ultra
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Re: "support dog" bites child on Southwest Airlines

Thu Feb 22, 2018 6:47 pm

tjwgrr wrote:
shankly wrote:
I'm based in Cape Town and tempted to show up for my next flight back to London with a support Great White


What about a support Cougar? :spin:


I'll plump for Liz Hurley... :lol:
 
shankly
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Re: "support dog" bites child on Southwest Airlines

Thu Feb 22, 2018 7:47 pm

tjwgrr wrote:
shankly wrote:
I'm based in Cape Town and tempted to show up for my next flight back to London with a support Great White


What about a support Cougar? :spin:


PM me next time you are in town and we can do those bars as well!
L1011 - P F M
 
Flighty
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Re: "support dog" bites child on Southwest Airlines

Thu Feb 22, 2018 8:02 pm

What is really sad is that the dog almost certainly has to be put down too. I can't think of a more clearly documented case where the animal has to be destroyed. The owner should be fined for animal cruelty too. And needless to say, the owner should be on a no-fly list for life for causing a child's injury on the airplane. It's sad when people behave in such a stupid and selfish way. Consequences are how people learn to do better.
 
estorilm
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Re: "support dog" bites child on Southwest Airlines

Thu Feb 22, 2018 8:12 pm

United787 wrote:
I think there is a simple solution. Support animals should have no possibility of affecting the other passengers in a negative way. It should be small enough to fit into a carrier that is small enough to fit under the seat in front of you, period. It should remain inside it's cage for the duration of the trip. It should also be hypoallergenic. There should be a finite list of pre-approved animals... no snakes, no scorpions and no great white sharks for starters...

My wife experienced the same large support dog for this woman on two different flights within the same week. The dog could not only not fit under the seat in front of her, it was in the legroom space of her neighbors. I don't understand how this is even legal. If luggage is required to be stowed and passengers required to be buckled during take off and landing... why are support animals exempt from that same requirement?

It doesn't really work like that. Perhaps size could be screened somehow for a "support animal" - however many are forgetting that these "support dogs" are being used under the guise of service animals, and per ADA regulations can not be questioned nor denied access. The protections for such animals are VERY strong.

Of course those laws were drawn up in the pre-"tide pod eating generation" era where common sense prevailed - now everything is just chaos. Unfortunately, in order to protect those with legitimate needs, it becomes difficult to weed out the ankle-biting chihuahuas and such.

A friend of mine has a number of different cardio problems, and the two of us helped train her mini Australian Shepherd (though he's typical size of a small standard Aussie) from a puppy to be her cardiac alert dog. After hundreds of hours and every class available, including AKC canine good citizen training and achievement, advanced handling classes, on top of all the cardiac alert training, he is absolutely perfect in public.

Most of these people don't have the slightest idea how to teach their dog to sit, much less the training required to have a safe and well-mannered dog in public. Planes are an even higher level of achievement. But nope, lets just throw the ankle-biter with zero training or manners into the purse and head off to the airport. :mad: Makes me absolutely furious.

In any event, whatever you propose eventually comes back to requiring some kind of separation of service dogs with "support animals" - which would require re-writing the ADA laws and regs on anonymity and vetting, identification, etc of current (legitimate) service dogs. Unfortunately I think that's the bottom line - there does need to be some formal way of doing that, while maintaining adequate privacy. If this can be achieved, the INSANE number of fake animals will be denied instantly. This would apply to malls, stores, etc too - I mean people literally buy patches on amazon and slap them on a vest and just carry their pets around everywhere. Grrr.

Okay.. /rant sorry.
 
Kilopond
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Re: "support dog" bites child on Southwest Airlines

Thu Feb 22, 2018 8:15 pm

bgm wrote:
Yet another uniquely American problem...

Maybe a muzzle would stop this from happening again?


Exactly my thought!

Besides that, the US authorities could stop that pet anarchy and copy the bureaucracy (read: clear rules!) of other parts of the world. Here is how pet passports issued by Switzerland and the Netherlands look (random examples from wikipedia):

Image

Image
 
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Tugger
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Re: "support dog" bites child on Southwest Airlines

Thu Feb 22, 2018 8:40 pm

kiowa wrote:
"support dog" bites child on Southwest Airlines

I am not sure but I think the article titling is being misleading. Per the linked article:
The dog was in the first row of seats against a bulkhead when the girl, about six years old, approached it after the owner had asked her to stay back, said Southwest spokeswoman Melissa Ford. The dog’s teeth “scraped” the girl’s forehead as it turned away, breaking the skin and causing a minor injury, she said.

