Upstate New York Thread - 2018

SyracuseAvGeek · Tue Oct 30, 2018 1:14 pm

jworks158 wrote:
Don't forget, this Wednesday 10/31 AC will be operating it's last flights to ROC. The last arrival is AC 7288 arriving around 3pm, and the last departure is AC 7291 and it is scheduled to depart at 3:30pm.

Same goes for SYR unfortunately.

WeatherPilot · Tue Oct 30, 2018 2:07 pm

Has anyone been to SYR lately? Is it looking like they’re going to be finished tomorrow? Last time I was there the road out front wasn’t even paved yet.

DCA-ROCguy · Tue Oct 30, 2018 2:15 pm

jworks158 wrote:
Don't forget, this Wednesday 10/31 AC will be operating it's last flights to ROC. The last arrival is AC 7288 arriving around 3pm, and the last departure is AC 7291 and it is scheduled to depart at 3:30pm.

I'll note here my occasional gripe that the industry is really failing medium- and small- size markets by not coming out with new-generation 19-37-ish seat aircraft to ensure that both thinner routes and smaller markets stay connected. Now, lots of Canada will be a double-connect for ROC, SYR, and MDT. There need to be smaller aircraft!

Thank you ROCDLFAN for posting the B6 schedule. Glad to see that both ROC and SYR are up to four dailies. I remember in the pre-financial crash days when B6 was running five daily A320's on ROC-JFK!

As a Bills fan, I bear much suffering this time of year, as usual (though the hope of Josh Allen eventually healing gives hope). But I'm enjoying all the photos on the Bills website every travel-game week showing the gold-livery Atlas Air 744 at BUF. Love seeing a passenger 744 at any Upstate airport. The Queen of the Skies lives!!

Jim

SyracuseAvGeek · Tue Oct 30, 2018 2:23 pm

WeatherPilot wrote:
Has anyone been to SYR lately? Is it looking like they’re going to be finished tomorrow? Last time I was there the road out front wasn’t even paved yet.

The grand opening is scheduled for November 1st, too bad that day is the first day of not having a scheduled international flight.

SyracuseAvGeek · Tue Oct 30, 2018 2:36 pm

I wish Air Canada would consider restarting service to at least one airport in upstate, SYR would make sense as it’s centrally located. But it probably won’t happen for a long time if ever.

TucsonDave · Tue Oct 30, 2018 5:19 pm

SyracuseAvGeek wrote:
I wish Air Canada would consider restarting service to at least one airport in upstate, SYR would make sense as it’s centrally located. But it probably won’t happen for a long time if ever.

Central location should have been a winning argument (but far from the only argument) for Southwest to start SYR. I don't blame Southwest as much as I blame the private and public leadership in CNY for not recognizing the effect Southwest's presence would have had in CNY over the years. I know the sun doesn't shine much in CNY, but it would have been nice if the powers that be had had their collective heads seeking sunshine on this topic, if you get my drift.

DCA-ROCguy · Tue Oct 30, 2018 5:29 pm

SyracuseAvGeek wrote:
I wish Air Canada would consider restarting service to at least one airport in upstate, SYR would make sense as it’s centrally located. But it probably won’t happen for a long time if ever.

From what I can tell, the bean counters in Montreal must have decided that transitioning the three markets from 2-4 B1900's per day to say 1-2 CRJ-200's (which appeared in Rochester on substitution) was not the best use of the planes. (If I remember right, AC is retiring or reducing Dash 8's, too, so those wouldn't be available, either.) I'm kind of surprised by that, but there it is.

Again, the industry is failing medium- and small-size markets by not producing next-gen 19-37-ish seat planes to succeed B1900's and Dash 8's. There needs to be an economic option for thinner routes like these.

Jim

WeatherPilot · Tue Oct 30, 2018 5:59 pm

SyracuseAvGeek wrote:
I wish Air Canada would consider restarting service to at least one airport in upstate, SYR would make sense as it’s centrally located. But it probably won’t happen for a long time if ever.

If AC can do three daily to CLE with a CRJ100/200 they can surely make one or two daily work at SYR.

SyracuseAvGeek · Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:13 pm

WeatherPilot wrote:
SyracuseAvGeek wrote:
I wish Air Canada would consider restarting service to at least one airport in upstate, SYR would make sense as it’s centrally located. But it probably won’t happen for a long time if ever.

If AC can do three daily to CLE with a CRJ100/200 they can surely make one or two daily work at SYR.

