LongHaul101
Topic Author
Posts: 32
Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2017 8:50 pm

A330neo for the Lufthansa Group?

Sat Feb 24, 2018 11:29 pm

The a330neo has been lacking in orders recently despite being perfect for many airlines. In particular the Lufthansa Group is in need of a smaller modern long haul aircraft. With the group being more favourable towards Airbus and all but Austrian airlines operating the a330. Also with the group pursuing closer integration and flexibility between the airlines. Such as the new business class being fitted to Lufthansa, Swiss and Austrian and the standardized a320neo fleet. This is a look at how airlines might use the plane

Lufthansa
If Lufthansa used the a330neo it would obviously be used to replace the a330ceo fleet, this would be the -900neo as their a330 fleet consists solely of -300s. Other than that the -900neo could replace a340 and a350 aircraft on shorter long haul routes. The a350s could then be used to open new long haul routes. Using the -800neo the airline could go down the route of British Airways and open long and thin routes and compete against Condor possibly bankrupting the airline allowing them to acquire more landing slots at Frankfurt.

Swiss
Swiss could use the a330-900neo to replace their fleet of a340s and a330s otherwise the airline could use the -800neo as a way to open more routes to and from Switzerland to lower demand destinations in America and Asia.

Austrian Airlines
Austrian has two uses for the a330neo other than long and thin routes with the -800neo. The first of which is using the -900neo to replace their fleet of 767s the way Delta did. However the -900neo might be too much plane for a 767 replacement so the -800neo would most likely be used. The -900neo could also be used to replace the 777s. This would work well with their current route network but they might not work well with newer longer routes so an a350-900 will probably be chosen.

Eurowings
The most likely airline to fly the a330neo. Looking at their fleet of a330-200s that operate long haul flights for the airline, the a330neo would fit in perfectly. Especially since Eurowings are due to receive several a340-300s from Lufthansa. This seems like a stop gap measure by Lufthansa. The a340 will not be economical in a couple of years so this seems like a stop gap measure implemented by Lufthansa as a quick way to deal with the massive expansion of Eurowings long haul after the acquisition of Air Berlin until a new aircraft order is placed in the near future. However if the airline opens routes catered towards business travelers in Asia such as Hong Kong, Beijing and Tokyo, the a330-900neo does not have the range to reach the Far East. So if an a330neo fleet is introduced to Eurowings a fleet of a350s will also probably be introduced in order to let the airline reach the Far East and routes with higher demand.

Brussels Airlines
At present (February 2018) Brussels Airlines has a long haul fleet consisting solely of a330s. They have plans to acquire former Cathay Pacific and Singapore Airlines a330s so they won't need new aircraft for quite a while. If Brussels does order a330neos they will probably use -900neos to replace the -300s and the -800neos trouble replace -200s. But other than that Brussels Airlines will probably not need the a330neo for the foreseeable future.

Wow!
I just realized how much I typed sorry for writing so much. I just wanted to let other people see how perfect the a330neo is perfect for the Lufthansa Group and white I'm surprised they haven't ordered it yet.

If you made it this far Thank You for reading this!
Last edited by atcsundevil on Sun Feb 25, 2018 5:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Edited title for clarity
 
User avatar
SQ789
Posts: 671
Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:51 am

Re: A330neo for the Lufthansa Group

Sat Feb 24, 2018 11:50 pm

So if they order the A330neo, I believe they will feature the new Business Class like the future 777X.
If it's not Boeing, I'm not going!
 
GamingPolaris
Posts: 100
Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2016 12:20 am

Re: A330neo for the Lufthansa Group

Sat Feb 24, 2018 11:55 pm

I believe the Boeing 787 would be a better option to the Lufthansa Group. Honestly, I don’t see the Airbus A330neo any more successful than what it already is. If they get new orders, it would probably have steep discounts to properly compete with the Boeing 787. It’s losing customers and in my opinion, it’s just a matter of time before all the frames are delivered and gets shelved.
 
eamondzhang
Posts: 1421
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2010 8:23 am

Re: A330neo for the Lufthansa Group

Sun Feb 25, 2018 12:26 am

GamingPolaris wrote:
I believe the Boeing 787 would be a better option to the Lufthansa Group. Honestly, I don’t see the Airbus A330neo any more successful than what it already is. If they get new orders, it would probably have steep discounts to properly compete with the Boeing 787. It’s losing customers and in my opinion, it’s just a matter of time before all the frames are delivered and gets shelved.

