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zeke
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Re: Pax and Pilots hate AA B737-Max

Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:54 pm

sixtyseven wrote:
I’m talking about FLYING the airplane. Not riding around in one.


It sounds like you have never actuallyflown anything except B, and you don’t know anything else.

Flying an aircraft is something you can do on your days off the way you want to, operating an airliner is what you do at work, the way the boss tellls you. Anyone who says different is kidding themselves.
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ODwyerPW
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Re: Pax and Pilots hate AA B737-Max

Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:00 pm

Opps.. Correction: I found a partial picture of the bathroom.
https://thepointsguy.com/2017/11/first- ... 737-max-8/

I guess we can disregard my previous comment:
Every article link, every post on this thread, fails to show a photo of said lavatory.... Just stock photos of planes taking off..... Laziness... .to the nth degree. If a journalist is going to go on a rant... include a photo......
Sorry
Last edited by ODwyerPW on Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
learning never stops.
 
AC143
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Re: Pax and Pilots hate AA B737-Max

Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:02 pm

Blimpie wrote:
Sorry to all those who love to use the argument, that AA and the other airlines are giving the customer what they want. That's a bullspit argument. Just because the customer wants something doesn't mean that a company should provide that. What if customers demand McBurger Box starts selling all burgers with nicotine and all their shakes are laced with weed spray, it doesn't mean that McBurger Box should start selling it.

It use to be that companies took pride in the quality of the goods and services that they would provide, and would refuse to cut the corners of quality to serve a customer. The fact that the legacies are willing to reduce their quality to such a dismal level to appeal to the lowest bucket fare customers is ridiculous.

The way I see it these days, the legacies are equivalent to seeing Lexus or Porsche pushing a $12'000 USD 1.0l economic sub-compact to the most frugal or poorest customer. There are plenty of costumers out there still willing to pay for 32" legroom and a comp bag of chips with free checked bags out there to keep the airlines afloat. And, there are plenty of ULCCs and LCCs out there to appeal to the rest.

Offer a good quality product and service and people will be willing to pay for it. The legacies weren't losing customers to the LCCs because of cost, they lost it due to crap service and corporate greed. Race to the bottom.... sheesh.

I didn't stop flying AA because of seat sizes, I stopped flying them because their quality has turned to crap like UA's.

Now, get the hell off my lawn, you damn kids.

/end old man rant

Essentially there are two ways to do business, one is to go premium and provide high quality products only for premium customers, the other is to cater to all customers' need i.e. the quality what most customers are willing to pay for. The first way is great but it's a more dedicate business model, even the best sports car brands have their ups and downs (actually most luxury sports car brands are now owned by big grass-root based car companies). Arguably economy class was never designed to suit the premium customers anyways although even the business class on US3 are not great either. Even EK with their great first/business service and such led the tide of 10 abreast 77W, cramped economy is a sad trend around the world but it actually makes a lot of sense.
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santi319
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Re: Pax and Pilots hate AA B737-Max

Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:02 pm

N62NA wrote:
Not mentioned in the article: There is no longer an F cabin, just a 6 inch "divider" hanging from the ceiling behind the last row of F. I will avoid this plane for as long as possible.


Oh God the horror!

American travellers compared to Europeans need to get a grip, no Margaret and Phil you won't pay $150 RT and expect a bed and a three course menu in a 1:15 flight...
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: Pax and Pilots hate AA B737-Max

Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:07 pm

santi319 wrote:
N62NA wrote:
Not mentioned in the article: There is no longer an F cabin, just a 6 inch "divider" hanging from the ceiling behind the last row of F. I will avoid this plane for as long as possible.


Oh God the horror!

American travellers compared to Europeans need to get a grip, no Margaret and Phil you won't pay $150 RT and expect a bed and a three course menu in a 1:15 flight...


Weird, because we're usually told how great Euro airlines are - I assumed that's how it was.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
santi319
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Re: Pax and Pilots hate AA B737-Max

Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:14 pm

PlanesNTrains wrote:
santi319 wrote:
N62NA wrote:
Not mentioned in the article: There is no longer an F cabin, just a 6 inch "divider" hanging from the ceiling behind the last row of F. I will avoid this plane for as long as possible.


Oh God the horror!

American travellers compared to Europeans need to get a grip, no Margaret and Phil you won't pay $150 RT and expect a bed and a three course menu in a 1:15 flight...


Weird, because we're usually told how great Euro airlines are - I assumed that's how it was.


Theres literally not even first class on short/medium haul European "legacy" airlines....
 
Aptivaboy
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Re: Pax and Pilots hate AA B737-Max

Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:16 pm

Remember when flying was an adventure?

http://www.braniffpages.com/1965/pic8.html

Man, I miss those days. Except for the smoking, that is. That was pretty disgusting.
 
alan3
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Re: Pax and Pilots hate AA B737-Max

Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:16 pm

commavia wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:

I continue to find it remarkable how much people continue to complain about this, and in particular how people seem to be fixated on this specific to AA. Cabin densification is an entirely economically rational response to consumers' own behavior - and not just AA, but at essentially every single major U.S. carrier. If customers want more legroom, they will - in virtually all cases - have the opportunity to either pay for it, and/or select a competitor that offers it.


This argument drives me crazy. Deliberately making Y so uncomfortable and cramped that the onus is put on the passenger to upgrade in order to find a basic standard of comfort. That's an incredibly cynical approach to running a business, to deliberately make your own customers uncomfortable.

Maybe standard rooms in a hotel should just be an army cot and a bucket.....and then tell people the onus is on them to upgrade to a suite?

Maybe people should have to stand to eat in restaurants and pay extra for the comfort of sitting down.

It is entirely legitimate to expect a lowest common set of standards......and it's incredible that people are not realizing the link between air rage and cattle treatment.
 
ckfred
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Re: Pax and Pilots hate AA B737-Max

Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:17 pm

Brickell305 wrote:
ckfred wrote:
So, when a UA employee flies AA because of the price, that really shows that price is the number one factor.

In the days of regulation, people picked airlines because of a variety of factors. My father avoided Eastern like the plague, because so many flights were late. He liked Delta morning flights, because its breakfast were southern, often with grits. When his salary grade permitted him to fly F, he flew Braniff whenever possible, because dinner often meant cherries jubilee for dessert.