I’m sure they could, but the problem is that YYZ is becoming a slot controlled airport and I don’t think they would use it on SYR.

teneriffe77 · Tue Oct 30, 2018 11:33 pm

As far as SYR is concerned their new history exhibit which is going to be located below the security checkpoint will be done by 11/10 as that's when the Onondaga Historical Association which put the exhibit together is having a formal gala to celebrate the opening of that and the renovation of the airport. I know cause I'm going to it

MO11 · Wed Oct 31, 2018 1:17 am

WeatherPilot wrote:
SyracuseAvGeek wrote:
I wish Air Canada would consider restarting service to at least one airport in upstate, SYR would make sense as it’s centrally located. But it probably won’t happen for a long time if ever.

If AC can do three daily to CLE with a CRJ100/200 they can surely make one or two daily work at SYR.

Bring back Mall Airways.

cosyr · Wed Oct 31, 2018 1:53 am

TucsonDave wrote:
SyracuseAvGeek wrote:
I wish Air Canada would consider restarting service to at least one airport in upstate, SYR would make sense as it’s centrally located. But it probably won’t happen for a long time if ever.

Central location should have been a winning argument (but far from the only argument) for Southwest to start SYR. I don't blame Southwest as much as I blame the private and public leadership in CNY for not recognizing the effect Southwest's presence would have had in CNY over the years. I know the sun doesn't shine much in CNY, but it would have been nice if the powers that be had had their collective heads seeking sunshine on this topic, if you get my drift.

Having interned at the SYR airport and being acquainted with current and former leadership, I can say that SYR has sought WN for decades. They flew to ALB and BUF, and as far as they were concerned, everything else was within close enough driving distance of either. If it weren't for the merger with FL, WN probably wouldn't be any closer to starting ROC. I'm still hopeful that WN will grow to the point that SYR will just be the next biggest city in the US that they don't fly to, and will have no choice but to fly there or stop growing. But it is WN who makes the call, not the city or the airport.

teneriffe77 · Wed Oct 31, 2018 2:50 am

I know SYR doesn't have WN but they have been making progress w/ Allegiant and Frontier over the last couple years and I know some people who have taken advantage of those flights. BTW it's interesting how UPS serves SYR but not ROC

jplatts · Wed Oct 31, 2018 2:50 am

cosyr wrote:
Having interned at the SYR airport and being acquainted with current and former leadership, I can say that SYR has sought WN for decades. They flew to ALB and BUF, and as far as they were concerned, everything else was within close enough driving distance of either. If it weren't for the merger with FL, WN probably wouldn't be any closer to starting ROC. I'm still hopeful that WN will grow to the point that SYR will just be the next biggest city in the US that they don't fly to, and will have no choice but to fly there or stop growing. But it is WN who makes the call, not the city or the airport.

There are some U.S. metro areas east of the Mississippi larger than the Syracuse metro area that are not currently served by WN, including the following:

Knoxville, TN
Allentown/Bethlehem/Easton, PA
Baton Rouge, LA
Columbia, SC
Sarasota, FL
Dayton, OH (previously served by WN)
Greensboro/Winston-Salem, NC
Lakeland, FL

I think that WN entering TYS, CAE, and/or GSO might possibly be a higher priority than WN entering SYR since TYS, CAE, and GSO are located in larger U.S. metropolitan areas than SYR is. While Sarasota and Lakeland are located in separate metropolitan areas from Tampa/St. Petersburg, Sarasota and Lakeland are both near TPA. While Greater Dayton is bigger than the Syracuse metro area, WN is unlikely to reenter DAY anytime soon with WN having pulled out of DAY last year.

TucsonDave · Wed Oct 31, 2018 12:16 pm

jplatts wrote:
cosyr wrote:
Having interned at the SYR airport and being acquainted with current and former leadership, I can say that SYR has sought WN for decades. They flew to ALB and BUF, and as far as they were concerned, everything else was within close enough driving distance of either. If it weren't for the merger with FL, WN probably wouldn't be any closer to starting ROC. I'm still hopeful that WN will grow to the point that SYR will just be the next biggest city in the US that they don't fly to, and will have no choice but to fly there or stop growing. But it is WN who makes the call, not the city or the airport.

There are some U.S. metro areas east of the Mississippi larger than the Syracuse metro area that are not currently served by WN, including the following:
Knoxville, TN
Allentown/Bethlehem/Easton, PA
Baton Rouge, LA
Columbia, SC
Sarasota, FL
Dayton, OH (previously served by WN)
Greensboro/Winston-Salem, NC
Lakeland, FL

I think that WN entering TYS, CAE, and/or GSO might possibly be a higher priority than WN entering SYR since TYS, CAE, and GSO are located in larger U.S. metropolitan areas than SYR is. While Sarasota and Lakeland are located in separate metropolitan areas from Tampa/St. Petersburg, Sarasota and Lakeland are both near TPA. While Greater Dayton is bigger than the Syracuse metro area, WN is unlikely to reenter DAY anytime soon with WN having pulled out of DAY last year.

