Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
User avatar
flybynight
Topic Author
Posts: 1539
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2003 1:58 pm

Norwegian and Seattle

Fri Feb 23, 2018 7:13 pm

With the recent postings of Norwegian's financial losses as they grow, I am curious how one of their newer long distance markets is doing.

SEA has had a ton of international growth the last few years and into 2018. But Norwegian is flying to Seattle from London and competing against British Airways and Virgin (different airports however). Is there data at this point that indicates that Norwegian is doing well? It seems like it would be a very good market for Norwegian. When I've looked at their prices, they honestly haven't been as stellar as I had hoped, especially if you're contuining your travels actually into Norway.
Heia Norge!
 
User avatar
FA9295
Posts: 1770
Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2016 7:44 pm

Re: Norwegian and Seattle

Fri Feb 23, 2018 7:24 pm

It's just fascinating to me how Norwegian keeps on expanding, rapidly, mind you, yet their debt is so high... It's gonna backfire on them one day; I just know it... Also not to mention the current problems with the Boeing 787 engines...

Anyhow, I suspect that the route isn't really connecting very many people to other cities that Norwegian serves from LGW. The route is almost, if not all solely O&D traffic from Seattle, which could lead to some potential problems since they aren't in a joint-venture and/or alliance like Delta is with Virgin Atlantic.

Since Delta has a major operation hub at Seattle, it's much easier for Virgin Atlantic to fill up their plane since they don't just have to rely on traffic from Seattle. Unlike the Norwegian flight, which relies solely on traffic from Seattle, passengers on the Virgin Atlantic flight can connect through Seattle from other surrounding cities that Delta serves to and from Seattle.

I live in Portland, and Delta's summer 4x weekly seasonal PDX-LHR route is very expensive (although as of recently the prices for that flight have significantly dropped for departures in May, but then climb high once again at the start of June). So I would totally make the 2.5 hour drive to Seattle in order to save a good amount of money.
 
User avatar
PatrickZ80
Posts: 4564
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:33 am

Re: Norwegian and Seattle

Fri Feb 23, 2018 7:29 pm

I'd say they launched Seattle from the wrong airport, they should never have served it from Gatwick. The APD makes that they can't be as cheap as they could be from other airports, plus there's too much competition from the London area. I think Oslo - Seattle or Copenhagen - Seattle or perhaps Barcelona - Seattle would have done good, but route planning isn't their strongest side. They're too much focused on Gatwick and therefor forgetting about the rest.
 
User avatar
FA9295
Posts: 1770
Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2016 7:44 pm

Re: Norwegian and Seattle

Fri Feb 23, 2018 7:30 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
I'd say they launched Seattle from the wrong airport, they should never have served it from Gatwick. The APD makes that they can't be as cheap as they could be from other airports, plus there's too much competition from the London area. I think Oslo - Seattle or Copenhagen - Seattle or perhaps Barcelona - Seattle would have done good, but route planning isn't their strongest side. They're too much focused on Gatwick and therefor forgetting about the rest.

You're absolutely right. However, I doubt that Norwegian will do this in the near future, considering the fact that they want to expand long haul operations from Gatwick: https://skift.com/2017/03/02/norwegian- ... long-haul/
 
User avatar
VCEflyboy
Posts: 1237
Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2014 7:23 pm

Re: Norwegian and Seattle

Fri Feb 23, 2018 7:45 pm

Norwegian CEO visiting SEA hinted new routes will be coming in spring 2019 once the airline will add capacity. He named Rome, Paris and Barcellona as examples.
 
User avatar
jbpdx
Posts: 912
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2015 6:37 pm

Re: Norwegian and Seattle

Fri Feb 23, 2018 7:53 pm

FA9295 wrote:

I live in Portland, and Delta's summer 4x weekly seasonal PDX-LHR route is very expensive (although as of recently the prices for that flight have significantly dropped for departures in May, but then climb high once again at the start of June). So I would totally make the 2.5 hour drive to Seattle in order to save a good amount of money.



2.5 hours driving to Seattle? I’m not sure that’s possible at 3 am.
As long as Portland passengers keep flying out of Seattle, we’ll keep getting stiffed on nonstops—domestic and international. Some airlines expect Portland passengers to help fill their planes in Seattle—to hell with convenience; that’s why there are 30 roundtrips a day PDX-SEA.
I’d use Icelandair to London etc. and change in Reykjavik.
^PDX’s one-hit wonders: NK, SY, F9
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 6380
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

Re: Norwegian and Seattle

Fri Feb 23, 2018 8:26 pm

jbpdx wrote:
FA9295 wrote:

I live in Portland, and Delta's summer 4x weekly seasonal PDX-LHR route is very expensive (although as of recently the prices for that flight have significantly dropped for departures in May, but then climb high once again at the start of June). So I would totally make the 2.5 hour drive to Seattle in order to save a good amount of money.



2.5 hours driving to Seattle? I’m not sure that’s possible at 3 am.
As long as Portland passengers keep flying out of Seattle, we’ll keep getting stiffed on nonstops—domestic and international. Some airlines expect Portland passengers to help fill their planes in Seattle—to hell with convenience; that’s why there are 30 roundtrips a day PDX-SEA.
I’d use Icelandair to London etc. and change in Reykjavik.


Im trying to figure out how much money it would be worth to drive that distance to fly and park your car somewhere. I wouldnt do it for less than $750 for so.
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BRING BACK THE PAYWALL!!!!
 
User avatar
PatrickZ80
Posts: 4564
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:33 am

Re: Norwegian and Seattle

Fri Feb 23, 2018 8:29 pm

FA9295 wrote:
It's just fascinating to me how Norwegian keeps on expanding, rapidly, mind you, yet their debt is so high... It's gonna backfire on them one day; I just know it... Also not to mention the current problems with the Boeing 787 engines...

Anyhow, I suspect that the route isn't really connecting very many people to other cities that Norwegian serves from LGW. The route is almost, if not all solely O&D traffic from Seattle, which could lead to some potential problems since they aren't in a joint-venture and/or alliance like Delta is with Virgin Atlantic.

Since Delta has a major operation hub at Seattle, it's much easier for Virgin Atlantic to fill up their plane since they don't just have to rely on traffic from Seattle. Unlike the Norwegian flight, which relies solely on traffic from Seattle, passengers on the Virgin Atlantic flight can connect through Seattle from other surrounding cities that Delta serves to and from Seattle.

I live in Portland, and Delta's summer 4x weekly seasonal PDX-LHR route is very expensive (although as of recently the prices for that flight have significantly dropped for departures in May, but then climb high once again at the start of June). So I would totally make the 2.5 hour drive to Seattle in order to save a good amount of money.


Of course that doesn't stop anyone from self-connecting. From Portland there are plenty of options for that, like for example Southwest to Los Angeles, Oakland or Denver, Spirit to Chicago, Frontier to Austin or Denver or JetBlue to New York JFK. You can mix and match your own connection.

FA9295 wrote:
You're absolutely right. However, I doubt that Norwegian will do this in the near future, considering the fact that they want to expand long haul operations from Gatwick: https://skift.com/2017/03/02/norwegian- ... long-haul/


As I've said before, a very stupid decision. This is the obvious proof they fail at route planning, even I could do better. All other hubs have got the advantage of APD-free self-connecting, that's where their strength is supposed to be. Norwegian is failing to see that.
 
clrd4t8koff
Posts: 1772
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2005 3:57 am

Re: Norwegian and Seattle

Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:00 pm

FA9295 wrote:
Since Delta has a major operation hub at Seattle, it's much easier for Virgin Atlantic to fill up their plane since they don't just have to rely on traffic from Seattle. Unlike the Norwegian flight, which relies solely on traffic from Seattle, passengers on the Virgin Atlantic flight can connect through Seattle from other surrounding cities that Delta serves to and from Seattle.


The challenge to this statement is that at least 75% of Delta's feed from SEA comes from cities that already have have non-stop service to LHR already (PHX, SAN, LAX, SJC, LAS, SFO, YVR, SLC, DEN, etc). Yes, there are smaller stations like BOI, GEG and ANC that help with a tiny amount of traffic, but I don't think DL/VS are after the cheap bargain hunting connecting crowd. They're after SEA O&D, which is what BA & DY are after also. I just don't see how 3 carriers can survive on SEA-LON.
 
717atOGG
Posts: 902
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2015 2:10 am

Re: Norwegian and Seattle

Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:04 pm

VCEflyboy wrote:
Norwegian CEO visiting SEA hinted new routes will be coming in spring 2019 once the airline will add capacity. He named Rome, Paris and Barcellona as examples.

I haven't heard that. Bjorn Kjos unoficially announced at OSL that there would be a OSL-SEA route starting in Fall 2018. He's been quiet on it ever since, so if it does happen, it'd probably be an April announcement, September start like with LGW-SEA. I doubt DY would add CDG-SEA with AF going back on the route next month, but a summer seasonal 2-3 weekly SEA-FCO or BCN could do well IMO. Load factor data hasn't been released for LGW-SEA yet, thus I don't know how it's doing, but tickets are expensive-ish considering it's DY, so it's most likely doing good.
A320/321, A332, 712, 73G/8/9ER, 744, 752/3, 764, E145, E175, CR9
 
WaywardMemphian
Posts: 1660
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2014 9:05 pm

Re: Norwegian and Seattle

Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:16 pm

Didn't he say DEN was outperforming SEA and that BCN or MAD for DEN Summer 2019
 
skipness1E
Posts: 4935
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:18 am

Re: Norwegian and Seattle

Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:27 pm

Sorry @patrickz80 you keep banging on about APD meaning launching flights from Gatwick is a bad idea. London is (one of) the biggest destinations on Earth which is why DY have a fleet of B789s based!!! APD is a side issue, it’s a cost of doing business now, who cares? There are way more factors than APD to consider, some markets with no APD suffer from price gouging simply because they can!

And no mate, having read some of the bizarre stuff you come out with, no, you couldn’t do better......
 
User avatar
VCEflyboy
Posts: 1237
Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2014 7:23 pm

Re: Norwegian and Seattle

Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:48 pm

 
dia77
Posts: 696
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2000 3:49 am

Re: Norwegian and Seattle

Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:51 pm

WaywardMemphian wrote:
Didn't he say DEN was outperforming SEA and that BCN or MAD for DEN Summer 2019


This actually came from the CCO, Thomas Ramdahl: https://www.bizjournals.com/denver/news ... other.html

Quoting the article since it requires a subscription: "The airline launched its route from Denver International Airport to London in September, and sales have been meeting expectations and running ahead of those in Seattle, which launched on the same day as the route to DIA, chief commercial officer Thomas Ramdahl said. "
 
LH707330
Posts: 2460
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2012 11:27 pm

Re: Norwegian and Seattle

Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:18 pm

jbpdx wrote:
FA9295 wrote:

I live in Portland, and Delta's summer 4x weekly seasonal PDX-LHR route is very expensive (although as of recently the prices for that flight have significantly dropped for departures in May, but then climb high once again at the start of June). So I would totally make the 2.5 hour drive to Seattle in order to save a good amount of money.

2.5 hours driving to Seattle? I’m not sure that’s possible at 3 am.

Easy-peasy, it's only 165 miles from Portland to SEA airport, 2.5 hours is an average of 66 mph. Downtown to downtown at 173 miles gives you 69 mph, totally doable at 3 am.
 
User avatar
psa1011
Posts: 522
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 9:37 pm

Re: Norwegian and Seattle

Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:21 pm

LH707330 wrote:
jbpdx wrote:
FA9295 wrote:

I live in Portland, and Delta's summer 4x weekly seasonal PDX-LHR route is very expensive (although as of recently the prices for that flight have significantly dropped for departures in May, but then climb high once again at the start of June). So I would totally make the 2.5 hour drive to Seattle in order to save a good amount of money.

2.5 hours driving to Seattle? I’m not sure that’s possible at 3 am.

Easy-peasy, it's only 165 miles from Portland to SEA airport, 2.5 hours is an average of 66 mph. Downtown to downtown at 173 miles gives you 69 mph, totally doable at 3 am.


So that gets you to SEA at 530AM. Guess you're going to spend the day plane spotting until the LHR flight departs;)
 
CeddP
Posts: 48
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 12:04 am

Re: Norwegian and Seattle

Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:52 pm

Well, talking about route planning at Norwegian, might want to listen to that interview...
http://soundcloud.com/norwegianonair/ep ... tthew-wood
 
User avatar
FA9295
Posts: 1770
Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2016 7:44 pm

Re: Norwegian and Seattle

Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:56 pm

jbpdx wrote:
FA9295 wrote:

I live in Portland, and Delta's summer 4x weekly seasonal PDX-LHR route is very expensive (although as of recently the prices for that flight have significantly dropped for departures in May, but then climb high once again at the start of June). So I would totally make the 2.5 hour drive to Seattle in order to save a good amount of money.



2.5 hours driving to Seattle? I’m not sure that’s possible at 3 am.
As long as Portland passengers keep flying out of Seattle, we’ll keep getting stiffed on nonstops—domestic and international. Some airlines expect Portland passengers to help fill their planes in Seattle—to hell with convenience; that’s why there are 30 roundtrips a day PDX-SEA.
I’d use Icelandair to London etc. and change in Reykjavik.

Oops. I figured that since SEA is a little further south than the city center of Seattle that it would be less of a drive. Probably closer to 3 hours.
 
wedgetail737
Posts: 5681
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2003 8:44 am

Re: Norwegian and Seattle

Sat Feb 24, 2018 12:36 am

I think if SEA-LGW was performing disastrously up to now, DY (or DI) would have pulled out by now. I think DY will see how the summer season will be on the route.
 
User avatar
ER757
Posts: 4146
Joined: Tue May 10, 2005 10:16 am

Re: Norwegian and Seattle

Sat Feb 24, 2018 12:39 am

While I am sure the loads will be better come summer tourist and cruise season, neither DY nor VS are doing very well on their London/Seattle flights from the numbers I've seen recently. BA has much higher LF's than the other two. I volunteer at SEA once a week and we get a list of inbound international flights with the number of seats on the aircraft and the number of passengers on board - DY and VS are both hovering in the 50-60% LF range right now while BA is closer to 75-80%. This was the info for flights this week - that being said, late February isn't exactly high season here.
On a semi-related note - DL is doing quite well on most, if not all, of their flights from Asia (I know many members here are curious about how DL's SEA hub is doing). On lanes where they compete with Asian carriers, they are pretty much wiping the floor with them - that doesn't say how much money they are making of course, but there's lot of bums in the seats
 
wedgetail737
Posts: 5681
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2003 8:44 am

Re: Norwegian and Seattle

Sat Feb 24, 2018 3:18 am

ER757 wrote:
While I am sure the loads will be better come summer tourist and cruise season, neither DY nor VS are doing very well on their London/Seattle flights from the numbers I've seen recently. BA has much higher LF's than the other two. I volunteer at SEA once a week and we get a list of inbound international flights with the number of seats on the aircraft and the number of passengers on board - DY and VS are both hovering in the 50-60% LF range right now while BA is closer to 75-80%. This was the info for flights this week - that being said, late February isn't exactly high season here.
On a semi-related note - DL is doing quite well on most, if not all, of their flights from Asia (I know many members here are curious about how DL's SEA hub is doing). On lanes where they compete with Asian carriers, they are pretty much wiping the floor with them - that doesn't say how much money they are making of course, but there's lot of bums in the seats


I think a lot of passengers know that the Asian carriers have far-superior service than DL. Also, the majority of the Asian travel agencies book on the Asian carriers.
 
alan3
Posts: 454
Joined: Sat Apr 12, 2014 6:13 am

Re: Norwegian and Seattle

Sat Feb 24, 2018 3:19 am

Didn't SAS fly to Seattle for a while from CPH in the 80's/early 90's? Why did they stop?

The Pacific Northwest doesn't really have a lot of European direct flights....PDX down to just 1 flight I think since LH stopped its PDX service.
 
BlatantEcho
Posts: 2132
Joined: Wed Sep 27, 2000 10:11 am

Re: Norwegian and Seattle

Sat Feb 24, 2018 3:30 am

PDX has four flights to Europe:

Daily, year round to AMS on delta
Summer seasonal to LHR, FRA, KEF on delta, condor and icelandair respectively.


To stay on topic with this thread - as much as it absolutely abhores me personally to connect in Seattle via airplane, let alone drive!!, I do know people do it still. A couple people from my office do still :/

No idea how Norwegian is doing, but for the price, I’m sure some people will do strange things to save a few dollars
 
910A
Posts: 1921
Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2015 2:11 am

Re: Norwegian and Seattle

Sat Feb 24, 2018 3:39 am

alan3 wrote:
Didn't SAS fly to Seattle for a while from CPH in the 80's/early 90's? Why did they stop?


SAS started service to SEA back in 1966. When I was flying between SEA-SFO in the early 70's, my preferred flight WA #720 always had numerous connecting passengers onboard. Service stopped back in 2009 due to the worldwide recession. https://www.seattletimes.com/life/trave ... n-flights/
 
wedgetail737
Posts: 5681
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2003 8:44 am

Re: Norwegian and Seattle

Sat Feb 24, 2018 3:58 am

910A wrote:
alan3 wrote:
Didn't SAS fly to Seattle for a while from CPH in the 80's/early 90's? Why did they stop?


SAS started service to SEA back in 1966. When I was flying between SEA-SFO in the early 70's, my preferred flight WA #720 always had numerous connecting passengers onboard. Service stopped back in 2009 due to the worldwide recession. https://www.seattletimes.com/life/trave ... n-flights/


Icelandair took over fairly quickly after SAS left.
 
User avatar
seablue125
Posts: 5
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2016 6:32 am

Re: Norwegian and Seattle

Sat Feb 24, 2018 6:25 am

A family member of mine takes DY SEA-LGW-vv when travelling to the UK and Ireland. The airfare value is incredible; and with a reasonable number of good price points and service levels depending on one's budget. Considering the number of competing carriers between SEA and Europe, the sole drawback to the service is having to fly to LGW - from where there are currently few connections to other DY destinations. But developing a route network from a new hub takes time. The loads are light; but again, it takes time to get the word out; especially to DY's target audience (BA & VS/DL clients first; and to a lesser extent, FI clients who don't want to stop at KEF). Yet, there wasn't much fanfare or fireworks when DY came to SEA in the Fall of 2017 (being overshadowed by many other pressing local news; plus the ongoing battle royal between DL & AS). It requires very little stretch of the imagination to think that in the long-term, Norwegian Air wants to evolve and become the international equivalent of Southwest Airlines; and it could very well do just that... given time.
 
User avatar
reidar76
Posts: 572
Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2015 5:16 pm

Re: Norwegian and Seattle

Sat Feb 24, 2018 1:11 pm

seablue125 wrote:
A family member of mine takes DY SEA-LGW-vv when travelling to the UK and Ireland. The airfare value is incredible; and with a reasonable number of good price points and service levels depending on one's budget. Considering the number of competing carriers between SEA and Europe, the sole drawback to the service is having to fly to LGW - from where there are currently few connections to other DY destinations. But developing a route network from a new hub takes time.


Yes, Norwegian serve 45 destinations from LGW, but only a dozen destinations (mainly Scandinavian) have high enough frequency to be suitable for onward connections.

BUT... Americans may not know that Norwegian and Easyjet has an agreement that allows transfer between Norwegian long haul flights and Easyjet flights at LGW. You just have to order your tickets thru easyjet.com. Easyjet is the largest operator at LGW and will connect you to any destination not served by Norwegian. Easyjet is the second largest LCC in Europe, and LGW is their biggest base.

You can even self-connect to any airline at LGW. The airport company itself provides the Gatwick Connects service, that will handle your transfer between competing airlines. If you lose your onward flight, you will get a seat on the next available flight at no additional cost. More info on: https://www.gatwickairport.com/at-the-a ... kconnects/
 
User avatar
PatrickZ80
Posts: 4564
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:33 am

Re: Norwegian and Seattle

Sat Feb 24, 2018 7:46 pm

reidar76 wrote:
Yes, Norwegian serve 45 destinations from LGW, but only a dozen destinations (mainly Scandinavian) have high enough frequency to be suitable for onward connections.

BUT... Americans may not know that Norwegian and Easyjet has an agreement that allows transfer between Norwegian long haul flights and Easyjet flights at LGW. You just have to order your tickets thru easyjet.com. Easyjet is the largest operator at LGW and will connect you to any destination not served by Norwegian. Easyjet is the second largest LCC in Europe, and LGW is their biggest base.

You can even self-connect to any airline at LGW. The airport company itself provides the Gatwick Connects service, that will handle your transfer between competing airlines. If you lose your onward flight, you will get a seat on the next available flight at no additional cost. More info on: https://www.gatwickairport.com/at-the-a ... kconnects/


True, but the fact remains that Gatwick is subject to APD and therefor unattractive to self-transfer. The EasyJet connections are just an add-up of both individual ticket prices with luggage forwarding, but they're not interline and therefor still subject to APD. People that fly Norwegian are price-sensitive and Gatwick is expensive, that doesn't go well together. The only thing that can make Gatwick work is to get rid of the APD. As long as the APD is in place Oslo and Copenhagen should be Norwegians primary long haul bases, not Gatwick.
 
User avatar
jbpdx
Posts: 912
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2015 6:37 pm

Re: Norwegian and Seattle

Mon Feb 26, 2018 9:58 am

LH707330 wrote:
Easy-peasy, it's only 165 miles from Portland to SEA airport, 2.5 hours is an average of 66 mph. Downtown to downtown at 173 miles gives you 69 mph, totally doable at 3 am.




Ha. That’s a load of $h|t. You must not know I-5.
^PDX’s one-hit wonders: NK, SY, F9
 
NozPerry
Posts: 144
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2015 12:12 am

Re: Norwegian and Seattle

Mon Feb 26, 2018 11:19 am

reidar76 wrote:
seablue125 wrote:
A family member of mine takes DY SEA-LGW-vv when travelling to the UK and Ireland. The airfare value is incredible; and with a reasonable number of good price points and service levels depending on one's budget. Considering the number of competing carriers between SEA and Europe, the sole drawback to the service is having to fly to LGW - from where there are currently few connections to other DY destinations. But developing a route network from a new hub takes time.


Yes, Norwegian serve 45 destinations from LGW, but only a dozen destinations (mainly Scandinavian) have high enough frequency to be suitable for onward connections.

BUT... Americans may not know that Norwegian and Easyjet has an agreement that allows transfer between Norwegian long haul flights and Easyjet flights at LGW. You just have to order your tickets thru easyjet.com. Easyjet is the largest operator at LGW and will connect you to any destination not served by Norwegian. Easyjet is the second largest LCC in Europe, and LGW is their biggest base.

You can even self-connect to any airline at LGW. The airport company itself provides the Gatwick Connects service, that will handle your transfer between competing airlines. If you lose your onward flight, you will get a seat on the next available flight at no additional cost. More info on: https://www.gatwickairport.com/at-the-a ... kconnects/


Worldwide by Easyjet costs more money than just booking the flight through and through with Norwegian for example, especially to the east coast. The issue being with them is that Norwegian will wait for connecting passengers from SH-SH, SH-LH etc up to 45 minutes, when pressed about this easyjet said they wouldn’t wait for them as it would impact their OTP. Which is all well if you have multiple flights a day to your destination.
I love the feel of a Go Around in the morning
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Posts: 13982
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: Norwegian and Seattle

Tue Feb 27, 2018 12:18 am

PatrickZ80 wrote:
I'd say they launched Seattle from the wrong airport, they should never have served it from Gatwick. The APD makes that they can't be as cheap as they could be from other airports, plus there's too much competition from the London area. I think Oslo - Seattle or Copenhagen - Seattle or perhaps Barcelona - Seattle would have done good, but route planning isn't their strongest side. They're too much focused on Gatwick and therefor forgetting about the rest.
PatrickZ80 wrote:
As I've said before, a very stupid decision. This is the obvious proof they fail at route planning, even I could do better. All other hubs have got the advantage of APD-free self-connecting, that's where their strength is supposed to be. Norwegian is failing to see that.

...out of curiosity, do you have any idea what the disparity in O&D is between LON and the other gateways you mentioned, for US traffic?

The answer's clearly "no," but I figured I'd ask anyway.

There's a REASON that they're essentially betting the farm on LON, and being obsessed with APD is not one of them.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
User avatar
PatrickZ80
Posts: 4564
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:33 am

Re: Norwegian and Seattle

Tue Feb 27, 2018 11:10 am

LAX772LR wrote:
...out of curiosity, do you have any idea what the disparity in O&D is between LON and the other gateways you mentioned, for US traffic?

The answer's clearly "no," but I figured I'd ask anyway.

There's a REASON that they're essentially betting the farm on LON, and being obsessed with APD is not one of them.


True, there is a lot of demand to/from London. I do not deny that, however they can look at that demand from another point of view.

Let me first give you an example of where they're doing it right: Bangkok. Norwegian flies to Bangkok from Oslo, Stockholm and Copenhagen but not from London. Does that mean there isn't any demand between Bangkok and London? Of course there is, and they do actually capture some of that demand. After all, Oslo, Stockholm and Copenhagen all got feeder flights to the UK.

Another example, Norwegian flies to New York from both Gatwick and Copenhagen. Then if you see London - Copenhagen and Copenhagen - New York added up much cheaper than direct Gatwick - New York, go figure out what the popular option is. I know what I would do.
 
User avatar
flybynight
Topic Author
Posts: 1539
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2003 1:58 pm

Re: Norwegian and Seattle

Wed Feb 28, 2018 5:50 pm

jbpdx wrote:
LH707330 wrote:
Easy-peasy, it's only 165 miles from Portland to SEA airport, 2.5 hours is an average of 66 mph. Downtown to downtown at 173 miles gives you 69 mph, totally doable at 3 am.




Ha. That’s a load of $h|t. You must not know I-5.


At 3AM you can certainly do PDX-SEA in under 3 hours on I-5. From just north of Vancouver, WA to Olympic, except through Centralia area, the speed limit is 70 to help you drive a little faster.
I've done this drive at all times of the day under 3 hours. Now if you stop for a snack in Longview or somewhere, that will of course throw things off.
Heia Norge!
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Posts: 13982
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: Norwegian and Seattle

Thu Mar 01, 2018 9:20 am

PatrickZ80 wrote:
True, there is a lot of demand to/from London. I do not deny that, however they can look at that demand from another point of view.

Let me first give you an example of where they're doing it right: Bangkok. Norwegian flies to Bangkok from Oslo, Stockholm and Copenhagen but not from London. Does that mean there isn't any demand between Bangkok and London? Of course there is, and they do actually capture some of that demand. After all, Oslo, Stockholm and Copenhagen all got feeder flights to the UK.

Another example, Norwegian flies to New York from both Gatwick and Copenhagen. Then if you see London - Copenhagen and Copenhagen - New York added up much cheaper than direct Gatwick - New York, go figure out what the popular option is. I know what I would do.

NEWSFLASH: Seattle is not Bangkok nor New York City. :roll:

The world's 2nd most visited vacation destination and the world's 2nd busiest aviation metro by pax?
Um, yeahhh, they're a reason that those get a larger variance in gateways served.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
User avatar
Eindhoven
Posts: 194
Joined: Sat Dec 31, 2016 1:21 pm

Re: Norwegian and Seattle

Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:30 pm

LGW does not work because nobody flies EIN-LGW. If you want to get from EIN to LGW the best option is HV EIN-CPH and then DY CPH-LGW. But if you have to go to CPH anyway to get to LGW then you can better fly long haul from CPH instead of LGW.
 
F9Animal
Posts: 4569
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 7:13 am

Re: Norwegian and Seattle

Fri Mar 02, 2018 7:01 pm

wedgetail737 wrote:
I think if SEA-LGW was performing disastrously up to now, DY (or DI) would have pulled out by now. I think DY will see how the summer season will be on the route.


Bingo. We know SEA is pumping hard in the summer, especially during cruise season. I do suspect they will see alot of cheeks in seats this summer.
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
jumbojet
Posts: 2957
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 3:01 am

Re: Norwegian and Seattle

Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:12 pm

wedgetail737 wrote:
[
I think a lot of passengers know that the Asian carriers have far-superior service than DL. Also, the majority of the Asian travel agencies book on the Asian carriers.


I think your statement is overblown. I think DL has largely closed the gap and the service differences are minimal at best. I do a lot of USA to Korea and USA to China on DL metal on you see plenty of Korean/Chinese nationals on the Delta planes. In fact, I would argue that DL is better is some regards then its Asian competitors, especially when it comes to the hard product.
 
Chugach
Posts: 1374
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 2004 10:18 am

Re: Norwegian and Seattle

Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:23 pm

flybynight wrote:
jbpdx wrote:
LH707330 wrote:
Easy-peasy, it's only 165 miles from Portland to SEA airport, 2.5 hours is an average of 66 mph. Downtown to downtown at 173 miles gives you 69 mph, totally doable at 3 am.




Ha. That’s a load of $h|t. You must not know I-5.


At 3AM you can certainly do PDX-SEA in under 3 hours on I-5. From just north of Vancouver, WA to Olympic, except through Centralia area, the speed limit is 70 to help you drive a little faster.
I've done this drive at all times of the day under 3 hours. Now if you stop for a snack in Longview or somewhere, that will of course throw things off.


I’ve done downtown Seattle to downtown Portland in 2.5 hours flat on a weekend morning. It is possible, but you have to do it at an off-peak hour.

Otherwise it’s pretty much guaranteed you’ll hit traffic on both ends of the drive.
 
jumbojet
Posts: 2957
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 3:01 am

Re: Norwegian and Seattle

Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:50 pm

Another thing, with Norwegian rumored to be expanding at SEA, everyone on Anet keeps saying that the FIS at SEA is beyond bursting at its seems, at least during peak international arrival times. So is DY gonna add these flights at odd hours or say screw it and add to the disaster that is already the SEA FIS?
 
wedgetail737
Posts: 5681
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2003 8:44 am

Re: Norwegian and Seattle

Sat Mar 03, 2018 1:11 am

jumbojet wrote:
Another thing, with Norwegian rumored to be expanding at SEA, everyone on Anet keeps saying that the FIS at SEA is beyond bursting at its seems, at least during peak international arrival times. So is DY gonna add these flights at odd hours or say screw it and add to the disaster that is already the SEA FIS?


Not just the FIS is at capacity, but there's no gate space either at peak times.
 
wedgetail737
Posts: 5681
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2003 8:44 am

Re: Norwegian and Seattle

Sat Mar 03, 2018 1:14 am

jumbojet wrote:
wedgetail737 wrote:
[
I think a lot of passengers know that the Asian carriers have far-superior service than DL. Also, the majority of the Asian travel agencies book on the Asian carriers.


I think your statement is overblown. I think DL has largely closed the gap and the service differences are minimal at best. I do a lot of USA to Korea and USA to China on DL metal on you see plenty of Korean/Chinese nationals on the Delta planes. In fact, I would argue that DL is better is some regards then its Asian competitors, especially when it comes to the hard product.


That could be. I'm basing my opinion what my work colleagues have told me. So, yeah, take it with a grain of salt. I am interested in service comparisons...did you fly Asiana or KE on your travels?

My wife flew SEA-CDG on a business trip last year and she told me DL was fine.
 
jumbojet
Posts: 2957
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 3:01 am

Re: Norwegian and Seattle

Sat Mar 03, 2018 2:38 am

wedgetail737 wrote:
jumbojet wrote:
wedgetail737 wrote:
[
I think a lot of passengers know that the Asian carriers have far-superior service than DL. Also, the majority of the Asian travel agencies book on the Asian carriers.


I think your statement is overblown. I think DL has largely closed the gap and the service differences are minimal at best. I do a lot of USA to Korea and USA to China on DL metal on you see plenty of Korean/Chinese nationals on the Delta planes. In fact, I would argue that DL is better is some regards then its Asian competitors, especially when it comes to the hard product.


That could be. I'm basing my opinion what my work colleagues have told me. So, yeah, take it with a grain of salt. I am interested in service comparisons...did you fly Asiana or KE on your travels?

My wife flew SEA-CDG on a business trip last year and she told me DL was fine.


I've flown Korean in prestige class countless times on many different aircraft. The A380 is horrible, most uncomfortable business class seat I've ever sat in and same goes for the Korean 777 BE seat. Cabins are way to warm and the food mediocre. The flight attendants are very good. Bathrooms always clean and love the bar on the upper deck of the A380. The new BE seat on the Korean 748 is excellent and these are the only birds, if I remember correctly, that have casper vents.

I've flown ANA on the 787-800 in business class, HND-SIN. The seat wasn't even lie-flat and the config was 2-2-2 in BE. I did like the fact that they had very expensive Japanese miniatures on the plane, I think it was Hibiki. Its the little things that matter!

China Southern just last week. A very dated A332. seats weren't lie-flat and were 2-2-2 though the flight attendants were absolutely amazing.
 
User avatar
bluefltspecial
Posts: 581
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2013 6:27 pm

Re: Norwegian and Seattle

Sat Mar 03, 2018 6:31 am

jumbojet wrote:
... the Korean 748 is excellent and these are the only birds, if I remember correctly, that have casper vents....


You mean Gasper Vents?
Save a horse, ride a Fly-boy....
 
PlymSpotter
Posts: 10824
Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2004 7:32 am

Re: Norwegian and Seattle

Sat Mar 03, 2018 7:21 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
I'd say they launched Seattle from the wrong airport, they should never have served it from Gatwick. The APD makes that they can't be as cheap as they could be from other airports, plus there's too much competition from the London area. I think Oslo - Seattle or Copenhagen - Seattle or perhaps Barcelona - Seattle would have done good, but route planning isn't their strongest side. They're too much focused on Gatwick and therefor forgetting about the rest.


Using the same example of connections (as you mentioned with the UK via Scandinavia to BKK), then it makes logical sense to funnel the amalgamated demand from CPH, OSL, ARN etc... through LGW. And of course when booked on a single ticket, as Norwegian offer, these passengers are not subjected to APD, so there is no competitive disadvantage.
...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
 
User avatar
PatrickZ80
Posts: 4564
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:33 am

Re: Norwegian and Seattle

Sat Mar 03, 2018 7:48 pm

PlymSpotter wrote:
PatrickZ80 wrote:
I'd say they launched Seattle from the wrong airport, they should never have served it from Gatwick. The APD makes that they can't be as cheap as they could be from other airports, plus there's too much competition from the London area. I think Oslo - Seattle or Copenhagen - Seattle or perhaps Barcelona - Seattle would have done good, but route planning isn't their strongest side. They're too much focused on Gatwick and therefor forgetting about the rest.


Using the same example of connections (as you mentioned with the UK via Scandinavia to BKK), then it makes logical sense to funnel the amalgamated demand from CPH, OSL, ARN etc... through LGW. And of course when booked on a single ticket, as Norwegian offer, these passengers are not subjected to APD, so there is no competitive disadvantage.


If all their passengers would originate from those airports, then yes. But that's not the case. There are a lot of places in Europe that Norwegian doesn't serve from Gatwick, but where there are people that want to fly Norwegian. Their feeder deal with EasyJet will not help them out because it's just adding up both fares so you still pay APD.

I'm from the Netherlands myself, my local airport is Amsterdam. Norwegian doesn't fly Amsterdam - Gatwick. Sure I can get to Gatwick, no problem at all. EasyJet offers multiple flights a day. But I cannot connect to Norwegian to Seattle on one ticket, so I still end up paying APD. The other solution is to first fly from Amsterdam to Copenhagen, then from Copenhagen to Gatwick and finally from Gatwick to Seattle. What a detour that is!

All those problems wouldn't exist if they made Copenhagen their main long haul base. Denmark doesn't have APD, so on top of their own feeder flights from all over Europe they also take feed from other airlines flying to Copenhagen. At Gatwick that makes the flight expensive because of the APD, at Copenhagen it doesn't.
 
User avatar
Eindhoven
Posts: 194
Joined: Sat Dec 31, 2016 1:21 pm

Re: Norwegian and Seattle

Sat Mar 03, 2018 8:08 pm

Next month I will fly EIN-CPH-LAX and back LAX-BCN-EIN, both on HV/DY. This is doable because CPH and BCN (and ARN for that matter) have good connections to EIN on HV, but LGW is not connected to EIN. If DY would start LGW-EIN then I would be happy to fly them and transfer in LGW.
 
PlymSpotter
Posts: 10824
Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2004 7:32 am

Re: Norwegian and Seattle

Sat Mar 03, 2018 9:10 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
PlymSpotter wrote:
PatrickZ80 wrote:
I'd say they launched Seattle from the wrong airport, they should never have served it from Gatwick. The APD makes that they can't be as cheap as they could be from other airports, plus there's too much competition from the London area. I think Oslo - Seattle or Copenhagen - Seattle or perhaps Barcelona - Seattle would have done good, but route planning isn't their strongest side. They're too much focused on Gatwick and therefor forgetting about the rest.


Using the same example of connections (as you mentioned with the UK via Scandinavia to BKK), then it makes logical sense to funnel the amalgamated demand from CPH, OSL, ARN etc... through LGW. And of course when booked on a single ticket, as Norwegian offer, these passengers are not subjected to APD, so there is no competitive disadvantage.


If all their passengers would originate from those airports, then yes. But that's not the case. There are a lot of places in Europe that Norwegian doesn't serve from Gatwick, but where there are people that want to fly Norwegian. Their feeder deal with EasyJet will not help them out because it's just adding up both fares so you still pay APD.

I'm from the Netherlands myself, my local airport is Amsterdam. Norwegian doesn't fly Amsterdam - Gatwick. Sure I can get to Gatwick, no problem at all. EasyJet offers multiple flights a day. But I cannot connect to Norwegian to Seattle on one ticket, so I still end up paying APD. The other solution is to first fly from Amsterdam to Copenhagen, then from Copenhagen to Gatwick and finally from Gatwick to Seattle. What a detour that is!

All those problems wouldn't exist if they made Copenhagen their main long haul base. Denmark doesn't have APD, so on top of their own feeder flights from all over Europe they also take feed from other airlines flying to Copenhagen. At Gatwick that makes the flight expensive because of the APD, at Copenhagen it doesn't.


This misses the whole point of the flight. The LON to SEA/YVR/PDX travel market is huge - most likely bigger than all of Scandinavia's demand placed together. So those people are paying that APD no matter what, which makes your argument irrelevant. The additional traffic via Norwegian's own feed is basically an APD free bonus and anything which comes in via easyJet's 'feed' is frankly a miracle - the volumes are minuscule here and mostly higher yielding traffic which doesn't care about the price let alone APD.
...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
 
arcticcruiser
Posts: 489
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2017 2:16 pm

Re: Norwegian and Seattle

Sat Mar 03, 2018 10:43 pm

bluefltspecial wrote:
jumbojet wrote:
... the Korean 748 is excellent and these are the only birds, if I remember correctly, that have casper vents....


You mean Gasper Vents?


I don’t want to sit anywhere near Caper’s vent...
 
User avatar
PatrickZ80
Posts: 4564
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:33 am

Re: Norwegian and Seattle

Sun Mar 04, 2018 8:31 am

PlymSpotter wrote:
This misses the whole point of the flight. The LON to SEA/YVR/PDX travel market is huge - most likely bigger than all of Scandinavia's demand placed together. So those people are paying that APD no matter what, which makes your argument irrelevant. The additional traffic via Norwegian's own feed is basically an APD free bonus and anything which comes in via easyJet's 'feed' is frankly a miracle - the volumes are minuscule here and mostly higher yielding traffic which doesn't care about the price let alone APD.


I do not deny that London is a huge market, but to say those people pay APD no matter what doesn't have to be true! There is always the possibility of a self-transfer at a foreign airport. Agreed, some people wouldn't bother but other people would. By only offering direct flights you take away the possibility of self-transfers. Direct flights should be available, certainly, but so should one-stop flights. Let's give the people a choice and not make that choice for them.
 
User avatar
bluefltspecial
Posts: 581
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2013 6:27 pm

Re: Norwegian and Seattle

Sun Mar 04, 2018 9:16 am

arcticcruiser wrote:
bluefltspecial wrote:
jumbojet wrote:
... the Korean 748 is excellent and these are the only birds, if I remember correctly, that have casper vents....


You mean Gasper Vents?


I don’t want to sit anywhere near Caper’s vent...


The feeling is mutual.
Save a horse, ride a Fly-boy....

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos