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barney captain
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Re: Southwest may take 500 MAX 7

Sun May 20, 2018 9:56 am

TWA772LR wrote:
RickNRoll wrote:
Southwest looks at all aircraft, including the Bombardier CSeries—but he has no interest in anything but the 737 “as long as I am CEO.”

That sentence is not logically consistent. Why bother looking at other aircraft when you have already decided you won't buy them.

To try to force Boeing's hand in to a better deal for WN. I heard that Herb had a meeting with Boeing and one of his tricks was to light up a smoke with an Airbus cigarette lighter.


Close - he simply nonchalantly pulled out an Airbus pen.

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flyingclrs727
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Re: Southwest may take 500 MAX 7

Sun May 20, 2018 1:29 pm

XT6Wagon wrote:
flyingclrs727 wrote:
airzona11 wrote:

There is no reason to believe Southwest is going smaller. They won't go smaller than the 737-7. Smaller doesn't fit their model.


There are lots of cities that don't have the size to sustain frequencies throughout the day on an airframe the size of a 737-7 Max. There are lots of destinations available from HOU that are not offered on from my home airport of CRP, because the connect times are too long or have too many segments when CRP-HOU is added on. It's so bad I usually just drive to SAT, AUS, or HOU to catch flights. A smaller efficient plane would help by allowing more opportunities for connecting flights throughout the day.


which is why WN likes its web of 1 stop flights. Many flights are only counting on 50% of the plane going to the 1st stop, and 50% continuing on to the next one. Maximizes frequency and allows a 737 to be used like a plane 1/2 its size.


WN has greatly cut back on frequencies in Texas. It makes less sense to fly WN at all from smaller cities. Even international flights that are nonstop from HOU are not bookable from CRP.

It used to be that all the flights from CRP to HOU continued on to DAL. There some flights that went CRP-HOU-DAL-LBB-MAF and the reverse every day, but WN has also cut frequencies on DAL-HOU, so there are fewer opportunities for such routings.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Southwest may take 500 MAX 7

Sun May 20, 2018 2:02 pm

flyingclrs727 wrote:
Even international flights that are nonstop from HOU are not bookable from CRP.


Have another look. I tried three cities - SJD, MEX and CUN - from CRP and they all came up with itins.
 
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flyingclrs727
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Re: Southwest may take 500 MAX 7

Sun May 20, 2018 2:29 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
flyingclrs727 wrote:
Even international flights that are nonstop from HOU are not bookable from CRP.


Have another look. I tried three cities - SJD, MEX and CUN - from CRP and they all came up with itins.


That's new. Still they have just one offering per day to and from CRP to SJD. There are 3 from HOU. There are lots of destinations from the east and west coasts that not available. Try flying EWR-CRP. There are several daily options from AUS, SAT, HOU. Much of Southwest's network is unavailable from CRP through their online reservations system.
 
rbavfan
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Re: Southwest may take 500 MAX 7

Sun May 20, 2018 3:00 pm

QXAS wrote:
WNs boarding system allows for 180 seats max. 60 A, 60 B and 60 C. The 7M10 would have far more than 180 seats. Probably closer to 215 as an arbitrary number. So would WN add a D boarding group in that case?


Based on southwest current pitch & layout the 737-10 would have 205 seats without the 3rd door used, not an option. So 201-203 seats depending on how the 3rd door per side fits in. It could cost them only 2 seats or 3 to 4 seats depending on the door location.
 
pdp
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Re: Southwest may take 500 MAX 7

Sun May 20, 2018 3:26 pm

Forgive my ignorance of Southwest, could they look at the MAX 8 200?
 
7H4
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Re: Southwest may take 500 MAX 7

Sun May 20, 2018 3:36 pm

pdp wrote:
Forgive my ignorance of Southwest, could they look at the MAX 8 200?

I highly doubt that they will take the MAX8 200 because its the same size as the MAX8, but certified for 200 passengers. The WN business model isn't the Ryanair or Spirit business model. They fit 175 seats in their 800s/MAX8s so that would mean squeezing in 25 extra seats in the same size plane.
Any comments/claims/statements are my own and not those of my employer or anyone else.
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grbauc
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Re: Southwest may take 500 MAX 7

Sun May 20, 2018 3:52 pm

RickNRoll wrote:
Southwest looks at all aircraft, including the Bombardier CSeries—but he has no interest in anything but the 737 “as long as I am CEO.”

That sentence is not logically consistent. Why bother looking at other aircraft when you have already decided you won't buy them.



Simple so they know what else is available for comparing to make sure the Boeing price and product and negotiations.
 
osupoke07
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Re: Southwest may take 500 MAX 7

Sun May 20, 2018 4:05 pm

rbavfan wrote:
QXAS wrote:
WNs boarding system allows for 180 seats max. 60 A, 60 B and 60 C. The 7M10 would have far more than 180 seats. Probably closer to 215 as an arbitrary number. So would WN add a D boarding group in that case?


Based on southwest current pitch & layout the 737-10 would have 205 seats without the 3rd door used, not an option. So 201-203 seats depending on how the 3rd door per side fits in. It could cost them only 2 seats or 3 to 4 seats depending on the door location.



At that seat count, I would expect them to only have 200 seats then. My gut says 2-5 seats for one more FA is not a profitable equation.
MD82, MD83, MD88, B717, B732, B733, B735, B737, B738, B739, B752, B763, B77W, CR2, CR7, CR9, A320, A321
 
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flyingclrs727
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Re: Southwest may take 500 MAX 7

Sun May 20, 2018 4:18 pm

rbavfan wrote:
QXAS wrote:
WNs boarding system allows for 180 seats max. 60 A, 60 B and 60 C. The 7M10 would have far more than 180 seats. Probably closer to 215 as an arbitrary number. So would WN add a D boarding group in that case?


Based on southwest current pitch & layout the 737-10 would have 205 seats without the 3rd door used, not an option. So 201-203 seats depending on how the 3rd door per side fits in. It could cost them only 2 seats or 3 to 4 seats depending on the door location.


There's no way WN would add another FA just for 3-5 seats over 200.
 
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flyingclrs727
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Re: Southwest may take 500 MAX 7

Sun May 20, 2018 4:24 pm

7H4 wrote:
pdp wrote:
Forgive my ignorance of Southwest, could they look at the MAX 8 200?

I highly doubt that they will take the MAX8 200 because its the same size as the MAX8, but certified for 200 passengers. The WN business model isn't the Ryanair or Spirit business model. They fit 175 seats in their 800s/MAX8s so that would mean squeezing in 25 extra seats in the same size plane.


I've been on a 737-800 with 186 seats, and it was quite tight. That was with older style seating. I bet 200 seats is doable with slimline seats, but I wouldn't want to have to fly over 3 hours in one.
 
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barney captain
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Re: Southwest may take 500 MAX 7

Sun May 20, 2018 5:37 pm

osupoke07 wrote:
rbavfan wrote:
QXAS wrote:
WNs boarding system allows for 180 seats max. 60 A, 60 B and 60 C. The 7M10 would have far more than 180 seats. Probably closer to 215 as an arbitrary number. So would WN add a D boarding group in that case?


Based on southwest current pitch & layout the 737-10 would have 205 seats without the 3rd door used, not an option. So 201-203 seats depending on how the 3rd door per side fits in. It could cost them only 2 seats or 3 to 4 seats depending on the door location.



At that seat count, I would expect them to only have 200 seats then. My gut says 2-5 seats for one more FA is not a profitable equation.


Absolutely - 200 seats and (hopefully) a fourth lav.
Southeast Of Disorder
 
airzona11
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Re: Southwest may take 500 MAX 7

Sun May 20, 2018 5:52 pm

pdp wrote:
Forgive my ignorance of Southwest, could they look at the MAX 8 200?


Southwest does not fill their planes to max capacity. They are not a ULCC and also do not have a premium cabin that squeezes the pitch in economy. The Max8-200 doesn't add them any advantage over the -8.
 
jplatts
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Re: Southwest may take 500 MAX 7

Sun May 20, 2018 6:00 pm

QXAS wrote:
WNs boarding system allows for 180 seats max. 60 A, 60 B and 60 C. The 7M10 would have far more than 180 seats. Probably closer to 215 as an arbitrary number. So would WN add a D boarding group in that case?


WN's 737-800 and MAX 8 planes have 175 seats, and it is already possible for boarding position C60 to be reached before filling all of the seats on flights that are operated on 737-800 or 737 MAX 8 (since A1-A15 are reserved for those traveling on Business Select fares or those who have paid a fee to upgrade their boarding position). Does WN already issue boarding passes with boarding positions C61-C70 once boarding position C60 is already assigned on flights that are operated on 737-800 or 737 MAX 8 planes if there are more than 165 passengers booked on the flight?
 
texl1649
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Re: Southwest may take 500 MAX 7

Sun May 20, 2018 6:24 pm

Leeham has been saying for about a year they’d go for mainly max8. I don’t think Boeing cares, but I’m sure their unions do. The US rule is a flight attendant for each 50 pax. SWA has built their model around three.
 