When even A330ceo are reportedly beatingg 787's economics? Hmmmmm.......
.
Michael
 
Tedd
Posts: 470
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2016 11:22 am

Re: A330neo for the Lufthansa Group

Sun Feb 25, 2018 12:37 am

I would imagine both Lufthansa Group & IAG being interested in the A330Neo. The improvements look to be worthwile,
particularly the Trent 7000 engines, but with aerodynamic tweaks, weight-saving & purchase price, the attraction
would be hard to ignore. It`s got some stiff competition in the B787 for sure, but it`s not always the perceived best
product that wins out, other factors could come into play in such a close contest for orders. Many on A-net are
dismissive of the A330Neo, but the previous model did very well, & I can see a decent future for it, particularly
with the Chinese carriers.
 
airzona11
Posts: 1555
Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2014 5:44 am

Re: A330neo for the Lufthansa Group

Sun Feb 25, 2018 12:44 am

What is the time frame on the A330NEO with regards to how long it will be offered etc? A330s arent too old at LH.
The OP puts way too many uses for the A330-800 NEO, no airlines have it on order in any sizeable matter. Ship has sailed. LX and LH dont even operate the A330-200.
A330-900NEOs are in no way a replacement for 763s.
SN is an afterthought and financially is only going to be taking used planes.
OP mentions BA using the -800NEO to open up routes, but they dont have any NEOs on order and are using the 787 for that role.
Eurowings is going to get used planes, their model works with the lowest cost and capital expenditures.
 
GamingPolaris
Posts: 100
Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2016 12:20 am

Re: A330neo for the Lufthansa Group

Sun Feb 25, 2018 12:54 am

eamondzhang wrote:
GamingPolaris wrote:
I believe the Boeing 787 would be a better option to the Lufthansa Group. Honestly, I don’t see the Airbus A330neo any more successful than what it already is. If they get new orders, it would probably have steep discounts to properly compete with the Boeing 787. It’s losing customers and in my opinion, it’s just a matter of time before all the frames are delivered and gets shelved.

When even A330ceo are reportedly beatingg 787's economics? Hmmmmm.......
.
Michael


I highly doubt it, unless it’s a short hop. If so, source?
 
User avatar
flee
Posts: 1005
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2009 8:14 am

Re: A330neo for the Lufthansa Group

Sun Feb 25, 2018 1:51 am

IAG chief Willie Walsh says:
even at fuel prices of $650 per tonne, the fuel-efficiency cost of the Boeing 787 is "not enough" to offset the ownership cost, compared with the A330.


But he points out that IAG has access to 787s and the "flexibility to use them". The population of 787s is increasing, he says, and more 787 pilots are available.

He says the 787 is maturing and, as ownership costs decline, the type offers "more and more" opportunity, adding: "In five years' time, is the A330-200 the right aircraft?"

Source: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... et-446161/

Reading the above report, it would seem that A330s are very competitive when pitched against the B787s as airlines evaluate which aircraft they should acquire for their fleets.

I would expect the A330Neo to sell in similar fashion to the A330Ceo as airlines begin their replacement cycles. No real spectacular large orders but multiple small orders in a constant stream.
 
blueflyer
Posts: 4121
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 4:17 am

Re: A330neo for the Lufthansa Group

Sun Feb 25, 2018 2:11 am

GamingPolaris wrote:
eamondzhang wrote:
GamingPolaris wrote:
I believe the Boeing 787 would be a better option to the Lufthansa Group. Honestly, I don’t see the Airbus A330neo any more successful than what it already is. If they get new orders, it would probably have steep discounts to properly compete with the Boeing 787. It’s losing customers and in my opinion, it’s just a matter of time before all the frames are delivered and gets shelved.

