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KLM increasing Bogota to 5 flights / week during winter 2018/19

Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:29 am
by 720B
Plan is to increase from 4 to 5 weekly for the 2018 - 2019 year end season.

As per routes on line

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... f-01mar18/

Amsterdam – Bogota – Cartagena – Amsterdam 05DEC18 – 27FEB19 Increase from 4 to 5 weekly, 787-9 operating

Quite interesting considerintg the service will be increased friom 3 to 4 flights / week starting this month; as per link below, so presumably the route is doing well

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... e-in-ns18/

Re: KLM increasing Bogota to 5 flights / week during winter 2018/19

Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 1:44 pm
by RCS763AV
The change of the stopover from CLO to CTG has really helped the flight. Not only does it save around 1.5h of travel time on the way to Europe, CTG is actually providing many more passengers to the flight than CLO.

Great to see KLM consolidating in Colombia.

Re: KLM increasing Bogota to 5 flights / week during winter 2018/19

Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 2:54 pm
by SJOtoLIR
The upcoming KL AMS-BOG-CTG-AMS 5x weekly is complementing AF CDG-BOG 7x weekly perfectly.
SkyTeam grouping is consolidating its presence at BOG on the way to Europe.
Wouldn’t the 789 fly the BOG-AMS leg as non-stop in the future ?

Regards.

Re: KLM increasing Bogota to 5 flights / week during winter 2018/19

Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 4:03 pm
by mabadia71
SJOtoLIR wrote:
The upcoming KL AMS-BOG-CTG-AMS 5x weekly is complementing AF CDG-BOG 7x weekly perfectly.
SkyTeam grouping is consolidating its presence at BOG on the way to Europe.
Wouldn’t the 789 fly the BOG-AMS leg as non-stop in the future ?

Regards.


I understand that KL's 787 can't meet the climb requirement out of BOG fully loaded to Europe, hence the stopover first in CLO and then in CTG. It's a similar to when the 07 runway in SJO is in use and KL has to stopover in PTY.

Re: KLM increasing Bogota to 5 flights / week during winter 2018/19

Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 4:50 pm
by EddieDude
mabadia71 wrote:
I understand that KL's 787 can't meet the climb requirement out of BOG fully loaded to Europe, hence the stopover

Mountains?

Re: KLM increasing Bogota to 5 flights / week during winter 2018/19

Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:05 pm
by 330lover
EddieDude wrote:
mabadia71 wrote:
I understand that KL's 787 can't meet the climb requirement out of BOG fully loaded to Europe, hence the stopover

Mountains?


High altitude, at above 2500m. Thinner air, less lift... Am I correct?

Re: KLM increasing Bogota to 5 flights / week during winter 2018/19

Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:30 pm
by EddieDude
Yes, but the 789 is designed to be a very long range aircraft. So even if BOG's altitude shaves off several hundreds or over a 1,000 miles of the total sea-level take-off, still-air (nominal) range of a 789, the plane would still have a lot of range to make it to AMS nonstop.

The 789's range is something like 8,700 miles, and AMS-BOG is about 5,500 miles. I very much doubt BOG's altitude alone shaves more than 3,000 miles off of the 789's range. I think other considerations such as runway length (tire acceleration, etc.), and tall mountains around the airport could also be involved.

Anyway, I was just curious.

Re: KLM increasing Bogota to 5 flights / week during winter 2018/19

Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:56 pm
by 330lover
EddieDude wrote:
Yes, but the 789 is designed to be a very long range aircraft. So even if BOG's altitude shaves off several hundreds or over a 1,000 miles of the total sea-level take-off, still-air (nominal) range of a 789, the plane would still have a lot of range to make it to AMS nonstop.

The 789's range is something like 8,700 miles, and AMS-BOG is about 5,500 miles. I very much doubt BOG's altitude alone shaves more than 3,000 miles off of the 789's range. I think other considerations such as runway length (tire acceleration, etc.), and tall mountains around the airport could also be involved.

Anyway, I was just curious.


Right so, never thought of runway length, as I presumed an airport as BOG has a long enough runway...
Not so familiar with surrounding mountains though...

Re: KLM increasing Bogota to 5 flights / week during winter 2018/19

Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 7:20 pm
by FlySSC
mabadia71 wrote:
SJOtoLIR wrote:
The upcoming KL AMS-BOG-CTG-AMS 5x weekly is complementing AF CDG-BOG 7x weekly perfectly.
SkyTeam grouping is consolidating its presence at BOG on the way to Europe.
Wouldn’t the 789 fly the BOG-AMS leg as non-stop in the future ?

Regards.


I understand that KL's 787 can't meet the climb requirement out of BOG fully loaded to Europe, hence the stopover first in CLO and then in CTG. It's a similar to when the 07 runway in SJO is in use and KL has to stopover in PTY.




Next month Air France will switch from a Daily A343 to a Daily B789 on CDG-BOG-CDG. Both legs nonstop.

Re: KLM increasing Bogota to 5 flights / week during winter 2018/19

Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:36 pm
by SJOtoLIR
EddieDude wrote:
Mountains?

I don’t think that the topography has interfered with the technical desition on launching the BOG-CTG-AMS leg, over BOG-AMS as non-stop.

AMS-BOG: 4775nm
CDG-BOG: 4669nm
Source: Great circle mapper.

AMS-BOG is only 3% farther than CDG-BOG, following purely a straight line. That couldn’t represent any issue for a mighty and modern plane like the Boeing 787-9.
As far as I know, the 343 is actually facing weight penalties into the BOG-CDG segment, in spite of their four powerful engines when operating at extreme altitudes like BOG.

Regards.

Re: KLM increasing Bogota to 5 flights / week during winter 2018/19

Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 9:29 pm
by mabadia71
FlySSC wrote:
Next month Air France will switch from a Daily A343 to a Daily B789 on CDG-BOG-CDG. Both legs nonstop.


Yes, but they are also changing the departure time from 8:50pm, to midnight. While that may not seem like a very significant change, the drop in temperature is expect to give that extra "juice" to meet the climb requirement. It's also speculated that AF might be taking a hit on cargo. The difference in temperature between a midnight departure and the 4pm departure of KLM, can be, depending on the time of the year and the weather conditions, as much as 15°C

The problem with BOG is not exactly the altitude of the airport, but that there's a +500 meter tall mountain 10-15 kms of the airport. That added to the high altitude of the airport, plus the relative short runway for an airport at that altitude severely restrict T/O performance on many airplanes. For instance AV doesn't fly the A321 out side of Colombia (with the sort of exception of ADZ) because the plane is severely restricted on missions of 1.5-2 hours.

Re: KLM increasing Bogota to 5 flights / week during winter 2018/19

Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 1:29 am
by RCS763AV
mabadia71 wrote:
FlySSC wrote:
Next month Air France will switch from a Daily A343 to a Daily B789 on CDG-BOG-CDG. Both legs nonstop.


Yes, but they are also changing the departure time from 8:50pm, to midnight. While that may not seem like a very significant change, the drop in temperature is expect to give that extra "juice" to meet the climb requirement. It's also speculated that AF might be taking a hit on cargo. The difference in temperature between a midnight departure and the 4pm departure of KLM, can be, depending on the time of the year and the weather conditions, as much as 15°C

The problem with BOG is not exactly the altitude of the airport, but that there's a +500 meter tall mountain 10-15 kms of the airport. That added to the high altitude of the airport, plus the relative short runway for an airport at that altitude severely restrict T/O performance on many airplanes. For instance AV doesn't fly the A321 out side of Colombia (with the sort of exception of ADZ) because the plane is severely restricted on missions of 1.5-2 hours.


While I agree that BOG has a terrain limitation (as Bogota's eastern hills are located 15 km away), I would not downplay the airport's altitude as a main issue with aircraft performance. Also, BOG's runways are not short by any standard (3800 m on both). Rather, issues with tire speed limit the aircraft's take off roll and thus limit it's ability to take a full load.

KLM's stopover in CTG is thought to help the B789 carry a full load of cargo in its belly (BOG and AMS being the world's two main flower industry centers).