HimalayanFlyer
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Re: Reports of crash in Kathmandu, Nepal

Mon Mar 12, 2018 5:08 pm

theaviator380 wrote:
ap305 wrote:
On the alleged atc recording do I hear a aircraft whizzing by the tower just before the crash? :eek: :eek: :eek:


Yessss, I heard it as well. wasn't sure what it was...usually no aircraft fly that close to actual tower?

The General Manager of the airport appears to back this up- quote from press conference here
http://kathmandupost.ekantipur.com/news ... h-tia.html
"The plane flew past just above the air-traffic control tower during its descent for landing. It touched down the ground just next to a parked plane and ploughed through a fence on the east side of the airport, and plunged into the lower ground,” said Chhetri. “Security personnel from Nepal Army and Nepal Police rushed for rescue operation due to timely fire control alert. Had the intensity of fire I saw continued for 10 more minutes, the situation would have been even more dreadful.”

Airport officials said the Bangla plane narrowly escaped from hitting the tail of Thai Airways plane parked at the airport
"

This suggests the plane was flying in a south-easterly direction, and flew across the runway if the reports are accurate
 
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DIRECTFLT
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Re: Reports of crash in Kathmandu, Nepal

Mon Mar 12, 2018 6:05 pm

IADCA wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
So... They approached from the wrong direction? Can anyone explain how this might happen?

I too want to know how this resulted in them being in a field in flames as well...


Some of it may be a problem of the mind processing what it expects to hear rather than what it is actually hearing - the bias in favor of confirmatory information. When you get a wind from 220 and are flying into an airport with a 02/20 runway, you're naturally going to expect 20 as it avoids a tailwind. The fact that "02" is a compass heading of 20 degrees makes the potential confusion even worse - wind from 220, a 02/20 runway, it's a lot of 2s and 20s. Especially if you're not a native English speaker, it can get even worse as you're processing the language less instinctively.

When people get put into stressful situations - like landing an airliner with a tailwind in an airport in a foreign country with very high terrain around - the slower reasoning faculties shut down and people go with their first instinctive judgment. The less experience someone has at a task, the worse this tendency is. It can even reach the point of disregarding information that should clearly indicate something is wrong, such as the fact that the tower said TWICE that they should be expecting to land with a tailwind. But if both pilots make the same cognitive error, there's nobody there to question it.

I don't fly airliners, but if I hear "wind from 220, seven knot tailwind component" and I'm flying a 200 heading, I believe I would immediately know something is wrong, but it's possible someone under a lot of stress could just look down, see a 0, a 2, and a 0 on your dial and not think much of it, including whether they're in the right order. This is exactly the kind of CRM/cognitive stress concern that is the nightmare of a lot of trainer types.


More stringent screening for dyslexia ???
Smoothest Ride so far ~ AA A300B4-600R ~~ Favorite Aviation Author ~ Robert J. Serling
 
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Jouhou
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Re: Reports of crash in Kathmandu, Nepal

Mon Mar 12, 2018 6:07 pm

HimalayanFlyer wrote:
theaviator380 wrote:
ap305 wrote:
On the alleged atc recording do I hear a aircraft whizzing by the tower just before the crash? :eek: :eek: :eek:


Yessss, I heard it as well. wasn't sure what it was...usually no aircraft fly that close to actual tower?

The General Manager of the airport appears to back this up- quote from press conference here
http://kathmandupost.ekantipur.com/news ... h-tia.html
"The plane flew past just above the air-traffic control tower during its descent for landing. It touched down the ground just next to a parked plane and ploughed through a fence on the east side of the airport, and plunged into the lower ground,” said Chhetri. “Security personnel from Nepal Army and Nepal Police rushed for rescue operation due to timely fire control alert. Had the intensity of fire I saw continued for 10 more minutes, the situation would have been even more dreadful.”

Airport officials said the Bangla plane narrowly escaped from hitting the tail of Thai Airways plane parked at the airport
"

This suggests the plane was flying in a south-easterly direction, and flew across the runway if the reports are accurate


So they straight up missed the runway altogether.
 
prebennorholm
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Re: Reports of crash in Kathmandu, Nepal

Mon Mar 12, 2018 6:11 pm

MalevTU134 wrote:
But before all that, it was one of SAS's problem children, with the corrosion problem in the MLGs.

Anybody knows if SAS repaired all of those Q400s, or just sold them on? Although you would think that both RJ and Augsburg Airways have good maintenance programmes...and no fools to buy just anything without knowing its history.

All Q400s worldwide were during 2007/2008 modified with MLG actuators and actuator rods of galvanically compatible steel alloys. Not just SAS planes, all Q400s.

Until modification, planes were inspected and re-inspected at sufficiently frequent intervals. All dictated by appropriate ADs from EASA and FAA.

All former SAS planes were grounded and handed back to Bombardier. They were modified before they were released to new operators.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
rbavfan
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Re: Reports of crash in Kathmandu, Nepal

Mon Mar 12, 2018 6:43 pm

MalevTU134 wrote:
LoganTheBogan wrote:
MalevTU134 wrote:
Which are the other two?


Challenger 604 with 11 people crashed in Iran mountainside.
Helicopter crashes into East River, New York killing 5 of the 6 on board.

Weren't those yesterday?


Technically due to the international date line yes. But all within 24 hours of each other.
 
RightAngle
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Re: Reports of crash in Kathmandu, Nepal

Mon Mar 12, 2018 7:14 pm

787Driver wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
eisenbach wrote:
If that ATC transscript of LiveATC.net is true .... that's just unbelievable!

Source: JADEC
Please have a look to for detailed information: http://www.jacdec.de/2018/03/12/2018-03 ... kathmandu/



Oh my goodness just tell them to go around, this can’t be real!


Yes and give them some vectors instead of messing around like this when they clearly are confused.


I wouldn't say they were messing around - ATC gave them what they wanted and thought it will fix it. The ATC were aware the pilots were confused.

The TOGA call could sadly have avoided the fiasco. Either one of the pilots on board could have made the call to start over too :(

To me the baffling factor is why did they not follow the original instruction to simply land on Rwy 02?
 
hz747300
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Re: Reports of crash in Kathmandu, Nepal

Mon Mar 12, 2018 7:37 pm

We did a helicopter flight to Base Camp a few years ago and all the fixed wing flights to Lukla were cancelled because the smog was so thick. We were flying for about 15-20 minutes before we cleared it. I wonder what the visibility was at the time? I agree that ILS would really help.
Keep on truckin'...
 
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United787
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Re: Reports of crash in Kathmandu, Nepal

Mon Mar 12, 2018 7:40 pm

At the end of the day, the confusion over which runway (02 or 20) didn't matter because they ended up "landing" perpendicular to both approaches. The pilots appear to have been completely disoriented.
 
astaz
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Re: Reports of crash in Kathmandu, Nepal

Mon Mar 12, 2018 8:06 pm

No one else has said it yet, but looking at the photos, the first thing that came to my mind was the Colgan crash. Doesn't look like a gear collapse to me, looks like a high energy impact. Not sure if they drove it straight in, or possibly stalled maneuvering far too low.
 
MalevTU134
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Re: Reports of crash in Kathmandu, Nepal

Mon Mar 12, 2018 8:21 pm

United787 wrote:
At the end of the day, the confusion over which runway (02 or 20) didn't matter because they ended up "landing" perpendicular to both approaches. The pilots appear to have been completely disoriented.

Agree, but shouldn't the tower have noticed that on the radar?

Mods, it's probably time to change the title, as it is now a confirmed crash of a US-Bangla Q400...
 
ExMilitaryEng
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Re: Reports of crash in Kathmandu, Nepal

Mon Mar 12, 2018 8:41 pm

astaz wrote:
No one else has said it yet, but looking at the photos, the first thing that came to my mind was the Colgan crash. Doesn't look like a gear collapse to me, looks like a high energy impact. Not sure if they drove it straight in, or possibly stalled maneuvering far too low.
Actually, I wonder who came up originally with this gear collapse scenario; it just never made any sense. (Whether from the ATC transcript, the final trajectory, or the crash site location). They never touched the strip.
Last edited by ExMilitaryEng on Mon Mar 12, 2018 9:01 pm, edited 3 times in total.
 
IADCA
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Re: Reports of crash in Kathmandu, Nepal

Mon Mar 12, 2018 8:47 pm

United787 wrote:
At the end of the day, the confusion over which runway (02 or 20) didn't matter because they ended up "landing" perpendicular to both approaches. The pilots appear to have been completely disoriented.


On the contrary, a very good way to get disoriented quickly is to attempt too late of a turn while confused and at low altitude while trying to also manage the radios and other critical flight phase items. I can rather easily see that turning into running out of altitude and ending up crashing on the airfield more or less due to chance.
 
MalevTU134
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Re: Reports of crash in Kathmandu, Nepal

Mon Mar 12, 2018 8:50 pm

ExMilitaryEng wrote:
astaz wrote:
No one else has said it yet, but looking at the photos, the first thing that came to my mind was the Colgan crash. Doesn't look like a gear collapse to me, looks like a high energy impact. Not sure if they drove it straight in, or possibly stalled maneuvering far too low.
Actually, I wonder who came up originally with this gear collapse scenario; it just never made any sense. (Whether from the ATC transcript, the crash site location or the flight trajectory). They never touched down / ended up near the strip.

I guess I did...before anything you write was known. Just based on wreckage on side of runway, and ex-SK Q400...
 
ExMilitaryEng
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Re: Reports of crash in Kathmandu, Nepal

Mon Mar 12, 2018 8:55 pm

MalevTU134 wrote:
I guess I did...before anything you write was known. Just based on wreckage on side of runway, and ex-SK Q400...
Ok then. I'll extinguish my flame thrower I was about to use...
 
Blankbarcode
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Re: Reports of crash in Kathmandu, Nepal

Mon Mar 12, 2018 9:14 pm

Basic guess from the track and wreckage, I wouldn't necessarily call this a high energy impact? It looks more like it touched down, ran over *really* rough ground, and broke/twisted up. Sadly, the pics seem to show that the right wing broke off and rested parallel to the rear tail section while on fire... if it blocked the exits and allowed smoke inside, was probably definitely a factor in the large amount of dead? Would be interesting to note where the survivors were or how they got out. Regardless, the responders might be the only reason why so many people got out, well done to them. RIP to the others of course.
 
govigov
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Re: Reports of crash in Kathmandu, Nepal

Mon Mar 12, 2018 9:33 pm

Sad, Another crash / accident in 2018. I think it is still too early for the reports from the surviving passengers and black boxes.

KTM should definitely have ILS systems especially when the lay of the land commands terrains and adverse weather conditions frequently.
 
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holcakker
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Re: Reports of crash in Kathmandu, Nepal

Mon Mar 12, 2018 9:58 pm

govigov wrote:
KTM should definitely have ILS systems especially when the lay of the land commands terrains and adverse weather conditions frequently.

They should have english speaking ATC staff as well.
 
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Crosswind
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Re: Reports of crash in Kathmandu, Nepal

Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:25 pm

Kathmandu doesn’t have an ILS because the 3 degree glide slope would go through a mountain. Fairly fundamental reason why they don’t have one.

The VOR 02 approach starts at 5.3 degrees, and only transitions to 3 degrees for the final segment. There is also an RNP approach for 02.

The approach is in any case a straight in one, the VOR is directly on the runway centreline. I don’t believe the non-precision approach looks like it had much bearing on the outcome here.

Regards
CROSSWIND
 
RightAngle
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Re: Reports of crash in Kathmandu, Nepal

Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:27 pm

holcakker wrote:
govigov wrote:
KTM should definitely have ILS systems especially when the lay of the land commands terrains and adverse weather conditions frequently.

They should have english speaking ATC staff as well.

What do you mean? Almost all the audio on ATC was in English. Don't think language barrier did not contribute to this accident.

Anyway I can translate some of the chatter in Nepali among the ATC after the pilot declares he is doing a right orbit:
… atc is process of clearing the traffic ...
ATC 1 - He seems confused between 02/20
ATC 2- Yes, he seems disoriented
ATC 1 - We should send him with radar vector to that place (rough translation). Visibility is not that good in the hills.
ATC 2 - Thank you sir (proceeds to inform the pilot that runway is vacation and other traffic is in hold)
 
trnswrld
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Re: Reports of crash in Kathmandu, Nepal

Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:12 pm

Good grief, listening that those ATC tapes is pretty shocking. No clue what anyone is saying or even accomplishing to be quite honest.
 
boacvc10
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Re: Reports of crash in Kathmandu, Nepal

Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:15 pm

ZeeZoo wrote:
Image


What in the world...


Ok, I am shocked, being from that region, and the country. S21X is my old ham radio callsign. So ...

I am curious how the ATC comms could have played a significant role in the incident: From https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2CIxzmqgu4 which may not be perfect (ATC comms are not perfect when heard from a ground based receiver) I heard:

(1:15in) ATC #1 ".... Thank you sir; Uh, BanglaStar two one one, Runway, Uh, Clear to Land, and Runway .. is vacated and either runway 02 or 20. [CROSSTALK] ... Vector.
BS 211: Ah. Sir, we would like to land (on) 20.
ATC: Ok Runway 20. Clear to Land. Wind 270 degrees 6 knots.

<but BS 211 requests to land on Runway 02 and ATC#1 doesn't object>
<but ATC #2 in other comms notes they are landing on Runway 20>

Confusion by BS211 is a possibility. What was ATC #2 doing? Was their confusion in the tower with arrivals from both directions being allowed? And is that SOP at the airfield ?

BOACVC10
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Nean1
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Re: Reports of crash in Kathmandu, Nepal

Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:05 am

The safety statistics of turboprops flying on regional flights is not very favorable. Even though they usually operate under more difficult conditions than regional jets, I wonder if there is nothing to improve? Is the pilot's workload excessive? A new conception of cabin and flight commands could not be thought of?
 
benjjk
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Re: Reports of crash in Kathmandu, Nepal

Tue Mar 13, 2018 1:58 am

Very sad news. I flew in and around KTM three times last month, the crews and airport staff were very professional, friendly and helpful.

The ATC recording isn't fun to listen to (the poor quality is just due to liveatc receivers, in the real world the communications would have been clear). It's apparent there was lots of confusion which is the last thing you want at an airport with such terrain, and thunderstorms in the area to top it off.

boacvc10 wrote:
ZeeZoo wrote:
Image


What in the world...



Confusion by BS211 is a possibility. What was ATC #2 doing? Was their confusion in the tower with arrivals from both directions being allowed? And is that SOP at the airfield ?

BOACVC10


I don't know about the airfield SOPs but every pilot has the right to refuse to land with a 7kt tailwind. They just need to tell ATC before making that call, and from what I can see that didn't happen when it should have.

Nean1 wrote:
The safety statistics of turboprops flying on regional flights is not very favorable. Even though they usually operate under more difficult conditions than regional jets, I wonder if there is nothing to improve? Is the pilot's workload excessive? A new conception of cabin and flight commands could not be thought of?


I haven't seen the statistics, but there are a lot more turboprops flying regional flights around the world than regional jets.
 
blandy62
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Re: Reports of crash in Kathmandu, Nepal

Tue Mar 13, 2018 3:10 am

NeBaNi wrote:
blandy62 wrote:
if the transcript is really, that's a bit unreal from both side.... May someone can correct me if I am wrong but I tough for international flight landing is always on 02 anyway. Landing on 20 would require to turn in the valley...

location of the crash site itself is rather stranger

It's not based on international/ domestic, but rather on the aircraft type I've seen everything up to ATR-72s land on the 20, not to dissimilar in size to the Q400. I've seen bigger aircraft take off in that direction (right up to the KE/TG 772s), but usually jets land on the 02. I say usually because I'm not sure what happens with the CRJ200s operated by Saurya Airlines.


yes I've seen local props landing on 20. But international traffic arrives from the south, so typicaly landing is on 02. I never saw

But now it looks they were more like approaching perpendicular the runway, as they flew over the tower and nearly missed the tail of the TG bird. So that explains the location of the crash site but not why they were heading in that direction
 
blandy62
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Re: Reports of crash in Kathmandu, Nepal

Tue Mar 13, 2018 3:11 am

blandy62 wrote:
NeBaNi wrote:
blandy62 wrote:
if the transcript is really, that's a bit unreal from both side.... May someone can correct me if I am wrong but I tough for international flight landing is always on 02 anyway. Landing on 20 would require to turn in the valley...

location of the crash site itself is rather stranger

It's not based on international/ domestic, but rather on the aircraft type I've seen everything up to ATR-72s land on the 20, not to dissimilar in size to the Q400. I've seen bigger aircraft take off in that direction (right up to the KE/TG 772s), but usually jets land on the 02. I say usually because I'm not sure what happens with the CRJ200s operated by Saurya Airlines.


yes I've seen local props landing on 20. But international traffic arrives from the south, so typicaly landing is on 02.

But now it looks they were more like approaching perpendicular the runway, as they flew over the tower and nearly missed the tail of the TG bird. So that explains the location of the crash site but not why they were heading in that direction
 
remcor
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Re: Reports of crash in Kathmandu, Nepal

Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:50 am

To me, it's hard to make the case that it's not the pilot(s) fault here.
1. The pilot in command has the ultimate responsibility for the safety of the aircraft right?
2. If the pilots were confused by the tower's instructions they should make make that clear, regroup/go-around and get it right. The tower seems to have seen/noticed their confusion and ultimately cleared them to land on any runway they wanted.
3. It doesn't seem to have mattered which runway they were cleared on or not, since they seem to have missed the runway altogether. Clear communication is good and fine but who cares if you can't fly the plane. That's one reason why there's 2 pilots in the cockpit! Fly the plane while the F/O deals with the tower.
 
BHXLOVER
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Re: Reports of crash in Kathmandu, Nepal

Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:58 am

Surely the tower must take some responsibility as well.

It is evident from the translations of talk between the controllers that they realised that the pilots were disorientated. Surely they should have ordered the pilots to go around and start from scratch.

Yet they gave a disoriented flight crew free reign to land on whatever runway they pleased and must have seen from the radar that the approach had gone completely pear shaped.

RIP
 
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longhauler
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Re: Reports of crash in Kathmandu, Nepal

Tue Mar 13, 2018 1:26 pm

It looked/sounded to me like the tower was getting frustrated as it became clear the pilots were very confused and disoriented. When the way was clear, the tower finally said (paraphrasing) the airport is clear, take your pick 02 or 20.

Sadly, when pilots lose situational awareness and become frustrated and irritated they forget the first golden rule of flying.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
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NeBaNi
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Re: Reports of crash in Kathmandu, Nepal

Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:09 pm

blandy62 wrote:
blandy62 wrote:
NeBaNi wrote:
It's not based on international/ domestic, but rather on the aircraft type I've seen everything up to ATR-72s land on the 20, not to dissimilar in size to the Q400. I've seen bigger aircraft take off in that direction (right up to the KE/TG 772s), but usually jets land on the 02. I say usually because I'm not sure what happens with the CRJ200s operated by Saurya Airlines.


yes I've seen local props landing on 20. But international traffic arrives from the south, so typicaly landing is on 02.

But now it looks they were more like approaching perpendicular the runway, as they flew over the tower and nearly missed the tail of the TG bird. So that explains the location of the crash site but not why they were heading in that direction

Not sure why you quoted yourself, but anyways... Before this flight, I'm sure sure there's been scheduled international turboprop service (by international carriers) in recent times. All other international service is on jets, usually the smallest being A320/ 737 size.
 
patineta89
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Re: Reports of crash in Kathmandu, Nepal

Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:42 pm

Crosswind wrote:
Kathmandu doesn’t have an ILS because the 3 degree glide slope would go through a mountain. Fairly fundamental reason why they don’t have one.

The VOR 02 approach starts at 5.3 degrees, and only transitions to 3 degrees for the final segment. There is also an RNP approach for 02.

The approach is in any case a straight in one, the VOR is directly on the runway centreline. I don’t believe the non-precision approach looks like it had much bearing on the outcome here.

Regards
CROSSWIND


Good info, didn't know about that.
Couldn't an adapted ILS approach (old Kai-Tak style) be installed instead in KTM, taking into consideration the local specificities?
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Revelation
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Re: Reports of crash in Kathmandu, Nepal

Tue Mar 13, 2018 3:35 pm

remcor wrote:
To me, it's hard to make the case that it's not the pilot(s) fault here.
1. The pilot in command has the ultimate responsibility for the safety of the aircraft right?
2. If the pilots were confused by the tower's instructions they should make make that clear, regroup/go-around and get it right. The tower seems to have seen/noticed their confusion and ultimately cleared them to land on any runway they wanted.
3. It doesn't seem to have mattered which runway they were cleared on or not, since they seem to have missed the runway altogether. Clear communication is good and fine but who cares if you can't fly the plane. That's one reason why there's 2 pilots in the cockpit! Fly the plane while the F/O deals with the tower.

BHXLOVER wrote:
Surely the tower must take some responsibility as well.

It is evident from the translations of talk between the controllers that they realised that the pilots were disorientated. Surely they should have ordered the pilots to go around and start from scratch.

Yet they gave a disoriented flight crew free reign to land on whatever runway they pleased and must have seen from the radar that the approach had gone completely pear shaped.

RIP

Interesting to see these back-to-back.

I'm not an expert. I've studied for and passed a PPL exam but that was years ago.

From what I recall, legally speaking remcor is right. Aviation rules/laws put the burden on the PIC (pilot in command). The services that ATC provides are pretty basic and pretty clear. They don't involve such things such as deciding the pilot is confused and ordering a go-around to re-group.

In the actual world, it would be nice if ATC could order a go-around just because the aircrew seems confused, but how can they know all the things going on in the cockpit?

For instance, maybe the crew is confused because of a lack of oxygen in the aircraft and really only have one chance to put the aircraft on the ground successfully.

Maybe someone more up-to-date could give us a run down of what ATC could do in a case where they perceive the crew is confused.
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Theseus
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Re: Reports of crash in Kathmandu, Nepal

Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:10 pm

Revelation wrote:
I'm not an expert. I've studied for and passed a PPL exam but that was years ago.

From what I recall, legally speaking remcor is right. Aviation rules/laws put the burden on the PIC (pilot in command). The services that ATC provides are pretty basic and pretty clear. They don't involve such things such as deciding the pilot is confused and ordering a go-around to re-group.

In the actual world, it would be nice if ATC could order a go-around just because the aircrew seems confused, but how can they know all the things going on in the cockpit?

For instance, maybe the crew is confused because of a lack of oxygen in the aircraft and really only have one chance to put the aircraft on the ground successfully.

Maybe someone more up-to-date could give us a run down of what ATC could do in a case where they perceive the crew is confused.


Not an expert either, and my recollection might be wrong, but was there not a recent case where the ATC at SFO ordered a plane ready to land on a taxiway (where several WB planes were holding) to go around ?
 
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Revelation
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Re: Reports of crash in Kathmandu, Nepal

Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:19 pm

Theseus wrote:
Revelation wrote:
I'm not an expert. I've studied for and passed a PPL exam but that was years ago.

From what I recall, legally speaking remcor is right. Aviation rules/laws put the burden on the PIC (pilot in command). The services that ATC provides are pretty basic and pretty clear. They don't involve such things such as deciding the pilot is confused and ordering a go-around to re-group.

In the actual world, it would be nice if ATC could order a go-around just because the aircrew seems confused, but how can they know all the things going on in the cockpit?

For instance, maybe the crew is confused because of a lack of oxygen in the aircraft and really only have one chance to put the aircraft on the ground successfully.

Maybe someone more up-to-date could give us a run down of what ATC could do in a case where they perceive the crew is confused.


Not an expert either, and my recollection might be wrong, but was there not a recent case where the ATC at SFO ordered a plane ready to land on a taxiway (where several WB planes were holding) to go around ?

Sure, go around can be ordered for collision avoidance.

The question here is can go-around be ordered because ATC perceives confusion rather than ATC has evidence of looming collision.
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: Reports of crash in Kathmandu, Nepal

Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:03 pm

[Forgive me if the following has already been covered; I wrote this almost 24 hours ago when the news was fresh, but have been unable to post it until now.]

I read mention that BS211 nearly hit the tail of a Thai a/c, but no mention of any others. What happened to this eye-witness report?;
a reliable eye witness wrote:
.. (he) saw the Bombardier aircraft coming in from the south, then rather than landing taking an unexpected steep turn to the left. According to the eye-witness, the aircraft came very close to the control tower while it did the turn, then flew over a Buddha Air ATR and a Yeti Airlines Jetstream and went out of sight. "In a couple of seconds I saw a pall of smoke rise from the other side of the runway."


Several Nepali pilots in the air at the time are heard warning the ATC in Nepali language that the Bangladeshi pilot sounded disoriented and to keep away from the traffic.
“He might hit a mountain there is poor visibility all around,” one pilot is heard on the ATC radio saying.

Regarding visibility at the time; see the picture below, showing visibility at the airport itself seems ok, but the surrounding mountains are almost certainly shrouded in mist & cloud.
Note that VT-JTA may have inadvertently played a role in this event (details further down)
Image

Regarding VT-JTA;
I note that as they began their descents into KTM, BS211 was around 20km behind 9W266 (Jet Air B738 VT-JTA as seen in the photo), with both a/c clearly following a heading of 020.
Presumably the B738 was clearly visible in front of BS211 (until it was lost in mist at lower levels?), and likewise they would have heard ATC talking to 9W266, clearing it to approach/land on runway 02. In my head, this has set the scene for a routine follow-in approach. What went wrong?

9W266 landed approx. 10 minutes ahead of BS211 crashing.
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flyingturtle
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Re: Reports of crash in Kathmandu, Nepal

Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:51 pm

[quote="SheikhDjibouti"][/quote]


So VT-JTA, the 737 in the picture, is the last plane to land before the one that crashed? The moment the wreck is burning, they're already (or: still) unloading VT-JTA?

How much time did the pilots spend to sort out the approach?


David
Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: Reports of crash in Kathmandu, Nepal

Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:17 pm

flyingturtle wrote:
So VT-JTA, the 737 in the picture, is the last plane to land before the one that crashed? The moment the wreck is burning, they're already (or: still) unloading VT-JTA?

How much time did the pilots spend to sort out the approach?
David

Fair question I suppose. I don't have a time-stamp for the picture, so I just used my eyes.

What else do you see in the picture?
I see hundreds of people making their way across the airfield on foot. That didn't start to happen until after the crash. Some of those people have made considerable progress towards the crash site, so time has clearly passed when that photo was taken.
And VT-JTA is a typical ULCC with a 60 minute turnaround; what would you expect to see 25-30 minutes after this 737 had landed? They are probably still hopeful that the airport will not be closed and they can get back to Mumbai without delay.

As far as I can tell, BS211 hit the deck 10-12 minutes after VT-JTA landed, after a straight in approach with a small detour around the control tower. I don't have precise timing for that element either, but until somebody tells me I've got it wrong, that's what I'm going with.

But I don't know for sure; I'm only seeing the same image that you can see.
I promised myself I'd leave before the party turned ugly. I would quit at 1000 !
Here I am stuck at 994; each time I'm tempted to post, I find myself wondering who will even read it / what is the point?
Or maybe I've just got nothing left to say.
 
remcor
Posts: 309
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Re: Reports of crash in Kathmandu, Nepal

Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:35 am

SheikhDjibouti wrote:

Several Nepali pilots in the air at the time are heard warning the ATC in Nepali language that the Bangladeshi pilot sounded disoriented and to keep away from the traffic.
“He might hit a mountain there is poor visibility all around,” one pilot is heard on the ATC radio saying.
.


I wonder if alcohol/substances may have played a role in this. I know Bangladesh is a Muslim country and they shouldn't drink etc, but people tend to do stuff they shouldn't.
 
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Jouhou
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Re: Reports of crash in Kathmandu, Nepal

Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:09 am

remcor wrote:
SheikhDjibouti wrote:

Several Nepali pilots in the air at the time are heard warning the ATC in Nepali language that the Bangladeshi pilot sounded disoriented and to keep away from the traffic.
“He might hit a mountain there is poor visibility all around,” one pilot is heard on the ATC radio saying.
.


I wonder if alcohol/substances may have played a role in this. I know Bangladesh is a Muslim country and they shouldn't drink etc, but people tend to do stuff they shouldn't.


A diabetic experiencing low blood sugar will also appear/sound intoxicated. Let's not assume the worst of the pilot, as they obviously didn't want this outcome.
 
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flyingphil
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Re: Reports of crash in Kathmandu, Nepal

Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:10 am

My first thoughts on hearing the audio was hypoxia - lack of oxygen - for the pilots.. maybe that would explain the disorientation?
 
cat3appr50
Posts: 124
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Re: Reports of crash in Kathmandu, Nepal

Wed Mar 14, 2018 4:08 pm

The reported TC Radio Transcript Kathmandu-Tower with BS211, and my comments (in parenthesis) regarding same. This overall communication stream IMO was one of the most confusing and frightening recording in many years. God comfort the families and loved ones of those who lost their lives in this accident:

TC Radio Transcript Kathmandu-Tower:
(Note: this transcript is unofficial and can contain inadequate data)
BS211(female voice): „Good day, BanglaStar211 final runway 02.”
KTM-Tower: „BanglaStar211, tower. Wind 230 degrees eight knots, tailwind component seven knots, continue approach.“
BS211(female voice): „Continue approach BanglaStar 211.“ (BS211 Did not request a different Rwy due to 7 knot tailwind, Rwy 02 was obviously acceptable to them)
..
KTM-Tower: „BanglaStar211, wind 220 degrees seven knots, tailwind component six knots, runway 02 you’re cleared to land.“
BS211(female voice): „Cleared to land, BanglaStar 211.“ (Confirmation from BS211 that Rwy 02 landing was fine)
..
KTM-Tower: „BanglaStar211, tower?“
BS211(female voice): „Go ahead, sir.“
BS211(male voice): „Go ahead, mam‘.“
KTM-Tower: „BanglaStar211, you were given a landing clearance to runway 02.“ (BS211 must have changed flight path for some reason, triggering ATC to note/reinforce that they were given a landing clearance for Rwy 02).
BS211(male voice): „Affirmative, mam.“ (After ATC noting Rwy 02 clearance, BS211 confirmed once again and accepted Rwy 02, so was still their intention. What was going on with their flight path?)
KTM-Tower: „You are going towards runway 20.“ (BS211, after twice accepting a clearance to land Rwy 02 they are now heading towards Rwy 20. Why did BS211 break off the Rwy 02 final approach course and head for Rwy 20? There were no WX issues, no noted equipment issues, seemingly calm interchange with ATC, and yet they are heading for an unassigned runway, and not the one they twice accepted landing on).
BS211(male voice): „..(garbled transmission)..to runway 02.“ (Did BS211 (“to runway 02”) mean that they were correcting ATC and they thought they were actually heading for Rwy 2?)
KTM-Tower (different voice): „…211, runway 20, cleared to land.“ (ATC now clears BS211 to land Rwy 20, maybe out of complete frustration)
BS211(male voice): „..cleared to land..(unintelligible).“ (by implication BS211 accepted the clearance to now land Rwy 20)
..
KTM-Tower (different voice): „BanglaStar211, Kathmandu Tower“
BS211(male voice): „Go ahead“
KTM-Tower (different voice): „BanglaStar211, request your intentions.“ (ATC just cleared BS211 to land Rwy 20, and now they are requesting intentions? IMO they probably should have communicated this earlier in the evolution of this BS211 communication.)
BS211(male voice): „..(unintelligible)..“
KTM-Tower (different voice): “ BanglaStar211, that would be VFR.“
BS211(male voice): „Affirmative“
KTM-Tower (different voice): “ 211 join a ri…ehm..right downwind to runway 20.“
BS211(male voice): „Copied.“
KTM-Tower (different voice): “ …right downwind runway 02..“ (Beyond comprehension, after ATC just gave them the clearance to land Rwy 20 via right downwind VFR, now ATC tells them “right downwind for Rwy 02, and BS211 accepts, why?)
..
Tower clears another aircraft (Buddha282) to land on runway 02.
..
KTM-Tower: „And BanglaStar 211, traffic at final eh..runway 02 at two miles, report sighting.“
BS211(male voice): „Copied, Sir. We’ll be at (..) runway 02.“
KTM-Tower: „Confirm you’re tracking towards runway 20 ?“ (ATC just gave them the clearance for right downwind to land Rwy 02, now ATC asks for confirmation that they are tracking towards Rwy 20. Assume because BS211 was now actually tracking towards Rwy 20 for some reason, otherwise a very strange communication by ATC)
BS211(male voice): „Affirmative.“ (BS211 affirms that they really are tracking towards Rwy 20 after they just accepted a clearance for R downwind to Rwy 02?)
KTM-Tower: „Right..left, right downwind runway 02, I say again Bangla 212 traffic is on final runway 02 landing on runway 02.“ (ATC seemingly asserts that BS211 is to now land Rwy02 even though BS211 just affirmed they are tracking to Rwy 20)
BS211(male voice): „Copied Sir“
..
Tower confirmed landing clearance for the other aircraft (Buddha282) to land on runway 02.
..
KTM-Tower: „211 I say it again, do not proceed towards runway 20. Cleared to hold at your current position.“
BS211(male voice): „Okay, we’re making an orbit to the right, copied ?“
BS211(male voice): „Tower, 211, making a right holding, right holding for runway 02.“
KTM-Tower: „Okay that’s good but do not land. Traffic is on short final runway 02.“
BS211(male voice): „We have that, Sir copied. (unintelligible) we’re cleared to land“ (BS211 just defied an acceptance of R holding for Rwy 02 only, and now say they are cleared to land Rwy 02)
..
KTM-Tower: „..BanglaStar211, runway..eh..cleared to land. Runway is vacated, either runway 02 or 20 ?“ (ATC seemingly throws their hands in the air and notes essentially land at either Rwy as Rwy 02/20 is vacated)
BS211(male voice): „Yes Sir, we like to land on 20.“ (BS211 requests to land Rwy 20 now)
KTM-Tower: „Okay runway 20, cleared to land. Wind is 270 degrees, six knots.“ (ATC clears BS211 to land Rwy 20)
BS211(male voice): „260 copied, cleared to land.“
KTM-Tower: „BanglaStar211, confirm you have the runway in sight?“
BS211(male voice): „Negative, Sir.“
KTM-Tower: „BanglaStar211, turn right and ah..you have the runway, confirm you have the runway not in sight, yet ?“
BS211(male voice): „Affirmative, we have (..) runway in sight. Requesting clear to land, Sir.“ (BS211 affirms they have Rwy 20 in sight, the one ATC cleared them to land on)
KTM-Tower: „And BanglaStar211, cleared to land.“ (i.e. Cleared to land Rwy 20 per last instruction)
BS211(male voice): „Cleared to land runway 02, BanglaStar212.“ (BS211 accepted the clearance to land Rwy 20, says they had Rwy 20 in sight, and now note they are cleared to land Rwy 02, and now misspeak their flight number as 212 instead of 211 as well)
KTM-Tower: „Roger, runway 02, cleared to land, BanglaStar211.“ (and ATC strangely accepts BS211 to land Rwy 02 when they just cleared them to land Rwy 20)
..
BS211(male voice): „..sir, are we cleared to land ?“ (Beyond comprehension BS211 just accepted a very confusing clearance to land Rwy 02 and now they are asking if they are cleared to land Rwy 02)
KTM-Tower: „BanglaStar211, I say again..turn… (yelling in background).“ (What was their flight path and altitude and specific location when ATC issued this emergency order to turn? Recall BS211 said they had Rwy 20 in sight to land on).
..
(end of BS211 transmissions)
 
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NeBaNi
Posts: 319
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Re: Reports of crash in Kathmandu, Nepal

Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:00 pm

cat3appr50 wrote:
..
Tower clears another aircraft (Buddha282) to land on runway 02.
..
KTM-Tower: „And BanglaStar 211, traffic at final eh..runway 02 at two miles, report sighting.
BS211(male voice): „Copied, Sir. We’ll be at (..) runway 02.“
KTM-Tower: „Confirm you’re tracking towards runway 20 ?“ (ATC just gave them the clearance for right downwind to land Rwy 02, now ATC asks for confirmation that they are tracking towards Rwy 20. Assume because BS211 was now actually tracking towards Rwy 20 for some reason, otherwise a very strange communication by ATC)
BS211(male voice): „Affirmative.“ (BS211 affirms that they really are tracking towards Rwy 20 after they just accepted a clearance for R downwind to Rwy 02?)
KTM-Tower: „Right..left, right downwind runway 02, I say again Bangla 212 traffic is on final runway 02 landing on runway 02.“ (ATC seemingly asserts that BS211 is to now land Rwy02 even though BS211 just affirmed they are tracking to Rwy 20)
BS211(male voice): „Copied Sir“
..
Tower confirmed landing clearance for the other aircraft (Buddha282) to land on runway 02.
..

Not an expert on this by any means, but to me, it sounds like the Tower asking BS211 if they saw the traffic at runway 02, and then informing them that there is traffic on final at runway 02, which is landing on runway 02. Some commas would have explained the meaning better, but of course this is a transcript.
 
asuflyer
Posts: 283
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2007 12:48 pm

Re: Reports of crash in Kathmandu, Nepal

Thu Mar 15, 2018 2:48 am

The video below shows the aircraft very low before the crash. It is unclear whether this is a go-around or not but the aircraft appears unstable at the beginning of the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBgcC3OlqfQ
 
blandy62
Posts: 156
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Re: Reports of crash in Kathmandu, Nepal

Thu Mar 15, 2018 5:02 am

According to the caption on the video, it was taken in Gagalphedi. This is NE of the airport

that would mean they flew north past the airport, up to the north part of the valley, turned around and missed 20 while coming back heading south.

Some people reported they saw them nearly missing the mountains at the north end of Katmandu valley, so that's also consistent.
 
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Jouhou
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Re: Reports of crash in Kathmandu, Nepal

Thu Mar 15, 2018 7:47 am

https://youtu.be/Nss-4laxKYc

Final moments...

Is this even real footage? The scenery doesn't look right.
 
Blankbarcode
Posts: 64
Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2016 1:10 am

Re: Reports of crash in Kathmandu, Nepal

Thu Mar 15, 2018 9:43 am

Jouhou wrote:
https://youtu.be/Nss-4laxKYc

Final moments...

Is this even real footage? The scenery doesn't look right.


This doesn't seem correct:
-RT logo but isn't featured on the RT site
-Horizontal stabilizer/elevator not in the correct spot
-Anhedral wings
-Scenery not consistent

Looks something like an Antonov I believe.

EDIT:
It's from last year
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzzkTm4USWk
 
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Jouhou
Posts: 981
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Re: Reports of crash in Kathmandu, Nepal

Thu Mar 15, 2018 10:02 am

Blankbarcode wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
https://youtu.be/Nss-4laxKYc

Final moments...

Is this even real footage? The scenery doesn't look right.


This doesn't seem correct:
-RT logo but isn't featured on the RT site
-Horizontal stabilizer/elevator not in the correct spot
-Anhedral wings
-Scenery not consistent

Looks something like an Antonov I believe.

EDIT:
It's from last year
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzzkTm4USWk


Thanks, thought it looked too flat and green.

...and the commentary a bit too russian. Like looking out at it, throwing out an explative, continue on.
 
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SheikhDjibouti
Posts: 995
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Re: Reports of crash in Kathmandu, Nepal

Thu Mar 15, 2018 2:07 pm

asuflyer wrote:
The video below shows the aircraft very low before the crash. It is unclear whether this is a go-around or not but the aircraft appears unstable at the beginning of the video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBgcC3OlqfQ

For clarification
The first video identified above does indeed show a DHC-8-400 in Nepal.
The news channel supporting it claims they have local witness statements confirming this was BS211 some minutes before it crashed, showing it climbing and turning aggressively to avoid the surrounding mountains. A cynical viewpoint might be that this could equally be footage of a similar flight (i.e. on another occasion) that somebody fetched out because it could be worth a $ or two. I really cannot comment.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBgcC3OlqfQ

The second video is definitely a Russian AF An-26, with an anhedral wing and low set tail. Anybody confusing that a/c with a Dash-8 should be sent to Specsavers for a new prescription..... :lol:
https://youtu.be/Nss-4laxKYc

Both videos claim to show the crash of BS211, but that is just youtu.be. :banghead:
I promised myself I'd leave before the party turned ugly. I would quit at 1000 !
Here I am stuck at 994; each time I'm tempted to post, I find myself wondering who will even read it / what is the point?
Or maybe I've just got nothing left to say.
 
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NeBaNi
Posts: 319
Joined: Sun Dec 20, 2009 10:45 am

Re: Reports of crash in Kathmandu, Nepal

Thu Mar 15, 2018 3:48 pm

asuflyer wrote:
The video below shows the aircraft very low before the crash. It is unclear whether this is a go-around or not but the aircraft appears unstable at the beginning of the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBgcC3OlqfQ

It seems to be the aircraft, and the people in the video are speaking Nepali. Snippets of what they're saying, translated:
"It had already turned its lights on"
"Never seen this plane before..." [I assume by plane they mean the airline/livery, hasn't been long since US Bangla started flying to KTM]
 
blandy62
Posts: 156
Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2016 12:47 am

Re: Reports of crash in Kathmandu, Nepal

Fri Mar 16, 2018 6:06 am

I think the main question at this point is what prompted the pilot to stop his approach on 02 and try to circle to 20 against his clearance and apparently without announcing it to the tower. The Buddha that was trailing it made it without problem to 02, so looks like everything was fine.
 
gf262
Posts: 1
Joined: Tue May 13, 2014 6:12 pm

Re: Reports of crash in Kathmandu, Nepal

Fri Mar 16, 2018 3:40 pm

As a frequent flyer into KTM and an aviation enthousiast (without real knowledge tough) I would like to contribute as follow.

As I spent quite some time living in the area north of RNW20 I know that only domestic operators use that runway, up to ATR-72. That means that a DH8D is a able to land overthere. But it is a visual approach (VFR). I have never seen any international operator using RNW20, no matter which aircraft. Maybe the domestic operators uses RNW20 because to are really well known with VFR-approaches in Nepal.

As far as I know only the captain is allowed flying the plane when flying into KTM. The F/O takes care of communication with tower and deals with the altitude and decend angle. In orde to make sure the captain can concentrate on flying the plane. During communication with the tower suddenly the captain (male voice) can be heard and takes over communication. And that is just the one thing he should not do. Just fly the plane. In case there is misunderstanding he should discontinue and start all over again with the approach. Instead he continues and it seems he gets lost.

Also see this article in the Nepali Times, an highly regarded weekly magazine in Nepal. It gives a good summary on what might have happend and a clear view of the flight path:https://www.nepalitimes.com/banner/20-by-02/

Also interesting to know: Apparently, this was Capt Sultan’s fifth flight of the day, and he had just sent in his resignation to the US-Bangla management in order to join a Gulf airline.

And the end: anyone knew that the Voice Communication Control System (VCCS) at KTM is already more than two month dysfunctional? After VCCS failure, the ATC communications are being carried out through recently procured backup portable VHF radio transceivers at TIA as the primary as well as secondary frequencies for aerodrome control service at the control tower as Air Traffic Controller (ATC) often get criticisms from the aircraft crew.https://www.aviationnepal.com/voice-communication-control-system-of-tia-still-dysfunctional/

Maybe it contributed tot the bad communications between tower and cockpit crew?

Any toughts? Greetings, Pieter

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