When even A330ceo are reportedly beatingg 787's economics? Hmmmmm.......
.
Michael


I highly doubt it, unless it’s a short hop. If so, source?


As always, with aircraft economics, it's a question of what one compares. The trip cost of a 787 is lower than an A330CEO's. On the other hand, IAG's Willy Walsh told investors last year that the higher capital cost of a new 787 did not justify the trip cost savings over a used A330CEO, at least as far as their Level LCC was concerned. Note that the comment was specific to Level. Another carrier with different operating criteria may reach a different conclusion.
The Trump/Johnson special relationship: Special people on both sides of the Atlantic
 
JustSomeDood
Posts: 397
Joined: Fri Nov 24, 2017 9:05 am

Re: A330neo for the Lufthansa Group

Sun Feb 25, 2018 2:21 am

eamondzhang wrote:
GamingPolaris wrote:
I believe the Boeing 787 would be a better option to the Lufthansa Group. Honestly, I don’t see the Airbus A330neo any more successful than what it already is. If they get new orders, it would probably have steep discounts to properly compete with the Boeing 787. It’s losing customers and in my opinion, it’s just a matter of time before all the frames are delivered and gets shelved.

When even A330ceo are reportedly beatingg 787's economics? Hmmmmm.......
.
Michael


The same routes that the 330ceo is beating the 787 Economics wise also have it beating the 330neo, so that doesn't help sales prospects at all...
 
eamondzhang
Posts: 1421
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2010 8:23 am

Re: A330neo for the Lufthansa Group

Sun Feb 25, 2018 2:52 am

GamingPolaris wrote:
eamondzhang wrote:
GamingPolaris wrote:
I believe the Boeing 787 would be a better option to the Lufthansa Group. Honestly, I don’t see the Airbus A330neo any more successful than what it already is. If they get new orders, it would probably have steep discounts to properly compete with the Boeing 787. It’s losing customers and in my opinion, it’s just a matter of time before all the frames are delivered and gets shelved.

When even A330ceo are reportedly beatingg 787's economics? Hmmmmm.......
.
Michael


I highly doubt it, unless it’s a short hop. If so, source?

TATL flights as reported by the famous AC pilot up here in another thread. Check the AC fleet thread.

Michael
 
columba
Posts: 5232
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 10:12 pm

Re: A330neo for the Lufthansa Group

Sun Feb 25, 2018 6:56 am

It is an aircraft not many airlines want so it looks like the perfect fit for Lufthansa also it is an Airbus with Rolls Royce engines..........
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
Blerg
Posts: 2518
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: A330neo for the Lufthansa Group

Sun Feb 25, 2018 7:10 am

I don't know about Austrian, I think the B788 would be a much better replacement for their ageing B763s.

Would the A330 neo be an adequate replacement for their B772s though?
 
RickNRoll
Posts: 1817
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2012 9:30 am

Re: A330neo for the Lufthansa Group

Sun Feb 25, 2018 7:28 am

Could the headline have a question mark at the end of it?
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 8846
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: A330neo for the Lufthansa Group

Sun Feb 25, 2018 7:58 am

I think back in 2016 LH ruled out the A330NEO already.
 
User avatar
Qantas94Heavy
Posts: 43
Joined: Wed Aug 02, 2017 6:37 am

Re: A330neo for the Lufthansa Group

Sun Feb 25, 2018 8:00 am

Blerg wrote:
I don't know about Austrian, I think the B788 would be a much better replacement for their ageing B763s.

Would the A330 neo be an adequate replacement for their B772s though?


Unlikely. The 777-200ER (with 10 abreast) has roughly the capacity of a 787-10 or an A350-900.
 
Ronaldo747
Posts: 344
Joined: Sat Feb 14, 2009 4:58 pm

Re: A330neo for the Lufthansa Group

Sun Feb 25, 2018 9:03 am

I think LH mainline is looking for an all-in-one replacement for A333/A343 and is/was already looking at the 787-10. It can replace all the A330, BUT not the A340-300 entirely. The 787-10 have not enough range for some of the A343 routes i.g. South America. A solution would be a 787-10ER. They already ruled out the 787-9 for the mainline. Their A330 are still quite young but the A343 needs replacement.