I would point out that while the population of the three-county Syracuse Metro area is only around 700,000, the more important figure is the catchment area population. The SYR metro area does not include the Auburn-Cortland-Ithaca area. Nor does it include Utica-Rome. Nor does it include Watertown-Fort Drum-St. Lawrence County. Nor does it include Kingston-Cornwall and even Ottawa. Nor does it include the Triple Cities area. SYR has a significant population outside the official metro area but well within the catchment area. Southwest should have been in SYR long ago.

jworks158 · Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:28 pm

Governor Cuomo is currently at the Grand Opening of "The New Rochester Airport"
https://twitter.com/News_8/status/1057649825167093761
https://twitter.com/ROCAirport/status/1 ... 5180634112

I will be heading over their later to see the last AC flight, but I will also report back on the final renovation updates!

WeatherPilot · Wed Oct 31, 2018 6:17 pm

I don't want to bring politics into this thread and I know everyone is excited for all the airport updates but it's too easy to see why Cuomo required all the renovations to be finished this week.

BUFJACK10 · Wed Oct 31, 2018 6:39 pm

WeatherPilot wrote:
I don't want to bring politics into this thread and I know everyone is excited for all the airport updates but it's too easy to see why Cuomo required all the renovations to be finished this week.

This forum is no place for politics, but to be honest, that is exactly what you wanted. You could have commented in the non aviation forum.

Congratulations to ROC and SYR our neighbors to the east on your new terminals and enhancing the image of upstate aviation.

WeatherPilot · Wed Oct 31, 2018 6:57 pm

BUFJACK10 wrote:
WeatherPilot wrote:
I don't want to bring politics into this thread and I know everyone is excited for all the airport updates but it's too easy to see why Cuomo required all the renovations to be finished this week.

This forum is no place for politics, but to be honest, that is exactly what you wanted. You could have commented in the non aviation forum.

Congratulations to ROC and SYR our neighbors to the east on your new terminals and enhancing the image of upstate aviation.

There's politics in a lot of threads. If you don't like it report it and have the mods remove. I don't care. I was just making an observation.

SyracuseAvGeek · Wed Oct 31, 2018 8:58 pm

EAS contracts are up for renewal at Ogdensburg and Massena . Airlines that have submitted proposals include Silver, SkyWest, boutique, and Cape Air . You can now comment on the proposals on Regulations.gov
There are some very interesting proposals in the mix, including some triangle routes, I haven’t seen a triangle route in upstate New York in over 10years, the last triangle route I remember is Big Sky with Plattsburgh and Saranac Lake.

SkyWest (United) - nonstops to Chicago and Washington D.C.
Silver - Boston
Boutique- Boston and maybe Baltimore
Cape Air - Boston

teneriffe77 · Thu Nov 01, 2018 2:58 am

I was at SYR today and the renovations were almost finished. It certainly feels a lot more open than it used to although I wish they hadn't moved the 727 cockpit and the fuselage section to opposite ends of the terminal. They were working on the new aviation history exhibit and it looks good although iI did notice a few errors and I pointed them out to some of the staff.

jworks158 · Thu Nov 01, 2018 4:12 am

jworks158 wrote:
Governor Cuomo is currently at the Grand Opening of "The New Rochester Airport"
https://twitter.com/News_8/status/1057649825167093761
https://twitter.com/ROCAirport/status/1 ... 5180634112

I will be heading over their later to see the last AC flight, but I will also report back on the final renovation updates!

Sorry it took so long, but I have compiled all of my pictures and videos from today into a thread of 8 tweets.
These include images of C-GORN arriving Rwy 22. Continuing on to show a video of startup, and taxi of AC7291.
It continues to highlight the canopy and the new arrivals area. I can't believe the progress they made in the last two weeks! However that's not to say there isn't a little bit of work left. Lastly I have linked to Cheryl Difinolo's twitter page which posted images of the strong museum of play exhibits.

https://twitter.com/theOrangetechie/sta ... 8863292419

SyracuseAvGeek · Thu Nov 01, 2018 11:24 am

Another thread talking about the EAS contracts in both Ogdensburg and Massena:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1407479&p=20827677#p20827677

WeatherPilot · Sat Nov 03, 2018 12:06 am

I'm wondering if the SYR airport authority now with a clean and renovated airport finally takes their collective head out of their *** and lowers their fees as well to attract WN. SYR has to be one of the larger cities still unserved by WN. If WN won't fly to SYR because of the proximity to it's other stations then why don't they entice SYR to lower their fees to move ROC operations to SYR? No offense to ROC fans but BUF, SYR and ALB are almost equidistant from each other, so wouldn't it behoove WN to move to SYR? Fliers in ROC then have both BUF and SYR to catch WN.

