mcdu
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Southwest sued for removing Arabic speaking passenger

Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:59 pm

Passenger removed for speaking Arabic on a cellphone on a Southwest flight was removed. The passenger is now suing the airline.

https://www.bizjournals.com/dallas/news/2018/02/14/arabic-speaking-passenger-booted-from-plane-sues.html
 
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mariner
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Re: Southwest sued for removing Arabic speaking passenger

Fri Feb 23, 2018 2:27 am

Not that he should have been chucked off the plane for it, but how did they know he was speaking Arabic?

mariner
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jubguy3
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Re: Southwest sued for removing Arabic speaking passenger

Fri Feb 23, 2018 2:35 am

mariner wrote:
Not that he should have been chucked off the plane for it, but how did they know he was speaking Arabic?

mariner


Arabic has a certain set of linguistic features that make it easy to distinguish from other languages. Examples of this are frequent glottal stops and the preposition "al-", which is visible in English words like algebra and alcohol.
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: Southwest sued for removing Arabic speaking passenger

Fri Feb 23, 2018 2:53 am

Please avoid political statements and just discuss the topic. Politics can be discussed in the Non Aviation Forum.

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mariner
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Re: Southwest sued for removing Arabic speaking passenger

Fri Feb 23, 2018 3:05 am

jubguy3 wrote:
Arabic has a certain set of linguistic features that make it easy to distinguish from other languages. Examples of this are frequent glottal stops and the preposition "al-", which is visible in English words like algebra and alcohol.


I speak three languages, all Latin based, but I don't find Arabic all that easy to distinguish unless I'm concentrating. And - I suggest - most people wouldn't know what a glottal stop is.

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einsteinboricua
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Re: Southwest sued for removing Arabic speaking passenger

Fri Feb 23, 2018 3:10 am

mariner wrote:
Not that he should have been chucked off the plane for it, but how did they know he was speaking Arabic?

mariner

Likely the "inshallah" phrase.

I've actually seen profiling (discreetly but there): while waiting to board a STL-SFO flight, a group of 5 Muslim guys (probably in their 20s) gathered to begin evening prayers. They placed their shoes away from the area they were praying in (they actually went to an area where there were no passengers) and placed a mat to kneel in. I immediately saw 3 security officers like vultures: placed in different areas watching them as they prayed. When they were done, all three officers left.

I honestly wanted to ask if there was a problem, but seeing as how the flight had been delayed for well over 2 hours the last thing I wanted was to miss it because of an argument.

There was also a case of an economist being taken off a flight because he was doing math.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
TheOldDude
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Re: Southwest sued for removing Arabic speaking passenger

Fri Feb 23, 2018 3:21 am

So far we only know the one side in the lawsuit. Taking sides based on that displays the bias of the observer rather than a rational analysis of the facts. Since profiling is just as wrong as prejudging I'll wait to hear from the other side before throwing any stones.
 
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stl07
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Re: Southwest sued for removing Arabic speaking passenger

Fri Feb 23, 2018 3:23 am

Sort of OT, but for some reason, I always get the vibe that WN (and G4) are sort of more backward, unopen airlines as a whole. While what these staff did clearly is not the policy of the thousands of other WN employees, whenever I think of WN (or G4), modern or hipster never comes to my head even though WN has some of the newest planes around. I always think as though I'm heading to the rural midwest, friendly yet narrowminded, when WN comes to mind and stories like these certainly don't help that opinion. Keep in mind that I in no way believe that all WN/G4/rural midwestern people are like this, but I just get that feeling about WN.
Last edited by stl07 on Fri Feb 23, 2018 3:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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scbriml
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Re: Southwest sued for removing Arabic speaking passenger

Fri Feb 23, 2018 3:48 am

pdt2f wrote:
So you’re upset he was profiled because of the language he spoke, and you follow that with insulting the tens of thousands of employees and hundreds of millions of customers that fly southwest? If the southwest staff who had this person removed from the plane lobbed a grenade of prejudice, you just launched an atom bomb of it.


Yeah, right. How was it not discrimination based on the language he spoke? Would he have been thrown off if he spoke French or German? How about Polish or Greek?

stl07 wrote:
Sort of OT, but for some reason, I always get the vibe that WN (and G4) are sort of more backward, unopen airlines as a whole.


You mean the airline equivalent of white trailer-trash called Billy-Bob with a Confederate flag tattoo who's married to his sister?

einsteinboricua wrote:
There was also a case of an economist being taken off a flight because he was doing math.


Anyone using that god-forsaken science shit deserves everything they get. Praise the Lord, Hallelujah!
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GatorClark
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Re: Southwest sued for removing Arabic speaking passenger

Fri Feb 23, 2018 3:56 am

bagoldex wrote:
Hope he wins. The clientele and staff of Southwest are truly the worst America has to offer.


Excuse me? I wasn't aware that you KNOW me personally. I am a very loyal Southwest customer and unless you know everything about me and what kind of person I am, I suggest you amend your statement. BTW, I also have quite a few friends that work for Southwest and are some of the most upstanding people I know and do whatever it takes to make their customers happy as that is how the believe that they (themselves and Southwest) distinguish themselves from the competition. It has been confirmed that the 9/11 hijackers made phone calls IN ARABIC, right before their plane departed and while I ABSOLUTELY DON'T agree with profiling or discrimination of any sort, it is completely understandable why that might have created an atmosphere of uneasiness and discomfort among the other passengers and crew.
 
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Re: Southwest sued for removing Arabic speaking passenger

Fri Feb 23, 2018 4:08 am

GatorClark wrote:
It has been confirmed that the 9/11 hijackers made phone calls IN ARABIC, right before their plane departed and while I ABSOLUTELY DON'T agree with profiling or discrimination of any sort, it is completely understandable why that might have created an atmosphere of uneasiness and discomfort among the other passengers and crew.

It has been confirmed that the Aurora movie theater shooter spoke English right before he entered the theater and while I don't agree with profiling or discrimination of any sort, it is completely understandable why that might create an atmosphere of uneasiness and discomfort among movie goers everywhere in the country.

If this sounds ridiculous, it's because it is.

If you're gonna be against profiling/discrimination, don't attempt to make scenarios where it's acceptable to react that way. Not every person that speaks Arabic is a terrorist set on blowing up your plane, just like not every person who owns a gun is mentally capable of handling one.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
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scbriml
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Re: Southwest sued for removing Arabic speaking passenger

Fri Feb 23, 2018 4:15 am

GatorClark wrote:
It has been confirmed that the 9/11 hijackers made phone calls IN ARABIC, right before their plane departed and while I ABSOLUTELY DON'T agree with profiling or discrimination of any sort, it is completely understandable why that might have created an atmosphere of uneasiness and discomfort among the other passengers and crew.


So over 16 years later without anything approaching a similar event, anyone speaking Arabic is automatically under suspicion of being a terrorist? I suppose all German speakers must be Nazi war criminals?
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JRL3289
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Re: Southwest sued for removing Arabic speaking passenger

Fri Feb 23, 2018 4:17 am

mariner wrote:
jubguy3 wrote:
Arabic has a certain set of linguistic features that make it easy to distinguish from other languages. Examples of this are frequent glottal stops and the preposition "al-", which is visible in English words like algebra and alcohol.


I speak three languages, all Latin based, but I don't find Arabic all that easy to distinguish unless I'm concentrating. And - I suggest - most people wouldn't know what a glottal stop is.

mariner


:checkmark: A lot of people have difficulty distinguishing between the various English-speaking accents of the world. I'd be shocked if the average American were able to actually distinguish Arabic amongst a grouping of other widely spoken languages. What makes it even more complicated is that Arabic isn't really a spoken language but rather a continuum of mutually intelligible languages (or dialects, depending on the linguist you speak with) linked together by a standardized form used in writing and broadcast media; I can guarantee the average person doesn't realize that. :)

einsteinboricua wrote:
mariner wrote:
Not that he should have been chucked off the plane for it, but how did they know he was speaking Arabic?

mariner

Likely the "inshallah" phrase.


"Inshallah" in Arabic has about as much religious connotation as the "God bless you" does in English when someone sneezes; it is used ad-nauseam when discussing any future events. It's also used quite a bit by non-Arabic speakers to underscore the hopeful nature of a sentiment... quite common among Turks, Persians and, to a lesser extent, Israelis. If this is indeed the reason for removing the passenger - which it seems to be, otherwise Southwest would have responded with something other than a boilerplate response - then Southwest would be smart to simply settle and put this to bed.
 
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Re: Southwest sued for removing Arabic speaking passenger

Fri Feb 23, 2018 4:24 am

JRL3289 wrote:
A lot of people have difficulty distinguishing between the various English-speaking accents of the world.


My wife and I (both English) have had issues making ourselves understood multiple times in the last three weeks in Florida.
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mcogator
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Re: Southwest sued for removing Arabic speaking passenger

Fri Feb 23, 2018 4:38 am

JRL3289 wrote:
mariner wrote:
jubguy3 wrote:
Arabic has a certain set of linguistic features that make it easy to distinguish from other languages. Examples of this are frequent glottal stops and the preposition "al-", which is visible in English words like algebra and alcohol.


I speak three languages, all Latin based, but I don't find Arabic all that easy to distinguish unless I'm concentrating. And - I suggest - most people wouldn't know what a glottal stop is.

mariner


:checkmark: A lot of people have difficulty distinguishing between the various English-speaking accents of the world. I'd be shocked if the average American were able to actually distinguish Arabic amongst a grouping of other widely spoken languages. What makes it even more complicated is that Arabic isn't really a spoken language but rather a continuum of mutually intelligible languages (or dialects, depending on the linguist you speak with) linked together by a standardized form used in writing and broadcast media; I can guarantee the average person doesn't realize that. :)

einsteinboricua wrote:
mariner wrote:
Not that he should have been chucked off the plane for it, but how did they know he was speaking Arabic?

mariner

Likely the "inshallah" phrase.


"Inshallah" in Arabic has about as much religious connotation as the "God bless you" does in English when someone sneezes; it is used ad-nauseam when discussing any future events. It's also used quite a bit by non-Arabic speakers to underscore the hopeful nature of a sentiment... quite common among Turks, Persians and, to a lesser extent, Israelis. If this is indeed the reason for removing the passenger - which it seems to be, otherwise Southwest would have responded with something other than a boilerplate response - then Southwest would be smart to simply settle and put this to bed.

Inshallah is also used by non-Muslim Arabic speakers. I once had a Coptic Christian Egyptian car salesman whose last name had Allah in it. Many people don't understand that Allah is just the Arabic word for God, and is used by Muslims and non-Muslims alike. The majority of Arab-Americans are Christian.
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bagoldex
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Re: Southwest sued for removing Arabic speaking passenger

Fri Feb 23, 2018 5:13 am

GatorClark wrote:
bagoldex wrote:
Hope he wins. The clientele and staff of Southwest are truly the worst America has to offer.


Excuse me? I wasn't aware that you KNOW me personally. I am a very loyal Southwest customer and unless you know everything about me and what kind of person I am, I suggest you amend your statement. BTW, I also have quite a few friends that work for Southwest and are some of the most upstanding people I know and do whatever it takes to make their customers happy as that is how the believe that they (themselves and Southwest) distinguish themselves from the competition. It has been confirmed that the 9/11 hijackers made phone calls IN ARABIC, right before their plane departed and while I ABSOLUTELY DON'T agree with profiling or discrimination of any sort, it is completely understandable why that might have created an atmosphere of uneasiness and discomfort among the other passengers and crew.


I don't know who you are, nor would I wish to but you've made my point. Millions of Muslims travel every year and many, perhaps most, might place a phone call before take off. If that freaks anyone out then that person should be the one taken off the plane and checked in somewhere to get help for their irrational fear, paranoia and xenophobia.
 
waly777
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Re: Southwest sued for removing Arabic speaking passenger

Fri Feb 23, 2018 7:05 am

GatorClark wrote:
bagoldex wrote:
Hope he wins. The clientele and staff of Southwest are truly the worst America has to offer.


Excuse me? I wasn't aware that you KNOW me personally. I am a very loyal Southwest customer and unless you know everything about me and what kind of person I am, I suggest you amend your statement. BTW, I also have quite a few friends that work for Southwest and are some of the most upstanding people I know and do whatever it takes to make their customers happy as that is how the believe that they (themselves and Southwest) distinguish themselves from the competition. It has been confirmed that the 9/11 hijackers made phone calls IN ARABIC, right before their plane departed and while I ABSOLUTELY DON'T agree with profiling or discrimination of any sort, it is completely understandable why that might have created an atmosphere of uneasiness and discomfort among the other passengers and crew.


This is probably one of the most ignorant posts I've seen this year. The mass shooters in america spoke english whilst shooting, what is your point?

Don't try to justify a clear case of discrimination by southwest, i hope the young man wins and this becomes a learning moment for the airline.
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: Southwest sued for removing Arabic speaking passenger

Fri Feb 23, 2018 7:17 am

GatorClark wrote:
It has been confirmed that the 9/11 hijackers made phone calls IN ARABIC, right before their plane departed and while I ABSOLUTELY DON'T agree with profiling or discrimination of any sort, it is completely understandable why that might have created an atmosphere of uneasiness and discomfort among the other passengers and crew.


Do you think any future terrorist would be stupid enough to chat animatedly in Arabic on the phone and attract attention to themselves when they could easily just send a Whatsapp/Telegram/FB Messenger message discreetly?
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CRJ900
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Re: Southwest sued for removing Arabic speaking passenger

Fri Feb 23, 2018 8:58 am

scbriml wrote:
JRL3289 wrote:
A lot of people have difficulty distinguishing between the various English-speaking accents of the world.


My wife and I (both English) have had issues making ourselves understood multiple times in the last three weeks in Florida.


Are you chavs and sound like Vicky Pollard? ;)
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TC957
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Re: Southwest sued for removing Arabic speaking passenger

Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:23 am

CRJ900 wrote:
scbriml wrote:
JRL3289 wrote:
A lot of people have difficulty distinguishing between the various English-speaking accents of the world.


My wife and I (both English) have had issues making ourselves understood multiple times in the last three weeks in Florida.


Are you chavs and sound like Vicky Pollard? ;)

Ha Ha ! That joke will be lost on our American friends.....
 
ei146
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Re: Southwest sued for removing Arabic speaking passenger

Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:27 am

GatorClark wrote:
It has been confirmed that the 9/11 hijackers made phone calls IN ARABIC, right before their plane departed and while I ABSOLUTELY DON'T agree with profiling or discrimination of any sort, it is completely understandable why that might have created an atmosphere of uneasiness and discomfort among the other passengers and crew.