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barney captain
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Re: Southwest may take 500 MAX 7

Sun May 20, 2018 6:42 pm

texl1649 wrote:
Leeham has been saying for about a year they’d go for mainly max8. I don’t think Boeing cares, but I’m sure their unions do. The US rule is a flight attendant for each 50 pax. SWA has built their model around three.


You realize all of the 800's and MAX's have four FA's - yes?
Southeast Of Disorder
 
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Stitch
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Re: Southwest may take 500 MAX 7

Sun May 20, 2018 6:43 pm

texl1649 wrote:
Leeham has been saying for about a year they’d go for mainly max8. I don’t think Boeing cares, but I’m sure their unions do. The US rule is a flight attendant for each 50 pax. SWA has built their model around three.

barney captain wrote:
You realize all of the 800's and MAX's have four FA's - yes?


That's the point of his comment - should WN replace the significant majority of their current 737-700s with 737-8s, WN would need to hire hundreds of additional FAs which he presumes would please AFA (the union).

WN can still increase RASM and decrease CASM thanks to the extra seats the larger MAX-7 can take over the smaller 737-700 while still staying with three FAs (as on the 737-700).
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: Southwest may take 500 MAX 7

Sun May 20, 2018 6:53 pm

Stitch wrote:
texl1649 wrote:
Leeham has been saying for about a year they’d go for mainly max8. I don’t think Boeing cares, but I’m sure their unions do. The US rule is a flight attendant for each 50 pax. SWA has built their model around three.

barney captain wrote:
You realize all of the 800's and MAX's have four FA's - yes?


That's the point of his comment - should WN replace the significant majority of their current 737-700s with 737-8s, WN would need to hire hundreds of additional FAs which he presumes would please AFA (the union).

WN can still increase RASM and decrease CASM thanks to the extra seats the larger MAX-7 can take over the smaller 737-700 while still staying with three FAs (as on the 737-700).


Well, the AFA is gonna get their wish. Based on the current fleet plan, they'd have 542 aircraft with 3 FAs and 471 with 4 FAs.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
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Stitch
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Re: Southwest may take 500 MAX 7

Sun May 20, 2018 7:22 pm

PlanesNTrains wrote:
Well, the AFA is gonna get their wish. Based on the current fleet plan, they'd have 542 aircraft with 3 FAs and 471 with 4 FAs.


:yes:

Looking at the current 737NG fleet (in service and on order), it's 512 737-700 and 220 737-800.

Looking at the current 737 MAX fleet (in service and on order), it's 30 737-7 and 251 737-8.

So that's 31 more MAX-8 than 737-800 and 482 less 737-7 than 737-700. Assuming those extra MAX-8 will be direct replacements for 737-700, that leaves 451 737-700 up for possible replacement. So depending on what models WN chooses for those 451, they could need hundreds more FAs...or not.
 
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Narfish641
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Re: Southwest may take 500 MAX 7

Sun May 20, 2018 7:33 pm

Wouldn't be surprised if they did do that, a handful of the 737-700 frames are in their 20s and some of them are about to hit 20 very soon. I know most aircraft can fly longer than that, but these frames are really showing their age.
Flew on:
SWA 737 738
 
MCIRNO
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Re: Southwest may take 500 MAX 7

Mon May 21, 2018 1:23 am

airzona11 wrote:
MCIRNO wrote:
Well if Boeing buy Embraer, maybe they'll really push the new E2 190 toward WN


There is no reason to believe Southwest is going smaller. They won't go smaller than the 737-7. Smaller doesn't fit their model.


All I'm saying is that the E2 is a relatively poor-selling similar-size aircraft to their old 737-300s that Boeing is inheriting and might be inclined to make WN a great offer. Will it happen? Most likely not but ***many*** people said they would never buy anything bigger than a 737-700 too...
 
ADrum23
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Re: Southwest may take 500 MAX 7

Mon May 21, 2018 1:25 am

Where will the six MAX 7's go once they get them next year?

I do hope they end up getting a fair amount of MAX 7's to replace some of the older 73G's.
 
jplatts
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Re: Southwest may take 500 MAX 7

Mon May 21, 2018 1:40 am

I think that WN will end up with at least 200 737 MAX 7's before it retires its last 737-700 planes.
 
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BMWdrvr75
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Re: Southwest may take 500 MAX 7

Mon May 21, 2018 1:52 am

barney captain wrote:
He's very popular among the employees


There are several major unions that say otherwise.
Very true story Barney Captain.....
We Make Flying Easy......Come fly the Silver Bird........Something Special in the Air......
 
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BMWdrvr75
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Re: Southwest may take 500 MAX 7

Mon May 21, 2018 1:56 am

PlanesNTrains wrote:
Stitch wrote:
texl1649 wrote:
Leeham has been saying for about a year they’d go for mainly max8. I don’t think Boeing cares, but I’m sure their unions do. The US rule is a flight attendant for each 50 pax. SWA has built their model around three.

barney captain wrote:
You realize all of the 800's and MAX's have four FA's - yes?


That's the point of his comment - should WN replace the significant majority of their current 737-700s with 737-8s, WN would need to hire hundreds of additional FAs which he presumes would please AFA (the union).

WN can still increase RASM and decrease CASM thanks to the extra seats the larger MAX-7 can take over the smaller 737-700 while still staying with three FAs (as on the 737-700).


Well, the AFA is gonna get their wish. Based on the current fleet plan, they'd have 542 aircraft with 3 FAs and 471 with 4 FAs.



Unfortunately APFA in not our union, it is TWU 556.
We Make Flying Easy......Come fly the Silver Bird........Something Special in the Air......
 
airzona11
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Re: Southwest may take 500 MAX 7

Mon May 21, 2018 3:33 am

MCIRNO wrote:
airzona11 wrote:
MCIRNO wrote:
Well if Boeing buy Embraer, maybe they'll really push the new E2 190 toward WN


There is no reason to believe Southwest is going smaller. They won't go smaller than the 737-7. Smaller doesn't fit their model.


All I'm saying is that the E2 is a relatively poor-selling similar-size aircraft to their old 737-300s that Boeing is inheriting and might be inclined to make WN a great offer. Will it happen? Most likely not but ***many*** people said they would never buy anything bigger than a 737-700 too...


Maybe. But the 300s are the same size as the 700s. Southwest cost structure isn't low, only way they go smaller than 700s is if they add a regional airline or another entity with lower costs. But until any other plane not named 737 can be operated by 737 pilots, probably not happening. But as Avgeeks, it would be cool to see.
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: Southwest may take 500 MAX 7

Mon May 21, 2018 3:39 am

MCIRNO wrote:
airzona11 wrote:
MCIRNO wrote:
Well if Boeing buy Embraer, maybe they'll really push the new E2 190 toward WN


There is no reason to believe Southwest is going smaller. They won't go smaller than the 737-7. Smaller doesn't fit their model.


All I'm saying is that the E2 is a relatively poor-selling similar-size aircraft to their old 737-300s that Boeing is inheriting and might be inclined to make WN a great offer. Will it happen? Most likely not but ***many*** people said they would never buy anything bigger than a 737-700 too...


I’d love to see a regional plane added (as mainline). However, they could have had that with the 717 and said nope. A bigger 737 is still a 737. An E2 seems like too much for us to hope for.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
7H4
Posts: 28
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Re: Southwest may take 500 MAX 7

Mon May 21, 2018 7:39 am

PlanesNTrains wrote:
MCIRNO wrote:
airzona11 wrote:

There is no reason to believe Southwest is going smaller. They won't go smaller than the 737-7. Smaller doesn't fit their model.


All I'm saying is that the E2 is a relatively poor-selling similar-size aircraft to their old 737-300s that Boeing is inheriting and might be inclined to make WN a great offer. Will it happen? Most likely not but ***many*** people said they would never buy anything bigger than a 737-700 too...


I’d love to see a regional plane added (as mainline). However, they could have had that with the 717 and said nope. A bigger 737 is still a 737. An E2 seems like too much for us to hope for.

Since you brought up the 717 that popped an interesting thought into my head. I believe (correct me if i'm wrong) that the former AT 717s are on lease (NOT sold) to DL. Since WN has confirmed that they are planning interisland Hawaii service a few of those planes could really come in handy. Anyone know how long the agreement with DL is for those?
Any comments/claims/statements are my own and not those of my employer or anyone else.
#RIPHerb
 
USAirKid
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Re: Southwest may take 500 MAX 7

Mon May 21, 2018 9:22 am

7H4 wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
MCIRNO wrote:

All I'm saying is that the E2 is a relatively poor-selling similar-size aircraft to their old 737-300s that Boeing is inheriting and might be inclined to make WN a great offer. Will it happen? Most likely not but ***many*** people said they would never buy anything bigger than a 737-700 too...


I’d love to see a regional plane added (as mainline). However, they could have had that with the 717 and said nope. A bigger 737 is still a 737. An E2 seems like too much for us to hope for.

Since you brought up the 717 that popped an interesting thought into my head. I believe (correct me if i'm wrong) that the former AT 717s are on lease (NOT sold) to DL. Since WN has confirmed that they are planning interisland Hawaii service a few of those planes could really come in handy. Anyone know how long the agreement with DL is for those?


Airtran/Southwest didn't own most of the 717 frames, they were/are owned by Boeing Capital. Southwest subleased them to Delta for the remaining of their lease with Boeing Capital. After the lease from Boeing to Southwest ended for each frame, Delta then began leasing them directly from Boeing. They're never coming back to Southwest.

From Delta's 2014 10-K filing: "Operating Lease Payments, Future Aircraft Leases. Represents estimates of lease payments on the remaining 36 B-717-200 aircraft still to be delivered in 2015 pursuant to our lease agreement with Southwest Airlines and on the subsequent lease agreement with The Boeing Company on our B-717-200 fleet."

From Southwest's 2014 10-K: "The sublease terms for the 76 B717s on operating lease and the two B717s on capital lease coincide with the Company’s remaining lease terms for these aircraft from the original lessor, which range from approximately three to nine years. The leasing of the ten B717s that are owned by the Company is subject to certain conditions, and the lease terms are for seven years, after which Delta will have the option to purchase the aircraft at the then-prevailing market value."

The only way those 717s are coming back to Southwest is if Delta agrees to sell them to Southwest. I highly doubt that'll happen. Given that Delta signed the agreement to lease the 717s in 2012, I expect they'll begin purchasing the ten Southwest owned frames sometime next year.
 
737max8
Posts: 652
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Re: Southwest may take 500 MAX 7

Mon May 21, 2018 1:12 pm

jplatts wrote:
QXAS wrote:
WNs boarding system allows for 180 seats max. 60 A, 60 B and 60 C. The 7M10 would have far more than 180 seats. Probably closer to 215 as an arbitrary number. So would WN add a D boarding group in that case?


WN's 737-800 and MAX 8 planes have 175 seats, and it is already possible for boarding position C60 to be reached before filling all of the seats on flights that are operated on 737-800 or 737 MAX 8 (since A1-A15 are reserved for those traveling on Business Select fares or those who have paid a fee to upgrade their boarding position). Does WN already issue boarding passes with boarding positions C61-C70 once boarding position C60 is already assigned on flights that are operated on 737-800 or 737 MAX 8 planes if there are more than 165 passengers booked on the flight?


Yes, I have been C63 before.
The thoughts and opinions expressed in my comments do not represent that of any airline or affiliate.
Flown on: 717 733 734 735 736 737 738 739 7M8 744 744ER 752 753 762 763 772 773ER 788 789 A220 A319/20/21 A332 A333 A339 A343 A346 A359 A388
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 8527
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Southwest may take 500 MAX 7

Mon May 21, 2018 1:35 pm

jplatts wrote:
QXAS wrote:
WNs boarding system allows for 180 seats max. 60 A, 60 B and 60 C. The 7M10 would have far more than 180 seats. Probably closer to 215 as an arbitrary number. So would WN add a D boarding group in that case?


WN's 737-800 and MAX 8 planes have 175 seats, and it is already possible for boarding position C60 to be reached before filling all of the seats on flights that are operated on 737-800 or 737 MAX 8 (since A1-A15 are reserved for those traveling on Business Select fares or those who have paid a fee to upgrade their boarding position). Does WN already issue boarding passes with boarding positions C61-C70 once boarding position C60 is already assigned on flights that are operated on 737-800 or 737 MAX 8 planes if there are more than 165 passengers booked on the flight?


Do you and QXAS think it's some big problem to change boarding group sizes to 70 at the hundred airports at which WN operates? Come on... it's done in a single weekend.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 8527
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Southwest may take 500 MAX 7

Mon May 21, 2018 1:37 pm

jplatts wrote:
I think that WN will end up with at least 200 737 MAX 7's before it retires its last 737-700 planes.


Possible. 200 Max7s and 600 738s/Max8/Max10s in ten years.
 
32andBelow
Posts: 5037
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

Re: Southwest may take 500 MAX 7

Mon May 21, 2018 2:31 pm

It takes like 6 seconds to fill a new hire FA class at a major airline. More flight attendants wouldn’t be a problem if they increased their aircraft size.
 
Armodeen
Posts: 1269
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 10:17 am

Re: Southwest may take 500 MAX 7

Mon May 21, 2018 4:16 pm

fcogafa wrote:
Some quotes from the Southwest CEO in a Leeham article:

- Southwest looks at all aircraft, including the Bombardier CSeries—but he has no interest in anything but the 737 “as long as I am CEO.”



What, out of the window? Clearly they don't look seriously at anything else when he can make such bold statements.

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