TucsonDave · Sat Nov 03, 2018 12:20 am

WeatherPilot wrote:
I'm wondering if the SYR airport authority now with a clean and renovated airport finally takes their collective head out of their *** and lowers their fees as well to attract WN. SYR has to be one of the larger cities still unserved by WN. If WN won't fly to SYR because of the proximity to it's other stations then why don't they entice SYR to lower their fees to move ROC operations to SYR? No offense to ROC fans but BUF, SYR and ALB are almost equidistant from each other, so wouldn't it behoove WN to move to SYR? Fliers in ROC then have both BUF and SYR to catch WN.

And with Air Canada blowing town the day before the dedication ceremonies, WN now has a gate waiting for it, with another gate across the hall.

MO11 · Sat Nov 03, 2018 1:18 am

WeatherPilot wrote:
I'm wondering if the SYR airport authority now with a clean and renovated airport finally takes their collective head out of their *** and lowers their fees as well to attract WN. SYR has to be one of the larger cities still unserved by WN. If WN won't fly to SYR because of the proximity to it's other stations then why don't they entice SYR to lower their fees to move ROC operations to SYR? No offense to ROC fans but BUF, SYR and ALB are almost equidistant from each other, so wouldn't it behoove WN to move to SYR? Fliers in ROC then have both BUF and SYR to catch WN.

Nobody's going to drive from ROC to SYR or BUF just to fly Southwest.

jworks158 · Sat Nov 03, 2018 1:22 am

MO11 wrote:
WeatherPilot wrote:
I'm wondering if the SYR airport authority now with a clean and renovated airport finally takes their collective head out of their *** and lowers their fees as well to attract WN. SYR has to be one of the larger cities still unserved by WN. If WN won't fly to SYR because of the proximity to it's other stations then why don't they entice SYR to lower their fees to move ROC operations to SYR? No offense to ROC fans but BUF, SYR and ALB are almost equidistant from each other, so wouldn't it behoove WN to move to SYR? Fliers in ROC then have both BUF and SYR to catch WN.

Nobody's going to drive from ROC to SYR or BUF just to fly Southwest.

Though this would open the door for Jetblue to pick up the slack....

WeatherPilot · Sat Nov 03, 2018 1:30 am

MO11 wrote:

Nobody's going to drive from ROC to SYR or BUF just to fly Southwest.

People from SYR drive to ROC and ALB all the time to catch WN. If WN moved to SYR it would be a shorter drive for ROC area fliers to drive to either BUF or SYR than for SYR area fliers to have to drive to ALB or ROC/BUF and also give WN a larger catchment area of Upstate NY.

DCA-ROCguy · Sat Nov 03, 2018 1:49 am

Driving SYR-ROC is the same length as driving ROC-SYR, unless there's a rip in the time-space continuum along the Thruway that I don't know about....

WN clearly thinks, as AirTran thought, Rochester is a more profitable location than Syracuse. I'm still surprised that Southwest isn't in all four major Upstate markets, but given three, they clearly see Rochester as the more profitable.

Does a day go by on here without someone dogging-by-implication on Rochester or wanting to take our air service? This thread gets really tiresome, and it's supposed to be here to discuss Upstate aviation. I'm sorry Southwest isn't in all four cities. I really am. Yes, I understand folks in Syracuse wanting WN. But I'll bite back when anyone advocates taking our air service.

Jim

MO11 · Sat Nov 03, 2018 2:02 am

WeatherPilot wrote:
MO11 wrote:

Nobody's going to drive from ROC to SYR or BUF just to fly Southwest.

People from SYR drive to ROC and ALB all the time to catch WN. If WN moved to SYR it would be a shorter drive for ROC area fliers to drive to either BUF or SYR than for SYR area fliers to have to drive to ALB or ROC/BUF and also give WN a larger catchment area of Upstate NY.

I don't understand why. People drive ridiculous distances to get $29 fares on Allegiant and the like. But Southwest fares are on par with the other major carriers so that hour++ drive isn't worth the trouble. If Southwest wanted to be in SYR, it would be there already.

SyracuseAvGeek · Sat Nov 03, 2018 3:01 am

TucsonDave wrote:
WeatherPilot wrote:
I'm wondering if the SYR airport authority now with a clean and renovated airport finally takes their collective head out of their *** and lowers their fees as well to attract WN. SYR has to be one of the larger cities still unserved by WN. If WN won't fly to SYR because of the proximity to it's other stations then why don't they entice SYR to lower their fees to move ROC operations to SYR? No offense to ROC fans but BUF, SYR and ALB are almost equidistant from each other, so wouldn't it behoove WN to move to SYR? Fliers in ROC then have both BUF and SYR to catch WN.

And with Air Canada blowing town the day before the dedication ceremonies, WN now has a gate waiting for it, with another gate across the hall.