And they even had a breakfast that they. So everybody having breakfast should be considered a serious thread?
Man, and you don't even realise how stupid your remark is. Just in case this piece of information is news in your neck of the woods: There are about 7000 different languages in use in this world. English is the native language of only about 330 million people. But there are about 7.5 billion human beings. This means more then 7 billion people have a different native language but English. And it might be even more surprising to you: these people use their mother tongue if they talk to their kind.
The "uneasiness and discomfort" you mentioned is completly irrational. It should not be supported but confronted. According to numbers of your own government between 2001 and 2014, 440,095 people died by firearms on US soil. At the same time there were 3,043 people killed by acts of terrorismn in the USA including 9/11, and 369 US citizens killed overseas as a result of incidents of terrorism. So in the USA it is 140 times more likely to be killed by a gun than by an act of terrorism.
And on a site note: Alone in 2015 35,092 people died in the USA due to traffic accidents.
So something is seriously wrong with the risk perception there. When I am in the USA I feel some discomfort about a number of things. But terrorism is not on the list.
 
flydude380
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Re: Southwest sued for removing Arabic speaking passenger

Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:31 am

If Delta, United and Air Canada have survived DXB, DOH, KWI, BAH, CAI, AMM, CMN and ALG, then I’m sure Southwest could have survived him speaking Arabic in the US :)
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: Southwest sued for removing Arabic speaking passenger

Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:53 am

TheOldDude wrote:
So far we only know the one side in the lawsuit. Taking sides based on that displays the bias of the observer rather than a rational analysis of the facts. Since profiling is just as wrong as prejudging I'll wait to hear from the other side before throwing any stones.

That's a convenient way of burying the incident; do you really believe we will hear the other side of this lawsuit anytime before Xmas? 2020.

And BTW - it's racial profiling that's the problem here, not profiling per se.
Standard (non-racial) profiling is what every one of us does, seven days a week. Some of us pretend to be holier than Allah himself, but the truth is we all do it.

Men do it with regard to women, but the smart ones have trained themselves to limit the effects.

Women also do it with regard to men, but either proclaim themselves as feminists, or argue that they are not the slightest bit biased, and then look nervously over their shoulder because, well, you know, you just can't trust most men.... (and they may indeed have a point :lol: )

But enough stirring the pot; let's get back on topic. Security guards at airports are inevitably going to utilise profiling as part of their job.
TBH they have my sympathy; it is predominantly a fact that most recent hi-jackings have involved muslim/arabs.

Hang on, I'll just check that assertion.
February 8, 2008: Eagle Airways Flight 2279 - nope, that was a nutcase who just couldn't afford the air fare from NZ to Aus.
April 19, 2009: CanJet Flight 918 - nope, sounds like a Cuban-Jamaican who had smoked a little too much ganja
September 9, 2009: AeroMéxico Flight 576 - er, nope again. Bolivian Jose Flores claimed divine guidance as his motive for the hijack, although local media noted that he had a history of drug- and alcohol-related problems.
January 5, 2011: Turkish Airlines Flight 1754, flying from Oslo to Istanbul when an un-named suspect demanded the plane return to Norway. I can only presume he was a Norwegian Blue, desperately pining to return to his native fjords. :cry2:

I could go on, but whilst the remaining incidents (2011-2016) all on the surface feature Islamic perps, vaguely Arabic airlines, or exotic destinations, the reality is mostly they can be summed up either as severely intoxicated idiots, or co-pilots having a meltdown. On that subject, Germanwings Flight 9525, is the only incident within the last 10 years that involved any loss of life.

We've come a long way since 9/11, and I'm inclined to suggest that most of us are now more likely to be involved in a practice hi-jacking enacted by security services, or a false alarm, than the real thing. (Fingers crossed I'm not proved wrong anytime soon.)
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: Southwest sued for removing Arabic speaking passenger

Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:04 am

ei146 wrote:
The "uneasiness and discomfort" you mentioned is completly irrational. It should not be supported but confronted.
:checkmark:

ei146 wrote:
According to numbers of your own government between 2001 and 2014, 440,095 people died by firearms on US soil. At the same time there were 3,043 people killed by acts of terrorismn in the USA including 9/11,
May I respectfully suggest the data for 2001 is omitted on both counts? I see 9/11 as a one-off event, never to be forgotten, but also never to be repeated.

So in the USA you are 10,000 (est) times more likely to be killed by a gun than by an act of terrorism.

ei146 wrote:
Something is seriously wrong with the risk perception there.
When I am in the USA I feel some discomfort about a number of things. But terrorism is not on the list.

And another :checkmark:
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
Ferroviarius
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Re: Southwest sued for removing Arabic speaking passenger

Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:05 am

GatorClark wrote:
bagoldex wrote:
Hope he wins. The clientele and staff of Southwest are truly the worst America has to offer.


Excuse me? I wasn't aware that you KNOW me personally. I am a very loyal Southwest customer and unless you know everything about me and what kind of person I am, I suggest you amend your statement. BTW, I also have quite a few friends that work for Southwest and are some of the most upstanding people I know and do whatever it takes to make their customers happy as that is how the believe that they (themselves and Southwest) distinguish themselves from the competition. It has been confirmed that the 9/11 hijackers made phone calls IN ARABIC, right before their plane departed and while I ABSOLUTELY DON'T agree with profiling or discrimination of any sort, it is completely understandable why that might have created an atmosphere of uneasiness and discomfort among the other passengers and crew.


Dear Gator,

it quite certainly might have been as you write, "it is completely understandable why that might have created an atmosphere of uneasiness and discomfort among the other passengers and crew".
However, and this is the big issue, the creation of uneasiness and discomfort based on irrational feelings is per se, must per se not, justify any "measures" against those creating this "atmosphere of uneasiness and discomfort " by just being as they are or using their language. This is the big problem, not only in matters of flight security, but in a much more general setting. There will always be persons, who, just by their personality or by their clothing or by the language they use, cause discomfort and uneasiness for other persons. But then, as long as nobody violates any laws, must not result in any form of pursuit or discrimination of the "uneasiness maker". Imagine you would be in a country with a foreign culture, in which the simple fact that you speak English would cause "uneasiness" among the majority of your fellow travellers in an airplane: How would you react if you were asked to leave the plane for that sole reason?

Best,
Ferroviarius
 
747-600X
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Re: Southwest sued for removing Arabic speaking passenger

Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:14 am

Sooooooooooo... have we established why the passenger was removed yet? We know that he was speaking Arabic and that he was thrown off the plane, right? Has SW commented on why they removed him?
 
xdlx
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Re: Southwest sued for removing Arabic speaking passenger

Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:44 am

How did the individual, arrived to airport, pass thru TSA, and understood boarding instructions? Did he not speak or understand ANY english?
Was he speaking to another passenger in a "foreign language"?
 
bgm
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Re: Southwest sued for removing Arabic speaking passenger

Fri Feb 23, 2018 12:02 pm

xdlx wrote:
How did the individual, arrived to airport, pass thru TSA, and understood boarding instructions? Did he not speak or understand ANY english?
Was he speaking to another passenger in a "foreign language"?


I can’t believe I’m having to say this, but you know that people can speak more than 1 language, right?
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: Southwest sued for removing Arabic speaking passenger

Fri Feb 23, 2018 12:19 pm

xdlx wrote:
How did the individual, arrived to airport, pass thru TSA, and understood boarding instructions? Did he not speak or understand ANY english?
Was he speaking to another passenger in a "foreign language"?

May I suggest you follow the OP original link to the news article?
That might help you to avoid tripping yourself up with your own racial stereotyping.

There is no suggestion that he ONLY spoke Arabic.
There is no suggestion that he needed to "pass thru TSA"; indeed this is highly unlikely as WN do not fly to any Arabic countries, and this was most likely a US domestic flight. (LAX - ???)

Let me help you out;
Makhzoomi was 26 years old and a public policy student at the University of California Berkeley when the incident occurred in April 2016. He is an American citizen and came to the United States as an Iraqi refugee.
Makhzoomi spoke in Arabic to his uncle in Baghdad during a brief phone call after boarding

I think it is safe to suggest that his "Uncle in Baghdad" might not speak too much English, and that could be the reason behind his furtive and dangerous conversation in Arabic....

Do please read the article for yourself, although I do accept it would have been helpful if the OP had cherry-picked a few comments from it to kick the discussion off.
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: Southwest sued for removing Arabic speaking passenger

Fri Feb 23, 2018 12:24 pm

747-600X wrote:
Sooooooooooo... have we established why the passenger was removed yet? We know that he was speaking Arabic and that he was thrown off the plane, right? Has SW commented on why they removed him?

Yes, yes, and no. Got it. Good!

May I suggest you take a minute to read the original article by following the link provided by the OP in post #1; although I do accept it would also have been helpful if the OP had cherry-picked a few comments from it to kick the discussion off.
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
jubguy3
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Re: Southwest sued for removing Arabic speaking passenger

Fri Feb 23, 2018 12:32 pm

xdlx wrote:
How did the individual, arrived to airport, pass thru TSA, and understood boarding instructions? Did he not speak or understand ANY english?
Was he speaking to another passenger in a "foreign language"?


SKJKJSKKS you could not have possibly typed that out not thinking to yourself "maybe he could speak English too if he boarded a domestic flight". The person in question is an Iraqi refugee who came here at a young age and has a graduate degree I believe, and is an American citizen. I would hope our education system didn't fail to teach him English at any point, considering they probably begun teaching it to him as a child when he was living in Iraq.
 
TheOldDude
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Re: Southwest sued for removing Arabic speaking passenger

Fri Feb 23, 2018 1:05 pm

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
TheOldDude wrote:
So far we only know the one side in the lawsuit. Taking sides based on that displays the bias of the observer rather than a rational analysis of the facts. Since profiling is just as wrong as prejudging I'll wait to hear from the other side before throwing any stones.

That's a convenient way of burying the incident; do you really believe we will hear the other side of this lawsuit anytime before Xmas? 2020.

And BTW - it's racial profiling that's the problem here, not profiling per se.
Standard (non-racial) profiling is what every one of us does, seven days a week. Some of us pretend to be holier than Allah himself, but the truth is we all do it.

Men do it with regard to women, but the smart ones have trained themselves to limit the effects.

Women also do it with regard to men, but either proclaim themselves as feminists, or argue that they are not the slightest bit biased, and then look nervously over their shoulder because, well, you know, you just can't trust most men.... (and they may indeed have a point :lol: )

But enough stirring the pot; let's get back on topic. Security guards at airports are inevitably going to utilise profiling as part of their job.
TBH they have my sympathy; it is predominantly a fact that most recent hi-jackings have involved muslim/arabs.

Hang on, I'll just check that assertion.
February 8, 2008: Eagle Airways Flight 2279 - nope, that was a nutcase who just couldn't afford the air fare from NZ to Aus.
April 19, 2009: CanJet Flight 918 - nope, sounds like a Cuban-Jamaican who had smoked a little too much ganja
September 9, 2009: AeroMéxico Flight 576 - er, nope again. Bolivian Jose Flores claimed divine guidance as his motive for the hijack, although local media noted that he had a history of drug- and alcohol-related problems.
January 5, 2011: Turkish Airlines Flight 1754, flying from Oslo to Istanbul when an un-named suspect demanded the plane return to Norway. I can only presume he was a Norwegian Blue, desperately pining to return to his native fjords. :cry2:

I could go on, but whilst the remaining incidents (2011-2016) all on the surface feature Islamic perps, vaguely Arabic airlines, or exotic destinations, the reality is mostly they can be summed up either as severely intoxicated idiots, or co-pilots having a meltdown. On that subject, Germanwings Flight 9525, is the only incident within the last 10 years that involved any loss of life.

We've come a long way since 9/11, and I'm inclined to suggest that most of us are now more likely to be involved in a practice hi-jacking enacted by security services, or a false alarm, than the real thing. (Fingers crossed I'm not proved wrong anytime soon.)


As I said, without knowing more about the incident those who jump to conclusions are only illuminating their own biases.
 
jeffrey1970
Posts: 1478
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2001 1:41 am

Re: Southwest sued for removing Arabic speaking passenger

Fri Feb 23, 2018 1:39 pm

I would love to hear the airline defend themselves as far as this case goes, but my guess they will attempt to settle out of court so that they do not have to defend themselves in court.
God bless through Jesus, Jeff
 
zrs70
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Re: Southwest sued for removing Arabic speaking passenger

Fri Feb 23, 2018 3:04 pm

Help me here. I read the linked article. It sounds like it has less to do with the language spoken and more to do with the substance of the conversation.

There were buzz words that can make people nervous.

If an English speaking person says the word “bomb” - the same result would likely occur.
19 year airliners.net vet! 2000-2019
 
carljanderson
Posts: 145
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Re: Southwest sued for removing Arabic speaking passenger

Fri Feb 23, 2018 3:35 pm

zrs70 wrote:
Help me here. I read the linked article. It sounds like it has less to do with the language spoken and more to do with the substance of the conversation.

There were buzz words that can make people nervous.

If an English speaking person says the word “bomb” - the same result would likely occur.


Farcical. Eqauting allah (and anything sounding close to it) to bomb is asinine.
 
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gatibosgru
Posts: 1518
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Re: Southwest sued for removing Arabic speaking passenger

Fri Feb 23, 2018 4:08 pm

carljanderson wrote:
zrs70 wrote:
Help me here. I read the linked article. It sounds like it has less to do with the language spoken and more to do with the substance of the conversation.

There were buzz words that can make people nervous.

If an English speaking person says the word “bomb” - the same result would likely occur.


Farcical. Eqauting allah (and anything sounding close to it) to bomb is asinine.


Agreed!

As has been stated in this post, it is common to say "God bless you"and "oh my god" all the time, so the word allah should in no way be alarming.
@DadCelo
 
chicawgo
Posts: 375
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Re: Southwest sued for removing Arabic speaking passenger

Fri Feb 23, 2018 4:09 pm

I read another article on this which mentions that it was another passenger that alerted the flight crew that he spoke Arabic and noticed some concerning language the man was using. If that’s the case, that completely changes the story in my view. I wouldn’t blame the WN crew for at least reporting it to authorities and having him removed from the plane. If it turns out that he said nothing wrong then that passenger should be sued and punished for filing a false claim, etc.

Of course it’s ridiculous and terrible that the victim had to go through this but, until we know all the facts, I don’t think we can blanket blame Southwest. It may be the other passenger that was bigoted and caused the alarm.

Just imagine if you were an English speaking based crew/airline and a passenger came up to you and said, “I speak mandarin and that man over there just said some very concerning things on the phone in mandarin.” What do you? You don’t speak mandarin. You take the precaution and assume this person is not lying. It’s the exact reason why yelling “fire” in public is against the law. If someone is screaming fire, you don’t take the time to do a full personal audit of the building to make sure you’re not jumping to conclusions... you leave the building!

Again, I’m not at all saying there wasn’t bigotry here, I’m simply saying that it may not have been on the part of the crew and we shouldn’t be so quick to judge them.
 
Judge1310
Posts: 315
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Re: Southwest sued for removing Arabic speaking passenger

Fri Feb 23, 2018 4:26 pm

TC957 wrote:
CRJ900 wrote:
scbriml wrote:

My wife and I (both English) have had issues making ourselves understood multiple times in the last three weeks in Florida.


Are you chavs and sound like Vicky Pollard? ;)

Ha Ha ! That joke will be lost on our American friends.....


But no, but yes, but no, but yes...!!

Some of us US Americans sneakily know these things...just take care to not be the only one in the village! ;) :lol:
 
Braniff1
Posts: 94
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Re: Southwest sued for removing Arabic speaking passenger

Fri Feb 23, 2018 4:27 pm

scbriml wrote:
JRL3289 wrote:
A lot of people have difficulty distinguishing between the various English-speaking accents of the world.


My wife and I (both English) have had issues making ourselves understood multiple times in the last three weeks in Florida.


Well Governor, maybe you and the Mrs. should learn to speak the King's English; after all, we Colonist had to.
1 of 10
 
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mariner
Posts: 19473
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Re: Southwest sued for removing Arabic speaking passenger

Fri Feb 23, 2018 7:28 pm

chicawgo wrote:
I read another article on this which mentions that it was another passenger that alerted the flight crew that he spoke Arabic and noticed some concerning language the man was using. If that’s the case, that completely changes the story in my view. I wouldn’t blame the WN crew for at least reporting it to authorities and having him removed from the plane. If it turns out that he said nothing wrong then that passenger should be sued and punished for filing a false claim, etc.

Of course it’s ridiculous and terrible that the victim had to go through this but, until we know all the facts, I don’t think we can blanket blame Southwest. It may be the other passenger that was bigoted and caused the alarm.

Again, I’m not at all saying there wasn’t bigotry here, I’m simply saying that it may not have been on the part of the crew and we shouldn’t be so quick to judge them.


Your apologia for Southwest is very nice, but it misses out on one detail. Even after the man was cleared by police and the FBI, Southwest refused to fly him. They gave him his money back but wouldn't allow him on their aircraft.

http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2018/0 ... profiling/

"After both the police and the FBI cleared Makhzoomi, Southwest refunded his ticket but refused to book him on another Southwest flight. Makhzoomi found a flight on a different airline and arrived in Oakland eight hours later than planned."

He flew Delta instead.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
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SheikhDjibouti
Posts: 1717
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Re: Southwest sued for removing Arabic speaking passenger

Fri Feb 23, 2018 7:38 pm

zrs70 wrote:
Help me here. I read the linked article. It sounds like it has less to do with the language spoken and more to do with the substance of the conversation.

There were buzz words that can make people nervous.

If an English speaking person says the word “bomb” - the same result would likely occur.

Listen closely to any conversation and I'm sure you can imagine your worst nightmare....

"rhubarb, rhubarb, rhubarb, BOMB bay Duck, rhubarb, crumble and I SCREAM"

"something, something, blind-date, twin sisters, both blonde BOMB shells, undercarriage totally WAR out"

"waffle, waffle, waffle, President Trump dropped a real BOMB again, waffle, waffle"

"blah, blah, blah, new dress, mirror, so she says "does my BOMB look big in this?"

Image
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
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SheikhDjibouti
Posts: 1717
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Re: Southwest sued for removing Arabic speaking passenger

Fri Feb 23, 2018 7:52 pm

chicawgo wrote:
I read another article on this which mentions that it was another passenger that alerted the flight crew that he spoke Arabic and noticed some concerning language the man was using. If that’s the case, that completely changes the story in my view.

Good point.
And you read this.......where?

C'mon, you know how this goes. Or at least come up with a token apology for why you are unable to find this single piece of information that is critical to your whole post. For a start I would expect the law enforcement agents to demand a statement from this mystery witness. Or is he already buried so deep in a witness protection program that his very existence is a state secret?
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
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admanager
Posts: 239
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Re: Southwest sued for removing Arabic speaking passenger

Fri Feb 23, 2018 7:53 pm

CRJ900 wrote:
scbriml wrote:
JRL3289 wrote:
A lot of people have difficulty distinguishing between the various English-speaking accents of the world.


My wife and I (both English) have had issues making ourselves understood multiple times in the last three weeks in Florida.


Are you chavs and sound like Vicky Pollard? ;)

On the TV show "Moonshiners" here in the US, the show has subtitles in English because the characters Appalachian accents are so strong.
 
TheOldDude
Posts: 128
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Re: Southwest sued for removing Arabic speaking passenger

Fri Feb 23, 2018 7:58 pm

mariner wrote:
chicawgo wrote:
I read another article on this which mentions that it was another passenger that alerted the flight crew that he spoke Arabic and noticed some concerning language the man was using. If that’s the case, that completely changes the story in my view. I wouldn’t blame the WN crew for at least reporting it to authorities and having him removed from the plane. If it turns out that he said nothing wrong then that passenger should be sued and punished for filing a false claim, etc.

Of course it’s ridiculous and terrible that the victim had to go through this but, until we know all the facts, I don’t think we can blanket blame Southwest. It may be the other passenger that was bigoted and caused the alarm.

Again, I’m not at all saying there wasn’t bigotry here, I’m simply saying that it may not have been on the part of the crew and we shouldn’t be so quick to judge them.


Your apologia for Southwest is very nice, but it misses out on one detail. Even after the man was cleared by police and the FBI, Southwest refused to fly him. They gave him his money back but wouldn't allow him on their aircraft.

http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2018/0 ... profiling/

"After both the police and the FBI cleared Makhzoomi, Southwest refunded his ticket but refused to book him on another Southwest flight. Makhzoomi found a flight on a different airline and arrived in Oakland eight hours later than planned."

He flew Delta instead.

mariner


The linked article also provides a partial Southwest response to the allegations: "In a previous statement on April 18, 2016, Southwest said the passenger who reported Makhzoomi also spoke Arabic and asked the flight crew to investigate “what were perceived to be threatening comments.”

“Our crew responded by following protocol, as required by federal law, to investigate and report to law enforcement agencies any potential threat to civil aviation. It was the content of the passenger’s conversation, not the language used, that prompted the report leading to our investigation,” the airline said in 2106."

The difference between Southwest's statement and the rationale for the investigation given in the complaint suggests that similar differences may exist in other parts of the complaint. Additionally, one glaring area where we only have one side is whether and why Southwest did not book him on another flight.

I'm sure if we stay tuned the other side will appear.
 
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VCEflyboy
Posts: 1237
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Re: Southwest sued for removing Arabic speaking passenger

Fri Feb 23, 2018 8:00 pm

Inshallah means hopefully.
Just lie in English people may say “God forbid”. It doesn’t have any religious connotation.
 
usflyguy
Posts: 1724
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Re: Southwest sued for removing Arabic speaking passenger

Fri Feb 23, 2018 8:33 pm

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
chicawgo wrote:
I read another article on this which mentions that it was another passenger that alerted the flight crew that he spoke Arabic and noticed some concerning language the man was using. If that’s the case, that completely changes the story in my view.

Good point.
And you read this.......where?

C'mon, you know how this goes. Or at least come up with a token apology for why you are unable to find this single piece of information that is critical to your whole post. For a start I would expect the law enforcement agents to demand a statement from this mystery witness. Or is he already buried so deep in a witness protection program that his very existence is a state secret?


https://www.dallasnews.com/business/air ... ing-arabic

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/17/us/s ... plane.html
My post is my ideas and my opinions only, I do not represent the ideas or opinions of anyone else or company.
 
chicawgo
Posts: 375
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2011 5:09 pm

Re: Southwest sued for removing Arabic speaking passenger

Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:00 pm

mariner wrote:
chicawgo wrote:
I read another article on this which mentions that it was another passenger that alerted the flight crew that he spoke Arabic and noticed some concerning language the man was using. If that’s the case, that completely changes the story in my view. I wouldn’t blame the WN crew for at least reporting it to authorities and having him removed from the plane. If it turns out that he said nothing wrong then that passenger should be sued and punished for filing a false claim, etc.

Of course it’s ridiculous and terrible that the victim had to go through this but, until we know all the facts, I don’t think we can blanket blame Southwest. It may be the other passenger that was bigoted and caused the alarm.

Again, I’m not at all saying there wasn’t bigotry here, I’m simply saying that it may not have been on the part of the crew and we shouldn’t be so quick to judge them.


Your apologia for Southwest is very nice, but it misses out on one detail. Even after the man was cleared by police and the FBI, Southwest refused to fly him. They gave him his money back but wouldn't allow him on their aircraft.

http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2018/0 ... profiling/

"After both the police and the FBI cleared Makhzoomi, Southwest refunded his ticket but refused to book him on another Southwest flight. Makhzoomi found a flight on a different airline and arrived in Oakland eight hours later than planned."

He flew Delta instead.

mariner


I don't post that much on this site but why is it if anyone has a differing opinion that even SUGGESTS the airline might not be totally at fault they're immediately labeled an apologist? Feel free to read through every post I've ever written on this site and you will not find any defending Southwest. I don't fly Southwest and I have no special place in my heart for them.

And to respond to your comment, here's something you don't hear on a.net very often: If there is any evidence that they refused to fly him based on the language he spoke then I will immediately acknowledge it is racism on Southwest's part. I was simply saying that all the data people are discussing here is based on the accusations in the lawsuit. The victim is accusing Southwest of kicking him off based on the language he spoke. That doesn't immediately make it the truth -- although it is, of course, possible.

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
Good point.
And you read this.......where?

C'mon, you know how this goes. Or at least come up with a token apology for why you are unable to find this single piece of information that is critical to your whole post. For a start I would expect the law enforcement agents to demand a statement from this mystery witness. Or is he already buried so deep in a witness protection program that his very existence is a state secret?


My apologies... I don't post on here much and since it was the first news article if you do a Google search, I figured most had read that part.

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/sou ... acial-bias

If one isn't enough for you, there are several others. If you feel dallasnews.com is a Southwest apologist and don't want to search for more, let me know and I can provide them.

Quite honestly, I tried to write my post completely impartially and without taking sides. Clearly that's not how you took it. But I'll say it again... if there is any evidence shown that Southwest continued to deny him transportation even after they were affirmed by authorities that the words he used were misunderstood and not at all dangerous, I will immediately acknowledge bigotry. However, just simply going off the man's lawsuit complaint is not a fair way to judge.
 
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Aesma
Posts: 11640
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Re: Southwest sued for removing Arabic speaking passenger

Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:08 pm

Was the other passenger also removed from the flight ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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kjeld0d
Posts: 443
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Re: Southwest sued for removing Arabic speaking passenger

Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:27 pm

jubguy3 wrote:
mariner wrote:
Not that he should have been chucked off the plane for it, but how did they know he was speaking Arabic?

mariner


Arabic has a certain set of linguistic features that make it easy to distinguish from other languages. Examples of this are frequent glottal stops and the preposition "al-", which is visible in English words like algebra and alcohol.


During a press conference the Attorney General said he believed the man was a member of the notorious al-Gebra movement and the FBI intends to charge him with transporting weapons of math instruction.
 
LHRXXXLHR
Posts: 34
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Re: Southwest sued for removing Arabic speaking passenger

Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:29 pm

Vicky Pollard. Classic.

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