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chiad
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Turkish Airlines MoU for 25 A350 and 25 787

Fri Mar 09, 2018 6:52 pm

Flight Global reports Turkish Airlines commits to 25 A350-900s (+5 options) and 25 787-9s (+5 options).

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... -a-446654/
 
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Polot
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Re: Turkish Airlines MoU for 25 A350 and 25 787

Fri Mar 09, 2018 6:55 pm

Is this is a firm order, or a MoU replacing old ones? Article is unclear at parts.
 
rnav2dlrey
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Re: Turkish Airlines MoU for 25 A350 and 25 787

Fri Mar 09, 2018 7:01 pm

are these both the eventual replacements for the A330 fleet? leaving the 77W replacement still up in the air between the 777X and A35J?
 
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Polot
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Re: Turkish Airlines MoU for 25 A350 and 25 787

Fri Mar 09, 2018 7:03 pm

rnav2dlrey wrote:
are these both the eventual replacements for the A330 fleet? leaving the 77W replacement still up in the air between the 777X and A35J?

I think it is largely for growth, with maybe some of the older A330s leaving (along with the remaining A343s). Most of the A330s and 77Ws are fairly new. TK desperately needs a long haul aircraft with more range than the A333 but smaller than the 77W.
 
airzona11
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Re: Turkish Airlines MoU for 25 A350 and 25 787

Fri Mar 09, 2018 7:08 pm

Both aircraft seem great for TK. Gives them the range and size to grow, without as many seats to fill.
 
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william
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Re: Turkish Airlines MoU for 25 A350 and 25 787

Fri Mar 09, 2018 7:14 pm

And again we history repeating itself. Remember when airlines had 777s and A330s in the fleets performing different missions? We see the same happening in reverse, A350s and 787s performing different roles in airline fleets.
 
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Momo1435
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Re: Turkish Airlines MoU for 25 A350 and 25 787

Fri Mar 09, 2018 7:30 pm

"Rolls-Royce wins a landmark Trent order from Turkish Airlines"

https://www.rolls-royce.com/media/press ... lines.aspx

It's just for the A350s, so GE is probably getting the 787 engine order.
 
TC957
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Re: Turkish Airlines MoU for 25 A350 and 25 787

Fri Mar 09, 2018 7:31 pm

I thought TK had a MoU for 40 789's a few months ago ?
 
Egerton
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Re: Turkish Airlines MoU for 25 A350 and 25 787

Fri Mar 09, 2018 7:33 pm

An order for Trent XWB engines for 25 A359 + 5 options for Turkish Airlines is now on the RR website
 
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Momo1435
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Re: Turkish Airlines MoU for 25 A350 and 25 787

Fri Mar 09, 2018 7:35 pm

TC957 wrote:
I thought TK had a MoU for 40 789's a few months ago ?

That wasn't an MoU just an intention to order, now it's changed into 25 + 5, for now probably as a MoU, possibly order.


I can see TK also shopping for some more 787s and A350s on the leasing market.
 
behramjee
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Re: Turkish Airlines MoU for 25 A350 and 25 787

Fri Mar 09, 2018 7:38 pm

clarification can be read here on the TK order announcement:

http://atwonline.com/aircraft-orders-de ... hanges-mix
 
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TurboJet707
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Re: Turkish Airlines MoU for 25 A350 and 25 787

Fri Mar 09, 2018 7:45 pm

Momo1435 wrote:
"Rolls-Royce wins a landmark Trent order from Turkish Airlines"

https://www.rolls-royce.com/media/press ... lines.aspx

It's just for the A350s, so GE is probably getting the 787 engine order.


Good for Rolls-Royce, but in fact there isn't much choice on the A350...

The RR press release says: "Turkish Airlines currently operates 27 Trent 700 powered A330 aircraft and one Trent 500 powered A340".

That would be an A340-500 or - 600 then. Is that correct? Never seen such a plane in the TK fleet. :scratchchin:
 
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Polot
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Re: Turkish Airlines MoU for 25 A350 and 25 787

Fri Mar 09, 2018 7:50 pm

TurboJet707 wrote:
Momo1435 wrote:
"Rolls-Royce wins a landmark Trent order from Turkish Airlines"

https://www.rolls-royce.com/media/press ... lines.aspx

It's just for the A350s, so GE is probably getting the 787 engine order.


Good for Rolls-Royce, but in fact there isn't much choice on the A350...

The RR press release says: "Turkish Airlines currently operates 27 Trent 700 powered A330 aircraft and one Trent 500 powered A340".

That would be an A340-500 or - 600 then. Is that correct? Never seen such a plane in the TK fleet. :scratchchin:

Turkey has a VIP A340-500. It is probably technically owned or operated by TK.
 
ba319-131
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Re: Turkish Airlines MoU for 25 A350 and 25 787

Fri Mar 09, 2018 7:51 pm

The RR press release says: "Turkish Airlines currently operates 27 Trent 700 powered A330 aircraft and one Trent 500 powered A340".

That would be an A340-500 or - 600 then. Is that correct? Never seen such a plane in the TK fleet. :scratchchin:

- think this is a -500 operated for the government.
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gatibosgru
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Re: Turkish Airlines MoU for 25 A350 and 25 787

Fri Mar 09, 2018 8:13 pm

TK keeping everyone happy lol.
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Strato2
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Re: Turkish Airlines MoU for 25 A350 and 25 787

Fri Mar 09, 2018 8:15 pm

gatibosgru wrote:
TK keeping everyone happy lol.


Well Boeing might not be so happy when they "lost" 15 orders for the 787 and Airbus gained five orders for the A350. The original intent for TK was 40 787's and 20 A350's.
 
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Polot
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Re: Turkish Airlines MoU for 25 A350 and 25 787

Fri Mar 09, 2018 8:25 pm

Strato2 wrote:
gatibosgru wrote:
TK keeping everyone happy lol.


Well Boeing might not be so happy when they "lost" 15 orders for the 787 and Airbus gained five orders for the A350. The original intent for TK was 40 787's and 20 A350's.

The original LoI for 40 787s included options in that count.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Turkish Airlines MoU for 25 A350 and 25 787

Fri Mar 09, 2018 8:39 pm

Strato2 wrote:
gatibosgru wrote:
TK keeping everyone happy lol.

Well Boeing might not be so happy when they "lost" 15 orders for the 787 and Airbus gained five orders for the A350. The original intent for TK was 40 787's and 20 A350's.

The original TK "intention" for Boeing was 20 firm + 20 options, now they have 25 firm + 5 options.

I think the firm count being higher is a win for Team B.
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kaitak
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Re: Turkish Airlines MoU for 25 A350 and 25 787

Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:12 pm

Ultimately, there will be many more of both types; I think this is just the initial order and it will be added to over time, just as happened with the A330 and 777.
 
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Yakamoz
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Re: Turkish Airlines MoU for 25 A350 and 25 787

Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:20 pm

Can they change to the ULR version?
 
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Re: Turkish Airlines MoU for 25 A350 and 25 787

Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:22 pm

kaitak wrote:
Ultimately, there will be many more of both types; I think this is just the initial order and it will be added to over time, just as happened with the A330 and 777.


True. TK tests the waters before committing to a new aircraft type.
 
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Stitch
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Re: Turkish Airlines MoU for 25 A350 and 25 787

Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:22 pm

Yakamoz wrote:
Can they change to the ULR version?


Contracts almost always allow for swapping between models within a family.

That being said, not sure where they would need that range.
 
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KarelXWB
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Re: Turkish Airlines MoU for 25 A350 and 25 787

Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:35 pm

And here are the usual renders of the aircraft:

Image

Image

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Zaf
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Re: Turkish Airlines MoU for 25 A350 and 25 787

Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:21 pm

aldrigsomandre wrote:
kaitak wrote:
Ultimately, there will be many more of both types; I think this is just the initial order and it will be added to over time, just as happened with the A330 and 777.


True. TK tests the waters before committing to a new aircraft type.


Not sure about their strategy. They are always late in the game. When they finally get their 787s others will already start retiring them and replace with newer models.
Also why not order from single OEM 50-60 units and get a higher discount? An Airline of their size should plan better and ahead.
we armchair experts knew 3 years ago that TK needs a WB fleet of 150 planes. They also need 25-30 B777X but are they ordering it now? No, they wait until the order books are full.
 
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Re: Turkish Airlines MoU for 25 A350 and 25 787

Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:25 pm

Zaf wrote:
aldrigsomandre wrote:
kaitak wrote:
Ultimately, there will be many more of both types; I think this is just the initial order and it will be added to over time, just as happened with the A330 and 777.


True. TK tests the waters before committing to a new aircraft type.


Not sure about their strategy. They are always late in the game. When they finally get their 787s others will already start retiring them and replace with newer models.
Also why not order from single OEM 50-60 units and get a higher discount? An Airline of their size should plan better and ahead.
we armchair experts knew 3 years ago that TK needs a WB fleet of 150 planes. They also need 25-30 B777X but are they ordering it now? No, they wait until the order books are full.


Who in the world is gonna be retiring 787s any time soon? I see nothing wrong with TK ordering the aircraft now, the new IST airport will be ready to handle all these jets by the time they are delivered. Had they done it earlier I don't know where TK would put these aircraft at the current airport.
 
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Stitch
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Re: Turkish Airlines MoU for 25 A350 and 25 787

Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:31 pm

Zaf wrote:
Not sure about their strategy. They are always late in the game...Also why not order from single OEM 50-60 units and get a higher discount? An Airline of their size should plan better and ahead. we armchair experts knew 3 years ago that TK needs a WB fleet of 150 planes. They also need 25-30 B777X but are they ordering it now? No, they wait until the order books are full.


As I understand, a major impediment is lack of space at Istanbul Atatürk Airport to expand. Istanbul New Airport is scheduled to start operations by the end of this year so TK should have room to expand next decade when these frames start arriving in force.

As for ordering from a single OEM, the 787 and A350 are as much complimentary airframes as competitive ones. I would not be surprised if TK chooses to convert some of each family to the 787-10 and A350-1000 as well as order more of each type down the road (I would not be surprised if they to 50 firm and 10 options because for whatever reasons they could not finance all 60 as firm).
Last edited by Stitch on Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
JamesCousins
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Re: Turkish Airlines MoU for 25 A350 and 25 787

Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:37 pm

Zaf wrote:
aldrigsomandre wrote:
kaitak wrote:
Ultimately, there will be many more of both types; I think this is just the initial order and it will be added to over time, just as happened with the A330 and 777.


True. TK tests the waters before committing to a new aircraft type.


Not sure about their strategy. They are always late in the game. When they finally get their 787s others will already start retiring them and replace with newer models.
Also why not order from single OEM 50-60 units and get a higher discount? An Airline of their size should plan better and ahead.
we armchair experts knew 3 years ago that TK needs a WB fleet of 150 planes. They also need 25-30 B777X but are they ordering it now? No, they wait until the order books are full.


It seems to be working very well for them so far... I don't see 787's being retired anytime at-all soon. The first ones were delivered in 2011 and should see 20+ years of service. The 787-9 ordered are also considerably smaller than the A350-900, these 2 aircraft will operate different routes with varying demand. As for say a 787-9 and 787-10 order, Turkish may feel the need for an A350-1000 in the future, and getting A359's in sets up much of the infrastructure, likewise for the 787-8 or -10.

Balancing orders across Airbus and Boeing (I mean these are hardly small orders in their own rights) also helps keep the 2 on their toes, and can help garner better pricing, Turkish have a very balanced fleet overall. Many large airlines also prefer not to be heavily reliant on 1 or 2 fleet types, as issues can arise, such as those seen on current Rolls Royce 787s - this causes major issues for airlines like Norwegian who ONLY have 787s in their long-haul fleet.
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Re: Turkish Airlines MoU for 25 A350 and 25 787

Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:55 pm

TurboJet707 wrote:
The RR press release says: "Turkish Airlines currently operates 27 Trent 700 powered A330 aircraft and one Trent 500 powered A340".

That would be an A340-500 or - 600 then. Is that correct? Never seen such a plane in the TK fleet. :scratchchin:


TK manages the civilian VIP fleet. (A319/A330/A340, etc)



Zaf wrote:
aldrigsomandre wrote:
Not sure about their strategy. They are always late in the game. When they finally get their 787s others will already start retiring them and replace with newer models.
Also why not order from single OEM 50-60 units and get a higher discount? An Airline of their size should plan better and ahead.
we armchair experts knew 3 years ago that TK needs a WB fleet of 150 planes. They also need 25-30 B777X but are they ordering it now? No, they wait until the order books are full.


Late to the game :confused: :confused:

Many ways TK is ahead of the game.

Anyhow TK is not late, and it won't be waiting long. The first 6 frames arrive in 2019, with 14 more rapidly in 2020 with remainder arriving rapidly in years after.

And trust me TK got fantastic deals. Matter of fact TK will not buy screwdriver without negotiations and ensuring great discount. TK is very opportunistic purchaser, and master at negotiating and playing vendors off each other.
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RainerBoeing777
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Re: Turkish Airlines MoU for 25 A350 and 25 787

Fri Mar 09, 2018 11:55 pm

But are you finally going to buy the B787 and A350?
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Yakamoz
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Re: Turkish Airlines MoU for 25 A350 and 25 787

Sat Mar 10, 2018 5:33 am

Stitch wrote:
Yakamoz wrote:
Can they change to the ULR version?


Contracts almost always allow for swapping between models within a family.

That being said, not sure where they would need that range.


That was my question earlier this week in the Turkish Aviation thread before TK gave the firm order. Don't they need it for Australia, the ULR?

Yakamoz wrote:
I have a question regarding the intent of Turkish Airlines buying Airbus A350-900 (20+5) and Boeing 787-9 (20+20).

If we look to the future, TK would like to fly to YVR, SEA, MEX, DPS, maybe one time SCL and UIO nonstop, and also SYD, PER, MEL, maybe AKL.

There is no problem with YVR, SEA, DPS. Are there some problems/restrictions doing PER (7480 miles), MEX (7104 miles) and UIO (7119 miles) nonstop today without A350/B789 order in terms of cargo capacity/range/seat capacity, if it is done by B77W or A332/A333?

And what about the intent of A359 and B789? I mean we talk for ages now about SYD (9294 miles), MEL (9084 miles), PER (7480 miles), and I add now SCL (8132 miles) and AKL (10602 miles) for future. AKL is clearly not possible, maybe with B777X, I don´t know. But is IST-SYD/MEL nonstop without restrictions in flight hours/cargo/pax doable with A350-900 and B787-9? In my opinion, TK should order the A350-900ULR, not?

I ask these because I don´t think with the normal A350-900 or Boeing 787-9 TK could do anything without restrictions regarding Australia or longer routes to South America nonstop.

Thanks for feedback.
 
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Re: Turkish Airlines MoU for 25 A350 and 25 787

Sat Mar 10, 2018 5:49 am

Stitch wrote:
Yakamoz wrote:
Can they change to the ULR version?


Contracts almost always allow for swapping between models within a family.

That being said, not sure where they would need that range.

IST-SYD/MEL has been suggested in Australia for a number of years, without specifying if there was to be an intermediate stop. The A350ULR would fill the bill nicely as an intermediate stop, making Australia- Europe 2 stop, would not be viable. Done right they could give the ME3 a run for their money!

Gemuser
 
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Stitch
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Re: Turkish Airlines MoU for 25 A350 and 25 787

Sat Mar 10, 2018 7:16 pm

Yakamoz wrote:
Don't they need it for Australia, the ULR?

Gemuser wrote:
IST-SYD/MEL has been suggested in Australia for a number of years, without specifying if there was to be an intermediate stop. The A350ULR would fill the bill nicely as an intermediate stop, making Australia- Europe 2 stop, would not be viable. Done right they could give the ME3 a run for their money!


Turkish seems to cater mostly to Economy Class passengers (they scrapped their Premium Economy cabin and only a handful of their 777-300ERs has a substantial Business Class cabin) so I don't think they could make a non-stop to Australia work as I would expect payload restrictions would require blocking a not-insignificant number of seats on a frame configured mostly in Economy Class and between that and the fuel bill, I would expect fares to be substantially higher than the one-stops offered by the ME3 (especially EK on their A380s).
 
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ElroyJetson
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Re: Turkish Airlines MoU for 25 A350 and 25 787

Sat Mar 10, 2018 11:35 pm

Smart decision by TK. I think both aircraft will fit their route network very well and both are outstanding frames. A clear win for both A&B as well as TK imho.
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Re: Turkish Airlines MoU for 25 A350 and 25 787

Sun Mar 11, 2018 12:41 am

Increasing number of airlines are utilizing both the A350 and 787. Seems each has its own sweet spot making their use complimentary.
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Re: Turkish Airlines MoU for 25 A350 and 25 787

Sun Mar 11, 2018 9:03 am

Yakamoz wrote:
Can they change to the ULR version?

Of course they could, but why bother?

Where's a -ULR going to get them that a 280T standard A359 wouldn't?

Even if you're thinking Australia, realize that both would require reduced payload; thus the only advantage a -ULR would have, is if a 280T was fuel volume limited, which SYD/MEL might not actually do.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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Yakamoz
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Re: Turkish Airlines MoU for 25 A350 and 25 787

Mon Mar 12, 2018 3:50 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
Yakamoz wrote:
Can they change to the ULR version?

Of course they could, but why bother?

Where's a -ULR going to get them that a 280T standard A359 wouldn't?

Even if you're thinking Australia, realize that both would require reduced payload; thus the only advantage a -ULR would have, is if a 280T was fuel volume limited, which SYD/MEL might not actually do.


So this means an A359 with reduced payload or a B789 could do IST-SYD/MEL nonstop?
 
magga1
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Re: Turkish Airlines MoU for 25 A350 and 25 787

Mon Mar 12, 2018 4:17 pm

Boeing, Turkish Airlines Finalize Deal for Up to 30 787 Dreamliners

http://boeing.mediaroom.com/2018-03-12- ... reamliners
 
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LAXintl
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Re: Turkish Airlines MoU for 25 A350 and 25 787

Mon Mar 12, 2018 5:46 pm

GE CEO is in Turkey today.... Suspect GE engines on 787 are a topic of discussion.


Stitch wrote:
Turkish seems to cater mostly to Economy Class passengers (they scrapped their Premium Economy cabin and only a handful of their 777-300ERs has a substantial Business Class cabin)


Not sure where you get this info about its 77W fleet. All 30 TK frames have 49/300 config, while the 3 leased KQ 77Ws are 28/372.
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MD80MKE
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Re: Turkish Airlines MoU for 25 A350 and 25 787

Mon Mar 12, 2018 6:04 pm

So 787 is firm deal but A350 is MOU?
 
george77300
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Re: Turkish Airlines MoU for 25 A350 and 25 787

Mon Mar 12, 2018 6:08 pm

MD80MKE wrote:
So 787 is firm deal but A350 is MOU?


Currently yes.

http://boeing.mediaroom.com/2018-03-12- ... 84281976=1

787 firm for 25 + 5 options and the A350 is still a MOU but almost certainly will be firmed up.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Turkish Airlines MoU for 25 A350 and 25 787

Mon Mar 12, 2018 6:51 pm

Yakamoz wrote:
So this means an A359 with reduced payload or a B789 could do IST-SYD/MEL nonstop?

789 could, but it depends on how bad of a bath you're willing to take on payload. IST-SYD would be particularly taxing, as it's 250nm longer than PER-LHR than the 789 is already scheduled to fly. It's tough to envision an airline making money on that, with anything less than an all-premium (or at least, mostly-premium) configuration.

A359 would likely be a better platform; keeping in mind that "all" the A359ULR is, is a 280T A359 with modifications to use more of the existing tank that it already has, while taking a massive payload reduction in order to carry that fuel.

For a route that isn't beyond the standard A359's already-huge tankage capability (assuming the 280T availability post-2020), a -ULR modification doesn't really bring much to the table.

Of course, they could also go to the 778, which is more or less optimized for that sort of thing, as an option as well.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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TheRedBaron
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Re: Turkish Airlines MoU for 25 A350 and 25 787

Mon Mar 12, 2018 9:08 pm

I am Sure the 359 will be used in IST-MEX flights...
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LAXintl
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Re: Turkish Airlines MoU for 25 A350 and 25 787

Sat Apr 21, 2018 1:34 am

As predicted GE gets to power the 787 order.

Turkish Airlines chooses GE Aviation engines for new planes
https://www.reuters.com/article/thy-ge- ... SL8N1RX599

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RJMAZ
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Re: Turkish Airlines MoU for 25 A350 and 25 787

Sat Apr 21, 2018 2:17 am

The normal A350-900 can do Sydney to Melbourne at 280T MTO with a standard cabin. They don't need the ULR it would provide no benefit as the route.

It's when the airports are greater than 8000nm apart do you need the ULR and you have to reduce payload by approx 10% for every extra 100nm.

The 787-9 wouldn't be profitable to do that route. It would have 20% less passengers than the Perth to London flight.

Being centrally located I would have thought 787-10's would have covered the majority of their route map comfortably.

They must do a fair bit of cargo which would explain the 15 A350's.
 
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Re: Turkish Airlines MoU for 25 A350 and 25 787

Sat Apr 21, 2018 2:42 am

Under a cost-benefit prospective, would not it make financial sense only to stick to a single family of products? I do understand a fleet splitting between short- / medium-range and long-range but I think that equally purchasing A350s and 787s (which I would speculate would be used for long-range) would not lead to a process of cost optimization and potential economies of scale. Is customer preference such a big factor able to overshadow this or is it prestige?

Please, share your opinions.
 
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Re: Turkish Airlines MoU for 25 A350 and 25 787

Sat Apr 21, 2018 6:12 am

Turkey is in a delicate political situation at the moment, mostly thanks to its strongman's own decisions. I'm sure it is helpful from that perspective for TK to be a customer of both major OEMs. In the narrowbody space, the airline also makes good use of the respective strengths of both OEMs' products. In the widebody space, I'm sure they will find some heavy-lifting routes that can use the A350's excellent payload range.
 
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Re: Turkish Airlines MoU for 25 A350 and 25 787

Sat Apr 21, 2018 1:10 pm

FCOTSTW wrote:
Under a cost-benefit prospective, would not it make financial sense only to stick to a single family of products? I do understand a fleet splitting between short- / medium-range and long-range but I think that equally purchasing A350s and 787s (which I would speculate would be used for long-range) would not lead to a process of cost optimization and potential economies of scale. Is customer preference such a big factor able to overshadow this or is it prestige?

Depends. At longer ranges the 359 has clear advantage in payload over the 789. In fact Zeke has told us that beyond 6500nm the 359 carries more payload even than a 77W. So if TK are looking to carry higher pax/cargo payloads over these kind of ranges it's easy to see why they might want the 359 in the fleet.
 
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MrHMSH
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Re: Turkish Airlines MoU for 25 A350 and 25 787

Sat Apr 21, 2018 2:09 pm

FCOTSTW wrote:
Under a cost-benefit prospective, would not it make financial sense only to stick to a single family of products? I do understand a fleet splitting between short- / medium-range and long-range but I think that equally purchasing A350s and 787s (which I would speculate would be used for long-range) would not lead to a process of cost optimization and potential economies of scale. Is customer preference such a big factor able to overshadow this or is it prestige?

Please, share your opinions.


We're talking about an airline that has RR, GE and PW engines on its A330 fleet, the 738, 739, A319, A320 and A321 at the same time and will follow that up with respective MAX and Neos save the A319. Commonality just doesn't really bother them much. If anything, in comparison the A359 and 789 order is quite logical.

Given that that's the case it wouldn't surprise me *that* much if they ordered the A330neo and 777X as well.
 
xwb777
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Re: Turkish Airlines MoU for 25 A350 and 25 787

Sat Apr 21, 2018 2:12 pm

Turkish Airlines chooses GEnx-1B74/75 type engines for up to 30 B787-9

https://www.reuters.com/article/thy-ge- ... SL8N1RX599

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