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brian415
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LAX perpetual terminal patchwork with Midfield Satellite Concourse (TBIT)

Thu Mar 01, 2018 5:41 pm

LAX's poor terminal layout means that they will always be playing catch-up with international gateway brethren.

https://airwaysmag.com/airports/one-year-groundbreaking-midfield-satellite-concourse-taking-shape-west-tom-bradley-international-terminal/

Does this actually fit in with the airport's long-term master plan? Or is it simply a stopgap measure to thwart carrier defection to other gateways?
 
nine4nine
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Re: LAX perpetual terminal patchwork with Midfield Satellite Concourse (TBIT)

Thu Mar 01, 2018 6:01 pm

I fly from LAX quite frequently. I dont find it poor at all. I actually think it’s quite efficient. You don’t get long take off lines like you do at JFK, BOS, EWR and many other airports due to the placement of terminals adjacent the north/south complexes. I do think that the new air train connecting all the terminals will be a huge and much needed add that should have been done long ago.
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gregn21
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Re: LAX perpetual terminal patchwork with Midfield Satellite Concourse (TBIT)

Thu Mar 01, 2018 6:04 pm

You have to remember that something like 75% of passengers at LAX are not connecting, which is unheard of. The airport is designed in the interest of the departing or arriving passenger, not a connecting passenger. Furthermore, most US airlines with major international connecting partners are positioned strategically within the airport (DL and AA will both have Bradley connectors eventually. The MSC is just an expansion of the Bradley Terminal so yes, it does fit in with long term plans.
 
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LAXintl
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Re: LAX perpetual terminal patchwork with Midfield Satellite Concourse (TBIT)

Thu Mar 01, 2018 6:17 pm

The Midfield Sattelite Concourse very much us part of the master-plan and will provide additional terminal gate capacity for booming international demand at the airport.

Regarding the remainder of the airport, let's remember since the late 1950s and the satellite terminal concept, the airport was designed to facilitate and
to minimize distances between the curb and gates for local O&D demand, hence the horseshoe design. LAX was never designed for nor currently intended for mass connection flow traffic.
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janders
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Re: LAX perpetual terminal patchwork with Midfield Satellite Concourse (TBIT)

Thu Mar 01, 2018 6:37 pm

For all the crap people give LAX, it actually does exactly what its supposed to do quite well.

I've always found it relatively easy to use with indeed short distances from curb to gate. Also with individual terminals, one is not stuck in massive security checkpoints meant for the entire airport like DEN, ATL, etc. Also, with the 4 parallel runways combined with great weather makes it a smooth operation.

And lets remember its doing all this while serving 85 million people annually!

I'm sure the MSC will be a nice addition to the already gorgeous TBIT facility.
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bzcat
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Re: LAX perpetual terminal patchwork with Midfield Satellite Concourse (TBIT)

Thu Mar 01, 2018 7:01 pm

This thread is not going in the direction OP wanted.

LAX layout is great for the vast majority of people (and airlines) using it. The only thing that needs to be addressed is access points beyond the perimeter horseshoe, which is what the APM will do.
 
Chemist
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Re: LAX perpetual terminal patchwork with Midfield Satellite Concourse (TBIT)

Thu Mar 01, 2018 7:23 pm

nine4nine wrote:
I fly from LAX quite frequently. I dont find it poor at all. I actually think it’s quite efficient. You don’t get long take off lines like you do at JFK, BOS, EWR and many other airports due to the placement of terminals adjacent the north/south complexes. I do think that the new air train connecting all the terminals will be a huge and much needed add that should have been done long ago.


LAX is very efficient on the runway side - four (nearly) parallel runways and rare weather problems.
LAX is a nightmare in the terminals - mostly old (some refurbished recently but still small/tight) and limited connections between terminals. The connections that do exist are often underground and obscure. There is no airside inter-terminal transit system.
LAX is also a nightmare getting to the airport. There is no train service to the airport. The traffic is horrendous. The airport loop is massively congested at many hours of the day. I find it easier as an O&D passenger to park at ParkNFly and WALK to any of the terminals (up to half a mile or so) rather than taking the shuttle.
 
Noise
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Re: LAX perpetual terminal patchwork with Midfield Satellite Concourse (TBIT)

Thu Mar 01, 2018 7:55 pm

Chemist wrote:
nine4nine wrote:
I fly from LAX quite frequently. I dont find it poor at all. I actually think it’s quite efficient. You don’t get long take off lines like you do at JFK, BOS, EWR and many other airports due to the placement of terminals adjacent the north/south complexes. I do think that the new air train connecting all the terminals will be a huge and much needed add that should have been done long ago.


LAX is very efficient on the runway side - four (nearly) parallel runways


Nearly parallel??? I thought they were definitely parallel? No?
 
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Re: LAX perpetual terminal patchwork with Midfield Satellite Concourse (TBIT)

Thu Mar 01, 2018 8:06 pm

Noise wrote:
Chemist wrote:
nine4nine wrote:
I fly from LAX quite frequently. I dont find it poor at all. I actually think it’s quite efficient. You don’t get long take off lines like you do at JFK, BOS, EWR and many other airports due to the placement of terminals adjacent the north/south complexes. I do think that the new air train connecting all the terminals will be a huge and much needed add that should have been done long ago.


LAX is very efficient on the runway side - four (nearly) parallel runways


Nearly parallel??? I thought they were definitely parallel? No?


Well they are numbered 25's and 24's, I don't know if they are actually parallel or offset by a few degrees. I'm sure somebody here knows.
 