So 787-10 and more A359 side by side? No flexibility.
So 787-10 and 787-9?
Or waiting for a 787-10ER.

Austrian: mix of 787-8 and 787-9 would be an answer.

Swiss: their A333 are very young, but a 787-9 would give them a common base with the 777 pilots.

I think Brussels Airlines is a good candidate for the A330neo.
 
RalXWB
Posts: 450
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2015 9:36 am

Re: A330neo for the Lufthansa Group

Sun Feb 25, 2018 9:14 am

Another "The A330 is doomed" thread...smh. People seem to forget how many A330s Airbus sold...
 
MEA-707
Posts: 3736
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 1999 4:51 am

Re: A330neo for the Lufthansa Group

Sun Feb 25, 2018 9:20 am

I am sure Airbus would make them a special deal for the Hawaiian 330-800s of which some are already being built. I can see the group eventually taking some, the 8/9 would work for Austrian Airlines and Brussels Airlines which have small widebodies now, and also perhaps Swiss and Lufthansa, their 330-300s are still young but eventually they might not want to end up with the A359 or 777 as their smallest widebody, if we presume they will not take the 787.
nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
 
cityshuttle
Posts: 93
Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2017 3:56 pm

Re: A330neo for the Lufthansa Group

Sun Feb 25, 2018 11:29 am

MEA-707 wrote:
I am sure Airbus would make them a special deal for the Hawaiian 330-800s of which some are already being built. I can see the group eventually taking some, the 8/9 would work for Austrian Airlines and Brussels Airlines which have small widebodies now, and also perhaps Swiss and Lufthansa, their 330-300s are still young but eventually they might not want to end up with the A359 or 777 as their smallest widebody, if we presume they will not take the 787.


That's exactly what I thought, too.

If LH is clever, they could make a good deal with Airbus on the former HA A330-800neo's.

I'm sure that LH (Group) prefers switching OS longhaul fleet to all-Airbus to match strategy.
 
User avatar
PigScroll
Posts: 11
Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2017 3:34 pm

Re: A330neo for the Lufthansa Group

Sun Feb 25, 2018 11:46 am

Lufthansa has 20 777-9s on order to replace their 747-400s. I guess that the 787-9/-10 or the 777-8 might be better for them to replace their A330s and A340s, to allow more pilot flexibility.

However, I could see the A330neos entering service with Eurowings, die to their current long haul fleet...
 
VSMUT
Posts: 3154
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: A330neo for the Lufthansa Group

Sun Feb 25, 2018 12:47 pm

IMHO, Austrian, Brussels Airlines and Eurowings will get second hand A330s for their immediate needs. Swiss isn't really in a hurry to get anything, but A350-900s would make good sense for them, as would A350-1000s at a later point. LH mainline? I'm going to bet on more A350-900s.

Eurowings (and Brussels, but they will become Eurowings anyway) are the most likely to get the 787 or A330NEO some day. I don't see any of the other LH airlines getting these two types.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 21747
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: A330neo for the Lufthansa Group

Sun Feb 25, 2018 1:14 pm

columba wrote:
It is an aircraft not many airlines want so it looks like the perfect fit for Lufthansa also it is an Airbus with Rolls Royce engines..........

If it had four engines, it'd be a perfect fit! :biggrin:
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
LGAviation
Posts: 861
Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2015 10:14 am

Re: A330neo for the Lufthansa Group

Sun Feb 25, 2018 1:21 pm

Revelation wrote:
columba wrote:
It is an aircraft not many airlines want so it looks like the perfect fit for Lufthansa also it is an Airbus with Rolls Royce engines..........

