EricAY05
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Re: Pax and Pilots hate AA B737-Max

Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:56 am

TheRedBaron wrote:
The race to the bottom will continue as long as Joe average wants a ridiculous cheap fare...


This is a myth. If we don't count Basic Economy (and similar products), the prices are going up, not down. At the same time legroom and comfort is decreasing.
 
MrBretz
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Re: Pax and Pilots hate AA B737-Max

Fri Mar 02, 2018 1:01 am

Here is a review of the plane. There are pictures. The bathroom looks just like UAs on their 739.

Here's the link https://thepointsguy.com/2017/11/first- ... 737-max-8/
 
Aptivaboy
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Re: Pax and Pilots hate AA B737-Max

Fri Mar 02, 2018 2:09 am

As someone who is fortunate to be able to afford first class every now and then, I'll be avoiding this plane. Hey, coach is what it is, and I can accept that. But, if you're paying for first, then you should receive some semblance of a first class experience. Even UA has business-first lay flat seats in a number of their domestic planes, so even if its not a true first class "pod," at least its a nice reasonably comfy experience and worth the upgrade price on a longer flight. But, if AA is going to put a premium economy seat in its MAXs and claim its first class, plus the flimsy curtain divider, then I'll pass, thank you very much. I wish AA the best, my favorite airline from my childhood, but this setup doesn't look very appealing, at all.
 
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WROORD
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Re: Pax and Pilots hate AA B737-Max

Fri Mar 02, 2018 2:32 am

superjeff wrote:
American's 7M8 has 34" pitch in MCE (was 36" on 738), 37" pitch in F/J (was 40" on 738). I'd pay a bit more if I could for MCE, but there are only 18 seats (3 rows) and the pitch is what regular Y was only a few years ago. AA got a lot of flack when they introduced their A319's several years ago (before the US merger), acknowledged that there was a problem, then did nothing about it. And now they're talking about raising fares because fuel costs are going up (but they never lowered it over the past couple of years when fuel costs were low). The airlines are our main means of intercity travel these days. In the U.S. (and Canada), trains are really not an option, so you're stuck. There needs to be some minimum set of standards as to seat comfort, etc. I think that 30" pitch may result in safety issues as well. Can they evacuate a plane that's so tight in an emergency in 90 seconds? And, for our European friends, BA and LH have gone to 180 seats on an A320 which is really no better. What's the advantage of flying a legacy rather than a ULLC?


Totally agree, they want you to pay extra for extra pitch only the extra pitch was a standard in regular economy a couple of years ago. Where does it end? Also I agree that there should be some set standards disallowing airlines to go below them. Not only for passengers sake but also as you mentioned for emergency evacuation procedures.
 
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WROORD
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Re: Pax and Pilots hate AA B737-Max

Fri Mar 02, 2018 2:36 am

EricAY05 wrote:
TheRedBaron wrote:
The race to the bottom will continue as long as Joe average wants a ridiculous cheap fare...


This is a myth. If we don't count Basic Economy (and similar products), the prices are going up, not down. At the same time legroom and comfort is decreasing.


I noticed that too. Everyone is hiking up the prices and calling it a bargain.
 
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TheRedBaron
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Re: Pax and Pilots hate AA B737-Max

Fri Mar 02, 2018 2:36 am

EricAY05 wrote:
TheRedBaron wrote:
The race to the bottom will continue as long as Joe average wants a ridiculous cheap fare...


This is a myth. If we don't count Basic Economy (and similar products), the prices are going up, not down. At the same time legroom and comfort is decreasing.


Well in my experience I have found fares that are incredible just by purchasing from Internet sites, there is no way (for example) that UA made any money with my 215 USD round trip MEX-SFO last year, yep the A319 was cramped as hell but heck at that price Id sit on the toilet for 4.5 hours. Then you look for other carriers or Economy plus and suddenly the fare goes up 3X and Eco + is not available /sold out, I could not pay the Eco+ seats, and then on the return leg the plane was full and they gave us eco+ seats for free!!!. That dod not happen to my tickets on DL, they right away offered Eco+ for 45 each way and I took em, very worthy... but heck I have seen Volaris cattle class with 28 to 29 pitch full, and a Interjet flight at the same destination and hour (Mex-CUN) and the internet is 32 inches and it was half full and the difference in price was only USD 32..... people just want the lowest fare... and put up with terrible confort and fewer options, I might be wrong but in my experience I have seen it a lot...

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TW870
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Re: Pax and Pilots hate AA B737-Max

Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:43 am

It seems like the issue with the Max 8 on AA is that while none of its negative qualities are unique, it has no redeeming qualities. Tight first class, no cabin divider, tight W and Y, no PTVs, slimline lavs, etc. are not unique to the MAX or to AA. The reconfigured Delta A320s have the exact same miniature lavs, for example. The problem, though, is that the AA MAX 8 has ALL the negative features, and no apparent positive ones. The Delta 739ERs, for example have an awful coach bathroom setup, with all 3 lavs jammed together in the back, which is so hard on the pax seated aft. But at least they have a nice closet aft of F that helps with overflow bags and provides a hard divider for the DEF side. The AA max seems to have no feature where you say, "well, at least it has X".

I love flying and I would still be very excited to ride on this aircraft. But it does seem to be as harsh as it gets on the legacies.
 
catiii
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Re: Pax and Pilots hate AA B737-Max

Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:00 am

Can the OP point me to where in the linked article it says that pilots (plural) dislike the airplane? Because the story seems to be about one pilot complaining, and not even about anything to do with actually piloting the airplane.
 
n7371f
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Re: Pax and Pilots hate AA B737-Max

Fri Mar 02, 2018 7:14 am

Folks. Why the outrage? This is USAirways/America West operating under American.
 
Chemist
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Re: Pax and Pilots hate AA B737-Max

Fri Mar 02, 2018 7:14 am

I no longer make much effort to fly the legacies. I fly Southwest unless the route gives me no other choices:
1 - I don't fly enough to earn status on the legacies
2 - The FF miles on the legacies have been so devalued that they're not really worth it any more
3 - WN gives me 31" pitch and friendly service. Their FF points have no blackouts.
4 - Instead of caring about FF miles at any given airline I use a credit card that gives me cash back and then I can spend the rewards any damn way I want.
5 - I already vote with my wallet in that when searching for a flight, I automatically exclude Spirit, Frontier, and Allegiant.
 
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zeke
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Re: Pax and Pilots hate AA B737-Max

Fri Mar 02, 2018 7:20 am

catiii wrote:
Can the OP point me to where in the linked article it says that pilots (plural) dislike the airplane? Because the story seems to be about one pilot complaining, and not even about anything to do with actually piloting the airplane.


Have to agree, how does the cabin configuration impact on the pilots ?
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ckfred
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Re: Pax and Pilots hate AA B737-Max

Fri Mar 02, 2018 7:25 am

The problem for all airlines is that the number one consideration is price, absent a corporate requirement to fly a specific airline. This was a little while back. I was waiting for my son at school and got to talking to the mother of one of his classmates. Her husband is a UA mechanic. With a family of five, it's really hard to fly non-rev at any time that is popular for travel, such as spring break on the weekends. Planes are simply too full. But, when they went to book tickets to Florida, they found that AA was $50 a ticket cheaper. For a family of five, that's $250. That could very pay pay for the rental car.

So, when a UA employee flies AA because of the price, that really shows that price is the number one factor.

In the days of regulation, people picked airlines because of a variety of factors. My father avoided Eastern like the plague, because so many flights were late. He liked Delta morning flights, because its breakfast were southern, often with grits. When his salary grade permitted him to fly F, he flew Braniff whenever possible, because dinner often meant cherries jubilee for dessert.

These days, about the only time people choose based on the soft and hard product are for flights to Europe, Asia, or Latin America, if you can fly J or F.

A lot of people think of air travel as a commodity, like milk, gasoline, or canned vegetables. By the same token, I've known people who swore of one of the legacies. Then, the new favorite legacy merged, and service went south. Then, the next legacy screwed up. One friend of mine basically tells me that he's come to the conclusion that all U.S. carriers are crummy, even Southwest, since their advance-purchase fares aren't the bargain that they were 10 or 20 years ago.

Knowing that trains aren't a realistic option, outside of the northeast, and that cars can't compete much beyond 250 miles or so, airlines know that they are the only game in town for travel.
 
ckfred
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Re: Pax and Pilots hate AA B737-Max

Fri Mar 02, 2018 7:31 am

Does anyone know what the maximum seat count is for the 737-8 MAX. Boeing had to show that the highest seat count was capable of fully evacuating the aircraft in 90 seconds. Presumably, this would be with a very tight seat pitch, such as 29" and no F cabin.

The problem today is that in a manufacturer's test, the "passengers" may be employees who understand the cabin configuration and simply stand up and start walking towards an exit. You don't have real passengers who might be fumbling for a cell phone, trying to grab a coat, or deciding to take the personal item and the rollerboard.
 
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Embajador3
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Re: Pax and Pilots hate AA B737-Max

Fri Mar 02, 2018 10:54 am

Wait until FR get their brand new B737 Max8-200 with 197 seats and almost no galley space. Just rows of seats and seats everywhere!
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KarelXWB
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Re: Pax and Pilots hate AA B737-Max

Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:27 am

Embajador3 wrote:
Wait until FR get their brand new B737 Max8-200 with 197 seats and almost no galley space. Just rows of seats and seats everywhere!


Even the flight crew becomes optional.

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CRJ900
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Re: Pax and Pilots hate AA B737-Max

Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:50 am

ckfred wrote:
Does anyone know what the maximum seat count is for the 737-8 MAX. Boeing had to show that the highest seat count was capable of fully evacuating the aircraft in 90 seconds. Presumably, this would be with a very tight seat pitch, such as 29" and no F cabin.


189 seats at 29-30 inch pitch is max capacity in the MAX 8 (same as B738). The new MAX 8-200, which Ryanair and VietJet have ordered, can have 200 seats at 28 inch pitch.

Norwegian's last 30-odd B738s delivered from Boeing has 189 seats and three slimline lavs and most of them are based in the Canary islands and fly 5-6-hour nonstops to Scandinavia every day, packed to the gills. Their MAX 8 also have 189 seats and three slimline lavs and fly up to 8-hour nonstops crossing the Atlantic every day - and flights are quite full. Passenger feedback is mostly good, but some "fat-bottomed girls" do struggle when using the slimline lavs.

I'm a bit disappointed that the forward lav has been slimlined - it is small enough in the old config and the lavatory unit is still the same physical size. Supposedly there is more storage room for toilet paper rolls behind the mirror, but I didn't notice any more room, really...
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texl1649
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Re: Pax and Pilots hate AA B737-Max

Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:03 pm

Good reminder for me to enjoy one of my last AA MD flights today.
 
Brickell305
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Re: Pax and Pilots hate AA B737-Max

Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:03 pm

ckfred wrote:
So, when a UA employee flies AA because of the price, that really shows that price is the number one factor.

In the days of regulation, people picked airlines because of a variety of factors. My father avoided Eastern like the plague, because so many flights were late. He liked Delta morning flights, because its breakfast were southern, often with grits. When his salary grade permitted him to fly F, he flew Braniff whenever possible, because dinner often meant cherries jubilee for dessert.

These days, about the only time people choose based on the soft and hard product are for flights to Europe, Asia, or Latin America, if you can fly J or F.



And they plan to deploy the plane to Latin America. For all the people who say this is because people are choosing the lowest prices, does that also apply to business class passengers to Latam/Caribbean destinations like UIO, LIM, POS and BOG? The business class pitch has also been reduced on this plane and as stated before, there is no dedicated business cabin; just a curtain basically between main cabin and business. Are the business class passengers also looking to pay Spirit fares and only deciding based on price? Main Cabin Extra also has reduced pitch. Are the elites and non-elites who pay extra who reserve the MCE seats also bargain basement discount hunters?
 
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Re: Pax and Pilots hate AA B737-Max

Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:05 pm

commavia wrote:
Brickell305 wrote:
The issue is that people aren't getting Spirit prices on American.


Well of course not, because many customers - including those flying on basic economy fares - still derive value from things on AA that are either unavailable or cost extra money on Spirit.

Brickell305 wrote:
Furthermore, American appears to be planning to deploy the 7M8 on international routes as a replacement to the 757. Destinations such as POS, BGI, UIO, LIM already either have the 7M8 or will have it. BOG is also a possibility. These aren't low cost, discount bargain basement routes where AA would be justified in sending this type of product. They all have relatively strong business or high end leisure demand (in the case of BGI). There is no excuse for this.


AA is free to fly its aircraft wherever it is permitted to do so pursuant to legal and regulatory restriction. It's up to consumers to decide whether the aircraft is appropriate or acceptable in the market. If the answer is no, then AA will adjust accordingly.

In the meantime, is it seriously necessary to rehash this outrage over and over and over?


It's as necessary as your obsessive defense of every ridiculous decision that American Airlines makes.
 
HHScot
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Re: Pax and Pilots hate AA B737-Max

Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:09 pm

zeke wrote:
catiii wrote:
Can the OP point me to where in the linked article it says that pilots (plural) dislike the airplane? Because the story seems to be about one pilot complaining, and not even about anything to do with actually piloting the airplane.


Have to agree, how does the cabin configuration impact on the pilots ?


The pilots would also have to use the "micro toilet" too.
 
picarus
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Re: Pax and Pilots hate AA B737-Max

Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:16 pm

TheRedBaron wrote:
The race to the bottom will continue as long as Joe average wants a ridiculous cheap fare...


Sorry Redbaron, but this often quoted slur against paying passengers is 'ridiculous' IMHO. I have never witnessed passengers protesting with signs or threatening boycotts against airlines to demand lower airfares. Joe average, like any customers will take what is offered. If an airline wants to offer a $49 RT fare between LA-NY due to competitive reasons within the industry, then the fault doesn't lie with passengers.

AA has made a business decision to maximize revenue by installing as many seats as possible because the market will bear it. There's no other reason.

Have a great day!
 
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Re: Pax and Pilots hate AA B737-Max

Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:33 pm

Aptivaboy wrote:
As someone who is fortunate to be able to afford first class every now and then, I'll be avoiding this plane. Hey, coach is what it is, and I can accept that. But, if you're paying for first, then you should receive some semblance of a first class experience. Even UA has business-first lay flat seats in a number of their domestic planes, so even if its not a true first class "pod," at least its a nice reasonably comfy experience and worth the upgrade price on a longer flight. But, if AA is going to put a premium economy seat in its MAXs and claim its first class, plus the flimsy curtain divider, then I'll pass, thank you very much. I wish AA the best, my favorite airline from my childhood, but this setup doesn't look very appealing, at all.

But but but but this is what you are asking for, according to the airline apologists....
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GSPSPOT
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Re: Pax and Pilots hate AA B737-Max

Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:36 pm

cmb56 wrote:
I refer you to the "square pigs" as seen in an old SciFi movie titled Space Truckers.
That is where this is all headed.
Next up: No seats at all, you have a 9g body harness and stand up the whole flight.
LOL

Sadly not too far-fetched these days. IMO legacies are doing their best impressions of ULCC. They should be competing with each other, not bottom feeding for low-fare once-a-year flyers. Could this trend end up compromising safety in an evacuation??

Having lived in Dallas for several yrs I used to be an AA fanboi, but since the merger it's just HP 2.0.
Last edited by GSPSPOT on Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:51 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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airbazar
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Re: Pax and Pilots hate AA B737-Max

Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:48 pm

TheRedBaron wrote:
The race to the bottom will continue as long as Joe average wants a ridiculous cheap fare...

The problem is that because of revenue management, the vast majority of passengers on the plane are not paying "ridiculous cheap fares".
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Pax and Pilots hate AA B737-Max

Fri Mar 02, 2018 1:06 pm

EricAY05 wrote:
TheRedBaron wrote:
The race to the bottom will continue as long as Joe average wants a ridiculous cheap fare...


This is a myth. If we don't count Basic Economy (and similar products), the prices are going up, not down.


Can you point to a BTS data set (or other with similar reliable construction and reporting) that shows prices rising faster than inflation over an extended period? I don't believe you can.

This says airfare in constant $ (inflation adjusted) is down 24% from 1995 thru 2Q2017. The proportion of Basic Economy fares can't be anywhere rich enough to cover that.

https://www.rita.dot.gov/bts/airfares/p ... Fares.html
 
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Super80Fan
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Re: Pax and Pilots hate AA B737-Max

Fri Mar 02, 2018 1:20 pm

Say what you want about Delta, but at least they semi-care about the passenger AND offer lower fares than AA is selling on their torture chamber flights. Someone needs to remove DUI Dougie ASAP.
RIP McDonnell Douglas
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sixtyseven
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Re: Pax and Pilots hate AA B737-Max

Fri Mar 02, 2018 1:22 pm

777PHX wrote:
Most pilots I know that have flown the 737 and the A32X prefer the Airbus. The cockpit isn't nearly as cramped and sidestick.


What was your question? What cockpit is better? Ergonomics wise it’s airbus all day.

Ask them what airplane is better to do their job in? What airplane they’d rather have in an emergency, heavy crosswind, etc. Ask them pilot questions, not passenger questions.

Do that and your answer will most certainly be different.
Stand-by for new ATIS message......
 
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zeke
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Re: Pax and Pilots hate AA B737-Max

Fri Mar 02, 2018 1:42 pm

sixtyseven wrote:
Ask them what airplane is better to do their job in? What airplane they’d rather have in an emergency, heavy crosswind, etc. Ask them pilot questions, not passenger questions.

Do that and your answer will most certainly be different.


People like myself who have flown both A & B prefer A, the biggest thing for me is the lower noise levels. I feel less fatigued after every flight.

I fly through typhoon conditions every year, A handles it well. Not sure what you are referring to in terms of emergencies, A is very gentle.

A lot of people they harp on about B being better never flown anything else.
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FlyingJhawk
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Re: Pax and Pilots hate AA B737-Max

Fri Mar 02, 2018 1:52 pm

There will come a time in which there will be a general backlash against the ever increasing passenger density. It's inevitable that one of the domestics will counter this trend to tap into the growing frustration with overly cramped cabins. It won't be in the next few years. But it will happen. I just hope I am still alive when it happens.
 
UpNAWAy
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Re: Pax and Pilots hate AA B737-Max

Fri Mar 02, 2018 2:04 pm

Blimpie wrote:
Offer a good quality product and service and people will be willing to pay for it. The legacies weren't losing customers to the LCCs because of cost, they lost it due to crap service and corporate greed. Race to the bottom.... sheesh.
/end old man rant



This is completely false and devoid of any truth and a basic understanding of economics. The legacies have tons of data that shows the exact opposite.
 
Oykie
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Re: Pax and Pilots hate AA B737-Max

Fri Mar 02, 2018 2:10 pm

I am currently onboard a 737-800W with 186 seats, and while it is not the best space, it gets me from A to B. I would not have enjoyed this crossing the Atlantic, but for shorter flights I’m good. These are new slim seats and I am 188CM tall so smaller seats works for long people, and I saved 50USD compared to competition :-)

I have not yet tried AA 737-8Max and have no way of knowing how it feel, IMO the quality product of AA has increased a lot in the last 6 years I have been flying them. The toilet seems tight, but I have to try it before I complain ;-)
Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
 
zrh177
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Re: Pax and Pilots hate AA B737-Max

Fri Mar 02, 2018 2:17 pm

commavia wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
I’m scared to imagine how an similarly configured A321 would look like.


Probably a lot like the dozens of A321s (with dozens more to come) already flying around today at Delta with two more seats than what AA's A321s will have after they're reconfigured, and that isn't counting the 100 new A321neos Delta will begin accepting in 2020 with seven more seats than AA's A321s will have. And then there are the Delta 75Ds fly today that have the same minimum amount of legroom as AA's 737s and A321s will have, and the numerous United aircraft with that same amount of minimum legroom, and not to mention the hundreds of aircraft flying around with multiple U.S. carriers that have tight bathrooms, and on and on.

I continue to find it remarkable how much people continue to complain about this, and in particular how people seem to be fixated on this specific to AA. Cabin densification is an entirely economically rational response to consumers' own behavior - and not just AA, but at essentially every single major U.S. carrier. If customers want more legroom, they will - in virtually all cases - have the opportunity to either pay for it, and/or select a competitor that offers it.


Your point that increased density is an economical market response is undeniable. More folks than ever are flying, and this is by many standards a good thing. However, you fail to account for the oligopoly-like nature of air travel. On one hand, I'm glad that it's difficult for any schmuck with a plane to break into the commercial air market-- it takes true expertise to safely transport folks a few miles above the earth. But at the same time, the product that airlines offer, i.e. the fastest, most economical mode of transport in humanity's history, has no competitor. So as long as we desire to get places quickly yet cheaply, airlines will be able to do as they please.
 
adh214
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Re: Pax and Pilots hate AA B737-Max

Fri Mar 02, 2018 2:22 pm

sagechan wrote:
Buy an MCE or a First seat problem solved.


Yeah, I recently paid an extra $900 to fly cross country in AA first. When I got to the airport I was told, “ your flight is delayed and we are over sold. Here is a coach ticket on Delta, please pay them $85 to check your luggage.”
Lovely....
 
txjim
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Re: Pax and Pilots hate AA B737-Max

Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:24 pm

Blimpie wrote:
Just because the customer wants something doesn't mean that a company should provide that. What if customers demand McBurger Box starts selling all burgers with nicotine and all their shakes are laced with weed spray, it doesn't mean that McBurger Box should start selling it.


Are you saying that companies should not sell what people are willing to pay for?
 
jeffrey1970
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Re: Pax and Pilots hate AA B737-Max

Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:35 pm

usxguy wrote:
I flew on an AA 738 NG reconfig and I couldn't wait to get off the plane. Was even in the exit row, window. Thank god Alaska is holding off on those torture seats.

I actually felt more comfortable flying on the Cape Air Cessna 402 than I did on the AA 737-800....


I love Southern Express Airlines Cessna Caravan. I had lots of leg room.
God bless through Jesus, Jeff
 
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Re: Pax and Pilots hate AA B737-Max

Fri Mar 02, 2018 4:33 pm

FlyingJhawk wrote:
There will come a time in which there will be a general backlash against the ever increasing passenger density. It's inevitable that one of the domestics will counter this trend to tap into the growing frustration with overly cramped cabins. It won't be in the next few years. But it will happen. I just hope I am still alive when it happens.

I agree. The race to the bottom will overshoot and then bounce back a tiny bit. The problem is, in the mean time, lots of money is being spent re-configuring airplanes as we seek the bottom, and it'll still take a while for it all to shake out. The market is not an elastic one, unlike what some here seem to think.
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commavia
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Re: Pax and Pilots hate AA B737-Max

Fri Mar 02, 2018 4:39 pm

txjim wrote:
Are you saying that companies should not sell what people are willing to pay for?


That does, indeed, seem to be the general consensus among many here on A.net.

I continue to be left with no other conclusion but that many people are genuinely offended by the prospect of airlines responding to consumer's own behavior and, in so doing, making exceedingly reasonable profit margins.
 
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Re: Pax and Pilots hate AA B737-Max

Fri Mar 02, 2018 4:48 pm

commavia wrote:
txjim wrote:
Are you saying that companies should not sell what people are willing to pay for?


That does, indeed, seem to be the general consensus among many here on A.net.

I continue to be left with no other conclusion but that many people are genuinely offended by the prospect of airlines responding to consumer's own behavior and, in so doing, making exceedingly reasonable profit margins.

I've bought Dunkin' Donuts coffee in the grocery store for years now. I recently noticed the bag didn't seem to last as long. I looked at the bag side-by-side with an old one and the old one said 12 ounces, the new one said 11 ounces. The bags were sold for the same price. Should I be offended? Or is Dunkin' Donuts just responding to consumer behavior of not looking at the label each time they buy something to see if they've been sold less for the same price?
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
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Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
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commavia
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Re: Pax and Pilots hate AA B737-Max

Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:01 pm

Revelation wrote:
I've bought Dunkin' Donuts coffee in the grocery store for years now. I recently noticed the bag didn't seem to last as long. I looked at the bag side-by-side with an old one and the old one said 12 ounces, the new one said 11 ounces. The bags were sold for the same price. Should I be offended? Or is Dunkin' Donuts just responding to consumer behavior of not looking at the label each time they buy something to see if they've been sold less for the same price?


I'm not really sure what the actual point is being made, but in effect, yes, Dunkin' Donuts is responding to consumers' desire for competitive prices.

In the case of airlines, costs continue to rise, so I'm not sure why people seem to be so shocked that, gradually, eventually, on average, fares are rising, too. Airlines are already making extremely narrow profit margins as it is. So if consumers want to continue to travel by air, they'll either have to accept (1) higher fares, (2) reduced products and services for those fares, and/or (3) some combination thereof. This is really simple economics.
 
UpNAWAy
Posts: 556
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Re: Pax and Pilots hate AA B737-Max

Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:05 pm

FlyingJhawk wrote:
There will come a time in which there will be a general backlash against the ever increasing passenger density. It's inevitable that one of the domestics will counter this trend to tap into the growing frustration with overly cramped cabins. It won't be in the next few years. But it will happen. I just hope I am still alive when it happens.


Wrong, the market has spoken!
American decreased coach density years ago and lost their shirts if you do not recall. I used to think a national all premium airline would be great (Like MidWest Express) I was wrong it would be a horrible disaster.
But now they are not just increasing density but adding more choices. FC/BC, Premium Economy, Main Cabin Extra, Coach, Basic etc so there already exist the choice to pay more for a better seat.
 
sdh9
Posts: 40
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Re: Pax and Pilots hate AA B737-Max

Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:06 pm

Blimpie wrote:
Offer a good quality product and service and people will be willing to pay for it.


I know this is a common A.net refrain, but this is not the case. There are several case studies where this was tried and failed, most notably American’s More Room Throughout Coach.

Americans want cheap tickets. Everything else is secondary. You may be willing to pay more for better service, and if that’s the case, there’s upgrades that you can purchase. But most are not.
 
Aptivaboy
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Re: Pax and Pilots hate AA B737-Max

Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:09 pm

But but but but this is what you are asking for, according to the airline apologists....


HA! Yeah, exactly and while that may be true for some, its not for me. As I age and the arthritis comes on and the bones ache a bit more, I tend to want to enjoy travel and winding up shaped into a pretzel by a cramped seat and cabin isn't my preferred way of flying. I'll deal with being cramped on a short and inexpensive Southwest coach leg, but not on any airline trip longer than an hour or two, and that's pushing it. It just isn't worth the discomfort. And, don't even get me going again on the alleged first class in this plane! Someday, the young airline apologists will age a bit and understand the horror that they've inflicted on the rest of us! :D
 
masseybrown
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Re: Pax and Pilots hate AA B737-Max

Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:13 pm

Customer complaints get nowhere on things like seat size. What will happen is there will be an air-rage incident on a flight that involves someone congressional. Congress will step in and regulate seat size; and it will be the airlines' own fault.
 
sixtyseven
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Re: Pax and Pilots hate AA B737-Max

Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:20 pm

zeke wrote:
sixtyseven wrote:
Ask them what airplane is better to do their job in? What airplane they’d rather have in an emergency, heavy crosswind, etc. Ask them pilot questions, not passenger questions.

Do that and your answer will most certainly be different.


People like myself who have flown both A & B prefer A, the biggest thing for me is the lower noise levels. I feel less fatigued after every flight.

I fly through typhoon conditions every year, A handles it well. Not sure what you are referring to in terms of emergencies, A is very gentle.

A lot of people they harp on about B being better never flown anything else.


I’m talking about FLYING the airplane. Not riding around in one.
Stand-by for new ATIS message......
 
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Revelation
Posts: 21941
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Re: Pax and Pilots hate AA B737-Max

Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:23 pm

commavia wrote:
In the case of airlines, costs continue to rise, so I'm not sure why people seem to be so shocked that, gradually, eventually, on average, fares are rising, too. Airlines are already making extremely narrow profit margins as it is. So if consumers want to continue to travel by air, they'll either have to accept (1) higher fares, (2) reduced products and services for those fares, and/or (3) some combination thereof. This is really simple economics.

Meanwhile, the major US airlines have undergone huge amounts of consolidation and are making record huge profits. I don't think consumers are going to trace the changes back to their behavior.

I appreciate your point of view, but I doubt it's the one that will take hold.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
superjeff
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Re: Pax and Pilots hate AA B737-Max

Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:29 pm

EricAY05 wrote:
TheRedBaron wrote:
The race to the bottom will continue as long as Joe average wants a ridiculous cheap fare...


This is a myth. If we don't count Basic Economy (and similar products), the prices are going up, not down. At the same time legroom and comfort is decreasing.



Very true. And there are other things coming along, like the airlines' lobbying to make non refundable fares non refundable from the minute booked, without the current 24 hour cancelation policy.

If there was a possibility to select a slightly better level of service, it would sell, which is why AA's MCE, DL's Comfort Plus, and United's Economy Plus are so popular, even with people who have to pay to get it. But the airlines try to tell us (and we believe) that it is only "price, Price, and PRICE". That is somewhat correct, perhaps, but it also overlooks the possibility that there is a market out there which appreciates value, and the current system doesn't always offer it.
 
erica320
Posts: 2
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2006 6:42 pm

Re: Pax and Pilots hate AA B737-Max

Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:34 pm

I don't intend to start another of those A against B, stick or yoke controversy, but A320 cockpit is definitely much roomier and (at least for me) more comfortable then 737s (whatever type or generation) ...
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9526
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

Re: Pax and Pilots hate AA B737-Max

Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:37 pm

So people don't choose based on price? Then what the heck are F9, G4, NK, SY, et al doing in business?

I have no doubt that the airlines are trying to milk every cent they can get out of their seats - that's how they make money. If more money would be made by increasing pitch and amenities, JetBlue would be the largest carrier in the country and VX would just be completing it's takeover of AS. Instead, the former keeps tightening it's own pitch and the latter is a memory.

I blame myself, though. I do try to buy the lowest price ticket, then apply my knowledge of the airlines (fwiw) to make an informed choice. I buy Y+ for my son because he's a big kid, but otherwise I generally choose price first. My apologies.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
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rikkus67
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Re: Pax and Pilots hate AA B737-Max

Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:45 pm

TheRedBaron wrote:
The race to the bottom will continue as long as Joe average wants a ridiculous cheap fare...


...and therein lies the problem.

Here in Canada, I was able to compare two Westjet 737-800's last year. One had "regular" seats, and one had the newer "slim line" style. I found the slimline to actually be more comfortable, with minimal difference in seat pitch. The next comparison will be trying one of WS's Max 8... Should I be scared? LOL!
AC.WA.CP.DL.RW.CO.WG.WJ.WN.KI.FL.SK.ACL.UA.US.F9
 
737max8
Posts: 538
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2015 4:13 am

Re: Pax and Pilots hate AA B737-Max

Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:50 pm

KPDX wrote:
Dunno about AAL, but I flew the SWA 737-8MAX and thought it was very comfortable. I love the newer Boeing Sky interiors.


That's because SWA has 32" pitch and roomy economy seats on the MAX 8.
The thoughts and opinions expressed in my comments do not represent that of any airline or affiliate.
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