I’m response to them now having a gate because of Air Canada being gone, that gate is not that big and can’t support an aircraft with that large of a wing span. The reason Air Canada left is because the next smallest aircraft (Dash 8) has a wingspan of ~90ft and they couldn’t fit that wingspan into that corner gate and the CRJ200 which has a wing span of 70ft is the largest thing that can fit at that corner gate. The only thing that would go there is another Beechcraft or CRJ/ERJ with a wingspan of less than or around 70ft .

cosyr · Sat Nov 03, 2018 1:37 pm

SyracuseAvGeek wrote:
TucsonDave wrote:
WeatherPilot wrote:
I'm wondering if the SYR airport authority now with a clean and renovated airport finally takes their collective head out of their *** and lowers their fees as well to attract WN. SYR has to be one of the larger cities still unserved by WN. If WN won't fly to SYR because of the proximity to it's other stations then why don't they entice SYR to lower their fees to move ROC operations to SYR? No offense to ROC fans but BUF, SYR and ALB are almost equidistant from each other, so wouldn't it behoove WN to move to SYR? Fliers in ROC then have both BUF and SYR to catch WN.

And with Air Canada blowing town the day before the dedication ceremonies, WN now has a gate waiting for it, with another gate across the hall.

I’m response to them now having a gate because of Air Canada being gone, that gate is not that big and can’t support an aircraft with that large of a wing span. The reason Air Canada left is because the next smallest aircraft (Dash 8) has a wingspan of ~90ft and they couldn’t fit that wingspan into that corner gate and the CRJ200 which has a wing span of 70ft is the largest thing that can fit at that corner gate. The only thing that would go there is another Beechcraft or CRJ/ERJ with a wingspan of less than or around 70ft .

In the middle of the day, when AC's daytime flight came in, there was never a plane in the next gate. And if SYR wanted to keep AC, if that were really the reason, they could reopen the old lower level UA gate on the north concourse. In fact, doesn't the city own gate 20? I don't think the size of gate is the reason AC is leaving. I don't know if flights were borderline profitable with the 1900's, but I just think AC doesn't think they can make them profitable with a larger aircraft, or at least not as profitable as the other routes those planes are currently flying. ROC and SYR are not EWR or LAX. Gate space can be figured out if a new airline wants to fly there. Back when B6 was starting up, US was squatting on gates at SYR, so they created 15, and it is still there, unused.

Buffalomatt1027 · Sat Nov 03, 2018 2:22 pm

WeatherPilot wrote:
MO11 wrote:

Nobody's going to drive from ROC to SYR or BUF just to fly Southwest.

People from SYR drive to ROC and ALB all the time to catch WN. If WN moved to SYR it would be a shorter drive for ROC area fliers to drive to either BUF or SYR than for SYR area fliers to have to drive to ALB or ROC/BUF and also give WN a larger catchment area of Upstate NY.

This is true ..... people in ROC come to Buffalo all the time to fly out. For some reason (Most likely due to less daily flights) ROC is more expensive to fly out of.

But you would like that SYR would be more centralized over ROC. More catchment area wise. BUF / ROC being an hour away airport wise doesnt make much sense.

ROCDLFAN · Sat Nov 03, 2018 6:23 pm

DCA-ROCguy wrote:
Driving SYR-ROC is the same length as driving ROC-SYR, unless there's a rip in the time-space continuum along the Thruway that I don't know about....

WN clearly thinks, as AirTran thought, Rochester is a more profitable location than Syracuse. I'm still surprised that Southwest isn't in all four major Upstate markets, but given three, they clearly see Rochester as the more profitable.

Does a day go by on here without someone dogging-by-implication on Rochester or wanting to take our air service? This thread gets really tiresome, and it's supposed to be here to discuss Upstate aviation. I'm sorry Southwest isn't in all four cities. I really am. Yes, I understand folks in Syracuse wanting WN. But I'll bite back when anyone advocates taking our air service.

Jim

This. Exactly this. I’m not sure how many times this is going to be beaten to death, and I’ve said it before- it’s just getting redundant. Air Canada’s gate space was not something that was stopping WN from coming to SYR. If WN wanted SYR, they would have already entered the market years ago before ROC was even a thought. ROC has only been open since 2014 for WN, they had plenty of years of it being just BUF and ALB where if they wanted to they could add the market in the middle. It’s not an important market for them, simple as that.

And I’m sorry to all the SYR fans, but WN is not going to close down ROC just to move to SYR. That would serve absolutely no purpose whatsoever. Like DCA-ROCguy said, I’m sorry their not in all 4 cities, but it’s just not how it’s going to work in WN’s eyes.