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mercure1
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Re: LAX perpetual terminal patchwork with Midfield Satellite Concourse (TBIT)

Thu Mar 01, 2018 8:17 pm

LAX is one of my favorite US gateways. Very reliable and rather easy to use.
While terminals might need some work they are far better than before and new TBIT is fantastic.

I would rather deal with any downsides of LAX than for example deal with delay and reliability issues of airports like SFO or JFK/EWR.

And suppose yes it's important to remain minfull LAX manages quite well being one of the busiest airports globally.
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chrisair
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Re: LAX perpetual terminal patchwork with Midfield Satellite Concourse (TBIT)

Thu Mar 01, 2018 8:22 pm

When all four runways are in operation, the flow of the aircraft movement in my experience is great. I don't usually see too many taxi delays, especially since Delta is on the north side now.

However, getting TO or leaving the airport is awful. Leaving is especially bad at night after a long weekend. As someone said above, it's easier and faster to walk to the terminal than riding around the horseshoe. With Clear and PreCheck, it's generally pretty painless at security.
 
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Re: LAX perpetual terminal patchwork with Midfield Satellite Concourse (TBIT)

Thu Mar 01, 2018 8:31 pm

While it is great for OD pax with mostly short distances from curb to gate, the main problem with the airport is the ever increasing congestion in the alleys and lack of gates. For instance yesterday I flew SJC-LAX on WN and it took us 30 minuets from landing till we were at the gate. A few days before that I flew ARN-LAX on SAS and again it took about 25 minutes to reach our gate due to congestion in the alley between TBIT/T4. Unfortunately the problem seems to have gotten worse over the last few years, and you can tell that from looking at how padded the flight schedules are. AA has some SFO-LAX flights scheduled as +2hrs.
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Re: LAX perpetual terminal patchwork with Midfield Satellite Concourse (TBIT)

Thu Mar 01, 2018 8:39 pm

LAX should demolish the whole North side especially the old TWA terminal where Delta is now and then demolish the whole south side of terminal 4 to 8. Those buildings were built in the 1960's for 707's not the 777 and A350 being used today. The decades of modification on top of modification have produced terminal hell with building too small for what is demanded of them. The whole of LAX needs to be rebuilt it was done at JFK, where today only terminals 2 and 7 are old, Los Angeles deserves better from its airport then what is there now.
 
SurfandSnow
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Re: LAX perpetual terminal patchwork with Midfield Satellite Concourse (TBIT)

Thu Mar 01, 2018 8:39 pm

Perhaps you are confusing the new, world class TBIT facility with the old TBIT terminal that was built for the 1984 Olympics? The new TBIT is a fantastic terminal that, less than 5 years after opening, is already bursting at the seams. It's not like any of the other terminals at LAX have much room to spare, either. The MSC will be a welcome addition to an airport that frequently uses remote gates and loooooooong bus rides for planes that can't use jetways at any of the main terminals. Keep in mind that LAX serves a booming local and state economy that set records last year - a remarkable achievement in the midst of controversial federal policies.

https://www.dailynews.com/2018/01/10/la ... t-records/

The only issue with TBIT these days is the lack of a dedicated roadway, forcing passengers to endure hellish traffic as they pass by all of the airport's other congested terminals. Other major U.S. airports like ATL, ORD and SFO do have dedicated access roads to their respective domestic and international facilities. Hopefully the arrival of public transit and completion of the inter-terminal people mover will reduce traffic - but is anyone surprised that the massive airport serving Los Angeles suffers from awful traffic pretty much all day and night?
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cschleic
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Re: LAX perpetual terminal patchwork with Midfield Satellite Concourse (TBIT)

Thu Mar 01, 2018 8:50 pm

Chemist wrote:
Noise wrote:
Chemist wrote:

LAX is very efficient on the runway side - four (nearly) parallel runways


Nearly parallel??? I thought they were definitely parallel? No?


Well they are numbered 25's and 24's, I don't know if they are actually parallel or offset by a few degrees. I'm sure somebody here knows.


The numbering probably is just to differentiate the north and south sides, not reflecting an actual direction. Also, it would be difficult to label four with the same number. A few airports have three...L, C (center) and R but four would be...??? Atlanta is similar to LAX....8s on one side, 9s on the other and the one 10 runway that's the newer, outermost one. It reduces confusion.
 
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Re: LAX perpetual terminal patchwork with Midfield Satellite Concourse (TBIT)

Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:45 pm

SurfandSnow wrote:

The only issue with TBIT these days is the lack of a dedicated roadway, forcing passengers to endure hellish traffic as they pass by all of the airport's other congested terminals. Other major U.S. airports like ATL, ORD and SFO do have dedicated access roads to their respective domestic and international facilities. Hopefully the arrival of public transit and completion of the inter-terminal people mover will reduce traffic - but is anyone surprised that the massive airport serving Los Angeles suffers from awful traffic pretty much all day and night?


You do realize that there are connector roads from the north side to the south. Between T1 & T2 there is a road to T6/T7 and between T2 & T3 there is a road to T5/T6. The only terminals that require a full loop is TBIT and T4. From T1- T3 you can access the less traveled airport exit road down the middle of the central parking structures and avoid the TBIT-T7 traffic.
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Re: LAX perpetual terminal patchwork with Midfield Satellite Concourse (TBIT)

Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:52 pm

cschleic wrote:
Chemist wrote:
Noise wrote:

Nearly parallel??? I thought they were definitely parallel? No?


Well they are numbered 25's and 24's, I don't know if they are actually parallel or offset by a few degrees. I'm sure somebody here knows.


The numbering probably is just to differentiate the north and south sides, not reflecting an actual direction. Also, it would be difficult to label four with the same number. A few airports have three...L, C (center) and R but four would be...??? Atlanta is similar to LAX....8s on one side, 9s on the other and the one 10 runway that's the newer, outermost one. It reduces confusion.


You can't simply state "not reflecting an actual direction" Of course they reflect an actual direction: 240 degrees and 250 degrees. Of course I realize you know that, being on this forum and all, but that part of your statement is simply erroneous whether you meant it to be or not.
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Re: LAX perpetual terminal patchwork with Midfield Satellite Concourse (TBIT)

Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:54 pm

cschleic wrote:
Chemist wrote:
Noise wrote:

Nearly parallel??? I thought they were definitely parallel? No?


Well they are numbered 25's and 24's, I don't know if they are actually parallel or offset by a few degrees. I'm sure somebody here knows.


The numbering probably is just to differentiate the north and south sides, not reflecting an actual direction. Also, it would be difficult to label four with the same number. A few airports have three...L, C (center) and R but four would be...??? Atlanta is similar to LAX....8s on one side, 9s on the other and the one 10 runway that's the newer, outermost one. It reduces confusion.


Much like DFW, with five parallel runways (7 if you consider the cross-winds). They have to be numbered differently for obvious reasons that you can really have only three runways with the same numbers.
 
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Re: LAX perpetual terminal patchwork with Midfield Satellite Concourse (TBIT)

Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:55 pm

cschleic wrote:
Chemist wrote:
Noise wrote:

Nearly parallel??? I thought they were definitely parallel? No?


Well they are numbered 25's and 24's, I don't know if they are actually parallel or offset by a few degrees. I'm sure somebody here knows.


The numbering probably is just to differentiate the north and south sides, not reflecting an actual direction. Also, it would be difficult to label four with the same number. A few airports have three...L, C (center) and R but four would be...??? Atlanta is similar to LAX....8s on one side, 9s on the other and the one 10 runway that's the newer, outermost one. It reduces confusion.


All runways are numbered with regard to their direction. The magnetic direction for LAX runways are all 251 degrees. However, as you said, with 4 runways it makes it difficult after L, C and R are used.
 
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Re: LAX perpetual terminal patchwork with Midfield Satellite Concourse (TBIT)

Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:58 pm

mercure1 wrote:
LAX is one of my favorite US gateways. Very reliable and rather easy to use.
While terminals might need some work they are far better than before and new TBIT is fantastic.

I would rather deal with any downsides of LAX than for example deal with delay and reliability issues of airports like SFO or JFK/EWR.

And suppose yes it's important to remain minfull LAX manages quite well being one of the busiest airports globally.


I mean, when you compare it to SFO or the new york catastrophe then yes, it is better. But I disagree that it is a good airport. TBIT is nice on its own, but the rest of the terminals are cramped and still fairly dumpy.

The issue with LAX is continuing to shoehorn fixes into the already built environment as opposed to a teardown and rebuild. By virtue of this decision making, LAX will remain a decent-at-best airport trailing the rest of the world.
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Re: LAX perpetual terminal patchwork with Midfield Satellite Concourse (TBIT)

Thu Mar 01, 2018 11:08 pm

brian415 wrote:
is it simply a stopgap measure to thwart carrier defection to other gateways?


"[C]arrier defection" to which other gateways? SFO? Terrible airfield layout with frequent delays and zero room to expand the current international terminal. SEA? Nowhere near enough room to accommodate much international carrier growth. ONT? LOL. Weak local catchment area and very little partner connectivity. SAN? One runway and very little terminal space for international carriers. PHX? Weak local market for international travel and only one legacy carrier with a hub.

Even with its well-known flaws, LAX is the best option on the west coast for foreign carriers, hands-down. The local market is enormous, the airfield works well, and all three alliances have a U.S. carrier with a hub at the airport. SFO is a decent option for Star Alliance carriers thanks to the UA hub, but the airfield is problematic and leads to a poor customer experience due to delays.
 
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Re: LAX perpetual terminal patchwork with Midfield Satellite Concourse (TBIT)

Thu Mar 01, 2018 11:23 pm

As a connecting passenger LAX can and frequently is a nightmare... As a O&D passenger LAX is wonderful. I've made it car to gate more than a handful of times in 5-10 minutes arriving ~30min before my flight. TBIT is a great facility while the other terminals lag behind, and the bottom line is LAX can expand continuously for the next 10-15 years yet it may still be behind airline demand. Construction of these modern airport terminals in the US takes so long that the capacity planned for is often exceeded shortly after opening. If we consider all the carriers at LAX that want more space I'd bet that an additional 30 gates would be maxed out almost immediately.
 
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Re: LAX perpetual terminal patchwork with Midfield Satellite Concourse (TBIT)

Thu Mar 01, 2018 11:36 pm

jfk777 wrote:
LAX should demolish the whole North side especially the old TWA terminal where Delta is now and then demolish the whole south side of terminal 4 to 8. Those buildings were built in the 1960's for 707's not the 777 and A350 being used today. The decades of modification on top of modification have produced terminal hell with building too small for what is demanded of them. The whole of LAX needs to be rebuilt it was done at JFK, where today only terminals 2 and 7 are old, Los Angeles deserves better from its airport then what is there now.


