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C010T3
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CGN shrinking again: back to the RRI idea at Garzweiler?

Mon Mar 12, 2018 1:37 am

With Eurowings set to shrink at CGN establishing itself at DUS after the demise of Air Berlin, it has become evident that CGN will never become really attractive as a primary airport, relegated to a reliever position. Air Traffic in North Rhine-Westphalia (NRW) seems to be doomed to never achieve its real potential.

Considering how CGN could be developed to a nature reserve and DUS could become a really attractive new neighbourhood, wouldn't their combination bring economic and environmental advantages?

Isn't it time to revive the plans for an airport at Garzweiler?
 
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LOWS
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Re: CGN shrinking again: back to the RRI idea at Garzweiler?

Mon Mar 12, 2018 2:02 am

Why? Southern NRW is well served by FRA, it's less than an hour from Köln to FRA.

In addition, much of DUS was rebuilt after the fire at considerable expense. I doubt there is little if any political will to solve an altogether insignificant problem (if it's a problem at all)
 
ual763
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Re: CGN shrinking again: back to the RRI idea at Garzweiler?

Mon Mar 12, 2018 2:03 am

At least Fedex and UPS have sizeable operations at CGN.
From flying to the NOTAM office
 
DUSZRH
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Re: CGN shrinking again: back to the RRI idea at Garzweiler?

Mon Mar 12, 2018 3:09 am

Garzweiler is to the wrong side of DUS/CGN to make it worthwhile.
 
C010T3
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Re: CGN shrinking again: back to the RRI idea at Garzweiler?

Mon Mar 12, 2018 3:17 am

DUSZRH wrote:
Garzweiler is to the wrong side of DUS/CGN to make it worthwhile.


Well, it's not really on the Schäl Sick for Cologne, but the idea is really about finding a place which could be a consensus even for environmentalists.
 
SCQ83
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Re: CGN shrinking again: back to the RRI idea at Garzweiler?

Mon Mar 12, 2018 8:11 am

It looks like a crazy idea to me.

Both CGN and DUS are very practical for both Cologne and Dusseldorf.

You say CGN "will never become really attractive as a primary airport". Maybe CGN will not have Emirates or Delta but for it has many short and medium-haul flights. Do you think people in Cologne would be happy to go to a much further airport to fly to London or Mallorca (which now they can do multiple times a day from CGN?). Or people in Dusseldorf to lose the convenience of having DUS so close? How closer is Garzweiler than DUS to Cologne?

IMO DUS and CGN work no different than airports in the London area, some of which are "specialised" in some carriers and type of traffic.
 
WIederling
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Re: CGN shrinking again: back to the RRI idea at Garzweiler?

Mon Mar 12, 2018 8:41 am

C010T3 wrote:
....... but the idea is really about finding a place which could be a consensus even for environmentalists.


"Fix a rape of fair Gaia with another rape?"
you don't understand the mental workings of environmentalists at all. :-)
Murphy is an optimist
 
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BartSimpson
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Re: CGN shrinking again: back to the RRI idea at Garzweiler?

Mon Mar 12, 2018 9:48 am

Do you want the aircraft to land in the hole? Must be some funny take-off experience...
(I have no idea how much it will take to fill the holes after they have been closed for exploration. My understanding was that they will be turned into artificial lakes.)

Addinally, the area is on the wrong side of the Ruhrgebiet which makes it way less convenient to get there.
 
WIederling
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Re: CGN shrinking again: back to the RRI idea at Garzweiler?

Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:21 am

BartSimpson wrote:
Do you want the aircraft to land in the hole? Must be some funny take-off experience...
(I have no idea how much it will take to fill the holes after they have been closed for exploration. My understanding was that they will be turned into artificial lakes.)


The resurrection of flying boats :-)
All Lakes Route : Hamburg Aussenalster, Garzweiler, Starnberger See, Bodensee, Wolfgangsee. :-)
Murphy is an optimist
 
mjoelnir
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Re: CGN shrinking again: back to the RRI idea at Garzweiler?

Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:32 am

I think we do not need to declare CGN dead as it is. It will never become the big hub for passenger traffic due to DUS and FRA being that near and one should not forget ESS and MGL either and HHN is also in that area. But both DUS and FRA are near capacity, so we will always see the flow over go to CGN. Their will also be considerable holiday charters going from CGN. 12 million passengers is quite a bit.
But last not least, CGN is quite big in freight. Nearly 10 times the volume of DUS and about 40 % of the volume at FRA. Cargo at CGN is up 6.6 % in 2017 on 2016. It is one of the few airports in Germany allowing 24 hour usage. CGN is about the same size as LUX regarding cargo.
 
PanHAM
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Re: CGN shrinking again: back to the RRI idea at Garzweiler?

Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:05 am

Just some remarks regarding cargo. The DUS volume is mainly due to WB belly capacity, also, theat volume is mainly local., LUX receives ther Tonnage from all over Europe because of CV. LEJ went over the Million threshold because of DHL, CGN profits from FX and UPS. FRA carries 2,2 mio tons as LHC hub, the sheer volume of WB and the trucking from all over Europe.

Now, to the Garzweiler Project. After the coal is finished, the site Needs to be refilled / renaturated anyhow. Why not doing that with an Airport? If the numbers continue like they do over the next 30 years, Germany will be short of runways where These are needed, It takes 30 to 30 years anyway for the first Jet to land there. Room enough for 4 independently operating runways is available
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
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BartSimpson
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Re: CGN shrinking again: back to the RRI idea at Garzweiler?

Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:31 am

PanHAM wrote:
Now, to the Garzweiler Project. After the coal is finished, the site Needs to be refilled / renaturated anyhow. Why not doing that with an Airport? If the numbers continue like they do over the next 30 years, Germany will be short of runways where These are needed, It takes 30 to 30 years anyway for the first Jet to land there. Room enough for 4 independently operating runways is available


You can't obviously operate the airport from the bottom of the site. It's up 180 m below surface. If you want to fill it up - good luck.

Additionally, nice gift to all the neighbours. First they had to endure surface mining for half their lifetime, then they will have to endure a big airport for second half?
 
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ro1960
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Re: CGN shrinking again: back to the RRI idea at Garzweiler?

Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:48 am

LOWS wrote:
Why? Southern NRW is well served by FRA, it's less than an hour from Köln to FRA.



That is city center to city center by ICE. Both cities are very large conurbation and getting to the HBF will dramatically increase the journey time for most travelers who don't live in the city. Like said before CGN at 12M pax with a steady growth in the last 5 years plus a very large freight operation does have a future.
Do not compensate for the lack of skills with a surplus of opinion.
 
vfw614
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Re: CGN shrinking again: back to the RRI idea at Garzweiler?

Mon Mar 12, 2018 12:03 pm

The coal pit is slated to become one of the largest seas in Germany (23 square kilometres) as it will be too difficult to fill the pit with anything else than water (and it will take 40 years to do so...). Not sure if enough space at the shores of the seas would be available to accommodate a large airport in addition to that.

Other than that, CGN is the 50th largest airport in Europe passenger-wise. If you factor in cargo, it probably is in the top 30 (other than a.nutters, for airport operators cargo planes and cargo traffic are important and appreciated as well).
 
TheSonntag
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Re: CGN shrinking again: back to the RRI idea at Garzweiler?

Mon Mar 12, 2018 12:40 pm

BartSimpson wrote:
Do you want the aircraft to land in the hole? Must be some funny take-off experience...
(I have no idea how much it will take to fill the holes after they have been closed for exploration. My understanding was that they will be turned into artificial lakes.)

Addinally, the area is on the wrong side of the Ruhrgebiet which makes it way less convenient to get there.


Well, Hambach will become a large lake. The pit is currently 400m deep (!) and will become up to 470m deep before it is finished. In theory, you could Transfer earth from Hambach to Garzweiler to fill it up, but then Hambach would be even larger as a hole.
 
r2rho
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Re: CGN shrinking again: back to the RRI idea at Garzweiler?

Mon Mar 12, 2018 12:45 pm

AFAIK for now, EW is just moving long-haul to DUS, not short haul. The short-haul hub at CGN will remain, unless I've missed something? EW has decided to chase high yield O&D from DUS rather than transfer traffic via CGN. But DUS is anyway restricted and does not have the capacity to accomodate the full EW short haul operation at CGN.

The capacity restrictions at DUS will guarantee that there will always be some overspill to CGN. Plus of course CGN traffic in its own right which should not be underestimated. And the big cargo operation.
However if DUS were allowed to operate its true capacity of 60 ops/hour rather than the current 45 for noise reasons, it would put a temporary dent on CGN growth. But that is a political hot potato. Even then, 60 ops does not allow full hub operations, 90 are needed for that. So DUS can never become a full hub, just a strong airport. Even without local Cologne traffic, there would be a case for CGN.

If I were to build a new airport now, it would be a well connected 2-parallel runway airport to the Northeast of the Ruhrgebiet, and shut down restricted DTM and out-of-the-way PAD. Maybe even FMO depending on exact location.
I would still keep the Garzweiler option open for the long term; it could be the last chance ever for a new hub airport in Germany/Benelux.

Why? Southern NRW is well served by FRA, it's less than an hour from Köln to FRA.

From Cologne central station to FRA, yes. Even then, only if you fly LH which guarantees the connection. Otherwise, for the same extra money you would pay for the -expensive- train, you might be better off taking a -guaranteed- connecting flight through another EU hub.
 
PanHAM
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Re: CGN shrinking again: back to the RRI idea at Garzweiler?

Mon Mar 12, 2018 1:45 pm

What you propose is the old "Drensteinfurt" Project frm the 6ßs or 70s.. Nice but not where the People are. DTM and PAD can easily handle the loads.

You are right that Garzeiler is the only realistic Option to fill the Need for a new Airport in a Region with 20 to 25 Mio Pax. It even Comes witha Cookie for NIMBYS if they Close down Geilenkirchen NATO AB
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
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cougar15
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Re: CGN shrinking again: back to the RRI idea at Garzweiler?

Mon Mar 12, 2018 2:02 pm

BartSimpson wrote:
Do you want the aircraft to land in the hole? Must be some funny take-off experience...
(I have no idea how much it will take to fill the holes after they have been closed for exploration. My understanding was that they will be turned into artificial lakes.)

Addinally, the area is on the wrong side of the Ruhrgebiet which makes it way less convenient to get there.



Say what? Lived in Kerpen (and surrounds) for 25 years, there are no massive holes in the ground when Rheinbraun moves on, where do these ideas come from ?
Still think both airports have a right to exist! CGN is convenient, friendly and uncomplicated, and if you can´t connect from there, you go to DUS.
That's the Pax perspective, let´s not even start talking freight and the recent & planned expenditure in that respect!
One Mega Airport for both (especially considering the DUS constraints...), I would be all for it, but I doubt the NRW State , and especially the local DUS & CGN Govt´s would NEVER come to an agreement on that one for obvious (to those who know both cities mentality about one another) reasons! Alaaf & Helau!
some you lose, others you can´t win!
 
LTenEleven
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Re: CGN shrinking again: back to the RRI idea at Garzweiler?

Mon Mar 12, 2018 5:17 pm

I understood that that at some point there was a obligation on RWE to re-vegetate the lands and return some of it to agriculture?

It is a huge opportunity for a proper NRW mega airport but it will never happen with the total lack of political foresight. Instead, there will be another useless artificial lake (probably closed off as some nature reserve so that people cannot even enjoy it despite industry being allow decades of total destruction).

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