WeatherPilot · Sat Nov 03, 2018 8:00 pm

ROCDLFAN wrote:
I’m not sure how many times this is going to be beaten to death, and I’ve said it before- it’s just getting redundant. Air Canada’s gate space was not something that was stopping WN from coming to SYR. If WN wanted SYR, they would have already entered the market years ago before ROC was even a thought. ROC has only been open since 2014 for WN, they had plenty of years of it being just BUF and ALB where if they wanted to they could add the market in the middle. It’s not an important market for them, simple as that.

And I’m sorry to all the SYR fans, but WN is not going to close down ROC just to move to SYR. That would serve absolutely no purpose whatsoever. Like DCA-ROCguy said, I’m sorry their not in all 4 cities, but it’s just not how it’s going to work in WN’s eyes.

WN serving ROC was only a result of WN’s takeover of AirTran. If that had never happened could you honestly say that ROC wouldn’t be in the same position as SYR trying to get WN service to this day?

cosyr · Sat Nov 03, 2018 8:38 pm

WeatherPilot wrote:
ROCDLFAN wrote:
I’m not sure how many times this is going to be beaten to death, and I’ve said it before- it’s just getting redundant. Air Canada’s gate space was not something that was stopping WN from coming to SYR. If WN wanted SYR, they would have already entered the market years ago before ROC was even a thought. ROC has only been open since 2014 for WN, they had plenty of years of it being just BUF and ALB where if they wanted to they could add the market in the middle. It’s not an important market for them, simple as that.

And I’m sorry to all the SYR fans, but WN is not going to close down ROC just to move to SYR. That would serve absolutely no purpose whatsoever. Like DCA-ROCguy said, I’m sorry their not in all 4 cities, but it’s just not how it’s going to work in WN’s eyes.

WN serving ROC was only a result of WN’s takeover of AirTran. If that had never happened could you honestly say that ROC wouldn’t be in the same position as SYR trying to get WN service to this day?

Agreed, but I do think that WN will serve SYR, question is will it be 5 year from now, or 20 years. Eventually, they will run out of markets larger than SYR to serve and if they want to keep growing, they will have to start a new city or become a different airline that flies bigger planes to other continents. Here's their route map from 1998 http://www.departedflights.com/WN070698.html

20 years ago they didn't fly to the state of NY. They didn't fly to DEN, BOS, ATL, LGA, EWR, PHL, PIT, MSP, MKL and they certainly didn't fly to BUF or ALB. There are still plenty of markets that WN can and will expand to. I have no doubt in my mind that they have explored service to SYR, probably multiple times, and eventually when they have the choice between a 10th frequency a day on some other route or starting SYR, they'll pick SYR...just don't get excited about it being in 2019.

TucsonDave · Sat Nov 03, 2018 11:51 pm

ROCDLFAN wrote:
DCA-ROCguy wrote:
Driving SYR-ROC is the same length as driving ROC-SYR, unless there's a rip in the time-space continuum along the Thruway that I don't know about....

WN clearly thinks, as AirTran thought, Rochester is a more profitable location than Syracuse. I'm still surprised that Southwest isn't in all four major Upstate markets, but given three, they clearly see Rochester as the more profitable.

Does a day go by on here without someone dogging-by-implication on Rochester or wanting to take our air service? This thread gets really tiresome, and it's supposed to be here to discuss Upstate aviation. I'm sorry Southwest isn't in all four cities. I really am. Yes, I understand folks in Syracuse wanting WN. But I'll bite back when anyone advocates taking our air service.

Jim

This. Exactly this. I’m not sure how many times this is going to be beaten to death, and I’ve said it before- it’s just getting redundant. Air Canada’s gate space was not something that was stopping WN from coming to SYR. If WN wanted SYR, they would have already entered the market years ago before ROC was even a thought. ROC has only been open since 2014 for WN, they had plenty of years of it being just BUF and ALB where if they wanted to they could add the market in the middle. It’s not an important market for them, simple as that.

And I’m sorry to all the SYR fans, but WN is not going to close down ROC just to move to SYR. That would serve absolutely no purpose whatsoever. Like DCA-ROCguy said, I’m sorry their not in all 4 cities, but it’s just not how it’s going to work in WN’s eyes.

Save the condescending rhetoric, guys (i.e., "tiresome" and "redundant.)

" I haven't called for WN to leave ROC. RIC has a catchment area, but so does SYR, and I contend both could support WN well. Sorry to disappoint you, but I'm not going anywhere. If my posts annoy you, ignore them by all means.

'

TucsonDave · Sat Nov 03, 2018 11:58 pm

TucsonDave wrote:
ROCDLFAN wrote:
DCA-ROCguy wrote:
Driving SYR-ROC is the same length as driving ROC-SYR, unless there's a rip in the time-space continuum along the Thruway that I don't know about....

WN clearly thinks, as AirTran thought, Rochester is a more profitable location than Syracuse. I'm still surprised that Southwest isn't in all four major Upstate markets, but given three, they clearly see Rochester as the more profitable.

Does a day go by on here without someone dogging-by-implication on Rochester or wanting to take our air service? This thread gets really tiresome, and it's supposed to be here to discuss Upstate aviation. I'm sorry Southwest isn't in all four cities. I really am. Yes, I understand folks in Syracuse wanting WN. But I'll bite back when anyone advocates taking our air service.

Jim

This. Exactly this. I’m not sure how many times this is going to be beaten to death, and I’ve said it before- it’s just getting redundant. Air Canada’s gate space was not something that was stopping WN from coming to SYR. If WN wanted SYR, they would have already entered the market years ago before ROC was even a thought. ROC has only been open since 2014 for WN, they had plenty of years of it being just BUF and ALB where if they wanted to they could add the market in the middle. It’s not an important market for them, simple as that.

And I’m sorry to all the SYR fans, but WN is not going to close down ROC just to move to SYR. That would serve absolutely no purpose whatsoever. Like DCA-ROCguy said, I’m sorry their not in all 4 cities, but it’s just not how it’s going to work in WN’s eyes.

Save the condescending rhetoric, guys (i.e., "tiresome" and "redundant.)

" I haven't called for WN to leave ROC. RIC has a catchment area, but so does SYR, and I contend both could support WN well. Sorry to disappoint you, but I'm not going anywhere. If my posts annoy you, ignore them by all means.
Obviously, I meant to say ROC has a catchment area. On the other hand, we often fly to/from RIC, which has limited WN service through ATL, and we wish they had more service to the heartland. RIC had a fine facility,and they will soon be adding 6 gates in Terminal A.

'

BUFJACK10 · Sun Nov 04, 2018 12:26 am

ROCDLFAN wrote:
DCA-ROCguy wrote:
Driving SYR-ROC is the same length as driving ROC-SYR, unless there's a rip in the time-space continuum along the Thruway that I don't know about....

WN clearly thinks, as AirTran thought, Rochester is a more profitable location than Syracuse. I'm still surprised that Southwest isn't in all four major Upstate markets, but given three, they clearly see Rochester as the more profitable.

Does a day go by on here without someone dogging-by-implication on Rochester or wanting to take our air service? This thread gets really tiresome, and it's supposed to be here to discuss Upstate aviation. I'm sorry Southwest isn't in all four cities. I really am. Yes, I understand folks in Syracuse wanting WN. But I'll bite back when anyone advocates taking our air service.

Jim

This. Exactly this. I’m not sure how many times this is going to be beaten to death, and I’ve said it before- it’s just getting redundant. Air Canada’s gate space was not something that was stopping WN from coming to SYR. If WN wanted SYR, they would have already entered the market years ago before ROC was even a thought. ROC has only been open since 2014 for WN, they had plenty of years of it being just BUF and ALB where if they wanted to they could add the market in the middle. It’s not an important market for them, simple as that.

And I’m sorry to all the SYR fans, but WN is not going to close down ROC just to move to SYR. That would serve absolutely no purpose whatsoever. Like DCA-ROCguy said, I’m sorry their not in all 4 cities, but it’s just not how it’s going to work in WN’s eyes.

When WN began serving BUF and ALB they were clearly the price leader in part because of their successful fuel hedging programs which enabled them to draw passengers from the legacies and create a base of passengers who were attracted by low fares and nonstop flights to desirable leisure locations. When their fuel hedges expired they weren't able to maintain the low fares the famous "Southwest Effect" was noted for. People would gladly drive anywhere from 1-2 hours to save a pretty good amount of money and take a family vacation they may not otherwise be able to afford. They chose BUF and ALB because they felt they had bracketed the NYS Thruway and therefore covered the ROC and SYR market. I remember a few years in a row where we were able to take a day trip to Tampa to catch a Bills Bucs game because of the low fares.

BUF also attracted Canadians and NW Pennsylvania and ALB had Western MA and Northern NYS. This was the analysis written in a Business Publication not long after they began service. Loyal WN customers have been known to travel to ROC for flights, so it goes both ways

Now their business model appears to have adapted to the market a bit no longer being able to offer the low fares they became famous for but now compete quite well on offering nonstop flights and good customer service and assign the right airplane based on demand with their 737 and 738. In many instances they are more expensive than the legacies. People will pay for the convenience of not changing planes in EWR, ATL, DCA and ORD.

Time will tell if they ever decide to serve SYR, they are well managed and very adaptable to market conditions and in all probability constantly analyze new opportunities.

jworks158 · Tue Nov 13, 2018 5:45 pm

A new jetblue special livery returned from the paintshop today! Flightradar24 just tweeted that it will be headed to BUF and ROC tomorrow! It is N809JB

WeatherPilot · Tue Nov 13, 2018 6:32 pm

G4 announced new routes today. Among them is SYR-SRQ starting on April 3rd next year. Also returning on G4 is SYR-MYR on May 16th and SYR-BNA on March 1st.

F9 also extended their schedule to August. SYR-DEN returns on May 1st, SYR-RDU on May 3rd and SYR-ORD looks to have been scrapped.

SyracuseAvGeek · Tue Nov 13, 2018 6:49 pm

jworks158 wrote:
A new jetblue special livery returned from the paintshop today! Flightradar24 just tweeted that it will be headed to BUF and ROC tomorrow! It is N809JB

Close, but it’s actually going to BUF and SYR first.

WeatherPilot · Tue Nov 13, 2018 6:56 pm

SyracuseAvGeek wrote:
jworks158 wrote:
A new jetblue special livery returned from the paintshop today! Flightradar24 just tweeted that it will be headed to BUF and ROC tomorrow! It is N809JB

Close, but it’s actually going to BUF and SYR first.

I wouldn't bother spotting it to take pics until it leaves Thursday morning because it's the A320 that comes in from MCO at around 11pm. So you won't be able to see it very well.

jworks158 · Tue Nov 13, 2018 8:15 pm

SyracuseAvGeek wrote:
jworks158 wrote:
A new jetblue special livery returned from the paintshop today! Flightradar24 just tweeted that it will be headed to BUF and ROC tomorrow! It is N809JB

Close, but it’s actually going to BUF and SYR first.

Thats what I meant...

teneriffe77 · Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:33 am

As far as gates goes at SYR any new carrier would probably be put at either gate 12 or 20 as those are the only gates that are free during the day. Both of those gates have jetways which gate 14 doesn't (the former AC gate). Of those 2 gates 20 would probably the 1st choice as gate 12 is used by B6 during the winter as an overnight gate for the FLL flight and as a backup gate (I saw a UAEX E-175 there last month). Gate 1 is also used as an overnight gate by B6 but it's also Frontier's gate. BTW that terminal really does feel more open that it used to be and aviation exhibit below the security checkpoint which has a window looking out onto the center tarmac is really interesting (apart from a few errors which I did point out to my coworkers on the project) and I recommend it to anyone passing through the terminal.

SyracuseAvGeek · Wed Nov 14, 2018 6:59 pm

Does anyone think gate 15 might be used again if another airline would start. If southwest did start they would need to set up their boarding podiums (A,B,C 1-30), where other gates have room for the stands?

teneriffe77 · Wed Nov 14, 2018 7:14 pm

Maybe although gate 15 it is out of the way as far as people traffic flow and it would need some work as it looks like they haven't used it in a few years. BTW I think the main reason why AC pulled the YYZ flights was simply retiring the aircraft type and not as others have suggested the gate size. That gate has no problem with other aircraft types and if wasn't for the B1900's leaving the fleet the route would have continued. AC charged a very high fare for what was a 1 hour flight that could have been driven in 5-6 hours and there were much cheaper options for getting to the majority of their destinations.

SyracuseAvGeek · Wed Nov 14, 2018 8:25 pm

teneriffe77 wrote:
BTW I think the main reason why AC pulled the YYZ flights was simply retiring the aircraft type and not as others have suggested the gate size. That gate has no problem with other aircraft types and if wasn't for the B1900's leaving the fleet the route would have continued. AC charged a very high fare for what was a 1 hour flight that could have been driven in 5-6 hours and there were much cheaper options for getting to the majority of their destinations.

It was a combination of both, they retired the Beech-1900 from their YYZ base (the remaining of them were moved to Calgary) and the next smallest plane, which is the Dash-8, has a wing span too large for that gate. You are correct in that the fares on the nonstop flight were very expensive, but MOST people going to Toronto just drive, a majority of the passengers on the flight connect to other destinations. The cheapest flights from SYR to Europe/Asia/South America/parts of the Caribbean were usually with AC .
For example a nonstop from SYR-YYZ would be between $300-$500 oneway , where as a flight from SYR to Vancouver was $286 (which I have booked before)

United_fan · Wed Nov 14, 2018 9:19 pm

I drive ROC-BUF to fly WN non-stop to FLL every winter for like 6 years. Why ROC cannot get a S Florida n/s is beyond me.

jplatts · Wed Nov 14, 2018 9:38 pm

United_fan wrote:
I drive ROC-BUF to fly WN non-stop to FLL every winter for like 6 years. Why ROC cannot get a S Florida n/s is beyond me.

I agree that B6, WN, or G4 could add ROC-FLL nonstop service. I also agree that AA could also add ROC-MIA nonstop service with AA having a hub at MIA.

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