These days, about the only time people choose based on the soft and hard product are for flights to Europe, Asia, or Latin America, if you can fly J or F.



And they plan to deploy the plane to Latin America. For all the people who say this is because people are choosing the lowest prices, does that also apply to business class passengers to Latam/Caribbean destinations like UIO, LIM, POS and BOG? The business class pitch has also been reduced on this plane and as stated before, there is no dedicated business cabin; just a curtain basically between main cabin and business. Are the business class passengers also looking to pay Spirit fares and only deciding based on price? Main Cabin Extra also has reduced pitch. Are the elites and non-elites who pay extra who reserve the MCE seats also bargain basement discount hunters?


You need to factor into the discussion the issue of corporate contracts. A person may upgrade to MCE, but his company may be paying for him to fly Y on AA, and he can't fly WN, B6, UA, DL, and AS. By the same token, how many people upgrade to F?

Back in the 1970s, my father worked for Swift & Co. Anyone who was a director or higher could book F. If a director was traveling with employees who were lower than a director, they could also book F. But even in the early 1980s, the rule changed, and directors or vice presidents traveling with managers had to fly Y. You saw a lot of directors deciding they needed to travel early or later, so that they didn't have to fly Y with direct reports.

Fast forward to today. I know vice presidents of large companies who can only book domestic Y. Companies aren't as generous with premium travel as they were. My wife used to work for a company that used to allow travel in F for domestic flights over 4 hours. That was back in the early 1990s. By the time she left in 2005, there was no F travel in the system, and someone in Chicago flying to London would have had to book Y, because there was a minimum of 10 hours scheduled flight time, in order to book J.

For my wife to fly with her current employer, it takes her boss and his boss to sign off on travel. Needless to say, she isn't the road warrior that she was with past employers, because travel is frankly frowned upon for anyone who isn't in a senior position with the company.

If seats in F tend to be filled with upgraded passengers, then airlines may very well decide that the F cabin on a narrowbody doesn't have to be that nice.

The funny thing is that my father-in-law used to fly Delta a lot in the 1990s, when he consulted part time while teaching college full time. He flew enough that he was second tier on SkyMiles. But, even between 1994 and 2005, when he stopped traveling for business, he had a lot of complaints about how DL domestic F had gone downhill, in terms of the soft product. So, should we really be surprised that AA is scrimping on the MCE section of Y and the F cabin?

Whereas in the 1990s, a lot of people flew for business at the drop of a hat, today the old WWII line, "Is this trip really necessary?" seems to be used a lot.
 
fanofjets
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Re: Pax and Pilots hate AA B737-Max

Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:32 pm

ikolkyo wrote:
I’m scared to imagine how an similarly configured A321 would look like.


An even scarier thought would be similarly configured A380....
The aeroplane has unveiled for us the true face of the earth. -Antoine de Saint-Exupery
 
QXAS
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Re: Pax and Pilots hate AA B737-Max

Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:42 pm

zeke wrote:
sixtyseven wrote:
Ask them what airplane is better to do their job in? What airplane they’d rather have in an emergency, heavy crosswind, etc. Ask them pilot questions, not passenger questions.

Do that and your answer will most certainly be different.


People like myself who have flown both A & B prefer A, the biggest thing for me is the lower noise levels. I feel less fatigued after every flight.

I fly through typhoon conditions every year, A handles it well. Not sure what you are referring to in terms of emergencies, A is very gentle.

A lot of people they harp on about B being better never flown anything else.

Be careful as to avoid absolutes. I know plenty of pilots who have flown A and B and prefer B. I know other pilots who have flown A, B, and D and prefer B or D. If you tell me the majority prefer A, yes I’ll agree with you. I’ve heard “I love the Airbus until something goes wrong and then I love the Boeing”. Boeing pilots I know tend to feel more like they’re a part of the plane, Airbus pilots I know say they feel like a computer programmer. But to say “people who fly both prefer A” is an absolute generalization. Add a “most”, or a “typically” or even “the majority” and I’ll have no problem agreeing with you. I understand English isn’t the first language for a lot of users on this site. But an opinion based post like yours, should be stated as such.
I am NOT an employee of any airline or manufacturer. I speak for myself, not on the behalf of any company.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Pax and Pilots hate AA B737-Max

Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:53 pm

ckfred wrote:
Whereas in the 1990s, a lot of people flew for business at the drop of a hat, today the old WWII line, "Is this trip really necessary?" seems to be used a lot.

Things change a lot.

In the 80s/90s it was pretty common for "in the trenches" corporate workers to fly for training. I was an IBMer in that time frame and the standard for even junior programmers like me was one week a year of such travel. My manager even joked about "education vacations"! A lot of IBM's training centers were in appealing locations, and it wasn't just internal people at such training, it was lots of corporate customers too, mostly all enjoying a junket on the company's dime.

One of the many reasons why I left IBM was because of such things. My young mind couldn't wrap itself around a company filled with spoiled spungers. I couldn't see how it could last. Turns out I wasn't too far off the mark. Not that I was above taking the trip. I just couldn't see how it'd all work in the long run.

I've been in corporate life ever since and these days I see next to no travel for training happening these days, especially the kind that would happen outside the employer's own company. These days very little official training happens as compared to the old days (instead we're told to figure it out on our own), and that which does happen is heavily internet based (log on to this portal with this password, blah blah blah).

Many other things that used to happen via travel also happen via internet-based audio and/or video teleconferencing. Everyone's already paying for an internet feed, no need to get a boss's boss's approval to do what you need to do to get the job done.
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EricAY05
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Re: Pax and Pilots hate AA B737-Max

Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:56 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
EricAY05 wrote:
TheRedBaron wrote:
The race to the bottom will continue as long as Joe average wants a ridiculous cheap fare...


This is a myth. If we don't count Basic Economy (and similar products), the prices are going up, not down.


Can you point to a BTS data set (or other with similar reliable construction and reporting) that shows prices rising faster than inflation over an extended period? I don't believe you can.