Now don't get me wrong, the word "scraped" sounds like extreme word play BUT the whole quote indicates that the dog in fact did not "bite" the girl. Rather the dog turned, or was pulled away, from the girl and the dogs head and teeth hit the girls forehead.

We can all laugh at the absurdity or claim it is wordsmithing at its worst but if taken as is, which I assume to be accurate as I have not heard of any counter version, this was not a bite, not an attack on the girl by the dog. In fact based on the statement, which I see no reason why Southwest would protect the dog and owner which would put the airline at even more risk, the owner told the girl to stay away, and it appears that when the girl did not, the dog was ordered or pulled away and because the girl was too close, the abrupt movement of the dogs head "smacked" her head and its teeth "scraped" her.

You could say that the girls parents were in fact responsible as they did not keep control of their child. I agree that "support animals" is wildly abused and needs to be stopped but this may not be the right example of the wrongness of it, just another way it is an issue. Honestly were a parent to allow their child to wander off and got hit in the forehead by someone swinging their overweight carry-on off the floor and into the overhead bin it would be similar (or if an FA open a gallery panel door the hit the girl).

Flighty wrote:
What is really sad is that the dog almost certainly has to be put down too. I can't think of a more clearly documented case where the animal has to be destroyed. The owner should be fined for animal cruelty too. And needless to say, the owner should be on a no-fly list for life for causing a child's injury on the airplane. It's sad when people behave in such a stupid and selfish way. Consequences are how people learn to do better.

If the article and Southwest's statement are in fact correct then this is not the case and the animal is not a danger. In fact it may be more on the child (who is 6 and can't be held truly responsible) and her parents. It also absolutely falls upon the dog owner to properly monitor her dog and if it is an issue when people approach, to keep a safe space around it (that alone would disqualify the dog from being brought on board).

Again I am not supporting the "ESA" abuse that happens everyday nor saying a dog biting someone is OK, I am just trying to look at what the real situation is.

Tugg
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There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
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Tugger
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Re: "support dog" bites child on Southwest Airlines

Thu Feb 22, 2018 8:56 pm

United787 wrote:
It should be small enough to fit into a carrier that is small enough to fit under the seat in front of you, period. It should remain inside it's cage for the duration of the trip.

For an ESA I absolutely agree. Of course some animals, like seeing eye dogs (which, yes, I know are not ESA's, not the same thing at all) and show dogs that someone has paid a seat for and properly followed all airline rules etc. may be too large.

In that case I think:

bgm wrote:
a muzzle

and diapers, whatever form of pet diaper thing that will prevent poop and pee from affecting anyone else. Make it a clear policy, well documented that both need to be designed for the animal, with manufacturer documentation showing such, provided before arriving to the airport and then verified by the gate personnel or it will not be allowed on board, and it will pass muster. Sure bring your ESA turkey... muzzle it, diaper it. Prove it.

And by the way, I am not a big fan of this solution either because some fool will then try to bring something with a baby diaper thrown on it and claim they met the requirement.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
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FA9295
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Re: "support dog" bites child on Southwest Airlines

Thu Feb 22, 2018 8:57 pm

shankly wrote:
I'm based in Cape Town and tempted to show up for my next flight back to London with a support Great White

Can't wait to see that aired on today's news... :lol:
 
ozark1
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Re: "support dog" bites child on Southwest Airlines

Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:36 pm

Jetsouth wrote:
I do not know why airlines do not designate certain seats on the plane as "support animal friendly" If you want to take a support animal on the planes, you can only sit in those seats. If you do not want to be anywhere near a support animal seat, you take a seat far away.

You cannot be serious. That would be impossible to accomplish. Even though they are out of hand (in the variety of animal accepted), they still are not terribly frequent. It's not the person without the animal that should have to move away. And what seats would be more appropriate than others? I would certainly not block bulkhead rows for them. Sorry, but if their animals cause problems then the entire idea is going to have to go back to the drawing board.
 
mcr
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Re: "support dog" bites child on Southwest Airlines

Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:40 pm

Kilopond wrote:
bgm wrote:
Yet another uniquely American problem...

Maybe a muzzle would stop this from happening again?


Exactly my thought!

