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KarelXWB
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Batik Air to convert entire A321neo order to A321LR

Fri Feb 23, 2018 8:54 am

CAPA made an analysis of the potential impact of the A321LR. On the sidelines, it claims Batir Air will convert (or already has) its entire A321neo order to the A321LR.

The A321neoLR will ultimately account for a much larger share of total A321neo deliveries. There could be more than 20 A321neoLR operators by the end of 2020.

For example, Batik Air CEO Achmad Luthfie told CAPA on 5-Feb-2018 that the airline was planning to take delivery of A321neoLR aircraft from 2019. Batik parent Lion Group currently has orders for 65 A321neos and 113 A320neos. Mr Achmad said all of Batik’s A321neos will be A321neoLRs.

Airbus discloses when an airline converts an A320neo order to larger A321neos but does not make an announcement if an airline converts an A321neo order to the A321neoLR. It is therefore entirely up to the airline to announce the acquisition of A321neoLRs.


Analysis
https://centreforaviation.com/insights/ ... ody-401553

If Airbus can indeed line-up more than 20 customers by the end of 2020, it shows there is potential for Boeing's middle of market business case.
Last edited by qf789 on Fri Feb 23, 2018 12:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: spelling in title
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B777LRF
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Re: Batir Air to convert entire A321neo order to A321LR

Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:03 am

KarelXWB wrote:
If Airbus can indeed line-up more than 20 customers by the end of 2020, it shows there is potential for Boeing's middle of market business case.


It might prove there's a market for a 200-240 seat narrowbody with 3000-4000NM range, but sadly for Boeing's potential business case that market has already been covered.
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AirbusA322
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Re: Batir Air to convert entire A321neo order to A321LR

Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:12 am

Going to be a very successful machine in this part of the world as it enables Asia-Australia direct and Asia-China direct.

Lion can now operate Bali to nearly every Aussie city with it.
 
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LFLL
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Re: Batir Air to convert entire A321neo order to A321LR

Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:32 am

Here is the full order book for A321 neo according to Airbus website :


AERCAP 80
AIRASIA 100
AIR LEASE CORPORATION 144
AIR NEW ZEALAND 4
ALAFCO 10
AMERICAN AIRLINES 100
ANA HOLDINGS 22
ARKIA 4
ASIANA AIRLINES 25
AVIANCA 17
AVIATION CAPITAL GROUP 15
AZUL FINANCE LLC 10
BOC AVIATION 15
BRITISH AIRWAYS 10
CALC 1
CATHAY PACIFIC AIRCRAFT SERVICES LIMITED 32
CDB LEASING 32
CEBU AIR 32
CIT 1
DELTA AIR LINES 100
EASYJET 30
ETIHAD AIRWAYS 26
FRONTIER AIRLINES 34
GECAS 34
GULF AIR 17
HAWAIIAN AIRLINES 16
HONG KONG AVIATION CAPITAL 30
IBERIA 3
ICBC 13
INDIGO 25
JETBLUE AIRWAYS 60
JETSMART 14
KOREAN AIR 30
LATAM AIRLINES GROUP 19
LION AIR 65
LUFTHANSA 40
MIDDLE EAST AIRLINES 11
NILE AIR 2
NORWEGIAN 30
PEGASUS AIRLINES 43
PHILIPPINE AIRLINES 21
QANTAS AIRWAYS 45
QATAR AIRWAYS 50
SPRING AIRLINES 15
SWISS INTERNATIONAL AIR LINES 5
TAP AIR PORTUGAL 22
TURKISH AIRLINES 92
VIETJET 73
VOLARIS 34
WIZZ AIR HUNGARY 184
UNDISCLOSED 83


Total: 1920


Which airlines will convert some aircraft to A321LR ?

I would say : AA, DL, BA, B6, TK
LFLL
 
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afterburner
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Re: Batir Air to convert entire A321neo order to A321LR

Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:56 am

AirbusA322 wrote:
Lion can now operate Bali to nearly every Aussie city with it.

With A321LR I think every city in Australia will be reachable non-stop from Bali.
 
Blankbarcode
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Re: Batir Air to convert entire A321neo order to A321LR

Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:36 am

Hopefully I'm wrong, but it seems Boeing has already missed their mark to justify the new clean sheet MOM aircraft. If potential customers are already going for the A321NEO/LR, what are the chances they would risk the reprecussions from canceling orders?