This says airfare in constant $ (inflation adjusted) is down 24% from 1995 thru 2Q2017. The proportion of Basic Economy fares can't be anywhere rich enough to cover that.

https://www.rita.dot.gov/bts/airfares/p ... Fares.html


I can not. But anyone who has flown domestic regularly during the last decade must have noticed this. Ever since airlines started merging big time the prices have gone up. I've been flying domestically in the US every year since 2007 and have certainly noticed this. Yes there was the economic downturn and there were years when airlines made huge losses, but it doesn't really matter. What matters is that since 2007 prices have increased and comfort has decreased. Not to even mention how difficult it is these days to gain status on AA/DL/UA and make travel more comfortable without paying premium.
 
SonomaFlyer
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Re: Pax and Pilots hate AA B737-Max

Fri Mar 02, 2018 7:01 pm

With MCE at only 34", that doesn't really help a whole lot. It also doesn't change the number of bathrooms nor the size of the bathrooms.

It really wouldn't be a big deal on shorter segments. However, this a/c will be used on long segments of five and six hours which will make the experience miserable to say the least unless you are a kid or "little person."

Many of us on this site look for things like equipment when making their decisions, I know I do. I'm happy to pay a bit more and not feel like I'm squished in a sardine can in my seat or in the toilet. I get that economics rule the day and its all our fault (and computers) for bargain hunting but mashing folks together is helping to fuel the passenger issues we see on a weekly basis. You can't cage folks up cheek and jowl together for several hours in extremely tight conditions and not expect problems.
 
Brickell305
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Re: Pax and Pilots hate AA B737-Max

Fri Mar 02, 2018 7:09 pm

ckfred wrote:
Brickell305 wrote:
ckfred wrote:
So, when a UA employee flies AA because of the price, that really shows that price is the number one factor.

In the days of regulation, people picked airlines because of a variety of factors. My father avoided Eastern like the plague, because so many flights were late. He liked Delta morning flights, because its breakfast were southern, often with grits. When his salary grade permitted him to fly F, he flew Braniff whenever possible, because dinner often meant cherries jubilee for dessert.

These days, about the only time people choose based on the soft and hard product are for flights to Europe, Asia, or Latin America, if you can fly J or F.



And they plan to deploy the plane to Latin America. For all the people who say this is because people are choosing the lowest prices, does that also apply to business class passengers to Latam/Caribbean destinations like UIO, LIM, POS and BOG? The business class pitch has also been reduced on this plane and as stated before, there is no dedicated business cabin; just a curtain basically between main cabin and business. Are the business class passengers also looking to pay Spirit fares and only deciding based on price? Main Cabin Extra also has reduced pitch. Are the elites and non-elites who pay extra who reserve the MCE seats also bargain basement discount hunters?


You need to factor into the discussion the issue of corporate contracts. A person may upgrade to MCE, but his company may be paying for him to fly Y on AA, and he can't fly WN, B6, UA, DL, and AS. By the same token, how many people upgrade to F?

Back in the 1970s, my father worked for Swift & Co. Anyone who was a director or higher could book F. If a director was traveling with employees who were lower than a director, they could also book F. But even in the early 1980s, the rule changed, and directors or vice presidents traveling with managers had to fly Y. You saw a lot of directors deciding they needed to travel early or later, so that they didn't have to fly Y with direct reports.

Fast forward to today. I know vice presidents of large companies who can only book domestic Y. Companies aren't as generous with premium travel as they were. My wife used to work for a company that used to allow travel in F for domestic flights over 4 hours. That was back in the early 1990s. By the time she left in 2005, there was no F travel in the system, and someone in Chicago flying to London would have had to book Y, because there was a minimum of 10 hours scheduled flight time, in order to book J.

For my wife to fly with her current employer, it takes her boss and his boss to sign off on travel. Needless to say, she isn't the road warrior that she was with past employers, because travel is frankly frowned upon for anyone who isn't in a senior position with the company.

If seats in F tend to be filled with upgraded passengers, then airlines may very well decide that the F cabin on a narrowbody doesn't have to be that nice.

The funny thing is that my father-in-law used to fly Delta a lot in the 1990s, when he consulted part time while teaching college full time. He flew enough that he was second tier on SkyMiles. But, even between 1994 and 2005, when he stopped traveling for business, he had a lot of complaints about how DL domestic F had gone downhill, in terms of the soft product. So, should we really be surprised that AA is scrimping on the MCE section of Y and the F cabin?

Whereas in the 1990s, a lot of people flew for business at the drop of a hat, today the old WWII line, "Is this trip really necessary?" seems to be used a lot.

If the issue is that J is not selling as it used to in the past, why not simply reduce the number of J seats? That would solve two problems at once. J wouldn't be as cramped as it is and you'd end up giving away less seats to upgrades. They decided to keep the same number of J seats which suggests to me that there is no issue with J seat sales.
 
OB1504
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Re: Pax and Pilots hate AA B737-Max

Fri Mar 02, 2018 7:12 pm

I routinely fly Frontier and Spirit, so I found AA’s 737 MAX to be just fine (except for the dollhouse-sized lavatories)... except I’d be hard pressed to pay a premium for it. If AA wants to compete with ULCCs by offering a similar product instead of something someone could justify paying more for, I suppose they know what they’re doing. I think AA knew this would be a comparably lackluster offering compared to what’s being rolled out on the widebodies and that’s why the extent of the festivities for the inaugural only consisted of a couple of balloons at the gate area.

Brickell305 wrote:
And they plan to deploy the plane to Latin America. For all the people who say this is because people are choosing the lowest prices, does that also apply to business class passengers to Latam/Caribbean destinations like UIO, LIM, POS and BOG? The business class pitch has also been reduced on this plane and as stated before, there is no dedicated business cabin; just a curtain basically between main cabin and business. Are the business class passengers also looking to pay Spirit fares and only deciding based on price? Main Cabin Extra also has reduced pitch. Are the elites and non-elites who pay extra who reserve the MCE seats also bargain basement discount hunters?


Where are you getting LIM from? I can’t believe AA would deploy the MAX to one of their premium destinations.

