Airliners.net

As reported in 2017, IndiGo may order widebody aircraft at some point. According to Bloomberg, the A330neo may be the RFP front runner.

IndiGo, India’s biggest airline, plans to order as many as 50 Airbus SE A330 wide-body jets as it seeks to expand beyond short-haul flights, people with knowledge of the matter said.

The carrier aims to take the upgraded A330neo version of the plane, according the people, who asked not to be named as the discussions aren’t public. The deal would be worth $13 billion at list prices for the smaller of two variants, though some of the aircraft are likely to options to be confirmed later.

Quick delivery times and the ease of retraining A320 pilots for the jet were a factor in the decision, one person said.

Article
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ide-bodies

If this deal comes to fruition, it would be one of Eric Schulz's first successes.

Of course, we have no clue how well informed the famous "people familiar with the matter" are. They can be wrong, or last minute decisions can change the outcome.

Does the article suggest that some -800s may be part of the deal?

The deal would be worth $13 billion at list prices for the smaller of two variants, though some of the aircraft are likely to options to be confirmed later.

This topic was just deleted 10 minutes ago ?

Like I said in my reply to your comments, this is a very big IF, there are a number of airlines expanding very rapidly in India. You also have the announcement of Qatar to setup a new carrier, and Air Asia India all set for rapid expansion.

Maybe all the airlines are seeing Air India is going to fail and they want to plug the gaps, the winner will be the airline with the capacity ready to fill the void.

zeke wrote:

This topic was just deleted 10 minutes ago ?

Like I said in my reply to your comments, this is a very big IF, there are a number of airlines expanding very rapidly in India. You also have the announcement of Qatar to setup a new carrier, and Air Asia India all set for rapid expansion.

Maybe all the airlines are seeing Air India is going to fail and they want to plug the gaps, the winner will be the airline with the capacity ready to fill the void.

Not trying to change the subject but would the Indian government let that happen? But if it did I would expect a Black Friday like order euphoria for widebodies for airlines in the region.

Just curious: why my post on the same subject one hour ago was deleted?

Why delete one thread only to allow another thread on say subject be allowed?

The Indian government wants to sell their AI holdings, but whoever buys AI will get all their long haul aircraft as well. They are not planning on liquidating the airline and selling its assets piece wise to the highest bidders worldwide.

william wrote:

Not trying to change the subject but would the Indian government let that happen? But if it did I would expect a Black Friday like order euphoria for widebodies for airlines in the region.

The reason I mentioned it is the government wants to sell its holdings, and indigo has expressed interest in that. It would follow this order could be used as a mechanism to enable that.

http://money.cnn.com/2017/06/29/news/in ... index.html

the a330 neo is not dead "as some have speculated"

zeke wrote:

william wrote:

Not trying to change the subject but would the Indian government let that happen? But if it did I would expect a Black Friday like order euphoria for widebodies for airlines in the region.

The reason I mentioned it is the government wants to sell its holdings, and indigo has expressed interest in that. It would follow this order could be used as a mechanism to enable that.

http://money.cnn.com/2017/06/29/news/in ... index.html

Ooh, selling Air India or letting it die could get ugly but in the end India aviation market will be better for it.

georgiabill wrote:

Why delete one thread only to allow another thread on say subject be allowed? I think some of the moderators parents should cut the power to the basement and have them get a job.

Opps, get ready to

Olddog wrote:

Just curious: why my post on the same subject one hour ago was deleted?

Did your post include comments of your own? If it was just a link and quote, then strictly speaking, that's against the forum rules and often leads to a thread being deleted.

KarelXWB wrote:

Does the article suggest that some -800s may be part of the deal?

The deal would be worth $13 billion at list prices for the smaller of two variants, though some of the aircraft are likely to options to be confirmed later.

That’s how I was reading it as well. Not sure if that’s just the model the author used or it’s the model being considered.

scbriml wrote:

Olddog wrote:

Just curious: why my post on the same subject one hour ago was deleted?

Did your post include comments of your own? If it was just a link and quote, then strictly speaking, that's against the forum rules and often leads to a thread being deleted.

Maybe the forum needed another thread with "mulls" in the title?

HIA350 wrote:

the a330 neo is not dead "as some have speculated"

The 330 neo was never dead. The 338 neo likely is.

The issue is people read about HA cancelling and applied that logic to the whole type.

As much as I'd love to see more neo orders, I'm really sceptical. With QR set to launch an Indian airline, and Vistara also wanting to go long-haul, and AI still here, I'm not sure how much room there is.

Revelation wrote:

scbriml wrote:

Olddog wrote:

Just curious: why my post on the same subject one hour ago was deleted?

Did your post include comments of your own? If it was just a link and quote, then strictly speaking, that's against the forum rules and often leads to a thread being deleted.

Maybe the forum needed another thread with "mulls" in the title?

I like it

To me the article states that Indigo is contemplating buying the A330-800.

Quote: The carrier aims to take the upgraded A330neo version of the plane, according the people, who asked not to be named as the discussions aren’t public. The deal would be worth $13 billion at list prices for the smaller of two variants, though some of the aircraft are likely to options to be confirmed later.

smaller variant of the A330neo should denote the -800 version.

mjoelnir wrote:

To me the article states that Indigo is contemplating buying the A330-800.

Quote: The carrier aims to take the upgraded A330neo version of the plane, according the people, who asked not to be named as the discussions aren’t public. The deal would be worth $13 billion at list prices for the smaller of two variants, though some of the aircraft are likely to options to be confirmed later.

smaller variant of the A330neo should denote the -800 version.

That would be a surprise indeed. I looked at GCM and east Australia is a stretch with the A339. Not that they might fly there, but to me a LCC long hole market Europe-India-Australia always made sense (backpackers and sorts). If you then ad Indians living there, as well...

Could a A338 do DEL-east coast US ? JFK is 6359 nm.

mat66 wrote:

mjoelnir wrote:

To me the article states that Indigo is contemplating buying the A330-800.

Quote: The carrier aims to take the upgraded A330neo version of the plane, according the people, who asked not to be named as the discussions aren’t public. The deal would be worth $13 billion at list prices for the smaller of two variants, though some of the aircraft are likely to options to be confirmed later.

smaller variant of the A330neo should denote the -800 version.

That would be a surprise indeed. I looked at GCM and east Australia is a stretch with the A339. Not that they might fly there, but to me a LCC long hole market Europe-India-Australia always made sense (backpackers and sorts). If you then ad Indians living there, as well...

Could a A338 do DEL-east coast US ? JFK is 6359 nm.

JFK should be no issues on the 338 right, the 251t variant in particular has huge book range.

Armodeen wrote:

mat66 wrote:

mjoelnir wrote:

To me the article states that Indigo is contemplating buying the A330-800.

Quote: The carrier aims to take the upgraded A330neo version of the plane, according the people, who asked not to be named as the discussions aren’t public. The deal would be worth $13 billion at list prices for the smaller of two variants, though some of the aircraft are likely to options to be confirmed later.

smaller variant of the A330neo should denote the -800 version.

That would be a surprise indeed. I looked at GCM and east Australia is a stretch with the A339. Not that they might fly there, but to me a LCC long hole market Europe-India-Australia always made sense (backpackers and sorts). If you then ad Indians living there, as well...

Could a A338 do DEL-east coast US ? JFK is 6359 nm.

JFK should be no issues on the 338 right, the 251t variant in particular has huge book range.

I always forget the 251t variant. Thanks.

Antarius wrote:

HIA350 wrote:

the a330 neo is not dead "as some have speculated"

The 330 neo was never dead. The 338 neo likely is.

The issue is people read about HA cancelling and applied that logic to the whole type.

I know...I’ve never understood that logic, the first production A339 is painted!

Well if this order comes to fruition ...its a HUGE win for Airbus, and a surefire way of establishing the 338/9 NEO as a formidable contender, because of availability ... I wonder how long the boom in sales end... the backlog is crazy ...

Best regards
TRB

I can see the orders for the A330neo going up once it starts regular service as the original A330 did once it started showing how good it was.

50 A330 for an airline whose operation is relative all short haul now is a bit too much ain't it? Feeling de javu (KF, the old days of Jet Airways), I hope they don't get canned down by India government.

juliuswong wrote:

50 A330 for an airline whose operation is relative all short haul now is a bit too much ain't it? Feeling de javu (KF, the old days of Jet Airways), I hope they don't get canned down by India government.

500 + A320's was a bit much for Indigo 7 years ago

If there is one airline you would bet on pulling this off- it is Indigo

juliuswong wrote:

50 A330 for an airline whose operation is relative all short haul now is a bit too much ain't it? Feeling de javu (KF, the old days of Jet Airways), I hope they don't get canned down by India government.

I suspect that figure would include options as well.

I wouldn't read that as implying they'd take any -800 aircraft, though it hasn't explicitly been ruled out. As it's unclear which model they're going to take, I'd assume they're just picking the smaller variant to not overestimate the value of the deal.

Kashmon wrote:

juliuswong wrote:

50 A330 for an airline whose operation is relative all short haul now is a bit too much ain't it? Feeling de javu (KF, the old days of Jet Airways), I hope they don't get canned down by India government.

500 + A320's was a bit much for Indigo 7 years ago

If there is one airline you would bet on pulling this off- it is Indigo

The widebody market is so much more difficult than narrowbody markets, ordering 50 A330s is huge and introduces more risks than a few hundred A320s.

This shows the top 15 countries by total airliner passengers for 2017.



The passengers per capita column gives you a rough idea of how developed airline passenger service is in those countries. As you can see India is woefully behind the rest of the BRICS, so as the wealth grows in India, which it is, expect Indian airlines to continue buying planes by the ton. India also lacks the rail infrastructure that China does and it is very unlikely that they will add anything approaching what China did, so I'd argue what they have currently on order is not enough.

OT: Also, with that stat, you can see the impact on air service for countries with really advanced rail service like Japan, France and Germany.

Indigo will make it work! They know the market well, and they have been planning this for couple of years (Air India sale is stalling them)

Qatar, Air Asia etc etc, don't have slots in DEL or BOM and that's where the heart of the market is, and if they do get Air India (which I believe they will aggressively go for) they will have immense amount of slots not just in India but in major airports worldwide.

However I am sure about A330neo, their usual strategy of sale and leaseback will not work, it more likely they will go for B787-8 and-9 (especially if they win Air India and get 27 of -8)

See all these are just 2 month puff pieces aimed for publicity. This is the third thread we are having about Indigo's long haul ambitions and wide body orders.If they are being too overconfident about the long haul market let me tell you they could not even make routes like BOM SIN and DEL SIN work. You need a lower cost base for what Indigo is planning. Unfortunately Indigo does not have a cost base as low as scoot air or air asia . Moreover flying from India to Europe or Australia is not that expensive. So if there is a difference of just $150 between an FSC and an LCC,for flying long haul, then people will at one point choose for service over fares.
Even southwest does not fly long haul. The major reason for Indigo's success has been consistent focus in the domestic market and they know it well. Going long haul will be against their original business model .
We have had news about vistara planning to order 50 777s but that did not come into fruition. I will believe all these" indigo" news once the first a330neo gets delivered.
believe it when you see it !!!!!
And as an Indian I don't want our national airline to be taken over by an LCC however be its reputation.

While obviously this is still a deal in progress, and we can only speculate, the tone of the article suggests to me that 6E has already chosen the A330neo, but is negotiating. I hope it happens, but I think 50 is the headline, 10-20 is more sensible.

sibibom wrote:

Indigo will make it work! They know the market well, and they have been planning this for couple of years (Air India sale is stalling them)

Qatar, Air Asia etc etc, don't have slots in DEL or BOM and that's where the heart of the market is, and if they do get Air India (which I believe they will aggressively go for) they will have immense amount of slots not just in India but in major airports worldwide.

However I am sure about A330neo, their usual strategy of sale and leaseback will not work, it more likely they will go for B787-8 and-9 (especially if they win Air India and get 27 of -8)

Seems that they've not chosen the 787, unless something changes in the future:

'Quick delivery times and the ease of retraining A320 pilots for the jet were a factor in the decision, one person said.'

MrHMSH wrote:

While obviously this is still a deal in progress, and we can only speculate, the tone of the article suggests to me that 6E has already chosen the A330neo, but is negotiating. I hope it happens, but I think 50 is the headline, 10-20 is more sensible.

sibibom wrote:

Indigo will make it work! They know the market well, and they have been planning this for couple of years (Air India sale is stalling them)

Qatar, Air Asia etc etc, don't have slots in DEL or BOM and that's where the heart of the market is, and if they do get Air India (which I believe they will aggressively go for) they will have immense amount of slots not just in India but in major airports worldwide.

However I am sure about A330neo, their usual strategy of sale and leaseback will not work, it more likely they will go for B787-8 and-9 (especially if they win Air India and get 27 of -8)

Seems that they've not chosen the 787, unless something changes in the future:

'Quick delivery times and the ease of retraining A320 pilots for the jet were a factor in the decision, one person said.'

That would change if they get Air India's assets, pilots and staff...

YouGeeElWhy wrote:

This shows the top 15 countries by total airliner passengers for 2017.



The passengers per capita column gives you a rough idea of how developed airline passenger service is in those countries. As you can see India is woefully behind the rest of the BRICS, so as the wealth grows in India, which it is, expect Indian airlines to continue buying planes by the ton. India also lacks the rail infrastructure that China does and it is very unlikely that they will add anything approaching what China did, so I'd argue what they have currently on order is not enough.

OT: Also, with that stat, you can see the impact on air service for countries with really advanced rail service like Japan, France and Germany.

YouGeeElWhy ... thanks for these stats.
Not related to anything, but do you also happen to have stats for Norway?

KarelXWB wrote:

Does the article suggest that some -800s may be part of the deal?

The allready cited french paper from La Tribune https://www.latribune.fr/entreprises-fi ... 71235.html
says : " ...la compagnie ... entend commander, d'ici à juin, jusqu'à 50 A330-800, ..."
The Company (Indigo) plans to order up to 50 A350-800.

It's still a long way to a firm order, but the choice of the plane and the model seem allmost done.
Wait end see !

PhilDur wrote:

KarelXWB wrote:

Does the article suggest that some -800s may be part of the deal?

The allready cited french paper from La Tribune https://www.latribune.fr/entreprises-fi ... 71235.html
says : " ...la compagnie ... entend commander, d'ici à juin, jusqu'à 50 A330-800, ..."
The Company (Indigo) plans to order up to 50 A350-800.

It's still a long way to a firm order, but the choice of the plane and the model seem allmost done.
Wait end see !

The -800 could made really good sense. Airbus will want orders, as they have 0 for the model. It has superb range for longer routes out of India and could be far more economical than a 787 if they 9-abreast in the A338. Quick delivery slots and fleet commonality could seal a very exciting deal.

I am usually quite optimistic about the growth of aviation in India and am a great fan of what IndiGo has done for aviation in India, but I am not quite convinced about the viability operating such a large widebody LCC fleet. Back in 2011 when 6E began their international operations, their first set of routes included non stops to SIN from DEL and BOM made possible by specially configured aircraft with additional fuel tanks. Aditya Ghosh proclaimed that in no time there would me multiple non stops on these routes. But both the routes were quite short lived and 6E currently operates to SIN only from MAA and BLR. I wonder how many could possibly be flown from DEL?

unrave wrote:

I am usually quite optimistic about the growth of aviation in India and am a great fan of what IndiGo has done for aviation in India, but I am not quite convinced about the viability operating such a large widebody LCC fleet. Back in 2011 when 6E began their international operations, their first set of routes included non stops to SIN from DEL and BOM made possible by specially configured aircraft with additional fuel tanks. Aditya Ghosh proclaimed that in no time there would me multiple non stops on these routes. But both the routes were quite short lived and 6E currently operates to SIN only from MAA and BLR. I wonder how many could possibly be flown from DEL?

Exactly!!!! I have used the same logic. Even if they fly to EU from DEL, will they have those domestic banks and int'l banks like AI? I even doubt how far will they be able to reduce fares. Indigo must better stay with short haul only. Connecting in Delhi for their passengers will be more difficult as they will operate from different terminals.
Well I would have liked more had indigo reached more smaller cities. That is what Indian Aviation needs. Having 10 daily frequencies between metro cities is not that great for our aviation which has so many underserved airports.

unrave wrote:

I am usually quite optimistic about the growth of aviation in India and am a great fan of what IndiGo has done for aviation in India, but I am not quite convinced about the viability operating such a large widebody LCC fleet. Back in 2011 when 6E began their international operations, their first set of routes included non stops to SIN from DEL and BOM made possible by specially configured aircraft with additional fuel tanks. Aditya Ghosh proclaimed that in no time there would me multiple non stops on these routes. But both the routes were quite short lived and 6E currently operates to SIN only from MAA and BLR. I wonder how many could possibly be flown from DEL?

4 points I would like to bring into the discussion:

1. India's aviation market is twice or thrice as large as that in 2011.
2. IndiGo has a lot more cash, compared to 2011 and can sustain some initial loss for a longer time, when a new route is launched. That's the time you take to develop any route.
3. A 7 per week route to EU would require active service by 2 A330s, and I still don't expect 6E to get more than 10 wide-bodies per year, which means only about 4 daily non stops to EU (or maybe even less, considering the maintenance downtime etc etc)
4. IndiGo has a much larger domestic feed than ever before.


They could start off with LHR or CDG, then look eastwards towards HND or PEK, and if its in A330's range, then Australia alone can sustain daily non-stops to SYD/MEL.

LHR ?? I thought they will use STN in UK and ORL in paris. I hope they are not planning to use the bigger airports.

anshabhi wrote:

unrave wrote:

I am usually quite optimistic about the growth of aviation in India and am a great fan of what IndiGo has done for aviation in India, but I am not quite convinced about the viability operating such a large widebody LCC fleet. Back in 2011 when 6E began their international operations, their first set of routes included non stops to SIN from DEL and BOM made possible by specially configured aircraft with additional fuel tanks. Aditya Ghosh proclaimed that in no time there would me multiple non stops on these routes. But both the routes were quite short lived and 6E currently operates to SIN only from MAA and BLR. I wonder how many could possibly be flown from DEL?

4 points I would like to bring into the discussion:

1. India's aviation market is twice or thrice as large as that in 2011.
2. IndiGo has a lot more cash, compared to 2011 and can sustain some initial loss for a longer time, when a new route is launched. That's the time you take to develop any route.
3. A 7 per week route to EU would require active service by 2 A330s, and I still don't expect 6E to get more than 10 wide-bodies per year, which means only about 4 daily non stops to EU (or maybe even less, considering the maintenance downtime etc etc)
4. IndiGo has a much larger domestic feed than ever before.


They could start off with LHR or CDG, then look eastwards towards HND or PEK, and if its in A330's range, then Australia alone can sustain daily non-stops to SYD/MEL.

From DEL I think 1 A330 will be able to get to EU 7 times a week. If the flight time goes beyond 10 hours then another A330 will be required.

unrave wrote:

I am usually quite optimistic about the growth of aviation in India and am a great fan of what IndiGo has done for aviation in India, but I am not quite convinced about the viability operating such a large widebody LCC fleet.

From the outside, IndiGo seems like a very well run airline.

A couple of things that shouldn't be forgotten (assuming such an order materialises):
It's very unlikely that all 50 would be firm from day one - let's say 20-25 firm plus options.
Those 20-25 firm orders will take several years to be delivered.

Five to six per year over four or five years doesn't seem at all outrageous to me for a well run airline.

binayak wrote:

LHR ?? I thought they will use STN in UK and ORL in paris. I hope they are not planning to use the bigger airports.

They will go wherever they get the slots for the cheapest price!

Yes 1 A330 would be sufficient for upto 9 hours, but they will have to figure out something for the maintenance time.

binayak wrote:

unrave wrote:

I am usually quite optimistic about the growth of aviation in India and am a great fan of what IndiGo has done for aviation in India, but I am not quite convinced about the viability operating such a large widebody LCC fleet. Back in 2011 when 6E began their international operations, their first set of routes included non stops to SIN from DEL and BOM made possible by specially configured aircraft with additional fuel tanks. Aditya Ghosh proclaimed that in no time there would me multiple non stops on these routes. But both the routes were quite short lived and 6E currently operates to SIN only from MAA and BLR. I wonder how many could possibly be flown from DEL?

Exactly!!!! I have used the same logic. Even if they fly to EU from DEL, will they have those domestic banks and int'l banks like AI? I even doubt how far will they be able to reduce fares. Indigo must better stay with short haul only. Connecting in Delhi for their passengers will be more difficult as they will operate from different terminals.
Well I would have liked more had indigo reached more smaller cities. That is what Indian Aviation needs. Having 10 daily frequencies between metro cities is not that great for our aviation which has so many underserved airports.

Daily frequencies between metros is there because of demand, and world over, its the same between major metros. Whether between JFK-LHR, NYC-LAX/SFO, SIN-HKG etc. And they are the highest yield ones. And the flights between metros are the biggest money making ones. If they don't make money, they would have been cut long time back.

Its not like Indigo is neglecting smaller cities. Thats why they have ordered around 50 ATR-72s. Problem is again that the lack of space at major airports. BOM just announced that they can't accomodate any more smaller flights. DEL will be the same till the new Noida airport comes online.

Indigo operating from multiple terminals is an issue. But its not for ever, only for 3-4 years. Also, many other airlines have faced similar issue in other airports worldwide. Have seem similar thing in LHR and CDG when connecting there. As long as the incoming bank is scheduled properly with good buffer, no reason why it won't work.

It depends on what cities they connect internationally. Since they dont have alliance with anyone, they will primarily have to depend on O&D traffic. Which means they will operate only from major metros like BOM/DEL for EU traffic and maybe MAA/BLR/CCU/HYD also for SE asian traffic.

Still, I am all for encouraging Indian carriers to grow. Who know, they may become the next Air Asia etc. AI lost the plot long time back, and 9W for whatever reason didn't consolidate their position even when everything was going right for them. Today, there is no other good international carrier in India. If 6E succeeds, all the more power to them. I hope they build on their domestic strength and become a dominant international carrier from India.

blrsea wrote:

.

I would like to comment on your points
I am not against in this multiple daily frequencies between metros. But the city pairs you mentioned have LCCs and FSCs running side by side.and both benefiting . However in India we have a nasty competition between the 2 types of airlines and looks like Indigo is eating most of the cake. To improve our aviation , we want more flights but not stiff competition amongst our own carriers. I didn't know about the ATRs. Thanks for correcting me there.
It is unlikely that Indigo will operate from one terminal. It can be possible only if DIAL , after renovating T1 , keeps it for both int'l and domestic operations of the LCCs. looking at the crowd of LCCs in DEL, the operator can't ask all of them to have int'l ops from T3. So its up to the airport operator.
Another problem in India is that you can't use the southern cities as hubs for flights to australia , south east asia because maximum O&D is from DEL and BOM.

binayak wrote:

I would like to comment on your points
I am not against in this multiple daily frequencies between metros. But the city pairs you mentioned have LCCs and FSCs running side by side.and both benefiting . However in India we have a nasty competition between the 2 types of airlines and looks like Indigo is eating most of the cake. To improve our aviation , we want more flights but not stiff competition amongst our own carriers.

Why would you not want more competition? Each business is in it for the money, so yeah let there be competition. And may the best airline win. On the one hand ppl are complaining about AI's hegemony and GoI's protectionism and here you are saying we want more flights but not competition. How's that going to work?

binayak wrote:

It is unlikely that Indigo will operate from one terminal. It can be possible only if DIAL , after renovating T1 , keeps it for both int'l and domestic operations of the LCCs. looking at the crowd of LCCs in DEL, the operator can't ask all of them to have int'l ops from T3. So its up to the airport operator.

As pointed out by @blrsea, the terminals issue is a non-issue. If 6E is serious about the international expansion, they will find a solution. I have arrived and connected from DL to AF at CDG in different terminals. We were just bussed from one to another and all it needed was enough connection time between flights. Even at ORD AA which operates out of T3 has some sort of a shuttle to connect to BA which leaves from T5. If they are bringing enough business to the airport, the airport operator and the airline will work out an arrangement.

Some people above are worried about IndiGo coping with the growing competition. All I can say is that if they can replicate in long-haul what they've done in short-haul it's the others who should be worried. I left India after two years. Had I stayed I would have insisted on IndiGo every time I flew. Very impressive airline.

Meanwhile Macron arrived in India...

And https://www.investing.com/news/stock-market-news/france-signs-deals-worth-16-billion-in-india-to-deepen-defense-security-ties-1335457

12 billions deal between Spicejet and Safran.