Best case scenario the MOM is well on its way behind the scenes, but airlines want planes *now*, and Airbus seems to be the only that can supply it feasibly.
 
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Re: Batir Air to convert entire A321neo order to A321LR

Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:37 am

Blankbarcode wrote:
Hopefully I'm wrong, but it seems Boeing has already missed their mark to justify the new clean sheet MOM aircraft. If potential customers are already going for the A321NEO/LR, what are the chances they would risk the reprecussions from canceling orders?

Best case scenario the MOM is well on its way behind the scenes, but airlines want planes *now*, and Airbus seems to be the only that can supply it feasibly.


If one looks as the MOM as a long time project and EIS around 2025, the aim could be on replacing A321LR when the time comes.
 
vahancrazy
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Re: Batir Air to convert entire A321neo order to A321LR

Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:45 am

AirbusA322 wrote:
Going to be a very successful machine in this part of the world as it enables Asia-Australia direct and Asia-China direct.

Lion can now operate Bali to nearly every Aussie city with it.


Excusme? China is in Asia!
 
JustSomeDood
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Re: Batir Air to convert entire A321neo order to A321LR

Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:46 am

Blankbarcode wrote:
Hopefully I'm wrong, but it seems Boeing has already missed their mark to justify the new clean sheet MOM aircraft. If potential customers are already going for the A321NEO/LR, what are the chances they would risk the reprecussions from canceling orders?

Best case scenario the MOM is well on its way behind the scenes, but airlines want planes *now*, and Airbus seems to be the only that can supply it feasibly.


I believe the most recent tidbits of information have Boeing sizing their product more on the level of an optimized regional 767/330 replacer, so a different size from the A321LR altogether.
 
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Re: Batir Air to convert entire A321neo order to A321LR

Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:48 am

Blankbarcode wrote:
Hopefully I'm wrong, but it seems Boeing has already missed their mark to justify the new clean sheet MOM aircraft. If potential customers are already going for the A321NEO/LR, what are the chances they would risk the reprecussions from canceling orders?

Best case scenario the MOM is well on its way behind the scenes, but airlines want planes *now*, and Airbus seems to be the only that can supply it feasibly.


If Boeing offered their MOM plane now, with an EOS date of 3-4 years, significative cost improvements and a competitive price vs. the A321, Airbus "could" lose some orders, but there are too many IFs involved and let's not forget it would still be a paper plane. The A321NEO/LR, on the other hand, is already flying. I don't believe American Airlines (for example) would cancel their order of 100 and sit down and wait to see what happens with the MOM.
 
StTim
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Re: Batir Air to convert entire A321neo order to A321LR

Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:48 am

It would appear that the bottom end of the MoM is owned by Airbus. The question's are - how big is the upper end (767 replacement) and how much of that would a stretched/enhanced A321 snaffle away with lower capital cost and earlier time to market.
 
juliuswong
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Re: Batir Air to convert entire A321neo order to A321LR

Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:31 am

StTim wrote:
It would appear that the bottom end of the MoM is owned by Airbus. The question's are - how big is the upper end (767 replacement) and how much of that would a stretched/enhanced A321 snaffle away with lower capital cost and earlier time to market.

I concur. Boeing needs something fast and equally/comparatively priced to counter A321 dominance, at least for upper end. Airbus could easily retaliate with rumoured A322 or something else, squeezing out Boeing on both ends.
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flee
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Re: Batir Air to convert entire A321neo order to A321LR

Fri Feb 23, 2018 12:12 pm

Very interesting points - let us not forget about the price of oil and how much fuel savings can a clean sheet MoM aircraft offer. If oil prices remain below US$ 100, airlines will have to think long and hard about the CAPEX on a new MoM aircraft. If that is the case, the existing aircraft being delivered might be retained for another 20 years as the Total Cost of Ownership of these planes would be quite competitive vs the MoM plane.

Batik Air will need the A321 (for domestic) and the LR (international) if it is to have improved CASM/CASK. So it should not be a big decision for them.
 
parapente
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Re: Batik Air to convert entire A321neo order to A321LR

Fri Feb 23, 2018 12:35 pm

It's interesting from the article/analysis attached above how many different seating configurations there are and will be.From a JetStar high of 230 odd down to 170 odd.Clearly a highly flexible a/c range/payload wise.LCC's using it one way and Legacy a completely different way.No doubt both can work for the markets they serve.
 
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Re: Batir Air to convert entire A321neo order to A321LR

Fri Feb 23, 2018 12:36 pm

AirbusA322 wrote:
Going to be a very successful machine in this part of the world as it enables Asia-Australia direct and Asia-China direct.

Lion can now operate Bali to nearly every Aussie city with it.


With JQ also taking the A321LR, there will be some interesting competitive moves to be made.

JQ will transition DPS away from their 788’s and move those to the A321LR, which will likely have to see frequency upgrades or potential gaps left in the market.

This aircraft certainly looks to be a very impressive product and I look forward to seeing what it can do.
 
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Re: Batik Air to convert entire A321neo order to A321LR

Fri Feb 23, 2018 4:38 pm

I was under the impression that the Lion group was exclusively a Boeing franchise. If the A321 can make it into the line-up at a level of orders for 65 at Batik, then Boeing must be under a competitive challenge...
 
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KarelXWB
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Re: Batik Air to convert entire A321neo order to A321LR

Fri Feb 23, 2018 4:51 pm

toxtethogrady wrote:
I was under the impression that the Lion group was exclusively a Boeing franchise. If the A321 can make it into the line-up at a level of orders for 65 at Batik, then Boeing must be under a competitive challenge...


Lion Air orders 234 A320 Family aircraft

Of which a large chunk will go to Batik Air.
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Re: Batir Air to convert entire A321neo order to A321LR

Fri Feb 23, 2018 5:14 pm

vahancrazy wrote:
AirbusA322 wrote:
Going to be a very successful machine in this part of the world as it enables Asia-Australia direct and Asia-China direct.

Lion can now operate Bali to nearly every Aussie city with it.


Excusme? China is in Asia!


Of course, but this is easier to say than listing every country-China.
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ODwyerPW
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Re: Batik Air to convert entire A321neo order to A321LR

Fri Feb 23, 2018 5:29 pm

I am not at all surprised by the runaway success that is the A321NEO (wow 1920). Just an incredible plane. However, the rate at which airlines are adopting the A321LR is simply amazing.
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YYZLGA
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Re: Batik Air to convert entire A321neo order to A321LR

Fri Feb 23, 2018 6:05 pm

Is there any disadvantage to getting the LR instead of the standard NEO if you're not concerned about cargo capacity?
 
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FA9295
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Re: Batik Air to convert entire A321neo order to A321LR

Fri Feb 23, 2018 7:11 pm

Unless they legitimately need the A321LR version for flying extra miles, this is a complete waste of money.
 
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FA9295
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Re: Batik Air to convert entire A321neo order to A321LR

Fri Feb 23, 2018 7:12 pm

YYZLGA wrote:
Is there any disadvantage to getting the LR instead of the standard NEO if you're not concerned about cargo capacity?

Cost.
 
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Re: Batik Air to convert entire A321neo order to A321LR

Fri Feb 23, 2018 7:28 pm

Because the order book post is in this thread, I could see an airline like B6 going atfter every LatAm economic capital with the A321LR (albeit some sub-daily) and convert 25 to that type. I expect DL to convert 20-25 to the LR type to replace the Delta One 757s. PR will be another interesting case, and I’d be shocked if AirAsia didn’t convert part of its order to the LR and replace X with the narrow body on some routes.
 
mikejepp
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Re: Batik Air to convert entire A321neo order to A321LR

Fri Feb 23, 2018 7:46 pm

FA9295 wrote:
Unless they legitimately need the A321LR version for flying extra miles, this is a complete waste of money.


You also get ~7,000lbs increase in weight. Even if you're not using the range, that gives you more passengers, more cargo, heavier interiors, etc.
 
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afterburner
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Re: Batik Air to convert entire A321neo order to A321LR

Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:20 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
toxtethogrady wrote:
I was under the impression that the Lion group was exclusively a Boeing franchise. If the A321 can make it into the line-up at a level of orders for 65 at Batik, then Boeing must be under a competitive challenge...


Lion Air orders 234 A320 Family aircraft

Of which a large chunk will go to Batik Air.

Lion Air has A330-300s as well. They are mainly used to fly Indonesian umrah pilgrims. During hajj seasons, they are chartered to fly hajj pilgrims from some African countries.
 
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FA9295
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Re: Batik Air to convert entire A321neo order to A321LR

Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:51 pm

mikejepp wrote:
FA9295 wrote:
Unless they legitimately need the A321LR version for flying extra miles, this is a complete waste of money.


You also get ~7,000lbs increase in weight. Even if you're not using the range, that gives you more passengers, more cargo, heavier interiors, etc.

Exactly.
 
ODwyerPW
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Re: Batik Air to convert entire A321neo order to A321LR

Sat Feb 24, 2018 1:00 am

So if folks everywhere start upgauging to A321LR.... without really needing the capability..... where will that put the frame's efficiency/fuel burn in relation to the 737-MAX10. I mean, you don't get Flex Galley's and Lavs with the A321LR, so stuffing 240pax is out.... So, you could end up with a plane that flies the same number of passengers as the MAX10, but using a bit more fuel.... paying a bit more up front.. paying a bit more in landing fees... etc...

All of the benefits of the LR come at a cost compared to the 321LR..... That's why I'm so surprised by the sheer number of upgauging.... Will Batik Air use this capability on the bulk of it's 65 A321 frames?
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BawliBooch
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Re: Batir Air to convert entire A321neo order to A321LR

Sat Feb 24, 2018 3:13 am

StTim wrote:
It would appear that the bottom end of the MoM is owned by Airbus. The question's are - how big is the upper end (767 replacement) and how much of that would a stretched/enhanced A321 snaffle away with lower capital cost and earlier time to market.


How soon can Airbus come out with a Lower MTOW Regional variant of the A330-800? I am guessing sooner than Boeing can have the 797.

The A338Regional can sweep the upper end (767 replacement) while the 321LR can handle the lower end of the MoM spectrum. Knock out blow.

ODwyerPW wrote:
So if folks everywhere start upgauging to A321LR.... without really needing the capability..... where will that put the frame's efficiency/fuel burn in relation to the 737-MAX10. I mean, you don't get Flex Galley's and Lavs with the A321LR, so stuffing 240pax is out.... So, you could end up with a plane that flies the same number of passengers as the MAX10, but using a bit more fuel.... paying a bit more up front.. paying a bit more in landing fees... etc...


Perhaps I missed a footnote in the specs, but has Airbus said that Flex Galleys and Lavs are not avail on the LR version? Doesnt make sense.

The airline can still have a 220/240 pax layout but cargo/bags will be limited. Range will be lower but still higher than what airlines would have with the std NEO version.
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ikolkyo
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Re: Batir Air to convert entire A321neo order to A321LR

Sat Feb 24, 2018 3:49 am

BawliBooch wrote:
StTim wrote:
It would appear that the bottom end of the MoM is owned by Airbus. The question's are - how big is the upper end (767 replacement) and how much of that would a stretched/enhanced A321 snaffle away with lower capital cost and earlier time to market.


How soon can Airbus come out with a Lower MTOW Regional variant of the A330-800? I am guessing sooner than Boeing can have the 797.

The A338Regional can sweep the upper end (767 replacement) while the 321LR can handle the lower end of the MoM spectrum. Knock out blow.

ODwyerPW wrote:
So if folks everywhere start upgauging to A321LR.... without really needing the capability..... where will that put the frame's efficiency/fuel burn in relation to the 737-MAX10. I mean, you don't get Flex Galley's and Lavs with the A321LR, so stuffing 240pax is out.... So, you could end up with a plane that flies the same number of passengers as the MAX10, but using a bit more fuel.... paying a bit more up front.. paying a bit more in landing fees... etc...


Perhaps I missed a footnote in the specs, but has Airbus said that Flex Galleys and Lavs are not avail on the LR version? Doesnt make sense.

The airline can still have a 220/240 pax layout but cargo/bags will be limited. Range will be lower but still higher than what airlines would have with the std NEO version.


A338 regional isn't going to cut it, it will be far too heavy for that.
 
Newbiepilot
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Re: Batik Air to convert entire A321neo order to A321LR

Sat Feb 24, 2018 4:27 am

YYZLGA wrote:
Is there any disadvantage to getting the LR instead of the standard NEO if you're not concerned about cargo capacity?


The A321LR has a 7,000 lbs MTOW increase. Airbus charges more for higher weight versions of its aircraft. Landing fees are also higher and gear and engine overhaul costs tend to be higher due to being rated for higher weights/thrust.

There are a variety of MTOW options already offered. Airlines usually only order the highest weight version they need. Extra capability costs more. Sometimes MTOW can be increased at a later date through software upgrades, although Airbus charges far more than just the cost of software to increase MTOW. It can be a pricey upgrade. I don’t know if all A321neos will be able to be converted to A321LRs in the future after delivery. Since it is only a 3% MTOW increase, that may be possible. Does anyone know?
 
RalXWB
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Re: Batik Air to convert entire A321neo order to A321LR

Sat Feb 24, 2018 8:46 am

I think so. ACF is an option now and will become standard for the NEO in 2020. The A321 Neo ACF is also the base for the LR.
 
cuban8
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Re: Batik Air to convert entire A321neo order to A321LR

Sat Feb 24, 2018 11:55 am

I tried to find on internet but not very successful. Does anyone know the list price difference between the A321Neo and the A321NeoLR? Thanks.
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planemanofnz
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Re: Batir Air to convert entire A321neo order to A321LR

Sat Feb 24, 2018 12:19 pm

AirbusA322 wrote:
Lion can now operate Bali to nearly every Aussie city with it.

afterburner wrote:
With A321LR I think every city in Australia will be reachable non-stop from Bali.

Don't forget New Zealand - it can do DPS - AKL and DPS - CHC too (though, with EK launching the former, I'm not so sure how keen they'd be).

Cheers,

C.
 
sand26391
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Re: Batik Air to convert entire A321neo order to A321LR

Sat Feb 24, 2018 1:14 pm

Theres a rumour that the airline will be starting flights to Bengaluru by the year end, after the success of its Chennai sector.
 
ODwyerPW
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Re: Batir Air to convert entire A321neo order to A321LR

Sat Feb 24, 2018 8:23 pm

BawliBooch wrote:

Perhaps I missed a footnote in the specs, but has Airbus said that Flex Galleys and Lavs are not avail on the LR version? Doesnt make sense.

The airline can still have a 220/240 pax layout but cargo/bags will be limited. Range will be lower but still higher than what airlines would have with the std NEO version.


They haven't said. But If you are trying to stuff 240pax into an A321 with some luggage... you aren't going to be able to fly long range and you certainly can't fit their luggage with all those fuel tanks in the hold... A guess you could think of it more as a HGW version of the A321NEO as well....... Were you can hold more weight, but sacrifice range.

Who wants to fly long range in a plane that doesn't have a galley sufficiently equipped to serve 240pax for 6+ hours? I guess that's why I thought Space Flex and Long Range were kind of mutually exclusive....
s
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flee
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Re: Batir Air to convert entire A321neo order to A321LR

Sun Feb 25, 2018 3:57 am

ODwyerPW wrote:
I guess that's why I thought Space Flex and Long Range were kind of mutually exclusive....

Not necessarily - an airline can still configure a Spaceflex aircraft for additional legroom and come up with something like 180-200 pax in a 2 class config.

Bottom line is that there is a great deal of flexibility for A321LR operators. If they don't require the range, they can remove the ACTs and carry more payload. If they don't need the pax capacity but want the long range, they can configure the seating for comfort and add more ACTs.
 
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BawliBooch
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Re: Batir Air to convert entire A321neo order to A321LR

Mon Feb 26, 2018 1:51 am

ODwyerPW wrote:
They haven't said. But If you are trying to stuff 240pax into an A321 with some luggage... you aren't going to be able to fly long range and you certainly can't fit their luggage with all those fuel tanks in the hold... A guess you could think of it more as a HGW version of the A321NEO as well....... Were you can hold more weight, but sacrifice range.

Who wants to fly long range in a plane that doesn't have a galley sufficiently equipped to serve 240pax for 6+ hours? I guess that's why I thought Space Flex and Long Range were kind of mutually exclusive....
s



Well, from what I have heard, Jetstar plans to configure their A321LR's with 232 seats (atleast the subfleet intended for Vietnam routes). I was told "12 seats more than their current A321", thats how I arrived at this figure.

Not sure that it will have the full 4100nm range at this config but range will still be more than a regular 321NEO.

I am more interested in finding out how they will squeeze in all the bags of 240 pax given that 3 pallet positions are lost to the Fuel Tanks?
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MaverickM11
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Re: Batik Air to convert entire A321neo order to A321LR

Mon Feb 26, 2018 2:04 am

FA9295 wrote:
Unless they legitimately need the A321LR version for flying extra miles, this is a complete waste of money.

:checkmark: For an airline whose average stage is around 1100km, this seems like an exercise in carrying unnecessary equipment around Indonesia
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TranscendZac
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Re: Batik Air to convert entire A321neo order to A321LR

Mon Feb 26, 2018 2:54 am

The A321LR is a perfectly timed aircraft. I expect Airbus to continue to capitalize on it for years. Boeing is too little too late with the 737-10. Maybe the MoM will be successful on the upper end. The 321LR can basically cover all existing narrowbody flights being flown today range wise and at a substantially reduced cost at that.
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chiad
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Re: Batik Air to convert entire A321neo order to A321LR

Mon Feb 26, 2018 7:23 am

TranscendZac wrote:
The A321LR is a perfectly timed aircraft. I expect Airbus to continue to capitalize on it for years. Boeing is too little too late with the 737-10. Maybe the MoM will be successful on the upper end. The 321LR can basically cover all existing narrowbody flights being flown today range wise and at a substantially reduced cost at that.


:checkmark:

But still you'll get the pop-ups that A321neoLR doesn't fully replace the B757, as if the B757 capabilities should be the properties to strive for.
:sarcastic:
 
flipdewaf
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Re: Batik Air to convert entire A321neo order to A321LR

Mon Feb 26, 2018 11:15 am

Maybe the residual/resale value on a more versatile aircraft is much greater than the added cost even if you don't use the additional capability?

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a7ala
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Re: Batir Air to convert entire A321neo order to A321LR

Mon Feb 26, 2018 11:11 pm

planemanofnz wrote:
AirbusA322 wrote:
Lion can now operate Bali to nearly every Aussie city with it.

afterburner wrote:
With A321LR I think every city in Australia will be reachable non-stop from Bali.

Don't forget New Zealand - it can do DPS - AKL and DPS - CHC too (though, with EK launching the former, I'm not so sure how keen they'd be).


Are you sure it has the range to do DPS-AKL/WLG/CHC? Looking at the airbus chart for the A321neo 1ACT shows a pretty steep payload drop beyond 3200Nm (which would be around max pax) - DPS-New Zealand is around 3600-3700Nm.
 
aviationjunky
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Re: Batik Air to convert entire A321neo order to A321LR

Mon Feb 26, 2018 11:26 pm

We've talked about this hundreds of times on here, Boeing missed their chance for a 757 replacement, so all the customers went with the next available option, the A321. They have the 73X, whenever they plan to actually release that. But it's entirely too late. Boeing lost it's 757 customer base to Airbus.
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afterburner
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Re: Batir Air to convert entire A321neo order to A321LR

Tue Feb 27, 2018 1:44 am

a7ala wrote:
planemanofnz wrote:
AirbusA322 wrote:
Lion can now operate Bali to nearly every Aussie city with it.

afterburner wrote:
With A321LR I think every city in Australia will be reachable non-stop from Bali.

Don't forget New Zealand - it can do DPS - AKL and DPS - CHC too (though, with EK launching the former, I'm not so sure how keen they'd be).


Are you sure it has the range to do DPS-AKL/WLG/CHC? Looking at the airbus chart for the A321neo 1ACT shows a pretty steep payload drop beyond 3200Nm (which would be around max pax) - DPS-New Zealand is around 3600-3700Nm.

We're talking about A321LR which has 3 auxiliary tanks. It may (I hope) reach NZ from DPS with decent payload.
 
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Re: Batir Air to convert entire A321neo order to A321LR

Tue Feb 27, 2018 2:21 am

LFLL wrote:
Here is the full order book for A321 neo according to Airbus website :


AERCAP 80
AIRASIA 100
AIR LEASE CORPORATION 144
AIR NEW ZEALAND 4
ALAFCO 10
AMERICAN AIRLINES 100
ANA HOLDINGS 22
ARKIA 4
ASIANA AIRLINES 25
AVIANCA 17
AVIATION CAPITAL GROUP 15
AZUL FINANCE LLC 10
BOC AVIATION 15
BRITISH AIRWAYS 10
CALC 1
CATHAY PACIFIC AIRCRAFT SERVICES LIMITED 32
CDB LEASING 32
CEBU AIR 32
CIT 1
DELTA AIR LINES 100
EASYJET 30
ETIHAD AIRWAYS 26
FRONTIER AIRLINES 34
GECAS 34
GULF AIR 17
HAWAIIAN AIRLINES 16
HONG KONG AVIATION CAPITAL 30
IBERIA 3
ICBC 13
INDIGO 25
JETBLUE AIRWAYS 60
JETSMART 14
KOREAN AIR 30
LATAM AIRLINES GROUP 19
LION AIR 65
LUFTHANSA 40
MIDDLE EAST AIRLINES 11
NILE AIR 2
NORWEGIAN 30
PEGASUS AIRLINES 43
PHILIPPINE AIRLINES 21
QANTAS AIRWAYS 45
QATAR AIRWAYS 50
SPRING AIRLINES 15
SWISS INTERNATIONAL AIR LINES 5
TAP AIR PORTUGAL 22
TURKISH AIRLINES 92
VIETJET 73
VOLARIS 34
WIZZ AIR HUNGARY 184
UNDISCLOSED 83


Total: 1920


Which airlines will convert some aircraft to A321LR ?

I would say : AA, DL, BA, B6, TK

I bet Cathay will be next one to convert to A321LR as well.
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Re: Batik Air to convert entire A321neo order to A321LR

Tue Feb 27, 2018 7:16 am

ODwyerPW wrote:
So if folks everywhere start upgauging to A321LR.... without really needing the capability..... where will that put the frame's efficiency/fuel burn in relation to the 737-MAX10. I mean, you don't get Flex Galley's and Lavs with the A321LR, so stuffing 240pax is out.... So, you could end up with a plane that flies the same number of passengers as the MAX10, but using a bit more fuel.... paying a bit more up front.. paying a bit more in landing fees... etc...

All of the benefits of the LR come at a cost compared to the 321LR..... That's why I'm so surprised by the sheer number of upgauging.... Will Batik Air use this capability on the bulk of it's 65 A321 frames?

Who said they can't use high density configuration together with extra fuel tank? There should still have enough room in the belly to fit all the passenger bags

ODwyerPW wrote:
BawliBooch wrote:

Perhaps I missed a footnote in the specs, but has Airbus said that Flex Galleys and Lavs are not avail on the LR version? Doesnt make sense.

The airline can still have a 220/240 pax layout but cargo/bags will be limited. Range will be lower but still higher than what airlines would have with the std NEO version.


They haven't said. But If you are trying to stuff 240pax into an A321 with some luggage... you aren't going to be able to fly long range and you certainly can't fit their luggage with all those fuel tanks in the hold... A guess you could think of it more as a HGW version of the A321NEO as well....... Were you can hold more weight, but sacrifice range.

Who wants to fly long range in a plane that doesn't have a galley sufficiently equipped to serve 240pax for 6+ hours? I guess that's why I thought Space Flex and Long Range were kind of mutually exclusive....
s

Well it obviously won't be able to fly like 9 hours with full 240 passengers, but I thought those extra fuel tank can still lift the plane for a little longer than a typical 321N in same config

BawliBooch wrote:
How soon can Airbus come out with a Lower MTOW Regional variant of the A330-800? I am guessing sooner than Boeing can have the 797.

The A338Regional can sweep the upper end (767 replacement) while the 321LR can handle the lower end of the MoM spectrum. Knock out blow.

I thought the reason why Airbus made the lower MTOW variant of 333 Regional instead of 339 Regional was because ceo is better for this kind of mission?
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Re: Batir Air to convert entire A321neo order to A321LR

Tue Feb 27, 2018 7:57 am

mjoelnir wrote:
Blankbarcode wrote:
Hopefully I'm wrong, but it seems Boeing has already missed their mark to justify the new clean sheet MOM aircraft. If potential customers are already going for the A321NEO/LR, what are the chances they would risk the reprecussions from canceling orders?

Best case scenario the MOM is well on its way behind the scenes, but airlines want planes *now*, and Airbus seems to be the only that can supply it feasibly.


If one looks as the MOM as a long time project and EIS around 2025, the aim could be on replacing A321LR when the time comes.


I'm afraid I don't agree. If Boeing could deliver a couple hundred between 2025 and 2028 most A321LR's are only going to be 5-10 years old max, I think Boeing need to hurry up, or miss the boat with this one...
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