Noise
Topic Author
Posts: 2457
Joined: Wed Dec 22, 1999 7:38 am

Air Italy - poised to become Italy's new flag carrier?

Sun Mar 11, 2018 9:01 pm

With Air Italy having 20 737 Max 8 and 30 787-8 or order, presumably for a significant short haul and long haul expansion, and establishing its hub in Milan, is Air Italy poised to overtake Alitalia and become Italy's new flag carrier? Is that the plan?
 
george77300
Posts: 1118
Joined: Sat May 06, 2017 8:33 pm

Re: Air Italy - poised to become Italy's new flag carrier?

Sun Mar 11, 2018 9:09 pm

Noise wrote:
With Air Italy having 20 737 Max 8 and 30 787-8 or order, presumably for a significant short haul and long haul expansion, and establishing its hub in Milan, is Air Italy poised to overtake Alitalia and become Italy's new flag carrier? Is that the plan?


I don't think that the 787 number is confirmed. Qatar have ordered 20 + 40 options of Boeing 737MAX for Air Italy but for widebodies they have 30 B787-9 on order. Air Italy is getting some ex QR A330 first and then the dreamliners. But QR have 30 B788 (and 30 B789 on order) so who is getting what and in what proportion is undecided I believe. Please do correct me if I'm wrong.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 18307
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Air Italy - poised to become Italy's new flag carrier?

Sun Mar 11, 2018 9:10 pm

Probably Ryanair.

It is sad how Alitalia was managed. But Europe is too small for every nation to have its own airline. It is just time to accept that.

Lightsaber
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
jfk777
Posts: 7093
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:23 am

Re: Air Italy - poised to become Italy's new flag carrier?

Sun Mar 11, 2018 9:32 pm

Air Italy is probably getting ex-Qatar 787-8 and not new 787's. Qatar 787-8 are not exactly "used" airplanes they are "certified pre owned" planes.
 
Zaf
Posts: 79
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 9:47 am

Re: Air Italy - poised to become Italy's new flag carrier?

Sun Mar 11, 2018 9:41 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Probably Ryanair.

It is sad how Alitalia was managed. But Europe is too small for every nation to have its own airline. It is just time to accept that.

Lightsaber

Italy is large and rich enough to justify 2 national airlines plus easyjet and Ryanair. We are not talking Albania or Hungary here.
Alitalia failed due to bad management and workforce, not because it's market is too small.
 
User avatar
PatrickZ80
Posts: 3945
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:33 am

Re: Air Italy - poised to become Italy's new flag carrier?

Sun Mar 11, 2018 10:37 pm

Zaf wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Probably Ryanair.

It is sad how Alitalia was managed. But Europe is too small for every nation to have its own airline. It is just time to accept that.

Lightsaber

Italy is large and rich enough to justify 2 national airlines plus easyjet and Ryanair. We are not talking Albania or Hungary here.
Alitalia failed due to bad management and workforce, not because it's market is too small.


I do not agree that Italy is large and rich enough for two national airlines. Germany is larger and richer than Italy and has less EasyJet and Ryanair presence, yet Air Berlin didn't make it. Germany wasn't large enough for two national airlines, so why would Italy be? However it's obvious they plan to jump in the hole that Alitalia will leave behind. We all know Alitalia won't make it, the only question is when they'll cease operations. That's the moment Air Italy will be waiting for. They'll be the legacy carrier for Italy once Alitalia is gone.
 
sofianec
Posts: 171
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 6:39 am

Re: Air Italy - poised to become Italy's new flag carrier?

Sun Mar 11, 2018 10:38 pm

It's a win-win for Qatar and Italy. The 787-8 order will be used by AirItaly while Qatar will get same number (30) of 787-9. Since commonality is very little between -8 and -9 makes sense for Qatar to keep the -9 and AirItaly to get -8 which smaller size actually is better for Europe/MXP (their largest as of now is 767-300ER).
A350WARP
 
User avatar
chunhimlai
Posts: 489
Joined: Wed Jun 03, 2015 11:03 am

Re: Air Italy - poised to become Italy's new flag carrier?

Sun Mar 11, 2018 11:41 pm

Will IG order A380?
 
george77300
Posts: 1118
Joined: Sat May 06, 2017 8:33 pm

Re: Air Italy - poised to become Italy's new flag carrier?

Mon Mar 12, 2018 12:11 am

chunhimlai wrote:
Will IG order A380?


:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
 
NYCVIE
Posts: 144
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2016 11:01 pm

Re: Air Italy - poised to become Italy's new flag carrier?

Mon Mar 12, 2018 12:16 am

PatrickZ80 wrote:
Zaf wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Probably Ryanair.

It is sad how Alitalia was managed. But Europe is too small for every nation to have its own airline. It is just time to accept that.

Lightsaber

Italy is large and rich enough to justify 2 national airlines plus easyjet and Ryanair. We are not talking Albania or Hungary here.
Alitalia failed due to bad management and workforce, not because it's market is too small.


I do not agree that Italy is large and rich enough for two national airlines. Germany is larger and richer than Italy and has less EasyJet and Ryanair presence, yet Air Berlin didn't make it. Germany wasn't large enough for two national airlines, so why would Italy be? However it's obvious they plan to jump in the hole that Alitalia will leave behind. We all know Alitalia won't make it, the only question is when they'll cease operations. That's the moment Air Italy will be waiting for. They'll be the legacy carrier for Italy once Alitalia is gone.


Germany is large and rich enough for two national carriers, AB was just a badly managed basket case.
 
whywhyzee
Posts: 1071
Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2016 3:12 am

Re: Air Italy - poised to become Italy's new flag carrier?

Mon Mar 12, 2018 1:44 am

sofianec wrote:
It's a win-win for Qatar and Italy. The 787-8 order will be used by AirItaly while Qatar will get same number (30) of 787-9. Since commonality is very little between -8 and -9 makes sense for Qatar to keep the -9 and AirItaly to get -8 which smaller size actually is better for Europe/MXP (their largest as of now is 767-300ER).


Commonality between the 8 and 9 is little...say what. They are the same base airframe, there is a huge amount of commonality. Very little commonality is maybe an appropriate descriptor for an A320 and A380. Not two members of the same family. You over estimate their differences.
 
LAXLHR
Posts: 448
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2016 10:07 am

Re: Air Italy - poised to become Italy's new flag carrier?

Mon Mar 12, 2018 2:25 am

Zaf wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Probably Ryanair.

It is sad how Alitalia was managed. But Europe is too small for every nation to have its own airline. It is just time to accept that.

Lightsaber

Italy is large and rich enough to justify 2 national airlines plus easyjet and Ryanair. We are not talking Albania or Hungary here.
Alitalia failed due to bad management and workforce, not because it's market is too small.


Thank you, Zaf!
BA IB ET JM EA GK PA VS AA SN HP CO W7 WN NW DL UA AC US LH LX OS JL QF QR WY MH CX U2 EK 9W UK TP VY VN LO OK OZ UL SQ LA

707 727 L10 732-NG 741 742 743 744 752 753 762 763 772 773 787 DC8 DC9 DC10 M80 M11 100 AB3 310 318 319 320 321 332 333 342 343 380
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 6073
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Air Italy - poised to become Italy's new flag carrier?

Mon Mar 12, 2018 2:28 am

Noise wrote:
With Air Italy having 20 737 Max 8 and 30 787-8 or order, presumably for a significant short haul and long haul expansion, and establishing its hub in Milan, is Air Italy poised to overtake Alitalia and become Italy's new flag carrier? Is that the plan?


In a deregulated EU-wide air market, 'flag carrier' really has no meaning.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 18307
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Air Italy - poised to become Italy's new flag carrier?

Mon Mar 12, 2018 2:29 am

PatrickZ80 wrote:
Zaf wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Probably Ryanair.

It is sad how Alitalia was managed. But Europe is too small for every nation to have its own airline. It is just time to accept that.

Lightsaber

Italy is large and rich enough to justify 2 national airlines plus easyjet and Ryanair. We are not talking Albania or Hungary here.
Alitalia failed due to bad management and workforce, not because it's market is too small.


I do not agree that Italy is large and rich enough for two national airlines. Germany is larger and richer than Italy and has less EasyJet and Ryanair presence, yet Air Berlin didn't make it. Germany wasn't large enough for two national airlines, so why would Italy be? However it's obvious they plan to jump in the hole that Alitalia will leave behind. We all know Alitalia won't make it, the only question is when they'll cease operations. That's the moment Air Italy will be waiting for. They'll be the legacy carrier for Italy once Alitalia is gone.

I'm not arguing Italy doesn't have a big economy. But look at California. Do we have a major airline? No. Why? The US won't support that many major airlines.

It is sad Italia was so poorly managed. But why would an airline of 11 aircraft automatically grow to national airline status? When Alitalia shuts down, other airlines will compete. The Italian economy cannot wait a long time for new service. Ryanair, LH, AF/KLM, IAG, Easyjet, Norwegian, and Wizz will all jump in.

Consolidation is happening. Europe needs to nationalize to the EU.

Lightsaber
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
User avatar
EK413
Posts: 5273
Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2003 3:11 pm

Re: Air Italy - poised to become Italy's new flag carrier?

Mon Mar 12, 2018 2:46 am

Noise wrote:
With Air Italy having 20 737 Max 8 and 30 787-8 or order, presumably for a significant short haul and long haul expansion, and establishing its hub in Milan, is Air Italy poised to overtake Alitalia and become Italy's new flag carrier? Is that the plan?


The way I see it Air Italy has a good chance of filling in the gap left behind by Alitalia. Will it become the national carrier as many have already mentioned Air Italy have the likes of LH (their last attempt failed?) Ryanair, Easyjet, KL/AF, Wizz, Norwegian which is already expanding.

I wouldn’t throw IAG into the mix taking into account their relationship with QR. Perhaps they’ll come to the table & back up the expansion of Air Italy?

Italy need to let go & allow a better run carrier step up. The government is digging a grave constantly injecting funds to keep their pride afloat.

That’s my 0.02c worth.

EK413
Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
 
dcajet
Posts: 4182
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:31 am

Re: Air Italy - poised to become Italy's new flag carrier?

Mon Mar 12, 2018 3:08 am

lightsaber wrote:
I'm not arguing Italy doesn't have a big economy. But look at California. Do we have a major airline? No. Why? The US won't support that many major airlines.

It is sad Italia was so poorly managed. But why would an airline of 11 aircraft automatically grow to national airline status? When Alitalia shuts down, other airlines will compete. The Italian economy cannot wait a long time for new service. Ryanair, LH, AF/KLM, IAG, Easyjet, Norwegian, and Wizz will all jump in.

Consolidation is happening. Europe needs to nationalize to the EU.

Lightsaber


Are you serious? You can't compare US states to EU member states. They are not the same thing, from any way you look at it. The historic processes that led to the creation of the US in the XVIII century and the EC then EU in the XX century can't be compared. Saying the EU needs to become one country overlooks that fact.

The UK supports two airlines; so does Spain. Why can't Italy?

Besides, I would not put all my money in Air Italy. I would not be surprised if, say 5-10 years down the road, these QR-sponsored airlines don't end up like the ones Etihad invested in. QR is not exactly going thru the best of times...
"Unattended children will be given espresso and a free kitten"
 
hz747300
Posts: 2381
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 11:38 pm

Re: Air Italy - poised to become Italy's new flag carrier?

Mon Mar 12, 2018 3:28 am

dcajet wrote:

Are you serious? You can't compare US states to EU member states. They are not the same thing, from any way you look at it. The historic processes that led to the creation of the US in the XVIII century and the EC then EU in the XX century can't be compared. Saying the EU needs to become one country overlooks that fact.

The UK supports two airlines; so does Spain. Why can't Italy?

Besides, I would not put all my money in Air Italy. I would not be surprised if, say 5-10 years down the road, these QR-sponsored airlines don't end up like the ones Etihad invested in. QR is not exactly going thru the best of times...


I'm not sure that I would say the UK supports two airlines. It has one main airline (BA) and two others that compete on niche's (Flybe and Virgin) and massive presence of two LCCs (Ryanair and Easyjet). Italy probably could be in the same boat, but eventually something will have to be done with Alitalia. I flew on Meridiana on a short flight from Sardinia to Milan Linate, on a very old MD-80-something. If this outfit had modern planes and a workable cost structure, it probably could become the main carrier of Italy. I like the Air Italy livery too, and maybe they can launch longhaul service to HKG once the ex-QR birds start flying.
Keep on truckin'...
 
Blerg
Posts: 2541
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: Air Italy - poised to become Italy's new flag carrier?

Mon Mar 12, 2018 6:07 am

PatrickZ80 wrote:
Zaf wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Probably Ryanair.

It is sad how Alitalia was managed. But Europe is too small for every nation to have its own airline. It is just time to accept that.

Lightsaber

Italy is large and rich enough to justify 2 national airlines plus easyjet and Ryanair. We are not talking Albania or Hungary here.
Alitalia failed due to bad management and workforce, not because it's market is too small.


I do not agree that Italy is large and rich enough for two national airlines. Germany is larger and richer than Italy and has less EasyJet and Ryanair presence, yet Air Berlin didn't make it. Germany wasn't large enough for two national airlines, so why would Italy be? However it's obvious they plan to jump in the hole that Alitalia will leave behind. We all know Alitalia won't make it, the only question is when they'll cease operations. That's the moment Air Italy will be waiting for. They'll be the legacy carrier for Italy once Alitalia is gone.



Well, for starters look at both countries from a geographical point of view. Germany is flat and is exposed to the sea only partially in the north meaning airlines serving these markets have to compete with buses, cars, trains ... not only for international traffic but domestic one too.

Italy, on the other hand, is a mountainous peninsula, surrounded by water on three sides. Air travel is far more important in Italy than it is in Germany. On top of that, Alitalia seems to be concentrating on Rome while Air Italy is focusing on Milan. These two economic and cultural hubs are some 570 km apart meaning that they are not even competing for the same market.

Someone who is living around Rome has to fly if he wants to reach southern France, Spain, Croatia, Montenegro, Albania and even Greece simply because the alternative is unattractive. Taking a train from Rome to Barcelona or Madrid simply makes no sense because you would have to make a huge detour.
Another example is what happens if someone wants to go from Milan to Sicily or Sardinia? Sure there are ferries but once again, taking a flight is much easier and more convenient.

Also, Lightsaber, maybe you should read on European history in order to understand why consolidation (both political and aviation) will never happen in Europe.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 18307
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Air Italy - poised to become Italy's new flag carrier?

Mon Mar 12, 2018 8:09 am

Blerg wrote:
PatrickZ80 wrote:
Zaf wrote:
Italy is large and rich enough to justify 2 national airlines plus easyjet and Ryanair. We are not talking Albania or Hungary here.
Alitalia failed due to bad management and workforce, not because it's market is too small.


I do not agree that Italy is large and rich enough for two national airlines. Germany is larger and richer than Italy and has less EasyJet and Ryanair presence, yet Air Berlin didn't make it. Germany wasn't large enough for two national airlines, so why would Italy be? However it's obvious they plan to jump in the hole that Alitalia will leave behind. We all know Alitalia won't make it, the only question is when they'll cease operations. That's the moment Air Italy will be waiting for. They'll be the legacy carrier for Italy once Alitalia is gone.



Well, for starters look at both countries from a geographical point of view. Germany is flat and is exposed to the sea only partially in the north meaning airlines serving these markets have to compete with buses, cars, trains ... not only for international traffic but domestic one too.

Italy, on the other hand, is a mountainous peninsula, surrounded by water on three sides. Air travel is far more important in Italy than it is in Germany. On top of that, Alitalia seems to be concentrating on Rome while Air Italy is focusing on Milan. These two economic and cultural hubs are some 570 km apart meaning that they are not even competing for the same market.

Someone who is living around Rome has to fly if he wants to reach southern France, Spain, Croatia, Montenegro, Albania and even Greece simply because the alternative is unattractive. Taking a train from Rome to Barcelona or Madrid simply makes no sense because you would have to make a huge detour.
Another example is what happens if someone wants to go from Milan to Sicily or Sardinia? Sure there are ferries but once again, taking a flight is much easier and more convenient.

Also, Lightsaber, maybe you should read on European history in order to understand why consolidation (both political and aviation) will never happen in Europe.

Consolidation in aviation is already happening such as IAG, LH group, AF/KLM, Ryanair, Norwegian, and Wizz. I've met few people who have read as much economics and history as I have. The required economies of scale force airlines to group for equipment purchases.

A good analogy is FIAT. They do well selling car engines and transmissions to many automakers who cannot justify developing on their own. Italian airlines will be competing without economy of scale.

I live in the Western USA where distances force air travel. But where is PSA and Western?

I agree Italy needs air transport. It is a question of who provides it after the failure of Alitalia. LH will naturally feed traffic into MUC. TK will feed traffic into IST. FR, Wizz, Easyjet, Norwegian, and Wizz will all compete for customers. This will not leave a window for a startup to grow to national airline status.

One example is Wizz consolidating with Indigo partners to cut equipment purchase costs, including aircraft. How is little Air Italy working to compete in that environment?

You used multiple examples of flights to other nations where existing EU airlines will pick up the slack.

Alitalia was Italy's last hope of a national airline. It is now a Zombie corporation.

Lightsaber
 
AirCalSNA
Posts: 397
Joined: Mon Mar 08, 2010 9:35 pm

Re: Air Italy - poised to become Italy's new flag carrier?

Mon Mar 12, 2018 8:27 am

lightsaber wrote:
PatrickZ80 wrote:
Zaf wrote:
Italy is large and rich enough to justify 2 national airlines plus easyjet and Ryanair. We are not talking Albania or Hungary here.
Alitalia failed due to bad management and workforce, not because it's market is too small.


I do not agree that Italy is large and rich enough for two national airlines. Germany is larger and richer than Italy and has less EasyJet and Ryanair presence, yet Air Berlin didn't make it. Germany wasn't large enough for two national airlines, so why would Italy be? However it's obvious they plan to jump in the hole that Alitalia will leave behind. We all know Alitalia won't make it, the only question is when they'll cease operations. That's the moment Air Italy will be waiting for. They'll be the legacy carrier for Italy once Alitalia is gone.

I'm not arguing Italy doesn't have a big economy. But look at California. Do we have a major airline? No. Why? The US won't support that many major airlines.

It is sad Italia was so poorly managed. But why would an airline of 11 aircraft automatically grow to national airline status? When Alitalia shuts down, other airlines will compete. The Italian economy cannot wait a long time for new service. Ryanair, LH, AF/KLM, IAG, Easyjet, Norwegian, and Wizz will all jump in.

Consolidation is happening. Europe needs to nationalize to the EU.

Lightsaber


I don't understand what you mean when you say California or any other market "can't support its own airline," when in fact California (and other similar sized markets) did support its own airlines for a long time. It's more a matter of how much economic power the government allows one particular company to amass which can be used to push the competition out (or make the locals offers they can't refuse). There's always pressure toward consolidation not because local markets can't thrive but because of the economies of scale that larger companies can use to their benefit. Of course holding the majors at bay would lead to higher consumer prices, which is why the airline industry was deregulated. But many non-national markets are plenty large to survive on their own if the dial were pushed back toward regulation.
 
Blerg
Posts: 2541
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: Air Italy - poised to become Italy's new flag carrier?

Mon Mar 12, 2018 9:19 am

lightsaber wrote:
Blerg wrote:
PatrickZ80 wrote:

I do not agree that Italy is large and rich enough for two national airlines. Germany is larger and richer than Italy and has less EasyJet and Ryanair presence, yet Air Berlin didn't make it. Germany wasn't large enough for two national airlines, so why would Italy be? However it's obvious they plan to jump in the hole that Alitalia will leave behind. We all know Alitalia won't make it, the only question is when they'll cease operations. That's the moment Air Italy will be waiting for. They'll be the legacy carrier for Italy once Alitalia is gone.



Well, for starters look at both countries from a geographical point of view. Germany is flat and is exposed to the sea only partially in the north meaning airlines serving these markets have to compete with buses, cars, trains ... not only for international traffic but domestic one too.

Italy, on the other hand, is a mountainous peninsula, surrounded by water on three sides. Air travel is far more important in Italy than it is in Germany. On top of that, Alitalia seems to be concentrating on Rome while Air Italy is focusing on Milan. These two economic and cultural hubs are some 570 km apart meaning that they are not even competing for the same market.

Someone who is living around Rome has to fly if he wants to reach southern France, Spain, Croatia, Montenegro, Albania and even Greece simply because the alternative is unattractive. Taking a train from Rome to Barcelona or Madrid simply makes no sense because you would have to make a huge detour.
Another example is what happens if someone wants to go from Milan to Sicily or Sardinia? Sure there are ferries but once again, taking a flight is much easier and more convenient.

Also, Lightsaber, maybe you should read on European history in order to understand why consolidation (both political and aviation) will never happen in Europe.

Consolidation in aviation is already happening such as IAG, LH group, AF/KLM, Ryanair, Norwegian, and Wizz. I've met few people who have read as much economics and history as I have. The required economies of scale force airlines to group for equipment purchases.

A good analogy is FIAT. They do well selling car engines and transmissions to many automakers who cannot justify developing on their own. Italian airlines will be competing without economy of scale.

I live in the Western USA where distances force air travel. But where is PSA and Western?

I agree Italy needs air transport. It is a question of who provides it after the failure of Alitalia. LH will naturally feed traffic into MUC. TK will feed traffic into IST. FR, Wizz, Easyjet, Norwegian, and Wizz will all compete for customers. This will not leave a window for a startup to grow to national airline status.

One example is Wizz consolidating with Indigo partners to cut equipment purchase costs, including aircraft. How is little Air Italy working to compete in that environment?

You used multiple examples of flights to other nations where existing EU airlines will pick up the slack.

Alitalia was Italy's last hope of a national airline. It is now a Zombie corporation.

Lightsaber


No one said consolidation is not happening, I am merely pointing out that it will never be the same as in the US where you have three airlines running the circus.

Europe might have lost some airlines but in the meantime new ones have appeared such as Ellinair in Greece, WOW in Iceland or Volotea in Italy/Spain/France. These are all regional carriers that have the potential to grow. Take Ellinair as an example. They come from bankrupted Greece but they have already grown to have a fleet of 10 aircraft because they found a market within which they can grow. They even managed to survive on the highly competitive ATH-SKG market despite competition from both Aegean and Ryanair.

Air Italy might be small today but it doesn't mean it still will be tomorrow or the day after. It takes time to grow a business. They can't become LH or AF overnight. Milan is a large, rich market while MXP is relatively underserved. They are combining these two factors to help them grow.

Yes, Italian market will survive if Alitalia goes under but fares will inevitably go up and that's something no one wants. Luckily for all of us, there is zero chance of Alitalia going bankrupt, especially not now after the elections.
 
NZ321
Posts: 1112
Joined: Fri Jul 31, 2015 8:00 pm

Re: Air Italy - poised to become Italy's new flag carrier?

Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:58 am

The way things are run in Italy it would be good to have two international airlines competing in some markets and existing on their own in others. Not sure we need to worry about "flag carrier". It will take Air Italy a fair while to grow frequency and product profile / dependency to convince travelers they are a viable international long haul option.
Plane mad!
 
oldannyboy
Posts: 2424
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:28 am

Re: Air Italy - poised to become Italy's new flag carrier?

Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:20 am

Air Italy is based in Milan (MXP)..a LOOOOONG way from Rome...a whole different market, with its own vast and VERY wealthy catchment area (including the south of Switzerland). It surely can grow and become large and successful. The region of Lombardy itself is probably wealthier than Bavaria...

Alitalia, which by the way is all but gone, is based in Rome, which although lower yielding is still a vast market and one of the world's top tourist destinations, and benefits from the vast catchment area that is the south of the country and the Mediterranean basin.

Both airlines have a case for surviving and serving different market IF (big IF) they are both run and administered in a thoughtful manner.

By the way, I have recently flown 5 sectors with AZ, including two long-hauls in their Premium Economy and found them to be actually very good, both in terms of hardware (excellent seat!) as well as in terms of food offerings, amenities, cabin crews etc.
Rome is actually a breeze for transfers, with AZ ground personnel actively helping people with tight connections. Much better that FRA or CDG, really.
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 8813
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: Air Italy - poised to become Italy's new flag carrier?

Mon Mar 12, 2018 12:10 pm

Does it really matter if Airitaly becomes the new flag carrier or not? I think that is the wrong question. As long as Allitaly will exist and keep muddling on, it will be regarded as the flag carrier of Italy.
Airitaly with its hub at Mailand will have its hub in the richest area of Italy, as some already mentioned. O&D will not only be tourists, but a rich business community, not well connected as it is. Perhaps they will need feed from other airports in this region, like TRN, GOA, BLQ, VCE, PMF and VRN.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 18307
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Air Italy - poised to become Italy's new flag carrier?

Mon Mar 12, 2018 1:51 pm

Serious question:
Is there any EU law stopping Turkish, Pegasus, or Air Baltic from filling the gap?


Blerg wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Blerg wrote:


Well, for starters look at both countries from a geographical point of view. Germany is flat and is exposed to the sea only partially in the north meaning airlines serving these markets have to compete with buses, cars, trains ... not only for international traffic but domestic one too.

Italy, on the other hand, is a mountainous peninsula, surrounded by water on three sides. Air travel is far more important in Italy than it is in Germany. On top of that, Alitalia seems to be concentrating on Rome while Air Italy is focusing on Milan. These two economic and cultural hubs are some 570 km apart meaning that they are not even competing for the same market.

Someone who is living around Rome has to fly if he wants to reach southern France, Spain, Croatia, Montenegro, Albania and even Greece simply because the alternative is unattractive. Taking a train from Rome to Barcelona or Madrid simply makes no sense because you would have to make a huge detour.
Another example is what happens if someone wants to go from Milan to Sicily or Sardinia? Sure there are ferries but once again, taking a flight is much easier and more convenient.

Also, Lightsaber, maybe you should read on European history in order to understand why consolidation (both political and aviation) will never happen in Europe.

Consolidation in aviation is already happening such as IAG, LH group, AF/KLM, Ryanair, Norwegian, and Wizz. I've met few people who have read as much economics and history as I have. The required economies of scale force airlines to group for equipment purchases.

A good analogy is FIAT. They do well selling car engines and transmissions to many automakers who cannot justify developing on their own. Italian airlines will be competing without economy of scale.

I live in the Western USA where distances force air travel. But where is PSA and Western?

I agree Italy needs air transport. It is a question of who provides it after the failure of Alitalia. LH will naturally feed traffic into MUC. TK will feed traffic into IST. FR, Wizz, Easyjet, Norwegian, and Wizz will all compete for customers. This will not leave a window for a startup to grow to national airline status.

One example is Wizz consolidating with Indigo partners to cut equipment purchase costs, including aircraft. How is little Air Italy working to compete in that environment?

You used multiple examples of flights to other nations where existing EU airlines will pick up the slack.

Alitalia was Italy's last hope of a national airline. It is now a Zombie corporation.

Lightsaber


No one said consolidation is not happening, I am merely pointing out that it will never be the same as in the US where you have three airlines running the circus.

Europe might have lost some airlines but in the meantime new ones have appeared such as Ellinair in Greece, WOW in Iceland or Volotea in Italy/Spain/France. These are all regional carriers that have the potential to grow. Take Ellinair as an example. They come from bankrupted Greece but they have already grown to have a fleet of 10 aircraft because they found a market within which they can grow. They even managed to survive on the highly competitive ATH-SKG market despite competition from both Aegean and Ryanair.

Air Italy might be small today but it doesn't mean it still will be tomorrow or the day after. It takes time to grow a business. They can't become LH or AF overnight. Milan is a large, rich market while MXP is relatively underserved. They are combining these two factors to help them grow.

Yes, Italian market will survive if Alitalia goes under but fares will inevitably go up and that's something no one wants. Luckily for all of us, there is zero chance of Alitalia going bankrupt, especially not now after the the subsidies.elections.

I see no reason Alitalia won't go bankrupt.

Where did you get the idea I thought 3 airlines would split Italy? I see at least eleven EU airlines going for the market. Of course Air Italy will be one.

Lightsaber

I missed LH went to the EU to force an end to subsidies. https://www.google.com/amp/mobile.reute ... SKCN1GI1A8

I'm sorry Alitalia is in the state it is. But this closes the door to another bailout.
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
Drucocu
Posts: 54
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2017 9:17 am

Re: Air Italy - poised to become Italy's new flag carrier?

Mon Mar 12, 2018 2:17 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Serious question:
Is there any EU law stopping Turkish, Pegasus, or Air Baltic from filling the gap?


Well, given that Turkish and Pegasus aren't part of the ECAA, only gap they'll be able to fill is Italy-Turkey.
AirBaltic as a Latvian airline and thus member of the ECAA is free to do whatever they like, though I have a hard time imagining them stepping into the Italian market.
 
oldannyboy
Posts: 2424
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:28 am

Re: Air Italy - poised to become Italy's new flag carrier?

Mon Mar 12, 2018 2:29 pm

lightsaber wrote:

I see no reason Alitalia won't go bankrupt.


Sorry, no offence meant, but that just shows how little you know about the country (Italy).
Alitalia is all but on the verge of collapse. You should see the beehive of activity that FCO is these days, with new routes announcements, new uniforms being announced, and new aircrafts joining the fleet amidst a grand fanfare!
And even if AZ proved to be precious little beyond a pet vanity project of the current political elite, the same will make sure the airline won't go under. Rest assured!
 
steman
Posts: 1575
Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2000 4:55 pm

Re: Air Italy - poised to become Italy's new flag carrier?

Mon Mar 12, 2018 2:54 pm

oldannyboy wrote:
lightsaber wrote:

I see no reason Alitalia won't go bankrupt.


Sorry, no offence meant, but that just shows how little you know about the country (Italy).
Alitalia is all but on the verge of collapse. You should see the beehive of activity that FCO is these days, with new routes announcements, new uniforms being announced, and new aircrafts joining the fleet amidst a grand fanfare!
And even if AZ proved to be precious little beyond a pet vanity project of the current political elite, the same will make sure the airline won't go under. Rest assured!


You are right. Alitalia will never go under. Although officially a private enterprise it´s still regarded as a State owned Company, a political toy for many interests.
Unions, politicians, parties, lobbysts, they all have an interest in Alitalia and each one will use the company for their own gains. It´s been like this since 1947 and there´s no end in sight for this system. It also perfectly reflects the way things are done in Italy (though not only there). Therefore they will never let it go under. It is a too important reservoir of votes and favours.

Although Alitalia is financially struggling, it is not on the verge of collapse.
It actually operates quite well, on par with many other competitors. It´s not best nor the worst airline in Europe. It has a decent European and Domestic network and a small but not insignificant intercontinental route map.

Having said that, I believe that Air Italy has a chance to develop a niche for itself, especially if managed well.

As for flag carrier, I think this concept belongs to the past, at least in Europe.
 
FatCat
Posts: 975
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 2:02 pm

Re: Air Italy - poised to become Italy's new flag carrier?

Fri Apr 06, 2018 2:10 pm

As an italian I do have mixed feelings on our flag carrier.
AZ was a recipient for "friends of" and bribery and all sort of italian jobs during its golden years. Bribery over planes orders are well known history, then we had the businessmen agreement when AF made an offer for € 1,5B, then it went bankrupt and the businessmen didn't spend a cent, then they split over the company in half (bad company with debts and newco with earnings) so many debts weren't paid off, and justified strikes, and trained crews leaving for other companies, then we had Etihad, as for football teams we always wait for the Sheik or the Chinese "with a bag full of money" but it turned out that the guys at Etihad were not stupid and now they're gone, too.
I do fly quite a lot in Europe and it's ridicolous how it is impossible to fly with AZ. To fly wherewer you have to first go to FCO. That means you loose at least 1 hour to land, disembark, go to the other gate, embark, take off, hoping that your baggage does not get robbed in the process. Then there's the price, I remember last year to fly from FLR to STR, with AZ I had to fly FLR-FCO, then FCO-BEG (!!!!) wait @ BEG for 1 day and then BEG-STR, all for only € 1700,- round trip. I spent (well the office spent, lol) about € 500,- with EN FLR-FRA and FRA-STR with LH, round trip.
The new Air Italy surely has potential, but more on long haul I think. AZ only has a bunch of A332s and some 10 B77E, a single B77W that's flying FCO-JFK on the flight that was made by the mighty B742...
Aeroplane flies high
Turns left, looks right
 
FatCat
Posts: 975
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 2:02 pm

Re: Air Italy - poised to become Italy's new flag carrier?

Fri Jun 08, 2018 8:42 am

Today's news, as usual during Summer times Fridays, a lot of transportation strikes.
Air Italy employees also are striking, beside ENAV's and trains personnel.
http://www.rainews.it/dl/rainews/artico ... de4fb.html

That's how you boost the tourism (to other Countries)!
Aeroplane flies high
Turns left, looks right
 
LupineChemist
Posts: 802
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2015 9:03 am

Re: Air Italy - poised to become Italy's new flag carrier?

Fri Jun 08, 2018 9:14 am

The future for Europe is clearly more consolidation of big EU3. IG seems prime to be picked up by IAG so while they are separate airlines, strategies are clearly aligned to avoid competition internally within the groups.

Though I have no idea if Italy has many important bilaterals that matter enough to warrant keeping an Italian AOC, that's certainly a big reason why operations haven't consolidated less within European groups.
 
smi0006
Posts: 2364
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 7:45 am

Re: Air Italy - poised to become Italy's new flag carrier?

Fri Jun 08, 2018 9:21 am

LupineChemist wrote:
The future for Europe is clearly more consolidation of big EU3. IG seems prime to be picked up by IAG so while they are separate airlines, strategies are clearly aligned to avoid competition internally within the groups.

Though I have no idea if Italy has many important bilaterals that matter enough to warrant keeping an Italian AOC, that's certainly a big reason why operations haven't consolidated less within European groups.


As a side note how much of IAG does QR own, and would there be an issue if IAG bought the non-QR share of IG?
 
User avatar
Channex757
Posts: 2364
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:07 am

Re: Air Italy - poised to become Italy's new flag carrier?

Fri Jun 08, 2018 9:42 am

smi0006 wrote:
LupineChemist wrote:
The future for Europe is clearly more consolidation of big EU3. IG seems prime to be picked up by IAG so while they are separate airlines, strategies are clearly aligned to avoid competition internally within the groups.

Though I have no idea if Italy has many important bilaterals that matter enough to warrant keeping an Italian AOC, that's certainly a big reason why operations haven't consolidated less within European groups.


As a side note how much of IAG does QR own, and would there be an issue if IAG bought the non-QR share of IG?

The scenario I see here is a merger. IG would be folded into IAG, and Qatar issued with additional IAG stock.

QR can own up to 49.9% of IAG so it might be a situation where the Qatari investors see value in owning even more of this behemoth. As it's been said here over and over, it is the conglomerates which are the survivors. IG could be a valuable chip for QR to play if done right.
 
FatCat
Posts: 975
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 2:02 pm

Re: Air Italy - poised to become Italy's new flag carrier?

Fri Jun 08, 2018 9:54 am

Channex757 wrote:
IG could be a valuable chip for QR to play if done right.

Disagree.
Maybe will be - let's see if survives FR, U2, VY, and other LCCs on nationals and european routes and with LHG / AF-KLM / other main carriers offering smooth connections and even direct flights for long haul routes.
Aeroplane flies high
Turns left, looks right
 
vahancrazy
Posts: 178
Joined: Sat Jun 23, 2007 5:54 pm

Re: Air Italy - poised to become Italy's new flag carrier?

Fri Jun 08, 2018 9:55 am

FatCat wrote:
Today's news, as usual during Summer times Fridays, a lot of transportation strikes.
Air Italy employees also are striking, beside ENAV's and trains personnel.
http://www.rainews.it/dl/rainews/artico ... de4fb.html

That's how you boost the tourism (to other Countries)!


Strikes are luckily last of issues for tourism: if strikes were a problem, France would have 0 tourism due to French tendency to strike ;)
 
LupineChemist
Posts: 802
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2015 9:03 am

Re: Air Italy - poised to become Italy's new flag carrier?

Fri Jun 08, 2018 9:56 am

smi0006 wrote:
LupineChemist wrote:
The future for Europe is clearly more consolidation of big EU3. IG seems prime to be picked up by IAG so while they are separate airlines, strategies are clearly aligned to avoid competition internally within the groups.

Though I have no idea if Italy has many important bilaterals that matter enough to warrant keeping an Italian AOC, that's certainly a big reason why operations haven't consolidated less within European groups.


As a side note how much of IAG does QR own, and would there be an issue if IAG bought the non-QR share of IG?


Going off memory, so probably mistaken, but I believe it's at 15%
 
SCQ83
Posts: 5418
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:32 pm

Re: Air Italy - poised to become Italy's new flag carrier?

Fri Jun 08, 2018 10:01 am

IG in IAG would be cool. UK-Italy and Spain-Italy are among the largest intra-European markets.
 
senatorflyer
Posts: 324
Joined: Tue Jul 24, 2012 10:57 am

Re: Air Italy - poised to become Italy's new flag carrier?

Fri Jun 08, 2018 11:01 am

lightsaber wrote:
Blerg wrote:
PatrickZ80 wrote:

I do not agree that Italy is large and rich enough for two national airlines. Germany is larger and richer than Italy and has less EasyJet and Ryanair presence, yet Air Berlin didn't make it. Germany wasn't large enough for two national airlines, so why would Italy be? However it's obvious they plan to jump in the hole that Alitalia will leave behind. We all know Alitalia won't make it, the only question is when they'll cease operations. That's the moment Air Italy will be waiting for. They'll be the legacy carrier for Italy once Alitalia is gone.



Well, for starters look at both countries from a geographical point of view. Germany is flat and is exposed to the sea only partially in the north meaning airlines serving these markets have to compete with buses, cars, trains ... not only for international traffic but domestic one too.

Italy, on the other hand, is a mountainous peninsula, surrounded by water on three sides. Air travel is far more important in Italy than it is in Germany. On top of that, Alitalia seems to be concentrating on Rome while Air Italy is focusing on Milan. These two economic and cultural hubs are some 570 km apart meaning that they are not even competing for the same market.

Someone who is living around Rome has to fly if he wants to reach southern France, Spain, Croatia, Montenegro, Albania and even Greece simply because the alternative is unattractive. Taking a train from Rome to Barcelona or Madrid simply makes no sense because you would have to make a huge detour.
Another example is what happens if someone wants to go from Milan to Sicily or Sardinia? Sure there are ferries but once again, taking a flight is much easier and more convenient.

Also, Lightsaber, maybe you should read on European history in order to understand why consolidation (both political and aviation) will never happen in Europe.

Consolidation in aviation is already happening such as IAG, LH group, AF/KLM, Ryanair, Norwegian, and Wizz. I've met few people who have read as much economics and history as I have. The required economies of scale force airlines to group for equipment purchases.

A good analogy is FIAT. They do well selling car engines and transmissions to many automakers who cannot justify developing on their own. Italian airlines will be competing without economy of scale.

I live in the Western USA where distances force air travel. But where is PSA and Western?

I agree Italy needs air transport. It is a question of who provides it after the failure of Alitalia. LH will naturally feed traffic into MUC. TK will feed traffic into IST. FR, Wizz, Easyjet, Norwegian, and Wizz will all compete for customers. This will not leave a window for a startup to grow to national airline status.

One example is Wizz consolidating with Indigo partners to cut equipment purchase costs, including aircraft. How is little Air Italy working to compete in that environment?

You used multiple examples of flights to other nations where existing EU airlines will pick up the slack.

Alitalia was Italy's last hope of a national airline. It is now a Zombie corporation.

Lightsaber


Reading history and understanding it are two different things. No offence, but if you would travel around Europe you would quickly realise that every single country is entirely different. Furthermore, you will also realise that you won’t have many problems communicating in English in northern Europe, you will struggle more and more the further south you go.

Air Italy will profit from the purchasing power of Qatar and might even benefit on certain services from IAG behind the scenes. They already have adopted the Avios scheme like all other IAG airlines.

My point is, Air Italy has a real chance. It will set up shop in the richest area of Italy, providing a “top-notch Qatar like service” while speaking Italian and most importantly serving Italian food! Being part of the Avios scheme and with a possible good number of future codeshare agreements with BA, Iberia and Qatar will position Air Italy very well. What’s here not to love for the local Italians and Swiss who would like to travel? People are connecting via the other hubs because they have not much choice. Once Air Italy’s network grows some of the PAX will choose the direct flight with an Italian speaking crew and Italian food rather than sitting in Munich for a 3-hour connection eating a Bavarian sausage. Again, that’s the cultural difference here, I cannot stress enough that Europe can never ever be compared to the US.
 
FatCat
Posts: 975
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 2:02 pm

Re: Air Italy - poised to become Italy's new flag carrier?

Fri Jun 08, 2018 1:31 pm

senatorflyer wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Blerg wrote:


Well, for starters look at both countries from a geographical point of view. Germany is flat and is exposed to the sea only partially in the north meaning airlines serving these markets have to compete with buses, cars, trains ... not only for international traffic but domestic one too.

Italy, on the other hand, is a mountainous peninsula, surrounded by water on three sides. Air travel is far more important in Italy than it is in Germany. On top of that, Alitalia seems to be concentrating on Rome while Air Italy is focusing on Milan. These two economic and cultural hubs are some 570 km apart meaning that they are not even competing for the same market.

Someone who is living around Rome has to fly if he wants to reach southern France, Spain, Croatia, Montenegro, Albania and even Greece simply because the alternative is unattractive. Taking a train from Rome to Barcelona or Madrid simply makes no sense because you would have to make a huge detour.
Another example is what happens if someone wants to go from Milan to Sicily or Sardinia? Sure there are ferries but once again, taking a flight is much easier and more convenient.

Also, Lightsaber, maybe you should read on European history in order to understand why consolidation (both political and aviation) will never happen in Europe.

Consolidation in aviation is already happening such as IAG, LH group, AF/KLM, Ryanair, Norwegian, and Wizz. I've met few people who have read as much economics and history as I have. The required economies of scale force airlines to group for equipment purchases.

A good analogy is FIAT. They do well selling car engines and transmissions to many automakers who cannot justify developing on their own. Italian airlines will be competing without economy of scale.

I live in the Western USA where distances force air travel. But where is PSA and Western?

I agree Italy needs air transport. It is a question of who provides it after the failure of Alitalia. LH will naturally feed traffic into MUC. TK will feed traffic into IST. FR, Wizz, Easyjet, Norwegian, and Wizz will all compete for customers. This will not leave a window for a startup to grow to national airline status.

One example is Wizz consolidating with Indigo partners to cut equipment purchase costs, including aircraft. How is little Air Italy working to compete in that environment?

You used multiple examples of flights to other nations where existing EU airlines will pick up the slack.

Alitalia was Italy's last hope of a national airline. It is now a Zombie corporation.

Lightsaber


Reading history and understanding it are two different things. No offence, but if you would travel around Europe you would quickly realise that every single country is entirely different. Furthermore, you will also realise that you won’t have many problems communicating in English in northern Europe, you will struggle more and more the further south you go.

Air Italy will profit from the purchasing power of Qatar and might even benefit on certain services from IAG behind the scenes. They already have adopted the Avios scheme like all other IAG airlines.

My point is, Air Italy has a real chance. It will set up shop in the richest area of Italy, providing a “top-notch Qatar like service” while speaking Italian and most importantly serving Italian food! Being part of the Avios scheme and with a possible good number of future codeshare agreements with BA, Iberia and Qatar will position Air Italy very well. What’s here not to love for the local Italians and Swiss who would like to travel? People are connecting via the other hubs because they have not much choice. Once Air Italy’s network grows some of the PAX will choose the direct flight with an Italian speaking crew and Italian food rather than sitting in Munich for a 3-hour connection eating a Bavarian sausage. Again, that’s the cultural difference here, I cannot stress enough that Europe can never ever be compared to the US.

@Senatorflyer: you maybe don't know but most of us cannot afford major airline ticket fares, and don't care about food or beverage or anything else on board. If someone starts giving discounted tickets for passengers traveling standing up instead of seating, will go sold-out in no time. When flying on my pockets, I always choose FR from PSA or VY from FLR. When flying on company's pockets, when possible, always prefer LH connecting in MUC or FRA from FLR. A major airline issuing tickets as a major airline should do has absolutely no chance of standing in Italy - I think 90% of the destinations whithin Europe are max 3 hrs of flight far from any airport in Italy - anyone can resist without problems without amenities for 3 hours.

@Lightsaber - completely agree on your point - about the question "who will provide after AZ" the simple answer is in today's numbers, as FR is the first carrier in Italy for traffic and routes.
Aeroplane flies high
Turns left, looks right
 
senatorflyer
Posts: 324
Joined: Tue Jul 24, 2012 10:57 am

Re: Air Italy - poised to become Italy's new flag carrier?

Fri Jun 08, 2018 2:30 pm

FatCat wrote:
senatorflyer wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Consolidation in aviation is already happening such as IAG, LH group, AF/KLM, Ryanair, Norwegian, and Wizz. I've met few people who have read as much economics and history as I have. The required economies of scale force airlines to group for equipment purchases.

A good analogy is FIAT. They do well selling car engines and transmissions to many automakers who cannot justify developing on their own. Italian airlines will be competing without economy of scale.

I live in the Western USA where distances force air travel. But where is PSA and Western?

I agree Italy needs air transport. It is a question of who provides it after the failure of Alitalia. LH will naturally feed traffic into MUC. TK will feed traffic into IST. FR, Wizz, Easyjet, Norwegian, and Wizz will all compete for customers. This will not leave a window for a startup to grow to national airline status.

One example is Wizz consolidating with Indigo partners to cut equipment purchase costs, including aircraft. How is little Air Italy working to compete in that environment?

You used multiple examples of flights to other nations where existing EU airlines will pick up the slack.

Alitalia was Italy's last hope of a national airline. It is now a Zombie corporation.

Lightsaber


Reading history and understanding it are two different things. No offence, but if you would travel around Europe you would quickly realise that every single country is entirely different. Furthermore, you will also realise that you won’t have many problems communicating in English in northern Europe, you will struggle more and more the further south you go.

Air Italy will profit from the purchasing power of Qatar and might even benefit on certain services from IAG behind the scenes. They already have adopted the Avios scheme like all other IAG airlines.

My point is, Air Italy has a real chance. It will set up shop in the richest area of Italy, providing a “top-notch Qatar like service” while speaking Italian and most importantly serving Italian food! Being part of the Avios scheme and with a possible good number of future codeshare agreements with BA, Iberia and Qatar will position Air Italy very well. What’s here not to love for the local Italians and Swiss who would like to travel? People are connecting via the other hubs because they have not much choice. Once Air Italy’s network grows some of the PAX will choose the direct flight with an Italian speaking crew and Italian food rather than sitting in Munich for a 3-hour connection eating a Bavarian sausage. Again, that’s the cultural difference here, I cannot stress enough that Europe can never ever be compared to the US.

@Senatorflyer: you maybe don't know but most of us cannot afford major airline ticket fares, and don't care about food or beverage or anything else on board. If someone starts giving discounted tickets for passengers traveling standing up instead of seating, will go sold-out in no time. When flying on my pockets, I always choose FR from PSA or VY from FLR. When flying on company's pockets, when possible, always prefer LH connecting in MUC or FRA from FLR. A major airline issuing tickets as a major airline should do has absolutely no chance of standing in Italy - I think 90% of the destinations whithin Europe are max 3 hrs of flight far from any airport in Italy - anyone can resist without problems without amenities for 3 hours.

@Lightsaber - completely agree on your point - about the question "who will provide after AZ" the simple answer is in today's numbers, as FR is the first carrier in Italy for traffic and routes.


Lots of people can only afford flying LCC around Europe. Even in Madrid, but it doesn’t stop Iberia for being there. However, Milan and its catchment area is an important business destination, the wealthiest part of Italy and also in terms of population pretty sizeable. Naturally it is the perfect place for a network airline in Italy. It doesn’t have to be a massive airline but surely it will have its place und could be very successful.
 
User avatar
vhtje
Posts: 1032
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 12:40 pm

Re: Air Italy - poised to become Italy's new flag carrier?

Fri Jun 08, 2018 2:42 pm

LupineChemist wrote:
Going off memory, so probably mistaken, but I believe it's at 15%


It's just over 20%, actually:

http://www.iairgroup.com/phoenix.zhtml? ... ingsshares
I only turn left when boarding aircraft. Well, mostly. All right, sometimes. OH OKAY - rarely.
 
spannacomo
Posts: 103
Joined: Wed May 30, 2018 5:38 pm

Re: Air Italy - poised to become Italy's new flag carrier?

Fri Jun 08, 2018 5:37 pm

senatorflyer wrote:

Reading history and understanding it are two different things. No offence, but if you would travel around Europe you would quickly realise that every single country is entirely different. Furthermore, you will also realise that you won’t have many problems communicating in English in northern Europe, you will struggle more and more the further south you go.

Air Italy will profit from the purchasing power of Qatar and might even benefit on certain services from IAG behind the scenes. They already have adopted the Avios scheme like all other IAG airlines.

My point is, Air Italy has a real chance. It will set up shop in the richest area of Italy, providing a “top-notch Qatar like service” while speaking Italian and most importantly serving Italian food! Being part of the Avios scheme and with a possible good number of future codeshare agreements with BA, Iberia and Qatar will position Air Italy very well. What’s here not to love for the local Italians and Swiss who would like to travel? People are connecting via the other hubs because they have not much choice. Once Air Italy’s network grows some of the PAX will choose the direct flight with an Italian speaking crew and Italian food rather than sitting in Munich for a 3-hour connection eating a Bavarian sausage. Again, that’s the cultural difference here, I cannot stress enough that Europe can never ever be compared to the US.

I agree... BTW today IG inaugurated their second TATL route, to MIA
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 18307
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Air Italy - poised to become Italy's new flag carrier?

Fri Jun 08, 2018 6:09 pm

senatorflyer wrote:
FatCat wrote:
senatorflyer wrote:

Reading history and understanding it are two different things. No offence, but if you would travel around Europe you would quickly realise that every single country is entirely different. Furthermore, you will also realise that you won’t have many problems communicating in English in northern Europe, you will struggle more and more the further south you go.

Air Italy will profit from the purchasing power of Qatar and might even benefit on certain services from IAG behind the scenes. They already have adopted the Avios scheme like all other IAG airlines.

My point is, Air Italy has a real chance. It will set up shop in the richest area of Italy, providing a “top-notch Qatar like service” while speaking Italian and most importantly serving Italian food! Being part of the Avios scheme and with a possible good number of future codeshare agreements with BA, Iberia and Qatar will position Air Italy very well. What’s here not to love for the local Italians and Swiss who would like to travel? People are connecting via the other hubs because they have not much choice. Once Air Italy’s network grows some of the PAX will choose the direct flight with an Italian speaking crew and Italian food rather than sitting in Munich for a 3-hour connection eating a Bavarian sausage. Again, that’s the cultural difference here, I cannot stress enough that Europe can never ever be compared to the US.

@Senatorflyer: you maybe don't know but most of us cannot afford major airline ticket fares, and don't care about food or beverage or anything else on board. If someone starts giving discounted tickets for passengers traveling standing up instead of seating, will go sold-out in no time. When flying on my pockets, I always choose FR from PSA or VY from FLR. When flying on company's pockets, when possible, always prefer LH connecting in MUC or FRA from FLR. A major airline issuing tickets as a major airline should do has absolutely no chance of standing in Italy - I think 90% of the destinations whithin Europe are max 3 hrs of flight far from any airport in Italy - anyone can resist without problems without amenities for 3 hours.

@Lightsaber - completely agree on your point - about the question "who will provide after AZ" the simple answer is in today's numbers, as FR is the first carrier in Italy for traffic and routes.


Lots of people can only afford flying LCC around Europe. Even in Madrid, but it doesn’t stop Iberia for being there. However, Milan and its catchment area is an important business destination, the wealthiest part of Italy and also in terms of population pretty sizeable. Naturally it is the perfect place for a network airline in Italy. It doesn’t have to be a massive airline but surely it will have its place und could be very successful.

The issue with Milan is three airports split the traffic.

I know many extreamely well to do people who fly LCCs to save their most precious asset: time. So no one airport will capture enough market share. That is why MUC is the hub for Italy to the rest of Europe.

Would it be good for Italy to have a new dominant domestic Airline? Yes. Italy just isn't enabling such an option. So it is hard to figure out why FR, U2, Wizz, and others won't fragment the market.

Without a high O&D hub with good yeilds, there is no filling long haul flights to Asia or North America.

As I was taught in high school health class, hope is not a method. Enable a global business or be sidelined. Sadly, the rest of the world only cares about their business. Since Italy is a high tourism market, this isn't an extremely high yeild O&D market where the home player has a devistating advantage.

Lightsaber
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
senatorflyer
Posts: 324
Joined: Tue Jul 24, 2012 10:57 am

Re: Air Italy - poised to become Italy's new flag carrier?

Fri Jun 08, 2018 6:20 pm

lightsaber wrote:
senatorflyer wrote:
FatCat wrote:
@Senatorflyer: you maybe don't know but most of us cannot afford major airline ticket fares, and don't care about food or beverage or anything else on board. If someone starts giving discounted tickets for passengers traveling standing up instead of seating, will go sold-out in no time. When flying on my pockets, I always choose FR from PSA or VY from FLR. When flying on company's pockets, when possible, always prefer LH connecting in MUC or FRA from FLR. A major airline issuing tickets as a major airline should do has absolutely no chance of standing in Italy - I think 90% of the destinations whithin Europe are max 3 hrs of flight far from any airport in Italy - anyone can resist without problems without amenities for 3 hours.

@Lightsaber - completely agree on your point - about the question "who will provide after AZ" the simple answer is in today's numbers, as FR is the first carrier in Italy for traffic and routes.


Lots of people can only afford flying LCC around Europe. Even in Madrid, but it doesn’t stop Iberia for being there. However, Milan and its catchment area is an important business destination, the wealthiest part of Italy and also in terms of population pretty sizeable. Naturally it is the perfect place for a network airline in Italy. It doesn’t have to be a massive airline but surely it will have its place und could be very successful.

The issue with Milan is three airports split the traffic.

I know many extreamely well to do people who fly LCCs to save their most precious asset: time. So no one airport will capture enough market share. That is why MUC is the hub for Italy to the rest of Europe.

Would it be good for Italy to have a new dominant domestic Airline? Yes. Italy just isn't enabling such an option. So it is hard to figure out why FR, U2, Wizz, and others won't fragment the market.

Without a high O&D hub with good yeilds, there is no filling long haul flights to Asia or North America.

As I was taught in high school health class, hope is not a method. Enable a global business or be sidelined. Sadly, the rest of the world only cares about their business. Since Italy is a high tourism market, this isn't an extremely high yeild O&D market where the home player has a devistating advantage.

Lightsaber


So are you saying that 31+ million PAX of Malpensa and Linate are not enough to support an airline? For your reference ZRH has 26 million PAX.
 
senatorflyer
Posts: 324
Joined: Tue Jul 24, 2012 10:57 am

Re: Air Italy - poised to become Italy's new flag carrier?

Fri Jun 08, 2018 6:22 pm

lightsaber wrote:
senatorflyer wrote:
FatCat wrote:
@Senatorflyer: you maybe don't know but most of us cannot afford major airline ticket fares, and don't care about food or beverage or anything else on board. If someone starts giving discounted tickets for passengers traveling standing up instead of seating, will go sold-out in no time. When flying on my pockets, I always choose FR from PSA or VY from FLR. When flying on company's pockets, when possible, always prefer LH connecting in MUC or FRA from FLR. A major airline issuing tickets as a major airline should do has absolutely no chance of standing in Italy - I think 90% of the destinations whithin Europe are max 3 hrs of flight far from any airport in Italy - anyone can resist without problems without amenities for 3 hours.

@Lightsaber - completely agree on your point - about the question "who will provide after AZ" the simple answer is in today's numbers, as FR is the first carrier in Italy for traffic and routes.


Lots of people can only afford flying LCC around Europe. Even in Madrid, but it doesn’t stop Iberia for being there. However, Milan and its catchment area is an important business destination, the wealthiest part of Italy and also in terms of population pretty sizeable. Naturally it is the perfect place for a network airline in Italy. It doesn’t have to be a massive airline but surely it will have its place und could be very successful.

The issue with Milan is three airports split the traffic.

I know many extreamely well to do people who fly LCCs to save their most precious asset: time. So no one airport will capture enough market share. That is why MUC is the hub for Italy to the rest of Europe.

Would it be good for Italy to have a new dominant domestic Airline? Yes. Italy just isn't enabling such an option. So it is hard to figure out why FR, U2, Wizz, and others won't fragment the market.

Without a high O&D hub with good yeilds, there is no filling long haul flights to Asia or North America.

As I was taught in high school health class, hope is not a method. Enable a global business or be sidelined. Sadly, the rest of the world only cares about their business. Since Italy is a high tourism market, this isn't an extremely high yeild O&D market where the home player has a devistating advantage.

Lightsaber


PS: You know Milan is the most important business centre in Italy?
 
azz767
Posts: 138
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2016 9:08 am

Re: Air Italy - poised to become Italy's new flag carrier?

Fri Jun 08, 2018 6:57 pm

I have to say having flown with AZA 2 weeks ago to Kiev from Heathrow via Rome for the champions league final, the service, the staff and the aircraft standard were fantastic and if you didn't know the situation you wouldn't know of their troubles. I would highly recommend them to anyone if they were asking and it's sad to see the state they find themselves in
 
spannacomo
Posts: 103
Joined: Wed May 30, 2018 5:38 pm

Re: Air Italy - poised to become Italy's new flag carrier?

Fri Jun 08, 2018 7:35 pm

lightsaber wrote:


As I was taught in high school health class, hope is not a method. Enable a global business or be sidelined. Sadly, the rest of the world only cares about their business. Since Italy is a high tourism market, this isn't an extremely high yeild O&D market where the home player has a devistating advantage.

Lightsaber

Do you think AlBaker is betting his millions on Air Italy out of hope? Maybe he did not attend the high school.
 
Begues
Posts: 88
Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2017 2:43 pm

Re: Air Italy - poised to become Italy's new flag carrier?

Fri Jun 08, 2018 8:07 pm

lightsaber wrote:
The issue with Milan is three airports split the traffic.


Washington DC also has the traffic split between 3 airports and nobody would call Charlotte the hub of Maryland, why would Italians go to Munich if an airline can establish a hub in Malpensa?
 
FatCat
Posts: 975
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 2:02 pm

Re: Air Italy - poised to become Italy's new flag carrier?

Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:49 am

Begues wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
The issue with Milan is three airports split the traffic.


Washington DC also has the traffic split between 3 airports and nobody would call Charlotte the hub of Maryland, why would Italians go to Munich if an airline can establish a hub in Malpensa?

You cannot compare EU air traffic with US air traffic.
Commuting by plane in the US is a well established thing. You've got shuttles to and from big hubs and small cities. US3 and US LCCs do have a very complete schedule all around the States. And you have smaller airlines filling the spaces left open by bigger ones. Distances are way bigger than in EU and, most important, train is rarely an option, while in the EU we have huge HST scheduling between local cities and even between Countries.
Munich, Frankfurt, London (LGW and LHR), Madrid, Amsterdam, Paris (CDG, ORY) are all about 2 to 2,5 hrs of flight from Italy - north (MXP, LIN) central (PSA) and south (PMO, NAP, FCO) and from those european hubs you can catch any flight you want anywhere in the World. All carriers offer smooth connections at competitive prices - my office just booked me FLR-ZRH-PVG at a very competitive fare, less than MXP-PVG if you summarize driving to MXP and leaving the car parked for 5 days...
Aeroplane flies high
Turns left, looks right
 
LupineChemist
Posts: 802
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2015 9:03 am

Re: Air Italy - poised to become Italy's new flag carrier?

Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:57 am

azz767 wrote:
I have to say having flown with AZA 2 weeks ago to Kiev from Heathrow via Rome for the champions league final, the service, the staff and the aircraft standard were fantastic and if you didn't know the situation you wouldn't know of their troubles. I would highly recommend them to anyone if they were asking and it's sad to see the state they find themselves in


I mean, failing airlines often have great service.

The inability to cut costs is often part of why they are failing.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos