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Aptivaboy
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Boeing says "no" to restarting 767 production

Mon Mar 05, 2018 10:00 pm

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/03/05/boeing- ... r-jet.html

It's a small article without a great deal of information or data, but it seems that Boeing is almost certainly not going to restart 767 production. They haven't absolutely said no, but it certainly appears that the nail is going into the coffin of the passenger 767. Perhaps this is why United was at least looking at the A330-800?

Apologies if this has been posted before. I did a quick forum search and didn't see anything.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing says "no" to restarting 767 production

Mon Mar 05, 2018 10:05 pm

Quick, someone find Schulz and ask him if Airbus will restart the A300 line! :biggrin:

I'd love to kill that one dead before we spend any more time talking about it here on a.net...
Last edited by Revelation on Mon Mar 05, 2018 10:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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flight152
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Re: Boeing says "no" to restarting 767 production

Mon Mar 05, 2018 10:07 pm

Maybe you should add the word “passenger” somewhere since they’re still building the 767.
 
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KarelXWB
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Re: Boeing says "no" to restarting 767 production

Mon Mar 05, 2018 10:14 pm

Boeing did a study on restarting the 767 pax line, and presumably the outcome didn't make economical sense.
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bob75013
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Re: Boeing says "no" to restarting 767 production

Mon Mar 05, 2018 10:19 pm

Well since he second sentence of the article reads "There was speculation the passenger 767 line would be revived to offer airlines a low-price backstop in case a proposed new mid-market plane was delayed," maybe that means that Boeing now knows that the MOM won't be delayed and is telling that to customers
 
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BawliBooch
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Re: Boeing says "no" to restarting 767 production

Mon Mar 05, 2018 10:19 pm

Hmmm.

Now this is concrete evidence that the 797 is "just around the corner". :lol:

Guessing 3/4 threads this week atleast.
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fcogafa
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Re: Boeing says "no" to restarting 767 production

Mon Mar 05, 2018 10:23 pm

From Flightglobal...

Tinseth says today that potential customers for the NMA, which is aimed at replacing ageing 757 and 767 fleets, tell Boeing that they are happy waiting for an entry-into-service as late as 2025.
 
Aptivaboy
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Re: Boeing says "no" to restarting 767 production

Mon Mar 05, 2018 10:26 pm

Maybe you should add the word “passenger” somewhere since they’re still building the 767.


Not to be overly pedantic, but Boeing is building the KC-46 Pegasus, a military cargo/tanker variant. The 767 is clearly a passenger plane, so there's really no need to add the word, "passenger." The plane's 767 nomenclature alone makes that clear, just like KC-46 makes clear what it is.
 
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Re: Boeing says "no" to restarting 767 production

Mon Mar 05, 2018 10:35 pm

Revelation wrote:

I'd love to kill that one dead before we spend any more time talking about it here on a.net...

But we still have 757 threads on here from time to time so what difference would that make? ;)
 
george77300
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Re: Boeing says "no" to restarting 767 production

Mon Mar 05, 2018 10:35 pm

Aptivaboy wrote:
Maybe you should add the word “passenger” somewhere since they’re still building the 767.


Not to be overly pedantic, but Boeing is building the KC-46 Pegasus, a military cargo/tanker variant. The 767 is clearly a passenger plane, so there's really no need to add the word, "passenger." The plane's 767 nomenclature alone makes that clear, just like KC-46 makes clear what it is.


They are still building the B767F for FedEx in large quantities and this is much more similar to the pax configuration than the tanker.
 
flight152
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Re: Boeing says "no" to restarting 767 production

Mon Mar 05, 2018 10:53 pm

Aptivaboy wrote:
Maybe you should add the word “passenger” somewhere since they’re still building the 767.


Not to be overly pedantic, but Boeing is building the KC-46 Pegasus, a military cargo/tanker variant. The 767 is clearly a passenger plane, so there's really no need to add the word, "passenger." The plane's 767 nomenclature alone makes that clear, just like KC-46 makes clear what it is.

And what is the 767F? 767 encompasses both passenger and freighter so saying “Boeing isn’t restarting 767 production” without mentioning passenger version is confusing.
 
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Re: Boeing says "no" to restarting 767 production

Mon Mar 05, 2018 10:57 pm

fcogafa wrote:
From Flightglobal...

Tinseth says today that potential customers for the NMA, which is aimed at replacing ageing 757 and 767 fleets, tell Boeing that they are happy waiting for an entry-into-service as late as 2025.

Can Boeing make it on time and deliver the plane in quantity by 2025?
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SelseyBill
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Re: Boeing says "no" to restarting 767 production

Mon Mar 05, 2018 11:17 pm

c933103 wrote:
fcogafa wrote:
From Flightglobal...

Tinseth says today that potential customers for the NMA, which is aimed at replacing ageing 757 and 767 fleets, tell Boeing that they are happy waiting for an entry-into-service as late as 2025.

Can Boeing make it on time and deliver the plane in quantity by 2025?


I'm sure Boeing can; the big question for me is whether the engine manufacturers can.......
 
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Re: Boeing says "no" to restarting 767 production

Mon Mar 05, 2018 11:31 pm

Aptivaboy wrote:
Maybe you should add the word “passenger” somewhere since they’re still building the 767.


Not to be overly pedantic, but Boeing is building the KC-46 Pegasus, a military cargo/tanker variant. The 767 is clearly a passenger plane, so there's really no need to add the word, "passenger." The plane's 767 nomenclature alone makes that clear, just like KC-46 makes clear what it is.


The 767 is not ONLY a passenger plane, more importantly, it is a cargo aircraft. Boeing would not be "restarting" a line anyways because it never stopped...
 
Geoff1947
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Re: Boeing says "no" to restarting 767 production

Mon Mar 05, 2018 11:39 pm

Aptivaboy wrote:
Maybe you should add the word “passenger” somewhere since they’re still building the 767.


Not to be overly pedantic, but Boeing is building the KC-46 Pegasus, a military cargo/tanker variant. The 767 is clearly a passenger plane, so there's really no need to add the word, "passenger." The plane's 767 nomenclature alone makes that clear, just like KC-46 makes clear what it is.


Boeing’s own designations for the 767s they are building are the 767-2C and the 767-300F.

Geoff
 
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Re: Boeing says "no" to restarting 767 production

Tue Mar 06, 2018 12:41 am

Geoff1947 wrote:
Aptivaboy wrote:
Maybe you should add the word “passenger” somewhere since they’re still building the 767.


Not to be overly pedantic, but Boeing is building the KC-46 Pegasus, a military cargo/tanker variant. The 767 is clearly a passenger plane, so there's really no need to add the word, "passenger." The plane's 767 nomenclature alone makes that clear, just like KC-46 makes clear what it is.


Boeing’s own designations for the 767s they are building are the 767-2C and the 767-300F.

Geoff


Well, obviously Boeing's wrong! :-)
 
CX747
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Re: Boeing says "no" to restarting 767 production

Tue Mar 06, 2018 2:07 am

This could point to the 797 being closer to reality than we think. It at least puts aside the 767 pax option as a reason to delay/hold off the 797.
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a19901213
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Re: Boeing says "no" to restarting 767 production

Tue Mar 06, 2018 2:24 am

Given there are still quite a certain amount of 763 flying around the world that can eventually enter the second hand market, this should allow NA airlines to hold on till 797 rolls out.
 
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CarlosSi
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Re: Boeing says "no" to restarting 767 production

Tue Mar 06, 2018 5:18 am

fcogafa wrote:
From Flightglobal...

Tinseth says today that potential customers for the NMA, which is aimed at replacing ageing 757 and 767 fleets, tell Boeing that they are happy waiting for an entry-into-service as late as 2025.


The question is whether the airlines would be more than happy waiting unril 2025 for a 757/767 replacement.

But, if it makes no economical sense, why bother?
 
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neomax
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Re: Boeing says "no" to restarting 767 production

Tue Mar 06, 2018 6:03 am

I guarantee you Berlin Brandenburg will be finished before Boeing comes out with a 797.
 
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Re: Boeing says "no" to restarting 767 production

Tue Mar 06, 2018 6:03 am

fcogafa wrote:
From Flightglobal...

Tinseth says today that potential customers for the NMA, which is aimed at replacing ageing 757 and 767 fleets, tell Boeing that they are happy waiting for an entry-into-service as late as 2025.

IMO that means the 797 launch will happen any day now.
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4engines4lnghll
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Re: Boeing says "no" to restarting 767 production

Tue Mar 06, 2018 6:08 am

I thought the 787 was the 767 replacement airlines were going for?
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caverunner17
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Re: Boeing says "no" to restarting 767 production

Tue Mar 06, 2018 6:11 am

So, non-news then. Given that a Boeing exec would most likely be fired for saying anything about it before a deal was made public anyways.

As long as it is being offered on RFP's and listed as available, I see no reason why they wouldn't sell the aircraft for the right price. It may never happen, but it's not impossible.
Last edited by caverunner17 on Tue Mar 06, 2018 6:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: Boeing says "no" to restarting 767 production

Tue Mar 06, 2018 6:12 am

I think this must have meant that a specific deal (probably UA) didn't pencil. After all, the passenger 767-300ER still sits on Boeing's price list today. It seems almost certain to me that Boeing would make one or more if a customer paid the right price.

Why didn't the deal pencil? We'll find out someday, but for now it could mean a whole wide range of things. From best to worst for Boeing:

1) New 787s ended up looking more attractive and the potential 767 customer will buy some.
2) The potential 767 customer is confident enough in 797's shape and timing to wait for it.
3) The deal just didn't quite make sense in the short term, with no other implications.
4) A new-build 767 couldn't compete on TCO with the A330neo.
5) The potential 767 customer gave up on both 767 and 797 and will order A321neo.
 
DarthLobster
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Re: Boeing says "no" to restarting 767 production

Tue Mar 06, 2018 6:13 am

fcogafa wrote:
From Flightglobal...

Tinseth says today that potential customers for the NMA, which is aimed at replacing ageing 757 and 767 fleets, tell Boeing that they are happy waiting for an entry-into-service as late as 2025.


Which means Boeing would have to start offering the NMA in a finalized configuration right now at their current development rates, unless of course their "potential customers" look suspiciously like stretched A320s wearing a fake nose and mustache glasses...
Last edited by DarthLobster on Tue Mar 06, 2018 6:15 am, edited 2 times in total.
 
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neomax
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Re: Boeing says "no" to restarting 767 production

Tue Mar 06, 2018 7:05 am

seabosdca wrote:
I think this must have meant that a specific deal (probably UA) didn't pencil. After all, the passenger 767-300ER still sits on Boeing's price list today. It seems almost certain to me that Boeing would make one or more if a customer paid the right price.

Why didn't the deal pencil? We'll find out someday, but for now it could mean a whole wide range of things. From best to worst for Boeing:

1) New 787s ended up looking more attractive and the potential 767 customer will buy some.
2) The potential 767 customer is confident enough in 797's shape and timing to wait for it.
3) The deal just didn't quite make sense in the short term, with no other implications.
4) A new-build 767 couldn't compete on TCO with the A330neo.
5) The potential 767 customer gave up on both 767 and 797 and will order A321neo.


My guess is number 4.
 
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thekorean
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Re: Boeing says "no" to restarting 767 production

Tue Mar 06, 2018 7:11 am

It would be a better idea to bring back 757.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Boeing says "no" to restarting 767 production

Tue Mar 06, 2018 7:17 am

c933103 wrote:
fcogafa wrote:
From Flightglobal...

Tinseth says today that potential customers for the NMA, which is aimed at replacing ageing 757 and 767 fleets, tell Boeing that they are happy waiting for an entry-into-service as late as 2025.

Can Boeing make it on time and deliver the plane in quantity by 2025?


Sounds a bit fast, 7 years from now. I guess the announcement is really around the corner with big launching orders. Will Farnborough this year be the place for this announcement?
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RalXWB
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Re: Boeing says "no" to restarting 767 production

Tue Mar 06, 2018 7:19 am

thekorean wrote:
It would be a better idea to bring back 757.


The most annoying line here on Anet... Why would anybody bring back a 70s technology plane whose production ended 14 years ago???
 
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zkojq
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Re: Boeing says "no" to restarting 767 production

Tue Mar 06, 2018 7:22 am

Only the most hardcore of hardcore-Boeing-fanboys ever believed the rumour that production of the pax 767 was going to be restarted.

CX747 wrote:
This could point to the 797 being closer to reality than we think. It at least puts aside the 767 pax option as a reason to delay/hold off the 797.

I talked to a Boeing engineer this morning who (without giving me any specific details on the actual airplane due to NDAs) said that the 797 was a lot further into its development than what most outsiders realise. I guess Boeing is intending to have a very short window between then time that the aircraft is offered for sale (and made public) and its certification.

CarlosSi wrote:
The question is whether the airlines would be more than happy waiting unril 2025 for a 757/767 replacement.

But, if it makes no economical sense, why bother?

Or they could wait much shorter and get an A321neo. :)
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thekorean
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Re: Boeing says "no" to restarting 767 production

Tue Mar 06, 2018 7:26 am

RalXWB wrote:
thekorean wrote:
It would be a better idea to bring back 757.


The most annoying line here on Anet... Why would anybody bring back a 70s technology plane whose production ended 14 years ago???

Which is my point. Why bring back 767 when they already produce superior modern aircraft?
 
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Re: Boeing says "no" to restarting 767 production

Tue Mar 06, 2018 7:48 am

neomax wrote:
I guarantee you Berlin Brandenburg will be finished before Boeing comes out with a 797.


That's just plain crazy talk.


Okay, a question for more knowledgeable people....

The plane is still in production in various non pax form, if an airline wanted to order 20 of them, how hard would it be to find the interior fittings ?
 
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Re: Boeing says "no" to restarting 767 production

Tue Mar 06, 2018 7:58 am

I believe the 797 is ready from concept, but the deal with engine makers isn't ready yet.

Flyglobal
 
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Re: Boeing says "no" to restarting 767 production

Tue Mar 06, 2018 8:03 am

They build new tankers as we speak. So no need to "restart" 767 production. The line is up and running. And the base airframe is the commercial 767.
Having said that I don't see a big market demand for new passenger variants.
 
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Re: Boeing says "no" to restarting 767 production

Tue Mar 06, 2018 8:33 am

jetwet1 wrote:
neomax wrote:
I guarantee you Berlin Brandenburg will be finished before Boeing comes out with a 797.


That's just plain crazy talk.


Okay, a question for more knowledgeable people....

The plane is still in production in various non pax form, if an airline wanted to order 20 of them, how hard would it be to find the interior fittings ?


You think so? Just wait, 2025 will be here and the 797 will remain a plane that has progressed no further than three press conferences and a flashy rendering. All joking aside, chances are that BER probably will be open before Boeing actually has a flying 797.

The interior fitting of the 767 depends mainly on what tooling Boeing kept for the pax variant. If they pulled a 757 style move and ditched all retroactive support for the aircraft, then that will prove to be a bit difficult.
 
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Jouhou
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Re: Boeing says "no" to restarting 767 production

Tue Mar 06, 2018 8:40 am

Why order new passenger 767s now? 787 is at a point of maturity where I doubt the price premium will last too much longer.
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Strato2
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Re: Boeing says "no" to restarting 767 production

Tue Mar 06, 2018 8:42 am

Revelation wrote:
Quick, someone find Schulz and ask him if Airbus will restart the A300 line! :biggrin:

I'd love to kill that one dead before we spend any more time talking about it here on a.net...


Totally different circumstances as the A300 is not produced in any shape or form and presumably the tooling has been dismantled. If this thread was about the 757 you'd have a point.
 
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Re: Boeing says "no" to restarting 767 production

Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:01 am

thekorean wrote:
It would be a better idea to bring back 757.


Who would buy a plane that burns 25% more fuel per seat than the A321neo. At that point it's better to take the lower cost of the A321n and loose a few customers than get those additional seats at a loss 25% loss.
 
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Re: Boeing says "no" to restarting 767 production

Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:04 am

jetwet1 wrote:
neomax wrote:
I guarantee you Berlin Brandenburg will be finished before Boeing comes out with a 797.


That's just plain crazy talk.


Okay, a question for more knowledgeable people....

The plane is still in production in various non pax form, if an airline wanted to order 20 of them, how hard would it be to find the interior fittings ?


the 897 will come out before brandenburg is completed. At this point it would be cheaper to tear down Brandenburg and start over.
 
parapente
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Re: Boeing says "no" to restarting 767 production

Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:21 am

Gotta be Farnbrough.Engines? Could be a Cfm only deal in which case they too could be further along than we know.In which case the timing is perfectly possible.It appears from recent statements that they are not over enamoured with geared engines.Price/EIS is key here.
 
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Re: Boeing says "no" to restarting 767 production

Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:32 am

Jouhou wrote:
Why order new passenger 767s now? 787 is at a point of maturity where I doubt the price premium will last too much longer.

Why new now? Maybe because the 76s currently in service are rather old and extremely maintance delay prone. As is, the choice to just put up with the old ones until the 79 or whatever is available or go with an existing type that isn’t an exact match size/range wise for the 76.
Last edited by iahcsr on Tue Mar 06, 2018 10:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Boeing says "no" to restarting 767 production

Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:36 am

TWA772LR wrote:
IMO that means the 797 launch will happen any day now.


A meaningless phrase unless you define exactly what you mean by 'any day now'. Do you mean in the next two weeks? If they launch in December will you say "I told you!" :spin:
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Re: Boeing says "no" to restarting 767 production

Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:45 am

neomax wrote:
I guarantee you Berlin Brandenburg will be finished before Boeing comes out with a 797.


I am waiting for someone to find some endangered fauna or flora "thingy" that has settled in those laying fallow areas.
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Re: Boeing says "no" to restarting 767 production

Tue Mar 06, 2018 10:07 am

iahcsr wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
Why order new passenger 767s now? 787 is at a point of maturity where I doubt the price premium will last too much longer.

Why new now? Maybe because the 76s currently in service are rather old and extremely maintance delay prone. As is the choice is to just put up with the old ones until the 79 or whatever is available or go with an existing type that isn’t an exact match size/range wise for the 76.


Wouldn't the 787-8 work well if it wasn't for the price? Even if it has more seats, it has lower fuel costs. Perhaps I'm over estimating the increase in efficiency vs aircraft size difference. It's the price of the aircraft itself that makes the 767 look like a good option. That was my point. There's enough existing 787s out there now and a rising production rate where I can see prices looking more competitive in coming years.
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Re: Boeing says "no" to restarting 767 production

Tue Mar 06, 2018 10:41 am

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... t-imminent

Just to curb the 797 tomorrow enthusiasm a little bit. Udvar-Házy thinks the launch of the 797 is not imminent. He says the discussions have been running for more than 5 years now.

I personally think, that a big part of the replacement cycle of the 767-300 and 767-300Er will have happened, before the EIS of the 797.
 
iahcsr
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Re: Boeing says "no" to restarting 767 production

Tue Mar 06, 2018 10:41 am

Jouhou wrote:
iahcsr wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
Why order new passenger 767s now? 787 is at a point of maturity where I doubt the price premium will last too much longer.

Why new now? Maybe because the 76s currently in service are rather old and extremely maintance delay prone. As is the choice is to just put up with the old ones until the 79 or whatever is available or go with an existing type that isn’t an exact match size/range wise for the 76.


Wouldn't the 787-8 work well if it wasn't for the price? Even if it has more seats, it has lower fuel costs. Perhaps I'm over estimating the increase in efficiency vs aircraft size difference. It's the price of the aircraft itself that makes the 767 look like a good option. That was my point. There's enough existing 787s out there now and a rising production rate where I can see prices looking more competitive in coming years.

Sizewise the 788 is a good match yes, but other than price it also has a lot more range than is needed for 767 missions. This unneeded range means the 787 is heaver ... meaning more fuel burn to carry that weight. I don’t know if the increased fuel efficiency would balance the extra weight vs the 767 or not. It does occur to me that if B is saying nix to new pax 76s it is possible they might offer reduced price on 788s instead to do the hold over to the 797 EIS? The problem would obviously be what to do with them once the 79s come online.
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CX747
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Re: Boeing says "no" to restarting 767 production

Tue Mar 06, 2018 12:54 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/air-transport/2018-02-26/alc-reckons-boeing-nma-launch-isnt-imminent

Just to curb the 797 tomorrow enthusiasm a little bit. Udvar-Házy thinks the launch of the 797 is not imminent. He says the discussions have been running for more than 5 years now.

I personally think, that a big part of the replacement cycle of the 767-300 and 767-300Er will have happened, before the EIS of the 797.



Article states he doesn't see the launch in the next couple of months. If we are taking a "couple" as two, it could be launched in June of this year. I personally believe it will be launched sometime in the next 18 months.
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na
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Re: Boeing says "no" to restarting 767 production

Tue Mar 06, 2018 1:31 pm

So when will the last civilian 767F be built? For Fedex, I assume.

The 767 is a real oldie, with no real enhancements since the 90s. Its an oddity that the USAF replaces its KC-135 tankers, which at the time of building were the most modern airplanes on the planet, are being replaced with what is the oldest large aircraft type around, with technology from the early 1980s.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Boeing says "no" to restarting 767 production

Tue Mar 06, 2018 1:32 pm

Again, quite a bit of the 767-300ER fleet is older than 25 years, a big part, LN700 and lower is 20 years and older. The replacement cycle is happening now, not in 7 or 10 years time. So a big part of the 767-300ER fleet will be replaced by 737-9/10, A321, 787 and A330, before the possible EIS of the 797.
 
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Re: Boeing says "no" to restarting 767 production

Tue Mar 06, 2018 5:03 pm

Aptivaboy wrote:
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/03/05/boeing-executive-rules-out-reviving-767-passenger-jet.html

It's a small article without a great deal of information or data, but it seems that Boeing is almost certainly not going to restart 767 production. They haven't absolutely said no, but it certainly appears that the nail is going into the coffin of the passenger 767. Perhaps this is why United was at least looking at the A330-800?
.


You might have that switched around . . . :
Perhaps UA is now looking at A330neo because they could not make the new 767 business case work . . .
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