Besides that, the US authorities could stop that pet anarchy and copy the bureaucracy (read: clear rules!) of other parts of the world. Here is how pet passports issued by Switzerland and the Netherlands look (random examples from wikipedia):



Pet passports are issued in Europe to facilitate the travel of pets that are microchipped, vaccinated, and certified healthy by a vet shortly before crossing borders - but they still travel in crates in the hold, or possibly if small enough in closed carriers that fit under the seat in front of the passenger (and they must stay closed from boarding to disembarkation). Thankfully the absurdity of untrained animals loose about the cabin hasn't reached us here yet. Genuine trained assistance dogs are permitted on board though - as an example, here's BA's policy which clarifies that "emotional support dogs" will be treated as domestic pets: https://www.britishairways.com/en-gb/in ... stance-dog
 
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iseeyyc
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Re: "support dog" bites child on Southwest Airlines

Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:41 pm

jetwet1 wrote:
we had a "support" dog take a bite out of a guide dog at one of our properties last week, thankfully the dog only needed stitches, also thankfully Metro took good care of explaining to the "support" dog owner that they were responsible for all costs incurred. We transported the guide dog to a vet we use for our animals in one of our security vehicles.


Curious to know more about this incident...

shankly wrote:
I'm based in Cape Town and tempted to show up for my next flight back to London with a support Great White


Don't show up with a bottle of water or you'll have to defend it with your life?
 
Kilopond
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Re: "support dog" bites child on Southwest Airlines

Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:11 pm

mcr wrote:
[...]Thankfully the absurdity of untrained animals loose about the cabin hasn't reached us here yet. Genuine trained assistance dogs are permitted on board though - as an example, here's BA's policy which clarifies that "emotional support dogs" will be treated as domestic pets: https://www.britishairways.com/en-gb/in ... stance-dog


That's exactly what I mean: there are clear rules and the required pet ID for chipped animals surely raises the threshold to commit an anarchistic public nuisance. At the same time, airlines would be hindered from any random (and often absurd) decisions.
 
workhorse
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Re: "support dog" bites child on Southwest Airlines

Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:32 pm

Oh, I see the PR campaign to prepare the ground for banning dogs from airplane cabins is on a roll. It's always an eye-opener to see how little empathy some people can have. Did it come to your mind that in a lot of cases the "support animal" thing is actually for the sake of the animal and not the owner?

Let me describe you a situation. I have a 4-years old golden retriever who has never caused any trouble to anyone. He loves life, he loves people and he loves me (well in this last case it's more than love, I am what makes his world go round, when I am there he's fine no matter what, when I'm not, he's sad and anxious no matter what). Unfortunately, he is epileptic. Thanks to a very strictly observed medication program (the meds have to given twice a day at very precise hours), we have it mostly under control, but there is no way in hell I put him alone into a cage that is going to be kicked, thrown, left for hours on the ramp in the cold, put for 10+ hours into a cargo hold where it's dark, sometimes freezing and full of frightening (for a dog) noises. And let's not even talk about all the cases where dog crates have been lost, loaded on a wrong flight, not loaded in time and then left waiting 24 hours until the next flight without anyone bothering to take the dog for a walk, not even giving it water...

When traveling within our country or even our continent I will happily drive (or take a train: dogs are allowed in trains in most of European countries) instead of dealing with all the hostility of which a lot of examples some of you guys show in these threads. But if, for work reasons, I have to cross an ocean, what do I do? Take a ship? There's no passenger ships between Europe and the Americas anymore. Fly private? It's $70,000. What do I do, tell me.
 
Flighty
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Re: "support dog" bites child on Southwest Airlines

Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:12 pm

workhorse wrote:
Oh, I see the PR campaign to prepare the ground for banning dogs from airplane cabins is on a roll. It's always an eye-opener to see how little empathy some people can have. Did it come to your mind that in a lot of cases the "support animal" thing is actually for the sake of the animal and not the owner?

Let me describe you a situation. I have a 4-years old golden retriever who has never caused any trouble to anyone. He loves life, he loves people and he loves me (well in this last case it's more than love, I am what makes his world go round, when I am there he's fine no matter what, when I'm not, he's sad and anxious no matter what). Unfortunately, he is epileptic. Thanks to a very strictly observed medication program (the meds have to given twice a day at very precise hours), we have it mostly under control, but there is no way in hell I put him alone into a cage that is going to be kicked, thrown, left for hours on the ramp in the cold, put for 10+ hours into a cargo hold where it's dark, sometimes freezing and full of frightening (for a dog) noises. And let's not even talk about all the cases where dog crates have been lost, loaded on a wrong flight, not loaded in time and then left waiting 24 hours until the next flight without anyone bothering to take the dog for a walk, not even giving it water...

When traveling within our country or even our continent I will happily drive (or take a train: dogs are allowed in trains in most of European countries) instead of dealing with all the hostility of which a lot of examples some of you guys show in these threads. But if, for work reasons, I have to cross an ocean, what do I do? Take a ship? There's no passenger ships between Europe and the Americas anymore. Fly private? It's $70,000. What do I do, tell me.


What if your gun needs your constant attention, so you can't bear to be apart from it? Same solution - stay home, or put it into a trusted storage place at home, then fly. If you must travel with it, fly private. If you must travel for your job with your gun on an airliner, you have made the decision to quit that job because you aren't able to follow society's rules. You aren't allowed to bring it onboard. Nobody wants your epileptic dog, or elephant, or blue whale, or tarantula on the airplane for 10 hours. So, they made a rule against it and you can't do it. Pretty simple.
 
vikkyvik
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Re: "support dog" bites child on Southwest Airlines

Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:19 pm

workhorse wrote:
What do I do, tell me.


Options:
1.) Ask a friend or family to watch him and give him his meds.
2.) Find a good pet-hotel or pet boarding place that will take care of him and give him his meds.
3.) Ask your vet for recommendations of places to have him stay during your absence.
I'm watching Jeopardy. The category is worst Madonna songs. "This one from 1987 is terrible".
 
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Re: "support dog" bites child on Southwest Airlines

Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:25 pm

workhorse wrote:
Oh, I see the PR campaign to prepare the ground for banning dogs from airplane cabins is on a roll. It's always an eye-opener to see how little empathy some people can have. Did it come to your mind that in a lot of cases the "support animal" thing is actually for the sake of the animal and not the owner?

Let me describe you a situation. I have a 4-years old golden retriever who has never caused any trouble to anyone. He loves life, he loves people and he loves me (well in this last case it's more than love, I am what makes his world go round, when I am there he's fine no matter what, when I'm not, he's sad and anxious no matter what). Unfortunately, he is epileptic. Thanks to a very strictly observed medication program (the meds have to given twice a day at very precise hours), we have it mostly under control, but there is no way in hell I put him alone into a cage that is going to be kicked, thrown, left for hours on the ramp in the cold, put for 10+ hours into a cargo hold where it's dark, sometimes freezing and full of frightening (for a dog) noises. And let's not even talk about all the cases where dog crates have been lost, loaded on a wrong flight, not loaded in time and then left waiting 24 hours until the next flight without anyone bothering to take the dog for a walk, not even giving it water...

When traveling within our country or even our continent I will happily drive (or take a train: dogs are allowed in trains in most of European countries) instead of dealing with all the hostility of which a lot of examples some of you guys show in these threads. But if, for work reasons, I have to cross an ocean, what do I do? Take a ship? There's no passenger ships between Europe and the Americas anymore. Fly private? It's $70,000. What do I do, tell me.


Board the dog or find a new job.

Why should other passengers in the tight confines of an aircraft have to deal with your problem?
 
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millionsofmiles
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Re: "support dog" bites child on Southwest Airlines

Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:28 pm

Biggest scam ever.

The sad thing is that, once the pendulum swings in the opposite direction, those who really need support animals will be restricted and limited by the need to enact restrictive legislation to address the sins of those who abused fhe privilege.

This is why we can't have nice things.
 
filipair
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Re: "support dog" bites child on Southwest Airlines

Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:29 pm

workhorse wrote:
Let me describe you a situation. I have a 4-years old golden retriever who has never caused any trouble to anyone. He loves life, he loves people and he loves me (well in this last case it's more than love, I am what makes his world go round, when I am there he's fine no matter what, when I'm not, he's sad and anxious no matter what). Unfortunately, he is epileptic. Thanks to a very strictly observed medication program (the meds have to given twice a day at very precise hours), we have it mostly under control, but there is no way in hell I put him alone into a cage that is going to be kicked, thrown, left for hours on the ramp in the cold, put for 10+ hours into a cargo hold where it's dark, sometimes freezing and full of frightening (for a dog) noises. And let's not even talk about all the cases where dog crates have been lost, loaded on a wrong flight, not loaded in time and then left waiting 24 hours until the next flight without anyone bothering to take the dog for a walk, not even giving it water...

When traveling within our country or even our continent I will happily drive (or take a train: dogs are allowed in trains in most of European countries) instead of dealing with all the hostility of which a lot of examples some of you guys show in these threads. But if, for work reasons, I have to cross an ocean, what do I do? Take a ship? There's no passenger ships between Europe and the Americas anymore. Fly private? It's $50,000. What do I do, tell me.


You tell your story to show that your dog should travel by airplane with you because your dog is sick and only you can care for it. Most of your fellow air travelers (and airlines) disagree that animals should travel in the cabin. Moreover, in the case of animals, air travel may actually be harmful for them. So perhaps you should reconsider your "need" to take your dog with you.

However, it sounds like this is what is stopping you from doing so:

"when I am there he's fine no matter what, when I'm not, he's sad and anxious no matter what"

This situation sounds like primarily an emotional dependence on the part of you and your dog, for which you should seek resolution without delay. You should not be the only person who can calm your anxious dog. Moreover, that dependence is not a valid reason to first burden your dog with travel and, in doing so, burden other travelers with your dog.

(Anxious) golden retrievers - and other animals which cannot fit underneath the seat in a closed carrier - simply do not belong in the passenger cabin of commercial airliners, as it is an enclosed space intended for humans. After addressing the above issue, you will see that it is perfectly reasonable and empathetic to leave your dog with a qualified caregiver during any of your extended travels and participate in air travel sans-dog.


workhorse wrote:
Did it come to your mind that in a lot of cases the "support animal" thing is actually for the sake of the animal and not the owner?


No, it does not occur to me, sorry. Support animals are for humans who cannot function without them. It doesn't work the other way around because you want it to. That said, if you decide to launch Puppy Airlines (where puppies and cuddly dogs roam the aisles - except during takeoff and landing of course) in the future, I'll gladly try it for the novelty :)
 
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millionsofmiles
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Re: "support dog" bites child on Southwest Airlines

Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:31 pm

workhorse wrote:
Oh, I see the PR campaign to prepare the ground for banning dogs from airplane cabins is on a roll. It's always an eye-opener to see how little empathy some people can have. Did it come to your mind that in a lot of cases the "support animal" thing is actually for the sake of the animal and not the owner?

Let me describe you a situation. I have a 4-years old golden retriever who has never caused any trouble to anyone. He loves life, he loves people and he loves me (well in this last case it's more than love, I am what makes his world go round, when I am there he's fine no matter what, when I'm not, he's sad and anxious no matter what). Unfortunately, he is epileptic. Thanks to a very strictly observed medication program (the meds have to given twice a day at very precise hours), we have it mostly under control, but there is no way in hell I put him alone into a cage that is going to be kicked, thrown, left for hours on the ramp in the cold, put for 10+ hours into a cargo hold where it's dark, sometimes freezing and full of frightening (for a dog) noises. And let's not even talk about all the cases where dog crates have been lost, loaded on a wrong flight, not loaded in time and then left waiting 24 hours until the next flight without anyone bothering to take the dog for a walk, not even giving it water...

When traveling within our country or even our continent I will happily drive (or take a train: dogs are allowed in trains in most of European countries) instead of dealing with all the hostility of which a lot of examples some of you guys show in these threads. But if, for work reasons, I have to cross an ocean, what do I do? Take a ship? There's no passenger ships between Europe and the Americas anymore. Fly private? It's $70,000. What do I do, tell me.


The support animal provisions of the law have to do with an animal supporting YOUR needs, not the other way around. You shouldn't get to pass your dog off as a support animal if he's the one with the problem.
 
nine4nine
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Re: "support dog" bites child on Southwest Airlines

Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:39 pm

workhorse wrote:
Oh, I see the PR campaign to prepare the ground for banning dogs from airplane cabins is on a roll. It's always an eye-opener to see how little empathy some people can have. Did it come to your mind that in a lot of cases the "support animal" thing is actually for the sake of the animal and not the owner?

Let me describe you a situation. I have a 4-years old golden retriever who has never caused any trouble to anyone. He loves life, he loves people and he loves me (well in this last case it's more than love, I am what makes his world go round, when I am there he's fine no matter what, when I'm not, he's sad and anxious no matter what). Unfortunately, he is epileptic. Thanks to a very strictly observed medication program (the meds have to given twice a day at very precise hours), we have it mostly under control, but there is no way in hell I put him alone into a cage that is going to be kicked, thrown, left for hours on the ramp in the cold, put for 10+ hours into a cargo hold where it's dark, sometimes freezing and full of frightening (for a dog) noises. And let's not even talk about all the cases where dog crates have been lost, loaded on a wrong flight, not loaded in time and then left waiting 24 hours until the next flight without anyone bothering to take the dog for a walk, not even giving it water...

When traveling within our country or even our continent I will happily drive (or take a train: dogs are allowed in trains in most of European countries) instead of dealing with all the hostility of which a lot of examples some of you guys show in these threads. But if, for work reasons, I have to cross an ocean, what do I do? Take a ship? There's no passenger ships between Europe and the Americas anymore. Fly private? It's $70,000. What do I do, tell me.



Um find a dog sitter, or look into a pet hotel. Many people are allergic to dog dander and paid a good chunk of money for the ticket only to be inconvieneced and uncomfortable because someone has some needy pet. I’ve had some spoiled little rich girl with her bulldog take a huge dump in the aisle two rows ahead of me and enduring the next 3 hours of smelling dog crap was quite infuriating. Your pets WILL survive a few days without you.
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Re: "support dog" bites child on Southwest Airlines

Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:56 pm

Kilopond wrote:
bgm wrote:
Yet another uniquely American problem...

Maybe a muzzle would stop this from happening again?


Exactly my thought!

Besides that, the US authorities could stop that pet anarchy and copy the bureaucracy (read: clear rules!) of other parts of the world. Here is how pet passports issued by Switzerland and the Netherlands look (random examples from wikipedia):

Image

Image

I'm ok with that.

I like JetBlue's rules:
1. Dog in a bag and shall remain in bag.
2. Only an adult may bring the dog.
3. Dog and bag weight under 25 lbs (12 kg)..
4. If there is a dog problem, dog never flies in cabin.
5. If there is a problem, adult never gets to bring on a dog (appeal process).
6. Pay $100 each way to fly the dog, no refunds on prepaid future flights if dog banned.

Late edit:. Seeing eye, police, fire, and rescue dogs fly free, out of bag, and a much higher weight limit. But you must submit paper on the dog being the right service dog. For example, a friend flies with a rescue dog (retired seeing eye dog too). No issues.

Lightsaber
Winter is coming.
 
questions
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Re: "support dog" bites child on Southwest Airlines

Fri Feb 23, 2018 12:00 am

workhorse wrote:
But if, for work reasons, I have to cross an ocean, what do I do? Take a ship? There's no passenger ships between Europe and the Americas anymore. Fly private? It's $70,000. What do I do, tell me.


What do you do? What do you do with your beloved dog during the flight? Where is your Golden Retriever going to sit? To lay down? Are you going to walk your pooch up and down the aisle(s) to get exercise? What are you going to do with passengers who are allergic to dogs*? And... what are you going to do when Rover has to take a big dump 7 hours into that 9 hour transoceanic flight?



*THIS may be the answer. If airlines stop serving peanuts on flights because one passenger is allergic, maybe we’ll start to hear the following preboarding announcement:
This is a preboarding announcement for passengers traveling on flight 771 to LAX. There is a passenger on this flight who is allergic to dogs. Any passenger planning to travel with a dog in the cabin, for any reason, will have to be re-booked on another flight.
 
nine4nine
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Re: "support dog" bites child on Southwest Airlines

Fri Feb 23, 2018 12:06 am

questions wrote:
workhorse wrote:
But if, for work reasons, I have to cross an ocean, what do I do? Take a ship? There's no passenger ships between Europe and the Americas anymore. Fly private? It's $70,000. What do I do, tell me.


What do you do? What do you do with your beloved dog during the flight? Where is your Golden Retriever going to sit? To lay down? Are you going to walk your pooch up and down the aisle(s) to get exercise? What are you going to do with passengers who are allergic to dogs*? And... what are you going to do when Rover has to take a big dump 7 hours into that 9 hour transoceanic flight?

*THIS may be the answer. If airlines stop serving peanuts on flights because one passenger is allergic, maybe we’ll start to hear the following preboarding announcement:
This is a preboarding announcement for passengers traveling on flight 771 to LAX. There is a passenger on this flight who is allergic to dogs. Any passenger planning to travel with a dog in the cabin, for any reason, will have to be re-booked on another flight.




Love it. Best post yet.
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mariner
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Re: "support dog" bites child on Southwest Airlines

Fri Feb 23, 2018 12:09 am

workhorse wrote:
What do I do, tell me.


If it's a serious question there are plenty of cargo boats that take passengers - here's one:

https://www.freightercruises.com/voyages.php

There are agencies devoted to just this, a Google search lists them.

For people, it's a wonderful way to travel, but I don't know how dogs feel about it - or how they feel about dogs, I imagine they're okay.

Separately, I've flown my dogs around the world. They travelled in the hold and they've always been fine. Air New Zealand leaves a light on for them - others may, I've never asked.

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Re: "support dog" bites child on Southwest Airlines

Fri Feb 23, 2018 12:19 am

Let me tell you all - this phenomenon is GAINING in intensity, not diminishing. People now come to the airport with HUGE dogs, selfishly expecting everyone ELSE to get off the planes or re-acommodate themselves to allow these big dogs their space. Today - two large retriever-type dogs for ONE person . Really?????? Last week - a 110lb Great Dane. Nice pooch, friendly dog. But where do you put a monster dog like this? And you can't say anything...........it's allowed. Required. Emotional Support. America is broken....self-entitled, selfish people do this. I don't for a second believe you need emotional support from a giant dog or two dogs at once. But you have to move everyone else out of the seats to accomodate them. It's not right.
..everything works out in the end.
 
LuigiGDL
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Re: "support dog" bites child on Southwest Airlines

Fri Feb 23, 2018 12:52 am

I have an honest question, please don’t laugh. But if a doctor can say that I need an emotional service animal to travel on an aircraft. Couldn’t the same doctor also prove that my wife or my mother is also needed by my side for my emotional health on the same aircraft? If the problem here is that some people need emotional support while they travel... Couldn’t that be better accomplished by a human? Rather than a dog or a snake or a peacock? And I am mostly certain that my wife wouldn’t take a dump on the aisle and also mostly certain that not too many other people would be allergic to her. So... Why can’t I just bring my wife for free if I prove that I need her emotional support for traveling?? Ok you can laugh. :)
 
smokeybandit
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Re: "support dog" bites child on Southwest Airlines

Fri Feb 23, 2018 1:12 am

Support dog. The new-age, politically correct term for "pet"
 
spacecadet
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Re: "support dog" bites child on Southwest Airlines

Fri Feb 23, 2018 1:27 am

workhorse wrote:
But if, for work reasons, I have to cross an ocean, what do I do? Take a ship? There's no passenger ships between Europe and the Americas anymore.


There most certainly are: http://www.cunard.com/cruise-search/boo ... &pg=1&dr=2

That's the most famous, but every cruise line offers transatlantic crossings.

Obviously not the most practical option for most people just looking to travel, but when you've got a unique pet situation like you seem to, you do what you have to do, right?
I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
 
mtnwest1979
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Re: "support dog" bites child on Southwest Airlines

Fri Feb 23, 2018 1:30 am

I say ban both animals and children!!
Riddle: Which lasts longer, a start-up airline or a start-up football league?
 
ltbewr
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Re: "support dog" bites child on Southwest Airlines

Fri Feb 23, 2018 1:43 am

The American ADA law has been so broadly interpreted beyond reason out of fear of our lawsuit crazy civil judicial structure so abuse happens and allowed. I also think a related reason for the growth in 'emotional support animals' is that it has become much more expensive and risky to transport your pet in cargo, many airlines won't even transport pet animals at certain times of the year due to fear of exposure to extreme cold/heat, once against due to fear of lawsuits. That may mean stretching the law to be able to travel with FiFi. I could see one key exemption to allow for 'emotional support' animals, in particular children (or even adults) with autism spectrum conditions so don't end up with a kid screaming and behaving badly like there was a recent discussion on at this site. Still, the USA does need to revise the ADA laws and related rules to reduce abuses but balance with those persons with genuine needs to have trained service animals aboard with them.

Airlines could have another opportunity for fees if persons want to bring their 'emotional support' pet on board. Have any non-service animal count as a 'full size carry on bag' so only allowing a purse/small bag so have to pay for checked baggage. Airlines could also charge a fee and deposit so if your emotional support dog does a 'deposit', part of your deposit would be fortified to pay for clean up or as in this case in the OP, to pay for costs to process paperwork and in part for the medical expenses from their behavior.
 
Passedv1
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Re: "support dog" bites child on Southwest Airlines

Fri Feb 23, 2018 4:12 am

The part that gets me and leaves me sympathy-less is that my daughter has moderately severe asthma that is usually fine but animal dander is one of her triggers. If one day she shows up sitting next to someone with an “emotional support animal” there “disability” trumps my daughter. Add to it the fact that 90% of these animals are a bunch of BS. If you are so emotionally distraught that you need an animal to travel, you should just stay home. Maybe even not leave your house.
 
questions
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Re: "support dog" bites child on Southwest Airlines

Fri Feb 23, 2018 4:25 am

Passedv1 wrote:
The part that gets me and leaves me sympathy-less is that my daughter has moderately severe asthma that is usually fine but animal dander is one of her triggers. If one day she shows up sitting next to someone with an “emotional support animal” there “disability” trumps my daughter. Add to it the fact that 90% of these animals are a bunch of BS. If you are so emotionally distraught that you need an animal to travel, you should just stay home. Maybe even not leave your house.


If airlines stop serving peanuts on flights because one passenger is allergic, maybe we’ll start to hear the following preboarding announcement:

This is a preboarding announcement for passengers traveling on flight 771 to LAX. There is a passenger on this flight who is allergic to dogs. Any passenger planning to travel with a dog in the cabin, for any reason, will have to be re-booked on another flight.
 
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Moose135
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Re: "support dog" bites child on Southwest Airlines

Fri Feb 23, 2018 4:38 am

Passedv1 wrote:
The part that gets me and leaves me sympathy-less is that my daughter has moderately severe asthma that is usually fine but animal dander is one of her triggers. If one day she shows up sitting next to someone with an “emotional support animal” there “disability” trumps my daughter.

What if one day she shows up sitting next to someone with a seeing-eye dog? She has the same problem with the dog, doesn't she?
KC-135 - Passing gas and taking names!
 
Blankbarcode
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Re: "support dog" bites child on Southwest Airlines

Fri Feb 23, 2018 4:39 am

Made this point previously, but maybe people wouldn't be abusing the system if the quality for animal transport wasn't so low. Stories of animals dying due to negligence, severe weather restrictions (though fairly justified), and just high costs have made even me think about the support animal ordeal. How else is one supposed to move to another country and take what is essentially their family with them?
 
spacecadet
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Re: "support dog" bites child on Southwest Airlines

Fri Feb 23, 2018 5:39 am

Blankbarcode wrote:
How else is one supposed to move to another country and take what is essentially their family with them?


First, not that many animals on planes are people moving to another country with their pets. I mean if you can show me a statistic that says this is common, I'd love to see it. Anecdotes don't count. Otherwise, I think it's safe to assume that 99.9% of "emotional support animals" on flights are *not* actually moving with their owners - they're just on vacation or some other kind of temporary trip. Maybe if somebody could prove that they were actually permanently moving overseas with their pet, then it wouldn't be such a problem to have them in the cabin because it would be relatively rare.

But second, I gave you one option for transport just a few replies earlier. I mean, how would you have done this 20 years ago, before pets in the cabin became common? But there are also plenty of pet transport services you can use that specialize in exactly this kind of thing. A simple Google search turns up many, many results: https://www.google.com/search?q=transpo ... +pets+over

It's kind of like asking how you're supposed to transport an animal across the USA if you can't fly them in the cabin of a passenger plane. I mean... ??? Drive, take a bus, take a train, use some kind of transport service... There are just many ways that people have been using for a long, long time. It's no different going overseas. It's like people have become so ridiculously accustomed to convenience for themselves that they've forgotten how to even do anything else for their pets.
I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
 
737MAX7
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Re: "support dog" bites child on Southwest Airlines

Fri Feb 23, 2018 6:02 am

98% of these ESA’s are a complete joke.
 
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Re: "support dog" bites child on Southwest Airlines

Fri Feb 23, 2018 7:29 am

Image
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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Re: "support dog" bites child on Southwest Airlines

Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:42 am

AWACSooner wrote:
shankly wrote:
I'm based in Cape Town and tempted to show up for my next flight back to London with a support Great White

With what water to hold him in? ;)

Just head north to the Transvaal and pick up your emotional support spitting cobra...hours of guaranteed fun on the plane. Just pass out goggles to the flight crew...

And hope Samuel L. Jackson isn't on your flight!
When wasn't America great?


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