If it had four engines, it'd be a perfect fit! :biggrin:


True.. LH has indeed a history of ordering aircraft considered subpar by others. No, in all seriousness, LH Group has recently at least with the 320s sought to harmonise their fleets and the 330neo would be a good fit for most of their subsidiaries that don't really require the legs of the 787 or 350 plus there are already plenty of 330s in the group.
2018: ADD CPH DAR DEN DME DUB FRA HAH HAM IST JIB KEF LYR MEL OSL PEK PKC PVG RAK STN SVO SYD YVR
 
User avatar
MrHMSH
Posts: 2465
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2013 7:32 pm

Re: A330neo for the Lufthansa Group

Sun Feb 25, 2018 1:46 pm

Ronaldo747 wrote:
I think LH mainline is looking for an all-in-one replacement for A333/A343 and is/was already looking at the 787-10. It can replace all the A330, BUT not the A340-300 entirely. The 787-10 have not enough range for some of the A343 routes i.g. South America. A solution would be a 787-10ER. They already ruled out the 787-9 for the mainline. Their A330 are still quite young but the A343 needs replacement.

So 787-10 and more A359 side by side? No flexibility.
So 787-10 and 787-9?
Or waiting for a 787-10ER.

Austrian: mix of 787-8 and 787-9 would be an answer.

Swiss: their A333 are very young, but a 787-9 would give them a common base with the 777 pilots.

I think Brussels Airlines is a good candidate for the A330neo.


What's the point of going for a 787-10ER when they have A359s? The A359 is a pretty decent replacement for A343s in size and capacity.
 
DUSZRH
Posts: 158
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2017 12:17 am

Re: A330neo for the Lufthansa Group

Sun Feb 25, 2018 1:50 pm

The 330neo has barely a chance at LH. They plan to fly the LH/LX 343 to 2025, and the same is rumored to be happening to the OS 763/772 with some used 772s replacing the oldest 763s.

So the question is, what will they order for 2025. I doubt it will be 339s.
 
c933103
Posts: 3850
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: A330neo for the Lufthansa Group

Sun Feb 25, 2018 2:07 pm

RalXWB wrote:
Another "The A330 is doomed" thread...smh. People seem to forget how many A330s Airbus sold...

But then how many MD80 were sold and how many MD90 were sold....
Peace cannot counter violence when violence are being used by the powerful without mercy. #HongKong
But there is one possible exception. That is if the world could come together and make those who use violence lose their power. #China
 
RalXWB
Posts: 450
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2015 9:36 am

Re: A330neo for the Lufthansa Group

Sun Feb 25, 2018 4:02 pm

So now you are comparing DC-9 versions to the A330? Makes no sense. But to each his own...
 
kevin5345179
Posts: 97
Joined: Sat Feb 10, 2018 4:08 am

Re: A330neo for the Lufthansa Group

Sun Feb 25, 2018 4:14 pm

PigScroll wrote:
Lufthansa has 20 777-9s on order to replace their 747-400s. I guess that the 787-9/-10 or the 777-8 might be better for them to replace their A330s and A340s, to allow more pilot flexibility.

However, I could see the A330neos entering service with Eurowings, die to their current long haul fleet...


Spohr said they probably ordered too much 777X and not enough A350
So how will order more 787 to be a better decision if A350 is a better airplane for them in the long run
 
User avatar
JetBuddy
Posts: 2247
Joined: Wed Dec 25, 2013 1:04 am

Re: A330neo for the Lufthansa Group

Sun Feb 25, 2018 4:17 pm

I know at least one airline that prefer the A330neo over the A350, but the financing options aren't as good because of the investor/financier's lack of trust in the A330neo program.
 
kevin5345179
Posts: 97
Joined: Sat Feb 10, 2018 4:08 am

Re: A330neo for the Lufthansa Group

Sun Feb 25, 2018 4:18 pm

MrHMSH wrote:
Ronaldo747 wrote:
I think LH mainline is looking for an all-in-one replacement for A333/A343 and is/was already looking at the 787-10. It can replace all the A330, BUT not the A340-300 entirely. The 787-10 have not enough range for some of the A343 routes i.g. South America. A solution would be a 787-10ER. They already ruled out the 787-9 for the mainline. Their A330 are still quite young but the A343 needs replacement.