Are the terminals really beyond help? It cost a ton of money and the process hasn’t been fun but Terminal 1 is actually pretty nice now despite the fact that the work is not yet done.
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LAXintl
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Re: LAX perpetual terminal patchwork with Midfield Satellite Concourse (TBIT)

Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:01 am

jfk777 wrote:
LAX should demolish the whole North side especially the old TWA terminal where Delta is now and then demolish the whole south side of terminal 4 to 8. Those buildings were built in the 1960's for 707's not the 777 and A350 being used today. The decades of modification on top of modification have produced terminal hell with building too small for what is demanded of them. The whole of LAX needs to be rebuilt it was done at JFK, where today only terminals 2 and 7 are old, Los Angeles deserves better from its airport then what is there now.


Its funny you continue repeating the same thing in thread after thread, yet continue to forget many of todays terminals have nothing to with the 1960s, but are entirely newly built structures.

T-1 - Entirely newly built in 1984. Just wrapping up a major renovation
T-2 - Entirely newly built in 1989. Big renovation completed in 2016. As new tenant Delta launching its own additional renovations.
T-3 - Satellite structure largely original. Several small renovations over the years, and now DL launching its own work in combination with T-2.
T-4 - Almost entirely rebuilt by AA in 2002 as part of major renovation. AA last year announced another $1.5bil renovation project.
T-5 - Entirely newly built in 1988. Several small renovations over the years
T-6 - Satellite structure largely original, but connector newer. Several rounds of renovations latest complete in 2016.
T-7 - Major UA renovation just wrapping up. Many ways unrecognizable from its original roots
T-8 - Newly built in 1999

So the reality is outside of the satellite structures in T-3 and T-6, there is not much of LAX left from the 1960s with virtually every terminal either having built brand new from scratch since, or seen major renovations.
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MSPNWA
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Re: LAX perpetual terminal patchwork with Midfield Satellite Concourse (TBIT)

Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:07 am

LAXintl wrote:
jfk777 wrote:
LAX should demolish the whole North side especially the old TWA terminal where Delta is now and then demolish the whole south side of terminal 4 to 8. Those buildings were built in the 1960's for 707's not the 777 and A350 being used today. The decades of modification on top of modification have produced terminal hell with building too small for what is demanded of them. The whole of LAX needs to be rebuilt it was done at JFK, where today only terminals 2 and 7 are old, Los Angeles deserves better from its airport then what is there now.


Its funny you continue repeating the same thing in thread after thread, yet continue to forget many of todays terminals have nothing to with the 1960s, but are entirely newly built structures.

T-1 - Entirely newly built in 1984. Just wrapping up a major renovation
T-2 - Entirely newly built in 1989. Big renovation completed in 2016. As new tenant Delta launching its own additional renovations.
T-3 - Satellite structure largely original. Several small renovations over the years, and now DL launching its own work in combination with T-2.
T-4 - Almost entirely rebuilt by AA in 2002 as part of major renovation. AA last year announced another $1.5bil renovation project.
T-5 - Entirely newly built in 1988. Several small renovations over the years
T-6 - Satellite structure largely original, but connector newer. Several rounds of renovations latest complete in 2016.
T-7 - Major UA renovation just wrapping up. Many ways unrecognizable from its original roots
T-8 - Newly built in 1999

So the reality is outside of the satellite structures in T-3 and T-6, there is not much of LAX left from the 1960s with virtually every terminal either having built brand new from scratch since, or seen major renovations.


That doesn't address the point that LAX's issue that the airport design is largely stuck in the '60s. Yes, some terminals are newer and others have been recently renovated, but for the most part that's lipstick on a pig. It hasn't fixed the small footprints, limited gates, cramped ramp and taxi space, congested terminals, and gridlocked land-side roads and corridors. In the long run I also wish LAX would have faced the pain and rebuilt the airport in a better way. Instead we're looking at status quo for decades to come. This satellite concourse brings badly needed space, but it's a shame this isn't part of a brand new midfield concourse setup.
Last edited by MSPNWA on Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
bzcat
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Re: LAX perpetual terminal patchwork with Midfield Satellite Concourse (TBIT)

Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:08 am

Antarius wrote:

The issue with LAX is continuing to shoehorn fixes into the already built environment as opposed to a teardown and rebuild. By virtue of this decision making, LAX will remain a decent-at-best airport trailing the rest of the world.


That's clearly not true.

TBIT was a complete tear down and new build job. The entire air side is new build. LAWA build a new terminal to the west of the old TBIT and then demolished the old TBIT once the new TBIT opened. It had to be done in phases so the old gates can remain in service while construction happened on the other side.

MSC North is new and expanded the terminal footprint. There was nothing to tear down (unless you count the AA hanger and Coast Guard station).

MSC South will similarly be brand new build.

UA's T9 proposal will see its terminal expand across Sepulveda Blvd to the other side of LAX.

Southwest's T0 proposal will be new build as well located at where Park One is now.

But it seems really the problem is people's obsession with tear down as if there is no opportunity costs involved. A complete tear down and rebuild of one side of LAX will put 30 or 40% of the gates out of use during construction. That's not a feasible solution. What Delta is doing with T2 and T3 is the best solution. Incremental improvement works just fine and LAX is currently undergoing a pretty significant building boom. In a few years, the entire north side will be connected once T1.5 and Delta's T2 and T3 rebuild is completed. And AA has proposed rebuilding T5 once MSC South is completed.

The APM station structure will also provide land side passage ways to connect north and south side terminals for the first time.
 
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Re: LAX perpetual terminal patchwork with Midfield Satellite Concourse (TBIT)

Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:21 am

The terminal loop is exactly what gives LAX major advantage.
With airlines being in their own terminals the distances are manageable, and LAX does not have crazy long concourses such as ATL as an example. Outside of TBIT, I don't think any gate at LAX is more than 1,000 feet from the curb!
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tcaeyx
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Re: LAX perpetual terminal patchwork with Midfield Satellite Concourse (TBIT)

Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:38 am

LAX could've gone the way of having multiple satellite concourses on the west side of the property as in this picture: https://imgur.com/a/CaCYV, but obviously this never panned out.

Source: 2004 LAX Master Plan
 
Antarius
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Re: LAX perpetual terminal patchwork with Midfield Satellite Concourse (TBIT)

Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:24 am

bzcat wrote:
Antarius wrote:

The issue with LAX is continuing to shoehorn fixes into the already built environment as opposed to a teardown and rebuild. By virtue of this decision making, LAX will remain a decent-at-best airport trailing the rest of the world.


That's clearly not true.

TBIT was a complete tear down and new build job. The entire air side is new build. LAWA build a new terminal to the west of the old TBIT and then demolished the old TBIT once the new TBIT opened. It had to be done in phases so the old gates can remain in service while construction happened on the other side.

MSC North is new and expanded the terminal footprint. There was nothing to tear down (unless you count the AA hanger and Coast Guard station).

MSC South will similarly be brand new build.

UA's T9 proposal will see its terminal expand across Sepulveda Blvd to the other side of LAX.

Southwest's T0 proposal will be new build as well located at where Park One is now.

But it seems really the problem is people's obsession with tear down as if there is no opportunity costs involved. A complete tear down and rebuild of one side of LAX will put 30 or 40% of the gates out of use during construction. That's not a feasible solution. What Delta is doing with T2 and T3 is the best solution. Incremental improvement works just fine and LAX is currently undergoing a pretty significant building boom. In a few years, the entire north side will be connected once T1.5 and Delta's T2 and T3 rebuild is completed. And AA has proposed rebuilding T5 once MSC South is completed.

The APM station structure will also provide land side passage ways to connect north and south side terminals for the first time.


there are several examples globally where they have made it work. TXL has the temporary Concourse C, AUH has the old airport absolutely busting at its seams etc. Yes the teardown and rebuild will be ugly and you likely have some awful temporary building in the interim, but that is what it takes to take a real step forward. Honestly, a crap temporary building will be just as bad as the American Eagle mess they have now, so several of us deal with satellite shacks already.

yes TBIT was a new build, but once you leave TBIT, which is a very nice terminal, you go back 30 years into the rest of LAX.

Incremental rebuilds will make LAX better than it is now, but it won't even come close to being a top world airport with that approach.
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brian415
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Re: LAX perpetual terminal patchwork with Midfield Satellite Concourse (TBIT)

Fri Mar 02, 2018 7:26 am

bzcat wrote:
This thread is not going in the direction OP wanted. [..]

LOL!
 
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Re: LAX perpetual terminal patchwork with Midfield Satellite Concourse (TBIT)

Fri Mar 02, 2018 7:34 am

tcaeyx wrote:
LAX could've gone the way of having multiple satellite concourses on the west side of the property as in this picture: https://imgur.com/a/CaCYV, but obviously this never panned out.

Source: 2004 LAX Master Plan

They're gonna have to do something like this eventually. Otherwise, they'll need to resurrect plans to turn PMD (linked via high-speed rail) into the future LAX replacement.

Even a high-speed linked desert airport like VCV could be the LAX replacement.
 
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Re: LAX perpetual terminal patchwork with Midfield Satellite Concourse (TBIT)

Fri Mar 02, 2018 7:45 am

Antarius wrote:
I mean, when you compare it to SFO or the new york catastrophe then yes, it is better. But I disagree that it is a good airport. TBIT is nice on its own, but the rest of the terminals are cramped and still fairly dumpy.

SFO is a world class facility that beats LAX by a mile! The runways have similar problems at both, since lateral separation is 700 to 750-ish feet.

The only problem with SFO is flow control. If that problem were solved (via floating runways or technology), carriers would flock to SFO and LAX would lose out. SFO is not hemmed in the way LAX is.
 
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Re: LAX perpetual terminal patchwork with Midfield Satellite Concourse (TBIT)

Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:05 am

brian415 wrote:
They're gonna have to do something like this eventually. Otherwise, they'll need to resurrect plans to turn PMD (linked via high-speed rail) into the future LAX replacement.

Even a high-speed linked desert airport like VCV could be the LAX replacement.

Not a chance in hell that either would be accepted as that by locals.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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Re: LAX perpetual terminal patchwork with Midfield Satellite Concourse (TBIT)

Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:52 pm

brian415 wrote:
Antarius wrote:
I mean, when you compare it to SFO or the new york catastrophe then yes, it is better. But I disagree that it is a good airport. TBIT is nice on its own, but the rest of the terminals are cramped and still fairly dumpy.

SFO is a world class facility that beats LAX by a mile! The runways have similar problems at both, since lateral separation is 700 to 750-ish feet.

The only problem with SFO is flow control. If that problem were solved (via floating runways or technology), carriers would flock to SFO and LAX would lose out. SFO is not hemmed in the way LAX is.


Personally, I am a fan of the way LAX is laid out and think it is a fine airport (very easy to navigate, quick walk to baggage after landing, etc.). SFO is also a solid airport too. You're not going to see floating runways at SFO, or any sort of physical expansion of SFO's footprint out into the Bay. Carriers are also not going to leave LAX and flock to SFO; LAX is the primary gateway to one of the largest air markets in the world and has a ton of O&D traffic. That's not going anywhere and LAX will continue to remain a massive gateway.
 
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Re: LAX perpetual terminal patchwork with Midfield Satellite Concourse (TBIT)

Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:39 pm

brian415 wrote:
Antarius wrote:
I mean, when you compare it to SFO or the new york catastrophe then yes, it is better. But I disagree that it is a good airport. TBIT is nice on its own, but the rest of the terminals are cramped and still fairly dumpy.

SFO is a world class facility that beats LAX by a mile! The runways have similar problems at both, since lateral separation is 700 to 750-ish feet.

The only problem with SFO is flow control. If that problem were solved (via floating runways or technology), carriers would flock to SFO and LAX would lose out. SFO is not hemmed in the way LAX is.


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Re: LAX perpetual terminal patchwork with Midfield Satellite Concourse (TBIT)

Fri Mar 02, 2018 4:09 pm

brian415 wrote:
Antarius wrote:
I mean, when you compare it to SFO or the new york catastrophe then yes, it is better. But I disagree that it is a good airport. TBIT is nice on its own, but the rest of the terminals are cramped and still fairly dumpy.

SFO is a world class facility that beats LAX by a mile! The runways have similar problems at both, since lateral separation is 700 to 750-ish feet.

The only problem with SFO is flow control. If that problem were solved (via floating runways or technology), carriers would flock to SFO and LAX would lose out. SFO is not hemmed in the way LAX is.


:confused: :confused:

You must live in a parallel universe

First lets start with fact that LAX has 4 runways which can be used simultaneously, unlike SFO with its intersecting pairs.

While the LAX north airfield centerlines are separated by 700 ft, on the south complex an entirely new 25L runway was built in 2008 along with a with a new 75 ft taxiway built in between 25L and 25R with centerline distance far greater.

Second, the airfield capacity of the two airports is immensely different, both due their configurations and local weather issues.

SFO per FAA 2015 airfield capacity analysis report in VFR conditions has a 100 hourly Dep(55)/Arrival(45) rate which drops 65 in IFR conditions.
LAX on the other hand has stated 176 rate in VFR and 138 in IFR. Add in fact that LAX operates VFR 92% of the time, further solidifies it throughput.

And your last comment about flocking to SFO, if anything SFO might steal traffic from SJC or OAK, but the notion carriers would reduce LAX or broader LA basin in favor of SF defies logic. Nothing stops anyone from serving a Bay Area airport today, but as we can see airlines have much more capacity in LA which naturaly makes sense as its a larger market than the Bay Area.
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Re: LAX perpetual terminal patchwork with Midfield Satellite Concourse (TBIT)

Fri Mar 02, 2018 4:45 pm

B747forever wrote:
While it is great for OD pax with mostly short distances from curb to gate, the main problem with the airport is the ever increasing congestion in the alleys and lack of gates. For instance yesterday I flew SJC-LAX on WN and it took us 30 minuets from landing till we were at the gate. A few days before that I flew ARN-LAX on SAS and again it took about 25 minutes to reach our gate due to congestion in the alley between TBIT/T4. Unfortunately the problem seems to have gotten worse over the last few years, and you can tell that from looking at how padded the flight schedules are. AA has some SFO-LAX flights scheduled as +2hrs.

Most hubs have long waits for takeoff, with long taxi distances in many cases. LAX is the reverse, where takeoff happens rather quickly, but you often wait for gates to clear.

The midfield concourse, T9 (eventually) and T0 (T1 extension most likely) will help with gate space. The work on T2-3 with TBIT connector will improve things.

As for infield congestion, there is now a body of proof that shows that Uber and Lyft create congestion. People who would otherwise take public transportation are now using rideshare out of convenience. At the airport, it’s likelythis manifests as people not taking super shuttle as much or parking at off airport sites and using their shuttles, instead clogging up the roadways with cars. LAX tried to mitigate this by sending ride share to departure level, but that has only made departure level more crowded and now people have to get to the airport earlier in order to not miss flights.

One solution would be to have an Uber/lyft off-site location and shuttle buses to take you there. Or force Uber/lyft to park in the garages like limos/town cars do.
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Re: LAX perpetual terminal patchwork with Midfield Satellite Concourse (TBIT)

Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:05 pm

brian415 wrote:
Antarius wrote:
I mean, when you compare it to SFO or the new york catastrophe then yes, it is better. But I disagree that it is a good airport. TBIT is nice on its own, but the rest of the terminals are cramped and still fairly dumpy.

SFO is a world class facility that beats LAX by a mile! The runways have similar problems at both, since lateral separation is 700 to 750-ish feet.

The only problem with SFO is flow control. If that problem were solved (via floating runways or technology), carriers would flock to SFO and LAX would lose out. SFO is not hemmed in the way LAX is.


The locals will not allow floating runways or landfill at SFO it's already been tried and failed. So yes SFO is totally hemmed in. LAX west side had terminals blocked years back due to houses on the west side of the airport. Those no longer exist. So there is a possibility there for an LLC terminal separate from the main complex.
 
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Re: LAX perpetual terminal patchwork with Midfield Satellite Concourse (TBIT)

Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:20 pm

An old episode of Here's Lucy from 1969, "Lucy and the Great Airport Chase", has good shots of LAX with the unconnected satellite terminals.
 
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Re: LAX perpetual terminal patchwork with Midfield Satellite Concourse (TBIT)

Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:25 pm

LAXintl wrote:
T-8 - Newly built in 1999

I know as your name implies and from previous posts, you are quite knowledgable about LAX, but wasn’t T-8 part of the original early 60s terminal complex? I know it’s gate layout has been reconfigured over the years, but growing up in LA in a United family, I know it was there in my childhood (late 70’s-80’s). We’re you referring to the regional terminal across Sepulveda?
 
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Re: LAX perpetual terminal patchwork with Midfield Satellite Concourse (TBIT)

Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:41 pm

Beechtobus wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
T-8 - Newly built in 1999

I know as your name implies and from previous posts, you are quite knowledgable about LAX, but wasn’t T-8 part of the original early 60s terminal complex? I know it’s gate layout has been reconfigured over the years, but growing up in LA in a United family, I know it was there in my childhood (late 70’s-80’s). We’re you referring to the regional terminal across Sepulveda?


Yes there was a T-8 extension part of the original facility, but like T-2 and T-5 new structure were built in its place. The remaining original remnants of T-8 today is the area below gates 80-81 which are occupied by UA ops and admin office, but the remainder of the concourse is largely an entirely new building that was built during the Shuttle by United days.
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Re: LAX perpetual terminal patchwork with Midfield Satellite Concourse (TBIT)

Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:52 pm

Even if SFO were to build floating runways or whatever, the traffic exists in LA and carriers wouldn't just get up and move flights to SFO...they are 2 completely different markets.

I think getting the people mover built and consolidated rental car facility will make a huge impact on traffic in the loop as the rental car shuttles make up a large amount of the traffic and are merging in and out of traffic at all 9 terminals.

The insides of the terminals that have been redone are beautiful. I think T1 is nearly complete and WN even widened most of the terminal to make it less cramped. The work UA has been doing to T7/T8 makes parts of it look completely different than a few years ago.

All 9 terminals are almost all connected on the secure side, which is quite a change from a few years ago.
 
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Re: LAX perpetual terminal patchwork with Midfield Satellite Concourse (TBIT)

Fri Mar 02, 2018 7:46 pm

Antarius wrote:
bzcat wrote:
Antarius wrote:

The issue with LAX is continuing to shoehorn fixes into the already built environment as opposed to a teardown and rebuild. By virtue of this decision making, LAX will remain a decent-at-best airport trailing the rest of the world.


That's clearly not true.

TBIT was a complete tear down and new build job. The entire air side is new build. LAWA build a new terminal to the west of the old TBIT and then demolished the old TBIT once the new TBIT opened. It had to be done in phases so the old gates can remain in service while construction happened on the other side.

MSC North is new and expanded the terminal footprint. There was nothing to tear down (unless you count the AA hanger and Coast Guard station).

MSC South will similarly be brand new build.

UA's T9 proposal will see its terminal expand across Sepulveda Blvd to the other side of LAX.

Southwest's T0 proposal will be new build as well located at where Park One is now.

But it seems really the problem is people's obsession with tear down as if there is no opportunity costs involved. A complete tear down and rebuild of one side of LAX will put 30 or 40% of the gates out of use during construction. That's not a feasible solution. What Delta is doing with T2 and T3 is the best solution. Incremental improvement works just fine and LAX is currently undergoing a pretty significant building boom. In a few years, the entire north side will be connected once T1.5 and Delta's T2 and T3 rebuild is completed. And AA has proposed rebuilding T5 once MSC South is completed.

The APM station structure will also provide land side passage ways to connect north and south side terminals for the first time.


there are several examples globally where they have made it work. TXL has the temporary Concourse C, AUH has the old airport absolutely busting at its seams etc. Yes the teardown and rebuild will be ugly and you likely have some awful temporary building in the interim, but that is what it takes to take a real step forward. Honestly, a crap temporary building will be just as bad as the American Eagle mess they have now, so several of us deal with satellite shacks already.

yes TBIT was a new build, but once you leave TBIT, which is a very nice terminal, you go back 30 years into the rest of LAX.

Incremental rebuilds will make LAX better than it is now, but it won't even come close to being a top world airport with that approach.


Again, the only terminal that has that "30 years ago" feel is T3 and it is being gutted and rebuild.

LAX doens't need huge terminal buildings like DEN or DFW because it's not a transit airport. And there is no giant hub operations. It has 4 O&D focused airlines roughly of same size and 3 dozen international carriers that have at most 3 daily flights. You build the airport that makes sense for each city. The kind of white elephant airport public works project funded by foreign govt doesn't make any sense for LAX.
 
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Re: LAX perpetual terminal patchwork with Midfield Satellite Concourse (TBIT)

Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:09 pm

bzcat wrote:
Antarius wrote:
bzcat wrote:

That's clearly not true.

TBIT was a complete tear down and new build job. The entire air side is new build. LAWA build a new terminal to the west of the old TBIT and then demolished the old TBIT once the new TBIT opened. It had to be done in phases so the old gates can remain in service while construction happened on the other side.

MSC North is new and expanded the terminal footprint. There was nothing to tear down (unless you count the AA hanger and Coast Guard station).

MSC South will similarly be brand new build.

UA's T9 proposal will see its terminal expand across Sepulveda Blvd to the other side of LAX.

Southwest's T0 proposal will be new build as well located at where Park One is now.

But it seems really the problem is people's obsession with tear down as if there is no opportunity costs involved. A complete tear down and rebuild of one side of LAX will put 30 or 40% of the gates out of use during construction. That's not a feasible solution. What Delta is doing with T2 and T3 is the best solution. Incremental improvement works just fine and LAX is currently undergoing a pretty significant building boom. In a few years, the entire north side will be connected once T1.5 and Delta's T2 and T3 rebuild is completed. And AA has proposed rebuilding T5 once MSC South is completed.

The APM station structure will also provide land side passage ways to connect north and south side terminals for the first time.


there are several examples globally where they have made it work. TXL has the temporary Concourse C, AUH has the old airport absolutely busting at its seams etc. Yes the teardown and rebuild will be ugly and you likely have some awful temporary building in the interim, but that is what it takes to take a real step forward. Honestly, a crap temporary building will be just as bad as the American Eagle mess they have now, so several of us deal with satellite shacks already.

yes TBIT was a new build, but once you leave TBIT, which is a very nice terminal, you go back 30 years into the rest of LAX.

Incremental rebuilds will make LAX better than it is now, but it won't even come close to being a top world airport with that approach.


Again, the only terminal that has that "30 years ago" feel is T3 and it is being gutted and rebuild.

LAX doens't need huge terminal buildings like DEN or DFW because it's not a transit airport. And there is no giant hub operations. It has 4 O&D focused airlines roughly of same size and 3 dozen international carriers that have at most 3 daily flights. You build the airport that makes sense for each city. The kind of white elephant airport public works project funded by foreign govt doesn't make any sense for LAX.


Except that the general footprint of the refurbished terminals hasn't changed much. Compared to a huge number of other airports, the crowding is bad and seating is very tight.
That's after you've fought the traffic situation to get there.

I agree the new TBIT is world class, though.
 
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Re: LAX perpetual terminal patchwork with Midfield Satellite Concourse (TBIT)

Wed Mar 07, 2018 11:33 am

Here is a new video outlining the APM.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_7jaXDtZ2o

I have to say this, combined with real connection to transport and the consolidated rental car facility getting lots of buses off the road will do a lot to relieve congestion. Car rental is one of the worst aspects of LAX right now, especially for how car-dependent the region is.
 
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atypical
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Re: LAX perpetual terminal patchwork with Midfield Satellite Concourse (TBIT)

Sat Mar 10, 2018 10:46 am

I don't live in LA and I never have. If I have a choice between interline transfers at LAX or any other airport with a root canal, I will choose any other airport with the root canal.
 
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Re: LAX perpetual terminal patchwork with Midfield Satellite Concourse (TBIT)

Sat Mar 10, 2018 1:50 pm

[twoid][/twoid]
atypical wrote:
I don't live in LA and I never have. If I have a choice between interline transfers at LAX or any other airport with a root canal, I will choose any other airport with the root canal.

As it has been said many times, LAX is not an airport set up for connecting traffic. Only about 25% of traffic are doing connections. So that’s not a surprise.
However, it is fairly well set up for what it’s mesntto be - an O/D airport.
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Re: LAX perpetual terminal patchwork with Midfield Satellite Concourse (TBIT)

Sat Mar 10, 2018 4:11 pm

nine4nine wrote:
I fly from LAX quite frequently. I dont find it poor at all. I actually think it’s quite efficient. You don’t get long take off lines like you do at JFK, BOS, EWR and many other airports due to the placement of terminals adjacent the north/south complexes. I do think that the new air train connecting all the terminals will be a huge and much needed add that should have been done long ago.


I love LAX except for one thing, which is not limited only to LAX, but more times than not, when I arrive, we are always waiting 20 or 30 minutes for a gate to open up, but one thing I love the most, are the security lines are never long and I'm usually from car to gate in 15 minutes or less.
 
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ua900
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Re: LAX perpetual terminal patchwork with Midfield Satellite Concourse (TBIT)

Sat Mar 10, 2018 7:27 pm

Agree with many others that TBIT is a great facility. Makes even the remodeled T-7 look ugly by comparison. I understand that a lot of people are wooed by the new blue accent lighting and the remodeled UA club near gate 70, but one time through TBIT with the self-playing piano, the live bands at the bar area on the 5th floor and the *A lounge outdoors area will make the shortcomings of the legacy terminal design (rooted in the 60s but updated here and there) become obvious.

One question for those in the know, the future APM seems to be landside. If so, why? Wouldn't it have been faster and cheaper to simply equip these endless tunnels from T-6 to TBIT with moving walkways? I mean the escalators at T-4 are still just one way, anyone else needs to wait for an elevator or use stairs. Little fixes like that could make the whole experience better. No more need for those dumb golf cart derivatives with their arbitrary availability.

IMO LAX does O&D pretty well today, but thinking in terms of it serving as a TPAC connecting hub I think there's always room for improvement. Just copy TBIT every time there's a remodel, that way the opportunity doesn't get squandered.
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Re: LAX perpetual terminal patchwork with Midfield Satellite Concourse (TBIT)

Sat Mar 10, 2018 7:38 pm

atypical wrote:
I don't live in LA and I never have. If I have a choice between interline transfers at LAX or any other airport with a root canal, I will choose any other airport with the root canal.


As others have mentioned, LAX was neither built for connections nor is the airport used much or such.

What connectivity there is, its largely under the same roof by the same airline - be it regional partners or connections to markets like Hawaii.

ua900 wrote:
One question for those in the know, the future APM seems to be landside. If so, why? Wouldn't it have been faster and cheaper to simply equip these endless tunnels from T-6 to TBIT with moving walkways? I mean the escalators at T-4 are still just one way, anyone else needs to wait for an elevator or use stairs. Little fixes like that could make the whole experience better. No more need for those dumb golf cart derivatives with their arbitrary availability.
.


The APM is landside as its meant to connect new consolidated car rental facility, and a transportation center being build down towards the 405 freeway.
APM is not meant for intra-terminal connections.
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