As the title says

VAA are looking at acquiring more A330's, as more of the come off lease from previous companies. It hasn't been said which model, the 2/300, is preferred but my understanding is that, with the high lease costs of the current -300, it's not liked that these leases will be extended past the current 10 year lease.

It has been mentioned that any new A330's will most likely be purchased, similar to that of G-VNAP which returned to the fleet a few weeks ago.

Also, the rumours coming thick and fast, that VAA are only looking to base to A350 at LHR, it doesn't mean that the 787-9 will move to Gatwick, but merely a steady expansion and only a +1/2 increase of aircraft based at LHR

OMAAbound

Fitting in with DL's fleet plan to a great extent.

It would make sense to base the A350's at LHR so their all in one place, but at the same time they're going to have to stagger another aircraft type between the bases.

Depends what config they want and what they want to do.

Might a lease-in from effective parent DL be possible?

Doesn't surprise me that much if true, I was hoping they would go for A330neos but it doesn't seem they will, it would be a good, high-profile customer for it. The A330 has been quite good for them I think.

I think it's important to remember that Virgin's largest plane (the 744), doesn't even touch Heathrow at the moment.

Personally I don't see VS having the A333 as the largest MAN & LGW aircraft, they would need to massively up frequencies, which with LGW slots is easier said than done. They fill 747 flights in peak season, and Virgin Holidays, which feed them the traffic seem to be going from strength to strength.

So they will keep the 744's much longer now at LGW then ?

JamesCousins wrote:

I think it's important to remember that Virgin's largest plane (the 744), doesn't even touch Heathrow at the moment.

Personally I don't see VS having the A333 as the largest MAN & LGW aircraft, they would need to massively up frequencies, which with LGW slots is easier said than done. They fill 747 flights in peak season, and Virgin Holidays, which feed them the traffic seem to be going from strength to strength.

The odd 747 does pop up from Gatport airwick to cover problems now and then

OMAAbound wrote:

Also, the rumours coming thick and fast, that VAA are only looking to base to A350 at LHR, it doesn't mean that the 787-9 will move to Gatwick, but merely a steady expansion and only a +1/2 increase of aircraft based at LHR

......any idea how VS are planning to expand LHR ops exactly ???

I believe they did 'rent' out some of their slots, but no longer I believe. Are DL planning to let VS operate some of their slots, with DL flying elsewhere from the USA with their aircraft maybe ? Maybe DL will hand over some/all its LHR slots to VS ?

rgds
Bill

OMAAbound wrote:

TC957 wrote:

So they will keep the 744's much longer now at LGW then ?

It would seem that keeping the 747's and purchasing/leasing cheaper A330's, seems to be the way forward.

OMAA

Heaven help us, spent 9 hours on a VS 787 and 9 hours on their 747 2 weeks later and the difference was night and day. The 744 is horrendous when compared to the 787 on long flights from a passenger POV

“Fly a younger fleet” joins “4 engines 4 long haul” as stuff-you-should-never-paint-on-the-fuselage.....

TC957 wrote:

So they will keep the 744's much longer now at LGW then ?

It would seem that keeping the 747's and purchasing/leasing cheaper A330's, seems to be the way forward.

OMAA

readytotaxi wrote:

JamesCousins wrote:

I think it's important to remember that Virgin's largest plane (the 744), doesn't even touch Heathrow at the moment.

Personally I don't see VS having the A333 as the largest MAN & LGW aircraft, they would need to massively up frequencies, which with LGW slots is easier said than done. They fill 747 flights in peak season, and Virgin Holidays, which feed them the traffic seem to be going from strength to strength.

The odd 747 does pop up from Gatport airwick to cover problems now and then

I know, but 99% of the time it's 787's and A333's exclusively. Admittedly though it is nice to see a 747 there every now and again that isn't BA's

SelseyBill wrote:

OMAAbound wrote:

Also, the rumours coming thick and fast, that VAA are only looking to base to A350 at LHR, it doesn't mean that the 787-9 will move to Gatwick, but merely a steady expansion and only a +1/2 increase of aircraft based at LHR

......any idea how VS are planning to expand LHR ops exactly ???

I believe they did 'rent' out some of their slots, but no longer I believe. Are DL planning to let VS operate some of their slots, with DL flying elsewhere from the USA with their aircraft maybe ? Maybe DL will hand over some/all its LHR slots to VS ?

rgds
Bill

Well, on a full schedule VAA have 23 flights per day, slightly more in summer. With a full 787 fleet of 17 and accompanying A350 fleet of 12, they'll both compliment each other nicely. It'll also open chance of expansion with slots they currently have leased out, or taking some more Delta, LHR-US flights which they are keen on doing.

With this, it'll open the retirement for the A340, and to be able to position more LHR based A330's at LGW & MAN.

OMAA

I dont see the B787 in LGW.......

Currently DL flies to LHR from Atlanta, Boston, Detroit, Minneapolis, NY-JFK, Philadelphia (ending May) and seasonally from Portland/Salt Lake City. Wonder if they pick up more frequencies from existing stations (as they did JFK) or pick up a DL-only route.

pabloeing wrote:

I dont see the B787 in LGW.......

Agreed, too premium heavy. VS will want to offer the best product on the highest-yielding LHR routes too

Got to use those A380 deposits on something.

cheapgreek wrote:

Got to use those A380 deposits on something.

It sounds to me from the OP that VS is looking at used A330s (as they come off leases from first operator).

Polot wrote:

cheapgreek wrote:

Got to use those A380 deposits on something.

It sounds to me from the OP that VS is looking at used A330s (as they come off leases from first operator).

One would be correct, the cost of the original A330-300's we have are not too much less than our new 787's, and I imagine it could be why we've not seen another A330neo order from VS.

Certainly the 787 WONT be going to LGW as I wrote at the original point. The 787 & A350 will contribute each other nicely working out of Heathrow.

OMAA

OMAAbound wrote:

One would be correct, the cost of the original A330-300's we have are not too much less than our new 787's, and I imagine it could be why we've not seen another A330neo order from VS.

That can't really be true, now can it? The A330NEO can't be as expensive as a B787, now can it? The development cost is low and looking at the comments of Level (IAG) it seems the acquisition (equity) cost is low and more then offsets the win in fuel-savings, or that is the story of Level anyway.

OMAAbound wrote:

It'll also open chance of expansion with slots they currently have leased out, or taking some more Delta, LHR-US flights which they are keen on doing.

With this, it'll open the retirement for the A340, and to be able to position more LHR based A330's at LGW & MAN.

OMAA

Any word on what an expansion city of keen interest could be, hypothetically?

Maybe be being cynical. but could it be more of an asset switch for DL, or even AF/KL?

LuxuryTravelled wrote:

Maybe be being cynical. but could it be more of an asset switch for DL, or even AF/KL?

Why would DL want to shrink and give up A330s? Especially since their A330neos are apparently not coming on property until 2020 now, and I believe the last of the initial tranche of A350 deliveries is this year.

anstar wrote:

JamesCousins wrote:

I think it's important to remember that Virgin's largest plane (the 744), doesn't even touch Heathrow at the moment.

Personally I don't see VS having the A333 as the largest MAN & LGW aircraft, they would need to massively up frequencies, which with LGW slots is easier said than done. They fill 747 flights in peak season, and Virgin Holidays, which feed them the traffic seem to be going from strength to strength.

Given the increase in capacity from the likes of Norwegian and the soon to be densification of the BA fleet - perhaps VS is just "rightsizing" ie downsizing their LGW capacity much like they did at LHR by replacing 747's with 787/330's.

The 747's were great at LHR when Bermuda II was inforce and I guess they were great at LGW before Norwegian came along.

Also I suspect that VS is interested in further expanding their ops from secondary UK airports, and not funneling all their leisure traffic through LGW.

JamesCousins wrote:

I think it's important to remember that Virgin's largest plane (the 744), doesn't even touch Heathrow at the moment.

Personally I don't see VS having the A333 as the largest MAN & LGW aircraft, they would need to massively up frequencies, which with LGW slots is easier said than done. They fill 747 flights in peak season, and Virgin Holidays, which feed them the traffic seem to be going from strength to strength.

Given the increase in capacity from the likes of Norwegian and the soon to be densification of the BA fleet - perhaps VS is just "rightsizing" ie downsizing their LGW capacity much like they did at LHR by replacing 747's with 787/330's.

The 747's were great at LHR when Bermuda II was inforce and I guess they were great at LGW before Norwegian came along.

Polot wrote:

anstar wrote:

JamesCousins wrote:

I think it's important to remember that Virgin's largest plane (the 744), doesn't even touch Heathrow at the moment.

Personally I don't see VS having the A333 as the largest MAN & LGW aircraft, they would need to massively up frequencies, which with LGW slots is easier said than done. They fill 747 flights in peak season, and Virgin Holidays, which feed them the traffic seem to be going from strength to strength.

Given the increase in capacity from the likes of Norwegian and the soon to be densification of the BA fleet - perhaps VS is just "rightsizing" ie downsizing their LGW capacity much like they did at LHR by replacing 747's with 787/330's.

The 747's were great at LHR when Bermuda II was inforce and I guess they were great at LGW before Norwegian came along.

Also I suspect that VS is interested in further expanding their ops from secondary UK airports, and not funneling all their leisure traffic through LGW.

VS have never seemed interested in BHX, EMI, Stansted, Bristol or Luton, where the likes of TUI and MT operate long haul leisure travel from, it's very much a MAN, GLA, LGW affair with LHR doing the business side...

JamesCousins wrote:

Polot wrote:

anstar wrote:

Given the increase in capacity from the likes of Norwegian and the soon to be densification of the BA fleet - perhaps VS is just "rightsizing" ie downsizing their LGW capacity much like they did at LHR by replacing 747's with 787/330's.

The 747's were great at LHR when Bermuda II was inforce and I guess they were great at LGW before Norwegian came along.

Also I suspect that VS is interested in further expanding their ops from secondary UK airports, and not funneling all their leisure traffic through LGW.

VS have never seemed interested in BHX, EMI, Stansted, Bristol or Luton, where the likes of TUI and MT operate long haul leisure travel from, it's very much a MAN, GLA, LGW affair with LHR doing the business side...

My mistake, while I said secondary airports I really meant secondary cities. VS, for example, has been expanding MAN heavily away from just the traditional Orlando flight/ other typical charter leisure markets into more business oriented markets/ less traditional leisure routes. I would expect this to continue (more routes/ less seasonality in the routes) as VS gets more metal and the 787 engine issues get fully resolved across the fleet.

Polot wrote:

JamesCousins wrote:

Polot wrote:

Also I suspect that VS is interested in further expanding their ops from secondary UK airports, and not funneling all their leisure traffic through LGW.

VS have never seemed interested in BHX, EMI, Stansted, Bristol or Luton, where the likes of TUI and MT operate long haul leisure travel from, it's very much a MAN, GLA, LGW affair with LHR doing the business side...

My mistake, while I said secondary airports I really meant secondary cities. VS, for example, has been expanding MAN heavily away from just the traditional Orlando flight/ other typical charter leisure markets into more business oriented markets/ less traditional leisure routes.

No worries! I get you, I think the MAN expansion has worked really well, not just for VS, but for a host of airlines who seem to be prospering up north.

So according to this rumor all A350-1000s will be configured for business routes ex-LHR and no longer half-and-half leisure (LGW) and premium (LHR). I agree with JamesCousins that the leisure routes need large planes, so I wonder how VS plans to adjust its fleet and configuration for that.

If MAN-MIA did not work with Thomas Cook, I’m not sure it can work on Virgin.

Skyblue39 wrote:

If MAN-MIA did not work with Thomas Cook, I’m not sure it can work on Virgin.

Virgin does have better name recognition in the US and DL to help sell the flight. Not saying it’s feasible but VS does have advantages over Thomas Cook.

MrHMSH wrote:

Doesn't surprise me that much if true, I was hoping they would go for A330neos but it doesn't seem they will, it would be a good, high-profile customer for it. The A330 has been quite good for them I think.

If they are replacing current A330 routes and the routes are under 4000nm they would be getting the same or slight increase on fuel burn on a more expensive model. Why would they want to do that

skipness1E wrote:

“Fly a younger fleet” joins “4 engines 4 long haul” as stuff-you-should-never-paint-on-the-fuselage.....

If they buy the A330's new they would still have a younger fleet. Older model design thats new build is still a new young airframe.

Singapore's A330-300s are RR powered, and relatively new. They are coming off their leases quick, and there are quite a few of them. Plenty for VS to choose from. Also, if they base all their A350s at LHR, they can move LHR-based A330s to LGW/MAN and augment the fleet with those. Make LHR 787/A350 only.

You can see the benefits of them keeping one type at MAN and LGW, however like a lot of others, i can’t see this happening, simply due to the capacity decrease of the leisure routes, particularly MCO and LAS which are 95-100% full from the start of the summer schedule to the end. 330’s just aren’t enough. The only other option would be reconfiguring the 340’s into a less premium heavy layout once the new stuff arrives and replacing the jumbos with them, again I don’t see why they’d do it

I wouldn't be surprised to see DL/VS both looking at the SQ and other A330s coming off their leases. Lot's of A330 operators will.

azz767 wrote:

You can see the benefits of them keeping one type at MAN and LGW, however like a lot of others, i can’t see this happening, simply due to the capacity decrease of the leisure routes, particularly MCO and LAS which are 95-100% full from the start of the summer schedule to the end. 330’s just aren’t enough. The only other option would be reconfiguring the 340’s into a less premium heavy layout once the new stuff arrives and replacing the jumbos with them, again I don’t see why they’d do it

Great points, those VA opps require lots of Y seats to be filled, and they fill them.

Did they already lease some 332 from bankrupt Air Berlin?

SQ789 wrote:

Did they already lease some 332 from bankrupt Air Berlin?

Yes VS have taken five leased A332 that are based at Manchester, although some are former Air Berlin but I'm not totally sure if all five aircraft are.

This 'so called rumour' is a different story altogether suggested by someone who supposedly works for VS (not VAA as the OP types) with no credible source and who can't even string a proper sentence together!

Until the day that VS make an official announcement regarding this then I will believe it otherwise it is what it is a 'rumour' with absolutely no substance whatsoever!

The whole story sounds like ''Galley FM gossip''

Skyblue39 wrote:

If MAN-MIA did not work with Thomas Cook, I’m not sure it can work on Virgin.

Thomas Cook still operate this flight and have been since 2016, it's seasonal

Polot wrote:

Skyblue39 wrote:

If MAN-MIA did not work with Thomas Cook, I’m not sure it can work on Virgin.

Virgin does have better name recognition in the US and DL to help sell the flight. Not saying it’s feasible but VS does have advantages over Thomas Cook.

You've got to remember that most of Thomas Cook's traffic comes from holiday bookings, whereas VS have the business & leisure side, with far greater name recognition and the DL codeshare...

azz767 wrote:

The only other option would be reconfiguring the 340’s into a less premium heavy layout once the new stuff arrives and replacing the jumbos with them, again I don’t see why they’d do it

I could be wrong on this, but I seem to recall from long ago that the A346's are not suitable for some of the Caribbean islands that VS fly to from LGW? (something to do with the length and ground turning ability if I recall- Perhaps someone can confirm on this?)

If true this would restrict the A346's flexibility at LGW somewhat.

Richard28 wrote:

azz767 wrote:

The only other option would be reconfiguring the 340’s into a less premium heavy layout once the new stuff arrives and replacing the jumbos with them, again I don’t see why they’d do it

I could be wrong on this, but I seem to recall from long ago that the A346's are not suitable for some of the Caribbean islands that VS fly to from LGW? (something to do with the length and ground turning ability if I recall- Perhaps someone can confirm on this?)

If true this would restrict the A346's flexibility at LGW somewhat.

I mentioned this point a while back on a previous thread that the long length of the A350-1000 could also be an issue at airports like ANU & UVF where runway taxiing and swing arounds at the end are done. Perhaps a factor in VS's thinking.
I can't see Virgin Holidays being too happy with less capacity to sell on the leisure routes, it will restrict their growth. Of course, frequency can be upped at peak times but that will require more slots, airport gates, etc.

Does the A350k not have rear bogie steering like the 77w ?

Wouldn't surprise me as I always found it strange that 9 across Y A350s were planned for leisure routes while less comfortable 9 across Y 787s are used on business routes from LHR. Having flown multiple times in a full Y cabin on both 787s and A350s, I would pick the A350 any day.

kaitak744 wrote:

Singapore's A330-300s are RR powered, and relatively new. They are coming off their leases quick, and there are quite a few of them. Plenty for VS to choose from. Also, if they base all their A350s at LHR, they can move LHR-based A330s to LGW/MAN and augment the fleet with those. Make LHR 787/A350 only.

I did wonder why VS where doing training flights in and out of GLA on an A330 at the weekend...

TC957 wrote:

Richard28 wrote:

azz767 wrote:

The only other option would be reconfiguring the 340’s into a less premium heavy layout once the new stuff arrives and replacing the jumbos with them, again I don’t see why they’d do it

I could be wrong on this, but I seem to recall from long ago that the A346's are not suitable for some of the Caribbean islands that VS fly to from LGW? (something to do with the length and ground turning ability if I recall- Perhaps someone can confirm on this?)

If true this would restrict the A346's flexibility at LGW somewhat.

I mentioned this point a while back on a previous thread that the long length of the A350-1000 could also be an issue at airports like ANU & UVF where runway taxiing and swing arounds at the end are done. Perhaps a factor in VS's thinking.
I can't see Virgin Holidays being too happy with less capacity to sell on the leisure routes, it will restrict their growth. Of course, frequency can be upped at peak times but that will require more slots, airport gates, etc.

You have to think though, an order of 12, with 6-8 due to LGW/MAN, to replace 747’s, and the other 4 to replace LHR A333’s which will then shift to the ‘beach fleet’.

So let’s say 6 350’s move to MAN/LGW, double daily MCO and daily LAS from LGW, and between the two routes double daily from MAN, that’s 5 of the frames accounted for already, then factor in one for GLA and BFS, it maybe that one is sitting for half the week but with fleet rotation it would work.


The other Caribbean routes I think could probably take the capacity hit to a 333, besides perhaps HAV which could take the 6th 350. I think the capacity points are focussed on MCO and LAS so the length of the 350 might not be an issue as far as the remainder of the routes are concerned. Let’s not forget as well that VS are using the 744 on a couple of US city routes from MAN this year, and if they are filled on these routes, it perhaps more speculatively but still opens the possibility of another use for the 350’s

Richard28 wrote:

azz767 wrote:

The only other option would be reconfiguring the 340’s into a less premium heavy layout once the new stuff arrives and replacing the jumbos with them, again I don’t see why they’d do it

I could be wrong on this, but I seem to recall from long ago that the A346's are not suitable for some of the Caribbean islands that VS fly to from LGW? (something to do with the length and ground turning ability if I recall- Perhaps someone can confirm on this?)

If true this would restrict the A346's flexibility at LGW somewhat.

You're correct. A typical Caribbean runway is between 9000-11000 ft in length, so that's no issue. The problem is the size of their turning bays, these may pose a problem during backtrack for an aircraft that length. VS' 747s have no issues there however. On a separate note, I wonder if Airbus offers main wheel steering as an accessory to solve that problem.

eal wrote:

Skyblue39 wrote:

If MAN-MIA did not work with Thomas Cook, I’m not sure it can work on Virgin.

Thomas Cook still operate this flight and have been since 2016, it's seasonal

Not true. TCX will not be coming back on the MIA-MAN route. Flights are no longer bookable.