So 787-10 and more A359 side by side? No flexibility.
So 787-10 and 787-9?
Or waiting for a 787-10ER.

Austrian: mix of 787-8 and 787-9 would be an answer.

Swiss: their A333 are very young, but a 787-9 would give them a common base with the 777 pilots.

I think Brussels Airlines is a good candidate for the A330neo.


What's the point of going for a 787-10ER when they have A359s? The A359 is a pretty decent replacement for A343s in size and capacity.


agree and Spohr said they didn't order enough
I don't see how 787-10 have any place in the fleet
 
User avatar
OA940
Posts: 1939
Joined: Fri May 20, 2016 6:18 am

Re: A330neo for the Lufthansa Group

Sun Feb 25, 2018 4:43 pm

Nobody is gonna order the -800neo get over it. It's a dead plane.

Now the -900neo could make sense for them, but I think the 787 would make more sense, especially since it will have the same type rating as the 777X, which LH is expecting, and a common type rating with the 777, which both Austrian and Swiss already fly. Also there are already tons of LCC's with 787's, so they could give some of those to Eurowings, and SN may become Eurowings too soon, so I guess that's all figured out.
A350/CSeries = bae
 
kevin5345179
Posts: 97
Joined: Sat Feb 10, 2018 4:08 am

Re: A330neo for the Lufthansa Group

Sun Feb 25, 2018 4:52 pm

OA940 wrote:
Nobody is gonna order the -800neo get over it. It's a dead plane.

Now the -900neo could make sense for them, but I think the 787 would make more sense, especially since it will have the same type rating as the 777X, which LH is expecting, and a common type rating with the 777, which both Austrian and Swiss already fly. Also there are already tons of LCC's with 787's, so they could give some of those to Eurowings, and SN may become Eurowings too soon, so I guess that's all figured out.


so you are ignoring the fact that they all have Airbus planes which either have same type rating or common type rating
I don't see how type rating taking any advantage ......
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 8846
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: A330neo for the Lufthansa Group

Sun Feb 25, 2018 5:19 pm

For the moment it will be A359 and used frames below that size. The fleet planning at LH ist flexible. If they get good deals on users frames they take them, if they do not get good used frames they will order whatever is available on time and offers the best deal for them.
 
User avatar
OA940
Posts: 1939
Joined: Fri May 20, 2016 6:18 am

Re: A330neo for the Lufthansa Group

Sun Feb 25, 2018 5:39 pm

kevin5345179 wrote:
OA940 wrote:
Nobody is gonna order the -800neo get over it. It's a dead plane.

Now the -900neo could make sense for them, but I think the 787 would make more sense, especially since it will have the same type rating as the 777X, which LH is expecting, and a common type rating with the 777, which both Austrian and Swiss already fly. Also there are already tons of LCC's with 787's, so they could give some of those to Eurowings, and SN may become Eurowings too soon, so I guess that's all figured out.


so you are ignoring the fact that they all have Airbus planes which either have same type rating or common type rating
I don't see how type rating taking any advantage ......


Because they already have a next-gen Boeing very similar to the 787, plus the 787 is superior to the neo in tons of aspects.
A350/CSeries = bae
 
kevin5345179
Posts: 97
Joined: Sat Feb 10, 2018 4:08 am

Re: A330neo for the Lufthansa Group

Sun Feb 25, 2018 6:10 pm

OA940 wrote:
kevin5345179 wrote:
OA940 wrote:
Nobody is gonna order the -800neo get over it. It's a dead plane.

Now the -900neo could make sense for them, but I think the 787 would make more sense, especially since it will have the same type rating as the 777X, which LH is expecting, and a common type rating with the 777, which both Austrian and Swiss already fly. Also there are already tons of LCC's with 787's, so they could give some of those to Eurowings, and SN may become Eurowings too soon, so I guess that's all figured out.


so you are ignoring the fact that they all have Airbus planes which either have same type rating or common type rating
I don't see how type rating taking any advantage ......


Because they already have a next-gen Boeing very similar to the 787, plus the 787 is superior to the neo in tons of aspects.


with a relatively small fleet size of 20 on order ......
with your type rating argument, I don't think this make any sense at all
plus the superior argument is by airlines basis as we've heard argument about the capital spending on the plane isn't competitive enough compare to ceos already
one good example is DL which canceled the 787 order and get neos instead
 
holzmann
Posts: 599
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2011 3:43 pm

Re: A330neo for the Lufthansa Group?

Sun Feb 25, 2018 7:08 pm

LH has a long history of a degree of loyalty to Boeing. I think they won't make the political mistake of going all Airbus. I also don't think a decision is imminent as they maintain and fly their AC for quite a while. I think Brussels and Eurowings will morph into one LCC and will get any second hand A333ceos from LH. I think OS and LX have a degree of national pride to maintain for Austria and Switzerland, respectively and there is demand more than the "dregs" Lufthansa mainline has to offer. I think the OS 763/772s are prime candidates for B789 replacement. I would argue the same for A343 replacement at LX with their 77W commonality, eventually also replacing their A333ceos. This comes to about 30 B789 for OS and LX, combined.

LH mainline is doing about a 1:1 replacement of B744 with B779 and A346 with A359. They also have about 30 A333 and A343 that will need replacing and I predict they will order a mix of A339/A359/A35J to cover these.

So, in theory, LH Group could be diplomatic and do a split order of 30/30.

Of course, this all gets more interesting if LH really wants out of their B779 contract. Then again, they will want those if there is no A380neo. Rumor has it that the A380ceo is bit of an oddball in their fleet too.
DISCLAIMER: Airliners.net is an AIRBUS forum. Boeing Commercial Airplanes, if it has considered doing so in the past, should in no way consider supporting this website.
 
User avatar
aemoreira1981
Posts: 2941
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2017 12:17 am

Re: A330neo for the Lufthansa Group

Sun Feb 25, 2018 10:29 pm

I wonder how much of a top-up order LH might be considering for A359s...to replace all of the A343s at LH, LX, EW, and WK (I consider the B77Ws as being better at LH with A359s at LX replacing the B77Ws which move over to LH). The newest 8-10 A346s...that is the conundrum. They're too big for anyone in the group but Lufthansa.
 
WIederling
Posts: 8888
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: A330neo for the Lufthansa Group

Mon Feb 26, 2018 10:03 am

aemoreira1981 wrote:
I wonder how much of a top-up order LH might be considering for A359s...to replace all of the A343s at LH, LX, EW, and WK (I consider the B77Ws as being better at LH with A359s at LX replacing the B77Ws which move over to LH). The newest 8-10 A346s...that is the conundrum. They're too big for anyone in the group but Lufthansa.


If the A35K is as good as it made out to be they'd go for that. 23..4% better than 77W and on par with the paper numbers for the larger intrinsicially more efficient 779X. ( 779X order was imho kind of funneled via the 748i options.)
Murphy is an optimist
 
User avatar
OA940
Posts: 1939
Joined: Fri May 20, 2016 6:18 am

Re: A330neo for the Lufthansa Group

Mon Feb 26, 2018 12:26 pm

kevin5345179 wrote:
OA940 wrote:
kevin5345179 wrote:

so you are ignoring the fact that they all have Airbus planes which either have same type rating or common type rating
I don't see how type rating taking any advantage ......


Because they already have a next-gen Boeing very similar to the 787, plus the 787 is superior to the neo in tons of aspects.


with a relatively small fleet size of 20 on order ......
with your type rating argument, I don't think this make any sense at all
plus the superior argument is by airlines basis as we've heard argument about the capital spending on the plane isn't competitive enough compare to ceos already
one good example is DL which canceled the 787 order and get neos instead


I'm not just talking about LH, because group-wise the 777 fleets are not a negligible number. But the neo makes sense too, and for all we know they could order IL-96's.
A350/CSeries = bae
 
kevin5345179
Posts: 97
Joined: Sat Feb 10, 2018 4:08 am

Re: A330neo for the Lufthansa Group

Mon Feb 26, 2018 4:00 pm

OA940 wrote:
kevin5345179 wrote:
OA940 wrote:

Because they already have a next-gen Boeing very similar to the 787, plus the 787 is superior to the neo in tons of aspects.


with a relatively small fleet size of 20 on order ......
with your type rating argument, I don't think this make any sense at all
plus the superior argument is by airlines basis as we've heard argument about the capital spending on the plane isn't competitive enough compare to ceos already
one good example is DL which canceled the 787 order and get neos instead


I'm not just talking about LH, because group-wise the 777 fleets are not a negligible number. But the neo makes sense too, and for all we know they could order IL-96's.


The fact is only QR and EK have "significant size" of order
All the other operators only have ~ 20 planes
 
holzmann
Posts: 599
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2011 3:43 pm

Re: A330neo for the Lufthansa Group

Mon Feb 26, 2018 4:48 pm

kevin5345179 wrote:
OA940 wrote:
kevin5345179 wrote:

with a relatively small fleet size of 20 on order ......
with your type rating argument, I don't think this make any sense at all
plus the superior argument is by airlines basis as we've heard argument about the capital spending on the plane isn't competitive enough compare to ceos already
one good example is DL which canceled the 787 order and get neos instead


I'm not just talking about LH, because group-wise the 777 fleets are not a negligible number. But the neo makes sense too, and for all we know they could order IL-96's.


The fact is only QR and EK have "significant size" of order
All the other operators only have ~ 20 planes


What is your point? LH operates 14 A380 and you don't go around calling it an insignificant sub-fleet do you? AF has 10. Insignificant. BA has 12. Insignificant. According to your logic, QR and EK are the only ones to have a significant anything.
DISCLAIMER: Airliners.net is an AIRBUS forum. Boeing Commercial Airplanes, if it has considered doing so in the past, should in no way consider supporting this website.
 
kevin5345179
Posts: 97
Joined: Sat Feb 10, 2018 4:08 am

Re: A330neo for the Lufthansa Group

Mon Feb 26, 2018 6:32 pm

holzmann wrote:
kevin5345179 wrote:
OA940 wrote:

I'm not just talking about LH, because group-wise the 777 fleets are not a negligible number. But the neo makes sense too, and for all we know they could order IL-96's.


The fact is only QR and EK have "significant size" of order
All the other operators only have ~ 20 planes


What is your point? LH operates 14 A380 and you don't go around calling it an insignificant sub-fleet do you? AF has 10. Insignificant. BA has 12. Insignificant. According to your logic, QR and EK are the only ones to have a significant anything.


My point is having 777X order doesn't necessary makes 787 more attracting
Plus under LH group, only OS, LX, and LH cargo have 777 (If you want to consider the JV of Aerologic then sure .... )
OS's 777 are avg 17.6 years old and I don't think it is necessary to add more
LX and LH has still relatively young fleet
Compare to the overall A330/A340 the group has, I really don't see having additional 777X from LH is actually going to make a big push for 787 .....
 
User avatar
OA940
Posts: 1939
Joined: Fri May 20, 2016 6:18 am

Re: A330neo for the Lufthansa Group

Mon Feb 26, 2018 8:34 pm

kevin5345179 wrote:
holzmann wrote:
kevin5345179 wrote:

The fact is only QR and EK have "significant size" of order
All the other operators only have ~ 20 planes


What is your point? LH operates 14 A380 and you don't go around calling it an insignificant sub-fleet do you? AF has 10. Insignificant. BA has 12. Insignificant. According to your logic, QR and EK are the only ones to have a significant anything.


My point is having 777X order doesn't necessary makes 787 more attracting
Plus under LH group, only OS, LX, and LH cargo have 777 (If you want to consider the JV of Aerologic then sure .... )
OS's 777 are avg 17.6 years old and I don't think it is necessary to add more
LX and LH has still relatively young fleet
Compare to the overall A330/A340 the group has, I really don't see having additional 777X from LH is actually going to make a big push for 787 .....


Maybe they want the range? Maybe the economics? Idk, idc. What they may or may not order is not something I really care about, unless it's the IL-96 or the C929
A350/CSeries = bae

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos