How did PanAm feed its network?

IFlyVeryLittle · Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:03 pm

If Im not mistaken, Pan Am in its heyday didn't operate much of a domestic network (it it did at all). That said, how did it feed its international network. I recall flying Pan Am out of Dulles and Miami in the 60s and early 70s but always as a point of origin, not a connection. So my question: how did Pan Am match up with domestic airlines to make it all work? Thanks.

planeguy727 · Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:04 pm

As I recall it, they fed through government contracts and being the flag carrier as well as interline traffic from other, mostly domestic, carriers.

For example, when we went to Australia from S. Florida we were on AA MIA-DFW-HNL then PA HNL-AKL-SYD.

I also recall flying DL and EA to meet up with PA flights in JFK and IAD

SpaceshipDC10 · Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:05 pm

Until January 8, 1980, Pan Am had no domestic network and was an international airline. That changed following their too high priced acquisition of National Airlines. Before deregulation, most U.S. airlines were domestic only.

william · Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:12 pm

Pan AM did not have a good feed. And before deregulation, airlines did not operate the same as they do today.

LAXintl · Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:33 pm

Regional and large national carriers like AA, DL, UA which had very minimal international activity happily fed traffic to carriers like Pan Am and TWA.

Also remember domestic fares were largely fixed by the government as well so it was easy fare proration of applicable segment revenue.

CairnterriAIR · Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:40 pm

Domestic and local carriers fed into Pan Am. There were few interline run through services in the ‘60’s. My mother was a Braniff flight attendant and she often would work flights that flew DAL-IAD-LHR or similar. The domestic segment was a Braniff flight with Braniff crews...operated with Pan Am planes. PA crews took over on the international segment. Pretty much a run through or early Code share.

EvanWSFO · Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:51 pm

You really had to fly whatever airline you could to get to a PA gateway. Even their "round-the-world" service wasn't totally around the world if flying through SFO/LAX. The only way you could do it was NRT-FAI-JFK. Then Pan am committed slow suicide by acquiring National, which did very little if anything to help international feed.

airbazar · Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:12 pm

IFlyVeryLittle wrote:
If Im not mistaken, Pan Am in its heyday didn't operate much of a domestic network (it it did at all). That said, how did it feed its international network. I recall flying Pan Am out of Dulles and Miami in the 60s and early 70s but always as a point of origin, not a connection. So my question: how did Pan Am match up with domestic airlines to make it all work? Thanks.

They didn't which is the single biggest reason why they went out of business.

TC957 · Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:30 pm

At LHR, they operated some 727's on flights into Europe to feed the TTL services. TWA did this as well.

SenrabDivad · Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:40 pm

TC957 wrote:
At LHR, they operated some 727's on flights into Europe to feed the TTL services. TWA did this as well.

PA103 being a notable example. B727 service FRA-LHR, then switched to the B747 for the ill-fated LHR-JFK-(DTW) legs.

Ionosphere · Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:42 pm

This was the main reason they bought National. They wanted domestic feed. They had agreements with smaller airlines to feed them over the years. Empire and Allegheny were some of the feeders.

Channex757 · Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:46 pm

Once again a lack of outside vision.

Pan Am was a Global Brand. They had long established routes across the world and a strong sales network PA didn't exist on just whatever feeder traffic came its way, they used their brand to feed the network from outside the USA. Passengers would book with Pan Am PRECISELY because it was Pan Am and that generated plenty of revenue in foreign currency to fill the seats.

TWA was the same. Both also benefited post-war from the German traffic rights mentioned above, and of course those old worldwide agreements for Empire Routes type multi-stop flights.

There must be a huge amount of these lapsed rights still out there.

KLDC10 · Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:51 pm

Pan Am was a huge beneficiary of airline regulation and had little to no competition from other American carriers in the international market and not much of a domestic route network to speak of. That meant that, when the industry was deregulated, Pan Am was placed at a huge competitive disadvantage. Other airlines had the domestic route network necessary to feed and sustain international routes (the perfect starting point from which to build an international network), while Pan Am had a huge international network with no domestic network to feed it. Prior to deregulation and other airlines beginning to foray into the international market, it wasn't uncommon to buy an international ticket on Pan Am from New York to London, but to arrive in New York from, say, Buffalo, on an American Airlines aircraft.

When the acquisition of National Airlines by Pan Am was completed in 1980, Pan Am hoped to be able to simply merge the two networks together and solve their problems. Unfortunately, integrating the two airlines proved more difficult than anticipated, coupled with the fact that Pan Am paid far too much to take over National. It's arguable that that time and money would have been better spent developing their own domestic route network in the newly deregulated market.

putthoff · Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:03 pm

william wrote:

Pan AM did not have a good feed. And before deregulation, airlines did not operate the same as they do today.

Nashville, Austin, Syracuse, Charlotte--how strange are those cities for a non-domestic airline? How did that happen?

jfklganyc · Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:09 pm

It was bizzare. They just needed the hub DL has today at JFK and they would have had their feed.

They didnt need to be the largest domestic carrier, they just needed to feed their Euro ops at JFK. But alas

whatusaid · Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:13 pm

Pan Am had a venture with Pacific Express on the West Coast in the last months of PE’s existence.

FlyPeoria · Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:15 pm

putthoff wrote:
william wrote:

Pan AM did not have a good feed. And before deregulation, airlines did not operate the same as they do today.

Nashville, Austin, Syracuse, Charlotte--how strange are those cities for a non-domestic airline? How did that happen?

This route map probably dates to the mid-or late-1980s, after deregulation (October 1978) and after absorbing National Airlines. In the 1980s, Pan Am added a number of U. S. cities as feeder routes to the JFK and MIA international hubs.

lavalampluva · Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:33 pm

Before PA started it's own domestic service they counted primarily on pax living in it's hub cities (JFK, MIA, SFO) and other domestic airlines serving those hubs.

OzarkD9S · Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:41 pm

SpaceshipDC10 wrote:

Until January 8, 1980, Pan Am had no domestic network and was an international airline. That changed following their too high priced acquisition of National Airlines. Before deregulation, most U.S. airlines were domestic only.

http://www.departedflights.com/PA042979.html

Well, they had a few. Not many, mostly continuations of International legs: JFK-LAX/SFO/IAH, IAH-SFO/MIA,JFK-IAD, LAX-SFO and of course the Hawaiian routes. But I wouldn't call it a domestic "network" either.

DesertAir · Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:42 pm

December 1990 I took a Pan Am flight from SFO to LAX on a 727 which went onto to MIA. I then took PanAM to Guatemala City. They seemed to have feed between their major cities.

OzarkD9S · Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:53 pm

Chuska wrote:

For a very short time, about a month and a half in late 1989-early 1990, Pan Am actually tagged their JFK-DFW flight into ABQ. Never thought I'd see Pan Am in ABQ but it does go down in the record books.

Now that's a fun fact I was unaware of. Interesting...

Chuska · Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:55 pm

For a very short time, about a month and a half in late 1989-early 1990, Pan Am actually tagged their JFK-DFW flight into ABQ. Never thought I'd see Pan Am in ABQ but it does go down in the record books.

PanHAM · Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:59 pm

The Magic word is interlining. Before deregulation interlining was the source of passenger feed from off-line cities. The carriers employed a large sales force, in online and offline cities, Travel agents and freight forwarders were selling agents and got nice commissions for their help.
And the parties were great. Their City Office in Hamburg, located in the famous Jungfernstieg Corner Colonnaden had a large Basement. Looking back, the 70s was the glorious time in aviation

OA940 · Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:11 pm

So hypothetical question (that may deserve its own thread lol): What if PA never ceased? Would the US3 have a smaller international network or would PA have a larger domestic one?

Kilopond · Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:35 pm

TC957 wrote:
At LHR, they operated some 727's on flights into Europe to feed the TTL services. TWA did this as well.

To be even more precise, those had not been based at Heathrow but at the outposts in continental Europe and did a morning rotation to LHR and back to their base. That way, they connected just perfectly with the transatlantic filghts from/to the US hubs.

Yflyer · Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:06 pm

OA940 wrote:
So hypothetical question (that may deserve its own thread lol): What if PA never ceased? Would the US3 have a smaller international network or would PA have a larger domestic one?

We in fact did have a thread on that relatively recently. My opinion: If Pan Am had survived they'd have gotten caught up in the merger mania of the last decade, and as a result they'd be one of the US3, and they'd look more or less like United or American does today.

flyPIT · Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:10 pm

One of Pan Am's earlier interline arrangements:

klm617 · Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:16 pm

When we flew Pan Am from Detroit to Frankfurt in 1979 we flew DTW-JFK on TWA and JFK-DTW on Northwest Orient.

American 767 · Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:32 pm

TC957 wrote:
At LHR, they operated some 727's on flights into Europe to feed the TTL services.

FRA also. FRA was one of their major bases in Europe, if not the most important one, it was almost a hub. From FRA, you could fly Pan Am to a lot of places in East and West Germany (remember at that time during the 70s and 80s Lufthansa was not allowed to fly to East Germany), as well as other places in Central and Eastern Europe. The point of FRA was to connect passengers from everywhere in the two Germanies and Central/Eastern Europe to the United States, and vice versa. I know there used to be Pan Am crews based in Frankfurt, on temporary assignments for flights within Europe before returning to their home in the United States.
Pan Am also flew to Bombay and Nairobi from its FRA hub, or focus city if you prefer. Back in 1980 my parents flew on a Pan Am 747 from FRA to NRT with a stop in Bombay (or Delhi I don't remember exactly where in India).

Yes you are right about LHR, it was also a major transfer point for Pan Am in Europe. There was a time when the only way one could fly Pan Am to Brussels or Amsterdam was going through London. And they would not sell you a seat just on a flight from LHR to BRU or AMS, or anywhere else in Europe. Your ticket had to include a TATL leg.

MR27122 · Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:38 pm

FlyPeoria wrote:
putthoff wrote:
william wrote:

Pan AM did not have a good feed. And before deregulation, airlines did not operate the same as they do today.

Nashville, Austin, Syracuse, Charlotte--how strange are those cities for a non-domestic airline? How did that happen?

This route map probably dates to the mid-or late-1980s, after deregulation (October 1978) and after absorbing National Airlines. In the 1980s, Pan Am added a number of U. S. cities as feeder routes to the JFK and MIA international hubs.

This map is a predecessor to Pan Am/National merged map. National was large in Houston & MSY, & also served SRQ-RSW-Pensecola-etc & those routes remained after merger.

SunsetLimited · Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:43 pm

That map is probably from 1985 to 1987, somewhere in there.

Pan Am greatly reduced Houston flying (no more west coast, MEX, LHR nonstops for example) and left New Orleans altogether by 1985...though they would re-start MSY service in '88.

WA707atMSP · Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:48 pm

MR27122 wrote:
FlyPeoria wrote:
putthoff wrote:
Nashville, Austin, Syracuse, Charlotte--how strange are those cities for a non-domestic airline? How did that happen?

This route map probably dates to the mid-or late-1980s, after deregulation (October 1978) and after absorbing National Airlines. In the 1980s, Pan Am added a number of U. S. cities as feeder routes to the JFK and MIA international hubs.

This map is a predecessor to Pan Am/National merged map. National was large in Houston & MSY, & also served SRQ-RSW-Pensecola-etc & those routes remained after merger.

Actually, this map is from after the merger, and after Pan Am pulled down National's pre-merger route network. Neither National nor Pan Am flew to Salt Lake City before the merger, and neither airline flew to Chicago when the merger went into effect (Pan Am suspended service to Chicago in the mid-1970s as part of the Pan Am / TWA route swap).

National had very low labor costs before deregulation (as did Northwest and Delta), and large parts of National's network became unprofitable when National's employee pay scales were increased to Pan Am's higher levels.

F27500 · Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:56 pm

Poorly, I'd say.

MR27122 · Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:19 pm

WA707atMSP wrote:
MR27122 wrote:
FlyPeoria wrote:

This route map probably dates to the mid-or late-1980s, after deregulation (October 1978) and after absorbing National Airlines. In the 1980s, Pan Am added a number of U. S. cities as feeder routes to the JFK and MIA international hubs.

This map is a predecessor to Pan Am/National merged map. National was large in Houston & MSY, & also served SRQ-RSW-Pensecola-etc & those routes remained after merger.

Actually, this map is from after the merger, and after Pan Am pulled down National's pre-merger route network. Neither National nor Pan Am flew to Salt Lake City before the merger, and neither airline flew to Chicago when the merger went into effect (Pan Am suspended service to Chicago in the mid-1970s as part of the Pan Am / TWA route swap).

National had very low labor costs before deregulation (as did Northwest and Delta), and large parts of National's network became unprofitable when National's employee pay scales were increased to Pan Am's higher levels.

U right Map = June 1, 1987

flyingclrs727 · Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:36 pm

lavalampluva wrote:
Before PA started it's own domestic service they counted primarily on pax living in it's hub cities (JFK, MIA, SFO) and other domestic airlines serving those hubs.

No, they got domestic airlines to bring passengers to and from Pan Am's gateway cities. Pan Am made lots of political enemies over the dcades, especially their attempt in the 1940's to have Congress annoint them as the only US flag carrier.

Deregulation and the increasing range of aircraft flying international routes doomed Pan Am. Where previously it was necessary for planes flying from the middle and western parts of the US to stop for fuel somewhere, 747's could fly even west coast to Europe nonstop. DC-10-30's could easily fly IAH-LGW. The Pan Am route system. that funneled passengers through JFK was now vulnerable and not just by domestic US carriers flying from their domestic hubs to Europe but also foreign carriers bypassing JFK.

flyingclrs727 · Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:42 pm

I have started wondering why Braniff wasn't a potential merger partner for Pan Am after deregulation? BN actually had domestic routes that could have been complementary to Pan Am's compared to National's routes. Furthermore, they could have started a new hub at DFW. In addition BN had international routes to South America including those that had been sold by Panagra in the 1960's. Both BN and PA had hubs in MIA. I would think PA could have flown 747's between MIA and MAD, while BN could connect them to cities in Central America and northern South America.

SpaceshipDC10 · Wed Mar 14, 2018 12:13 am

flyingclrs727 wrote:
I have started wondering why Braniff wasn't a potential merger partner for Pan Am after deregulation?

I doubt Harding Lawrence would have agreed to that. He preferred to order many new aircraft and start new routes by the dozen. Remember the orange 74L flying to Asia?

EvanWSFO · Wed Mar 14, 2018 12:25 am

flyingclrs727 wrote:
I have started wondering why Braniff wasn't a potential merger partner for Pan Am after deregulation? BN actually had domestic routes that could have been complementary to Pan Am's compared to National's routes. Furthermore, they could have started a new hub at DFW. In addition BN had international routes to South America including those that had been sold by Panagra in the 1960's. Both BN and PA had hubs in MIA. I would think PA could have flown 747's between MIA and MAD, while BN could connect them to cities in Central America and northern South America.

Right before deregulation, Braniff applied for something like 600 city pairs. They started some routes that made no sense whatsoever. Had they merged into Pan Am, the latter would not have made it out of the mid-80s, if that long.

flyingclrs727 · Wed Mar 14, 2018 12:36 am

jfklganyc wrote:
It was bizzare. They just needed the hub DL has today at JFK and they would have had their feed.

They didnt need to be the largest domestic carrier, they just needed to feed their Euro ops at JFK. But alas

Or they could have redeployed their fleet to other airports. They mostly had international gateways along the borders of the US. They had no international presence in interior cities like Dallas other than agreements with BN to let BN operate PA planes to airports where PA flew internationally. They could have set up operations in DFW and flown 747's from there to European hubs. They could have also moved some 747SP's to DFW to operate flights to NRT. They could have also coordinated with BN connecting on routes between DFW and Latin America to PA's hub in NRT.

KUZAWU08 · Wed Mar 14, 2018 12:42 am

Did they do charters too? I recall flying on a chartered 727 from TUS-CLT in spring 2005 with full Pan Am colors. I still can't quite figure that one out since I know the airline had gone under. Man I wish I could find the cardboard box camera picture somewhere of that aircraft.

flyingclrs727 · Wed Mar 14, 2018 12:43 am

EvanWSFO wrote:
flyingclrs727 wrote:
I have started wondering why Braniff wasn't a potential merger partner for Pan Am after deregulation? BN actually had domestic routes that could have been complementary to Pan Am's compared to National's routes. Furthermore, they could have started a new hub at DFW. In addition BN had international routes to South America including those that had been sold by Panagra in the 1960's. Both BN and PA had hubs in MIA. I would think PA could have flown 747's between MIA and MAD, while BN could connect them to cities in Central America and northern South America.

Right before deregulation, Braniff applied for something like 600 city pairs. They started some routes that made no sense whatsoever. Had they merged into Pan Am, the latter would not have made it out of the mid-80s, if that long.

I'm quite aware of this. Lawrence Harding thought deregulation would be short lived. That's why he went in such a binge applying for a totally unsustainable network of rights. BN had lots of existing routes that could have benefited from metal Pan Am already had, and Braniff had lots of routes that could have been used to feed PA flights at most of PA's existng hubs.

If PA had had a shared hub with BN at DFW, they could have put lots of.pressure in the 1980's to open up LHR to Dallas.

SpaceshipDC10 · Wed Mar 14, 2018 12:50 am

flyingclrs727 wrote:
Or they could have redeployed their fleet to other airports. They mostly had international gateways along the borders of the US. They had no international presence in interior cities like Dallas other than agreements with BN to let BN operate PA planes to airports where PA flew internationally. They could have set up operations in DFW and flown 747's from there to European hubs. They could have also moved some 747SP's to DFW to operate flights to NRT. They could have also coordinated with BN connecting on routes between DFW and Latin America to PA's hub in NRT.

Yes, but for that, they should have had really wise guys at the top, with a proper vision and capabilities for the company after Senor Trippe retired. The best was Seawell, but too late and with the terrible idea to go after National at all costs, really all costs.

EvanWSFO · Wed Mar 14, 2018 12:51 am

flyingclrs727 wrote:
EvanWSFO wrote:
flyingclrs727 wrote:
I have started wondering why Braniff wasn't a potential merger partner for Pan Am after deregulation? BN actually had domestic routes that could have been complementary to Pan Am's compared to National's routes. Furthermore, they could have started a new hub at DFW. In addition BN had international routes to South America including those that had been sold by Panagra in the 1960's. Both BN and PA had hubs in MIA. I would think PA could have flown 747's between MIA and MAD, while BN could connect them to cities in Central America and northern South America.

Right before deregulation, Braniff applied for something like 600 city pairs. They started some routes that made no sense whatsoever. Had they merged into Pan Am, the latter would not have made it out of the mid-80s, if that long.

I'm quite aware of this. Lawrence Harding thought deregulation would be short lived. That's why he went in such a binge applying for a totally unsustainable network of rights. BN had lots of existing routes that could have benefited from metal Pan Am already had, and Braniff had lots of routes that could have been used to feed PA flights at most of PA's existng hubs.

I don't disagree that Braniff could have given PA feed, but Lawrence would have had to go, and PA be a little less willy-nilly in it's route planning) as BN was).

SpaceshipDC10 · Wed Mar 14, 2018 12:53 am

KUZAWU08 wrote:
Did they do charters too? I recall flying on a chartered 727 from TUS-CLT in spring 2005 with full Pan Am colors. I still can't quite figure that one out since I know the airline had gone under. Man I wish I could find the cardboard box camera picture somewhere of that aircraft.

The Pan Am we are talking about in this thread was the original one from 1927 that ceased operations in December 1991.

EvanWSFO · Wed Mar 14, 2018 12:56 am

SpaceshipDC10 wrote:
flyingclrs727 wrote:
Or they could have redeployed their fleet to other airports. They mostly had international gateways along the borders of the US. They had no international presence in interior cities like Dallas other than agreements with BN to let BN operate PA planes to airports where PA flew internationally. They could have set up operations in DFW and flown 747's from there to European hubs. They could have also moved some 747SP's to DFW to operate flights to NRT. They could have also coordinated with BN connecting on routes between DFW and Latin America to PA's hub in NRT.

Yes, but for that, they should have had really wise guys at the top, with a proper vision and capabilities for the company after Senor Trippe retired. The best was Seawell, but too late and with the terrible idea to go after National at all costs, really all costs.

It was interesting PA actually had a DFW-HNL-DFW 747 flight once a week . Can't remember when.

flyingclrs727 · Wed Mar 14, 2018 12:57 am

SpaceshipDC10 wrote:
flyingclrs727 wrote:
Or they could have redeployed their fleet to other airports. They mostly had international gateways along the borders of the US. They had no international presence in interior cities like Dallas other than agreements with BN to let BN operate PA planes to airports where PA flew internationally. They could have set up operations in DFW and flown 747's from there to European hubs. They could have also moved some 747SP's to DFW to operate flights to NRT. They could have also coordinated with BN connecting on routes between DFW and Latin America to PA's hub in NRT.

Yes, but for that, they should have had really wise guys at the top, with a proper vision and capabilities for the company after Senor Trippe retired. The best was Seawell, but too late and with the terrible idea to go after National at all costs, really all costs.

BN could really have used PA's fleet of 747SP's even after better equipment for JFK-NRT became available. PA's European 727's could have been replaced with A320's, while BN could have used the 727's to the Caribbean in the pre ETOPS narrow body era.

superjeff · Wed Mar 14, 2018 1:05 am

A Braniff-Pan Am merger would have made sense. Ed Ackerman, one of the last heads of PanAm was ex-Braniff and knew both airlines well. Both airlines had pretty similar cultures and compatible equipment (although Braniff had a bunch of DC8-62’s). It would have helped Braniff compete with American at DFW, and Pan Am compete with the domestics as they gained international routes after 1978.

superjeff · Wed Mar 14, 2018 1:05 am

superjeff wrote:
A Braniff-Pan Am merger would have made sense. Ed Acker, one of the last heads of PanAm was ex-Braniff and knew both airlines well. Both airlines had pretty similar cultures and compatible equipment (although Braniff had a bunch of DC8-62’s). It would have helped Braniff compete with American at DFW, and Pan Am compete with the domestics as they gained international routes after 1978.

SpaceshipDC10 · Wed Mar 14, 2018 1:07 am

flyingclrs727 wrote:
PA's European 727's could have been replaced with A320's, while BN could have used the 727's to the Caribbean in the pre ETOPS narrow body era.

Funny. Didn't the second Braniff got the A320s Pan Am could no longer afford ?

flyingclrs727 · Wed Mar 14, 2018 1:07 am

EvanWSFO wrote:
flyingclrs727 wrote:
EvanWSFO wrote:

Right before deregulation, Braniff applied for something like 600 city pairs. They started some routes that made no sense whatsoever. Had they merged into Pan Am, the latter would not have made it out of the mid-80s, if that long.

I'm quite aware of this. Lawrence Harding thought deregulation would be short lived. That's why he went in such a binge applying for a totally unsustainable network of rights. BN had lots of existing routes that could have benefited from metal Pan Am already had, and Braniff had lots of routes that could have been used to feed PA flights at most of PA's existng hubs.

I don't disagree that Braniff could have given PA feed, but Lawrence would have had to go, and PA be a little less willy-nilly in it's route planning) as BN was).

Not just feed but the opportunity to restructure routes
using a brand new hub that was not constrained or crowded. Pan Am's routes assumed traffic connecting in New York, because previous generations of planes didn't have the range to go far inland from Europe or Asia.

A combination of Pan Am and Braniff at DFW could have put pressure on AA.

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