That being said... who else are you going to fly to some of those places? It’s the same reason AA can get away with its tired 767 Y product on Latin American routes. UIO going to a MAX will definitely be a downgrade since it’s currently 2x daily 757s with lie flats, but BOG is currently A319s and POS was A321s, so it’s not a dramatically different offering.

kbmiflyer wrote:
Also, it is not just the legroom. It is 12 more people in the waiting area, 12 more people waiting for the tiny bathroom, 12 more people for the FA's to serve, 12 more people to load and unload. 12 more people with bags (I know they have larger bins to help with this). Just a more unpleasant experience.


They also need an extra 5 minutes (or 15% more) to board compared to the 160-seat 737-800.

Slash787 wrote:
Can someone post pictures of the cabin and the bathroom


There are no photos of the lav available because a person and a camera won’t fit! :lol:

In all seriousness, Gary Leff posted some photos in his writeup: https://viewfromthewing.boardingarea.co ... ally-like/

superjeff wrote:
American's 7M8 has 34" pitch in MCE (was 36" on 738), 37" pitch in F/J (was 40" on 738). I'd pay a bit more if I could for MCE, but there are only 18 seats (3 rows) and the pitch is what regular Y was only a few years ago. AA got a lot of flack when they introduced their A319's several years ago (before the US merger), acknowledged that there was a problem, then did nothing about it. And now they're talking about raising fares because fuel costs are going up (but they never lowered it over the past couple of years when fuel costs were low). The airlines are our main means of intercity travel these days. In the U.S. (and Canada), trains are really not an option, so you're stuck. There needs to be some minimum set of standards as to seat comfort, etc. I think that 30" pitch may result in safety issues as well. Can they evacuate a plane that's so tight in an emergency in 90 seconds? And, for our European friends, BA and LH have gone to 180 seats on an A320 which is really no better. What's the advantage of flying a legacy rather than a ULLC?


Allegiant, Spirit, and Frontier all have 28” pitch with no safety issues to note. Also, AA has been flying A319s with 30” for years now.
 
sixtyseven
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Re: Pax and Pilots hate AA B737-Max

Fri Mar 02, 2018 7:17 pm

QXAS wrote:
zeke wrote:
sixtyseven wrote:
Ask them what airplane is better to do their job in? What airplane they’d rather have in an emergency, heavy crosswind, etc. Ask them pilot questions, not passenger questions.

Do that and your answer will most certainly be different.


People like myself who have flown both A & B prefer A, the biggest thing for me is the lower noise levels. I feel less fatigued after every flight.

I fly through typhoon conditions every year, A handles it well. Not sure what you are referring to in terms of emergencies, A is very gentle.

A lot of people they harp on about B being better never flown anything else.

Be careful as to avoid absolutes. I know plenty of pilots who have flown A and B and prefer B. I know other pilots who have flown A, B, and D and prefer B or D. If you tell me the majority prefer A, yes I’ll agree with you. I’ve heard “I love the Airbus until something goes wrong and then I love the Boeing”. Boeing pilots I know tend to feel more like they’re a part of the plane, Airbus pilots I know say they feel like a computer programmer. But to say “people who fly both prefer A” is an absolute generalization. Add a “most”, or a “typically” or even “the majority” and I’ll have no problem agreeing with you. I understand English isn’t the first language for a lot of users on this site. But an opinion based post like yours, should be stated as such.


The title of this thread is an absolute. Ridiculous.
Last edited by sixtyseven on Fri Mar 02, 2018 7:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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glideslope
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Re: Pax and Pilots hate AA B737-Max

Fri Mar 02, 2018 7:19 pm

TheRedBaron wrote:
The race to the bottom will continue as long as Joe average wants a ridiculous cheap fare...


Yup. Deregulation at it's finest. :checkeredflag:
To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
 
sixtyseven
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Re: Pax and Pilots hate AA B737-Max

Fri Mar 02, 2018 7:27 pm

zeke wrote:
sixtyseven wrote:
I’m talking about FLYING the airplane. Not riding around in one.


It sounds like you have never actuallyflown anything except B, and you don’t know anything else.

Flying an aircraft is something you can do on your days off the way you want to, operating an airliner is what you do at work, the way the boss tellls you. Anyone who says different is kidding themselves.


I have flown both extensively.

It sounds to me like you made an assumption and fell flat on your face. Relax and try the decaf.
Stand-by for new ATIS message......
 
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zeke
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Re: Pax and Pilots hate AA B737-Max

Fri Mar 02, 2018 7:49 pm

sixtyseven wrote:

I have flown both extensively.

It sounds to me like you made an assumption and fell flat on your face. Relax and try the decaf.


For a person who has flown both types “extensively” you really don’t know how to do a crosswind landing to handle and engine out ?

“Ask them what airplane is better to do their job in? What airplane they’d rather have in an emergency, heavy crosswind, etc. Ask them pilot questions, not passenger questions.”

Give me a break....

By far the better aircraft “to do their job in” is an Airbus. It is quieter, more room, better laid out, better ventilation. My only Boeing is the 747, flown A319/A320/A321/A330/A340/A350. The 747 was cramped, noisy, and a more work to do simple things.

If you want to fly the way you want to fly how you want to, do that on your days off without paid passengers and someone else’s name on the side of the aircraft.

At work do your job the way you boss tells you and that does not involve flying, you are operating an airliner. Every part of that operation is monitored, nothing fancy is required.

Anyone who says any different is full of B/S.

Given I fly in typhoon conditions every year, and find aircraft rating renewals where we deal with emergencies dead easy in an Airbus makes me think you don’t have extensive experience on Airbus at all.
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kjeld0d
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Re: Pax and Pilots hate AA B737-Max

Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:04 pm

Brickell305 wrote:
thgsr08 wrote:
Drama Queens. These people should fly on JJ's A321 from AEP-GRU to see what feels like to be cramped.
Can't imagine how tight is FrenchBee's A350, with 411 seats or JAL's 773 with 520 seats.
They're complaining for nothing.

However, I didn't understan why pilots are complaning for. Are they oversized? Do they need to change clothes or take a shower in it?
From now, the MAX's longest route takes no more than 3 hours and people can wait to use the toilet - unless they're oversized, as I said before, or they're looking for a spa - mostly of them don't even go to the toilet.
People complain' about everything.

Why even have a toilet on the plane right? Just have everyone hold it until arrival.


Wait a second, aren't those little wax paper bags meant for that???
 
Planeflyer
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Re: Pax and Pilots hate AA B737-Max

Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:48 pm

Love luv! Their max 8 was fine.

Haven’t been AA’s version but given the size of most of my fellow countryman I have little sympathy with this “ they’re killing us routine. Eat a damn carrot or two or three.

And before you start in with he lack of leg room angle just remember the last time you sat next to some walrus sized passenger.
 
QXAS
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Re: Pax and Pilots hate AA B737-Max

Fri Mar 02, 2018 9:18 pm

sixtyseven wrote:
QXAS wrote:
zeke wrote:

People like myself who have flown both A & B prefer A, the biggest thing for me is the lower noise levels. I feel less fatigued after every flight.

I fly through typhoon conditions every year, A handles it well. Not sure what you are referring to in terms of emergencies, A is very gentle.

A lot of people they harp on about B being better never flown anything else.

Be careful as to avoid absolutes. I know plenty of pilots who have flown A and B and prefer B. I know other pilots who have flown A, B, and D and prefer B or D. If you tell me the majority prefer A, yes I’ll agree with you. I’ve heard “I love the Airbus until something goes wrong and then I love the Boeing”. Boeing pilots I know tend to feel more like they’re a part of the plane, Airbus pilots I know say they feel like a computer programmer. But to say “people who fly both prefer A” is an absolute generalization. Add a “most”, or a “typically” or even “the majority” and I’ll have no problem agreeing with you. I understand English isn’t the first language for a lot of users on this site. But an opinion based post like yours, should be stated as such.


The title of this thread is an absolute. Ridiculous.

An absolute I can’t disprove, hence I can’t say anything on that matter. Absolute statements only kill your statement if someone can find even one contradictory example. Basic debate knowledge.
I don’t know any pax/pilots that like the AA MAX. Therefore I don’t take issue with the thread title which is a basic observation that there are pax and pilots who hate the aircraft. Based upon the layout the aircraft has, I would also hate it.
However the statement that pilots who fly both prefer A infers that there are no exceptions.
Last edited by QXAS on Fri Mar 02, 2018 9:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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pdt2f
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Re: Pax and Pilots hate AA B737-Max

Fri Mar 02, 2018 9:29 pm

Revelation wrote:
commavia wrote:
In the case of airlines, costs continue to rise, so I'm not sure why people seem to be so shocked that, gradually, eventually, on average, fares are rising, too. Airlines are already making extremely narrow profit margins as it is. So if consumers want to continue to travel by air, they'll either have to accept (1) higher fares, (2) reduced products and services for those fares, and/or (3) some combination thereof. This is really simple economics.

Meanwhile, the major US airlines have undergone huge amounts of consolidation and are making record huge profits. I don't think consumers are going to trace the changes back to their behavior.

I appreciate your point of view, but I doubt it's the one that will take hold.


Imagine that, a private company making profit offering a service that consumers obviously want. Airlines aren’t public utilities, you know.
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ual747den
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Re: Pax and Pilots hate AA B737-Max

Fri Mar 02, 2018 9:35 pm

Blimpie wrote:
Sorry to all those who love to use the argument, that AA and the other airlines are giving the customer what they want. That's a bullspit argument. Just because the customer wants something doesn't mean that a company should provide that. What if customers demand McBurger Box starts selling all burgers with nicotine and all their shakes are laced with weed spray, it doesn't mean that McBurger Box should start selling it.


Well yes, if their customers are demanding it then they probably should start selling it or I will start selling it and all of their customers will come to me because I gave them what they wanted.

Blimpie wrote:
It use to be that companies took pride in the quality of the goods and services that they would provide, and would refuse to cut the corners of quality to serve a customer. The fact that the legacies are willing to reduce their quality to such a dismal level to appeal to the lowest bucket fare customers is ridiculous.


Yet the legacy carriers are making record profits.

Blimpie wrote:
The way I see it these days, the legacies are equivalent to seeing Lexus or Porsche pushing a $12'000 USD 1.0l economic sub-compact to the most frugal or poorest customer. There are plenty of costumers out there still willing to pay for 32" legroom and a comp bag of chips with free checked bags out there to keep the airlines afloat. And, there are plenty of ULCCs and LCCs out there to appeal to the rest.

Offer a good quality product and service and people will be willing to pay for it. The legacies weren't losing customers to the LCCs because of cost, they lost it due to crap service and corporate greed. Race to the bottom.... sheesh.


The data is clear and you are wrong, most people are NOT willing to pay more for a better quality product when it comes to airfare. The good part, however, is that if you are one of those people who is willing to pay more for a quality product you can do that, just upgrade to First! How often do you purchase a ticket in first?

Blimpie wrote:
I didn't stop flying AA because of seat sizes, I stopped flying them because their quality has turned to crap like UA's.

Now, get the hell off my lawn, you damn kids.

/end old man rant


So what airline do you fly?
Frontier Airlines - Low Fares Done Right
 
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Polot
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Re: Pax and Pilots hate AA B737-Max

Fri Mar 02, 2018 9:39 pm

zeke wrote:
sixtyseven wrote:

I have flown both extensively.

It sounds to me like you made an assumption and fell flat on your face. Relax and try the decaf.


By far the better aircraft “to do their job in” is an Airbus. It is quieter, more room, better laid out, better ventilation. My only Boeing is the 747, flown A319/A320/A321/A330/A340/A350. The 747 was cramped, noisy, and a more work to do simple things.

So in summation you are not any more qualified to talk about flying Boeings versus Airbus than he is, and your opinion is not anymore right.
 
sixtyseven
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Re: Pax and Pilots hate AA B737-Max

Fri Mar 02, 2018 9:44 pm

zeke wrote:
sixtyseven wrote:

I have flown both extensively.

It sounds to me like you made an assumption and fell flat on your face. Relax and try the decaf.


For a person who has flown both types “extensively” you really don’t know how to do a crosswind landing to handle and engine out ?

“Ask them what airplane is better to do their job in? What airplane they’d rather have in an emergency, heavy crosswind, etc. Ask them pilot questions, not passenger questions.”

Give me a break....

By far the better aircraft “to do their job in” is an Airbus. It is quieter, more room, better laid out, better ventilation. My only Boeing is the 747, flown A319/A320/A321/A330/A340/A350. The 747 was cramped, noisy, and a more work to do simple things.

If you want to fly the way you want to fly how you want to, do that on your days off without paid passengers and someone else’s name on the side of the aircraft.

At work do your job the way you boss tells you and that does not involve flying, you are operating an airliner. Every part of that operation is monitored, nothing fancy is required.

Anyone who says any different is full of B/S.

Given I fly in typhoon conditions every year, and find aircraft rating renewals where we deal with emergencies dead easy in an Airbus makes me think you don’t have extensive experience on Airbus at all.


Hahahaha. What is all this engine out crosswind talk all about. You’re killing me pal.

“Given I fly in typhoon conditions every year”might be the best quote ever on this site. You’re the best. Hahahahahahaha. Typhoon Charlie.
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sixtyseven
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Re: Pax and Pilots hate AA B737-Max

Fri Mar 02, 2018 9:47 pm

QXAS wrote:
sixtyseven wrote:
QXAS wrote:
Be careful as to avoid absolutes. I know plenty of pilots who have flown A and B and prefer B. I know other pilots who have flown A, B, and D and prefer B or D. If you tell me the majority prefer A, yes I’ll agree with you. I’ve heard “I love the Airbus until something goes wrong and then I love the Boeing”. Boeing pilots I know tend to feel more like they’re a part of the plane, Airbus pilots I know say they feel like a computer programmer. But to say “people who fly both prefer A” is an absolute generalization. Add a “most”, or a “typically” or even “the majority” and I’ll have no problem agreeing with you. I understand English isn’t the first language for a lot of users on this site. But an opinion based post like yours, should be stated as such.


The title of this thread is an absolute. Ridiculous.

An absolute I can’t disprove, hence I can’t say anything on that matter. Absolute statements only kill your statement if someone can find even one contradictory example. Basic debate knowledge.
I don’t know any pax/pilots that like the AA MAX. Therefore I don’t take issue with the thread title which is a basic observation that there are pax and pilots who hate the aircraft. Based upon the layout the aircraft has, I would also hate it.
However the statement that pilots who fly both prefer A infers that there are no exceptions.


I’ll give you that, no doubt.
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MrBretz
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Re: Pax and Pilots hate AA B737-Max

Fri Mar 02, 2018 9:48 pm

Here is a video of an Alaska 737-900. At 1:15, they show the bathroom. This looks exactly like the small bathroom I have had on a UA 737-900. My guess would be that the American 737MAX has the same bathroom. I wouldn't call any airline bathroom luxurious. They are all pretty disgusting. This one is rather small and I am glad I am not very big.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2FPJKQQ_nk
 
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ual747den
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Re: Pax and Pilots hate AA B737-Max

Fri Mar 02, 2018 9:58 pm

zeke wrote:
sixtyseven wrote:

I have flown both extensively.

It sounds to me like you made an assumption and fell flat on your face. Relax and try the decaf.


For a person who has flown both types “extensively” you really don’t know how to do a crosswind landing to handle and engine out ?

“Ask them what airplane is better to do their job in? What airplane they’d rather have in an emergency, heavy crosswind, etc. Ask them pilot questions, not passenger questions.”

Give me a break....

By far the better aircraft “to do their job in” is an Airbus. It is quieter, more room, better laid out, better ventilation. My only Boeing is the 747, flown A319/A320/A321/A330/A340/A350. The 747 was cramped, noisy, and a more work to do simple things.

If you want to fly the way you want to fly how you want to, do that on your days off without paid passengers and someone else’s name on the side of the aircraft.

At work do your job the way you boss tells you and that does not involve flying, you are operating an airliner. Every part of that operation is monitored, nothing fancy is required.

Anyone who says any different is full of B/S.

Given I fly in typhoon conditions every year, and find aircraft rating renewals where we deal with emergencies dead easy in an Airbus makes me think you don’t have extensive experience on Airbus at all.


How can you be the definitive word on which aircraft is better to fly when you admit that you don't have much experience in Boeing aircraft?

There is obviously no correct answer to the question of which is better to fly because that is completely subjective. You might like Airbus I might like Boeing, how can you say who is wrong or right?
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zeke
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Re: Pax and Pilots hate AA B737-Max

Fri Mar 02, 2018 10:03 pm

sixtyseven wrote:
Hahahaha. What is all this engine out crosswind talk all about. You’re killing me pal.

“Given I fly in typhoon conditions every year”might be the best quote ever on this site. You’re the best. Hahahahahahaha. Typhoon Charlie.


I do multiple times every year, so do thousands of other pilots that operate through MNL, TPE, HKG every summer.

I take it you have never operated in typhoon conditions then ?
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flybynight
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Re: Pax and Pilots hate AA B737-Max

Fri Mar 02, 2018 10:15 pm

sagechan wrote:
Buy an MCE or a First seat problem solved.


I so dislike this. So if you don't pay 3x more for a ticket, we are going to make you uncomfortable? Besides, most 737's have aboutt 12 - 18 first class seats.

It isn't really a Boeing or Airbus issue. It is the airline squeezing in more and more seats. It really sucks sitting there for 3 hours with your knees banging up agaist the seat in front of you.
Heia Norge!
 
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zeke
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Re: Pax and Pilots hate AA B737-Max

Fri Mar 02, 2018 10:21 pm

ual747den wrote:
How can you be the definitive word on which aircraft is better to fly when you admit that you don't have much experience in Boeing aircraft?


The number of type ratings does not make one inexperienced, the 747 used to be the backbone of all passenger and freight flying where I work.

You notice how our Air Canada 67 username friend claimed extensive experience on both Airbus and Boeings but has not come out to say what that is ? Last 18-19 years on the 767/777 ?
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
sixtyseven
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Re: Pax and Pilots hate AA B737-Max

Fri Mar 02, 2018 10:31 pm

zeke wrote:
ual747den wrote:
How can you be the definitive word on which aircraft is better to fly when you admit that you don't have much experience in Boeing aircraft?


The number of type ratings does not make one inexperienced, the 747 used to be the backbone of all passenger and freight flying where I work.

You notice how our Air Canada 67 username friend claimed extensive experience on both Airbus and Boeings but has not come out to say what that is ? Last 18-19 years on the 767/777 ?


Listen here Chuck. You’re not getting my resume. You’ve flown through typhoons for chrissakes how can I compete.

Maybe you should post your logbook on here so you can impress everyone BUT the pilots on here.
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zeke
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Re: Pax and Pilots hate AA B737-Max

Fri Mar 02, 2018 10:37 pm

jakubz wrote:
But in all seriousness, are you talking about flying in the edge of the typhoon? What kind of wind speeds and rainfall are you talking about? Depending on where on the continuum this is, I might be worried about an airline that flies "in typhoon conditions ever year".


Can get up to 30-40 kts of crosswind, rain is just water, the main impact being the reduced crosswind permitted on a wet runway.

Normally stop flying when it gets up to 50-60 kts as too many things on the ground can become problems like containers. At the gate aircraft are normally semi-protected by the building so doors can still be operated.

They are the conditions that you have lots of gas, an alternate a fair distance away, have a go. If the conditions are good enough to land you do, if not you go elsewhere. Often you see a few aircraft get in then some miss out as it is always changing which makes it interesting.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
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zeke
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Re: Pax and Pilots hate AA B737-Max

Fri Mar 02, 2018 10:44 pm

sixtyseven wrote:
Listen here Chuck. You’re not getting my resume. You’ve flown through typhoons for chrissakes how can I compete.


Just as I figured, talk the talk ....

I’ll just bin your previous comments about all this extensive experience you claimed with crosswind and emergencies on Airbus and Boeing aircraft. It was your comments that got us here.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
QXAS
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Re: Pax and Pilots hate AA B737-Max

Fri Mar 02, 2018 10:54 pm

sixtyseven wrote:
zeke wrote:
ual747den wrote:
How can you be the definitive word on which aircraft is better to fly when you admit that you don't have much experience in Boeing aircraft?


The number of type ratings does not make one inexperienced, the 747 used to be the backbone of all passenger and freight flying where I work.

You notice how our Air Canada 67 username friend claimed extensive experience on both Airbus and Boeings but has not come out to say what that is ? Last 18-19 years on the 767/777 ?


Listen here Chuck. You’re not getting my resume. You’ve flown through typhoons for chrissakes how can I compete.

Maybe you should post your logbook on here so you can impress everyone BUT the pilots on here.

Hold up.... your only Boeing time is on the 744/742 and you’re on a 737 thread claiming that A is better for the pilot than B. Now I consider you to be knowledgeable on many topics we cover on this site. But you have 0 hours in a 73. Thus you know nothing relevant to this thread besides what you’ve been told.
I don’t care how many typhoons you’ve flown through. That opens up a whole new can of worms about your ADM.
So please don’t act as if you’ve got superior insider knowledge that the people you’re debating may or may not actually have. Stating your opinion is fine, but this elitism when you have no personal experience in the relevant airplane is not.
I am NOT an employee of any airline or manufacturer. I speak for myself, not on the behalf of any company.
 
sixtyseven
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Re: Pax and Pilots hate AA B737-Max

Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:45 pm

zeke wrote:
sixtyseven wrote:
Listen here Chuck. You’re not getting my resume. You’ve flown through typhoons for chrissakes how can I compete.


Just as I figured, talk the talk ....

I’ll just bin your previous comments about all this extensive experience you claimed with crosswind and emergencies on Airbus and Boeing aircraft. It was your comments that got us here.


Where did I claim to have extensive experience with emergencies? Show me. You can’t. Because I didn’t. You’ve made that entire statement up. In a wild rant.

I have not said that I have extensive experience with emergencies (knock on wood) anywhere in this thread. I said I have extensive experience on both A and B is all. You however fly in typhoons.

Make sure to sign the autographs, Typhoon Chuck.
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TheRedBaron
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Re: Pax and Pilots hate AA B737-Max

Sat Mar 03, 2018 12:00 am

An suddenly we have a pissing contest Airliners Circa 2008.... and then we wonder why some very knowledgeable pilots leave the site.

Time for this thread to get to locksville...
The best seat in a Plane is the Jumpseat.
 
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N62NA
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Re: Pax and Pilots hate AA B737-Max

Sat Mar 03, 2018 12:27 am

santi319 wrote:
N62NA wrote:
Not mentioned in the article: There is no longer an F cabin, just a 6 inch "divider" hanging from the ceiling behind the last row of F. I will avoid this plane for as long as possible.


Oh God the horror!

American travellers compared to Europeans need to get a grip, no Margaret and Phil you won't pay $150 RT and expect a bed and a three course menu in a 1:15 flight...



I'm quite familiar with coach masquerading as a "premium cabin" on the European airlines. In fact I'll be flying BA LHR-OSL in the "premium cabin" in a few weeks.

I think you may be a bit misinformed as to what the US airlines charge for F. MIA to NYC on AA is typically $315 each way. So yes, for $315 that I am paying for domestic first, I would like to NOT have the feet of the people in coach bumping up against my seat in the last row of F. A six inch divider hanging from the ceiling - like the European airlines do - just doesn't cut it.
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zippy
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Re: Pax and Pilots hate AA B737-Max

Sat Mar 03, 2018 12:32 am

santi319 wrote:
Theres literally not even first class on short/medium haul European "legacy" airlines....


Sure but there is food and beverage service. When I flew FRA-CDG last year in cattle class, LH served gravlox sandwiches (free). Meanwhile when I flew SEA-SFO on DL (forget if it was SkyWest or Compass) we didn't get snacks or beverages in F (free or paid).
 
DDR
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Re: Pax and Pilots hate AA B737-Max

Sat Mar 03, 2018 12:46 am

Thread title is mis leading. Flight attendants hate it also!
 
adh214
Posts: 361
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Re: Pax and Pilots hate AA B737-Max

Sat Mar 03, 2018 12:52 am

flybynight wrote:
sagechan wrote:
Buy an MCE or a First seat problem solved.


I so dislike this. So if you don't pay 3x more for a ticket, we are going to make you uncomfortable? Besides, most 737's have aboutt 12 - 18 first class seats.

It isn't really a Boeing or Airbus issue. It is the airline squeezing in more and more seats. It really sucks sitting there for 3 hours with your knees banging up agaist the seat in front of you.


Yeah, it is real thrill when you pay those high prices and they force downgrade you anyway. "Sorry flight delay you can take coach or miss your cruise, thanks for the $1400. Now go screw yourself and we need you to pay the luggage fee."

No wonder no one pays for first.
 
commavia
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Re: Pax and Pilots hate AA B737-Max

Sat Mar 03, 2018 1:04 am

Revelation wrote:
Meanwhile, the major US airlines have undergone huge amounts of consolidation and are making record huge profits.


"Record huge profits," in absolute terms, are meaningless. What is far more meaningful is margin, and AA, Delta and United in 2017 all produced net margins in the mid-to-high single digits. This is hardly unreasonable - indeed, given the cost, risk and complexity involved, I'd say it's still too low.

The inescapable reality - whether some people here want to accept it or not - is that, sooner or later, consolidation was going to happen. Whether through liquidation or acquisition, it was an economic imperative. The airline industry was consistently destroying unspeakable sums of capital. And at some point, capital was going to go on strike - owners and lenders would simply stop bankrolling the madness. And, indeed, that's precisely what happened. In hindsight, it almost certainly happened far slower than it should have. U.S. antitrust and bankruptcy laws, along with stupid airline entrepreneurs skilled at finding even-more-stupid investors, perpetuated the industry's financial self-immolation for over two decades.

The result of consolidation is a vastly more rational industry structure finally capable of creating balanced value for all of stakeholders - including not just passengers, but also employees, vendors and, as the market deems risk-appropriate, for owners. And if that means that passengers have a bit less choice, and/or must pay a bit higher fares, and/or must accept a bit of a diminished product/service offering (at least in some ways, like less legroom on some 737s and A321s) for the price they pay, then frankly, that is perfectly fine by me. To be blunt - U.S. air travel consumers were getting far too good a deal for far too long. As a regular air travel consumer myself, I benefit far more - over the long-run - from a stable, investment-worthy industry as opposed to a weak, chronically under-invested industry.
 
greendot
Posts: 213
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Re: Pax and Pilots hate AA B737-Max

Sat Mar 03, 2018 1:14 am

masseybrown wrote:
Customer complaints get nowhere on things like seat size. What will happen is there will be an air-rage incident on a flight that involves someone congressional. Congress will step in and regulate seat size; and it will be the airlines' own fault.


Or... perhaps a people having cramps or other nebulous medical issues that force a flight to divert. Diversions cost money! I'm surprised this has happened yet.
 
SurlyBonds
Posts: 331
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Re: Pax and Pilots hate AA B737-Max

Sat Mar 03, 2018 1:14 am

pdt2f wrote:
. In the same breath people will complain about how narrow seats are and how expensive it is to fly. Pay more, get more. Flying is a fraction of the cost it was in the regulation era but people insist on acting like they should get an Emirates suite for Spirit prices.


Now, lemme get this straight. *Pilots* asking for a lav big enough to turn around in is suddenly the equivalent of demanding an Emirates suite?
 
SurlyBonds
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Re: Pax and Pilots hate AA B737-Max

Sat Mar 03, 2018 1:17 am

AAvgeek744 wrote:

Sooner or later it's going to happen with all airlines. More seats = more butts = more revenue.


Unless, of course, we re-regulate the airlines.
 
Varsity1
Posts: 1907
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Re: Pax and Pilots hate AA B737-Max

Sat Mar 03, 2018 1:22 am

zeke wrote:
sixtyseven wrote:

I have flown both extensively.

It sounds to me like you made an assumption and fell flat on your face. Relax and try the decaf.


For a person who has flown both types “extensively” you really don’t know how to do a crosswind landing to handle and engine out ?

“Ask them what airplane is better to do their job in? What airplane they’d rather have in an emergency, heavy crosswind, etc. Ask them pilot questions, not passenger questions.”

Give me a break....

By far the better aircraft “to do their job in” is an Airbus. It is quieter, more room, better laid out, better ventilation. My only Boeing is the 747, flown A319/A320/A321/A330/A340/A350. The 747 was cramped, noisy, and a more work to do simple things.

If you want to fly the way you want to fly how you want to, do that on your days off without paid passengers and someone else’s name on the side of the aircraft.

At work do your job the way you boss tells you and that does not involve flying, you are operating an airliner. Every part of that operation is monitored, nothing fancy is required.

Anyone who says any different is full of B/S.

Given I fly in typhoon conditions every year, and find aircraft rating renewals where we deal with emergencies dead easy in an Airbus makes me think you don’t have extensive experience on Airbus at all.



If emergencies are so easy in the bus, why do they crash at such a high rate?

I fly for a living as well, and I'd take the 737 every time. Sure, it's "loud" like some little girl pilots complain, but I don't have guess about what it's doing and the VNAV actually works.

Airbus's are designed for the lowest common denominator pilot with minimal training. I don't need or want that.
"PPRuNe will no longer allow discussions regarding Etihad Airlines, its employees, executives, agents, or other representatives. Such threads will be deleted." - ME3 thug airlines suing anyone who brings negative information public..
 
Varsity1
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Re: Pax and Pilots hate AA B737-Max

Sat Mar 03, 2018 1:23 am

zippy wrote:
santi319 wrote:
Theres literally not even first class on short/medium haul European "legacy" airlines....


Sure but there is food and beverage service. When I flew FRA-CDG last year in cattle class, LH served gravlox sandwiches (free). Meanwhile when I flew SEA-SFO on DL (forget if it was SkyWest or Compass) we didn't get snacks or beverages in F (free or paid).


Either the weather was bad (too rough for service) or you're bold face lying.

Everything is free in F on DL.
"PPRuNe will no longer allow discussions regarding Etihad Airlines, its employees, executives, agents, or other representatives. Such threads will be deleted." - ME3 thug airlines suing anyone who brings negative information public..
 
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KPDX
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Re: Pax and Pilots hate AA B737-Max

Sat Mar 03, 2018 3:11 am

DDR wrote:
Thread title is mis leading. Flight attendants hate it also!


Okay guys, Airliners.net has spoken. Pilots, flight attendants, and passengers hate the 737 MAX. Can someone please write an email to Boeing corporate with these findings?

Thanks.

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