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BUFJACK10
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Mirabel Airport - Montreal

Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:47 pm

Having flown into Mirabel a few times and saddened to see it close, I was wondering if anyone can update what's going on with it to date. I know Bombardier has a presence and I believe some cargo is processed there.

Has the terminal area and hotel been demolished? I know it was scheduled to be but I was unable to find any photos or videos on Youtube that are later than 2014.
I also couldn't find much on here about it.

Any input will be appreciated. Thanks
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BWIAirport
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Re: Mirabel Airport - Montreal

Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:58 pm

According to the Wikipedia article, the terminal completed demolition in 2016. The hotel is still standing but not in operation, and (at least according to the article) the fate of it is unknown. I can't imagine they would want to keep it though.
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BWIAirport
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Re: Mirabel Airport - Montreal

Wed Mar 14, 2018 12:03 am

In addition, it is also interesting looking at the most recent Google Earth imagery (May 5, 2017) of YMX, as you can see a WOW Air A330 parked where the terminal building used to be, and what seems like a go-kart track covering the other two building footprints.
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SpaceshipDC10
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Re: Mirabel Airport - Montreal

Wed Mar 14, 2018 12:04 am

YMX has become the cargo airport of Montreal's metropolitan area. The terminal has been demolished 3-4 years ago and there was a thread about it here.
 
YYZLGA
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Re: Mirabel Airport - Montreal

Wed Mar 14, 2018 5:37 pm

Through all the trials and tribulations, Montreal has ended up with quite an enviable airport system. It has a world-class 24-hour cargo and industrial airport, a passenger airport fairly near the city centre that still has as much runway capacity as Heathrow, and a good GA airport in Saint-Hubert.
 
drgmobile
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Re: Mirabel Airport - Montreal

Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:30 pm

BUFJACK10 wrote:
Having flown into Mirabel a few times and saddened to see it close, I was wondering if anyone can update what's going on with it to date. I know Bombardier has a presence and I believe some cargo is processed there.

Has the terminal area and hotel been demolished? I know it was scheduled to be but I was unable to find any photos or videos on Youtube that are later than 2014.
I also couldn't find much on here about it.

Any input will be appreciated. Thanks


The airport never closed. It hasn't handled passenger traffic since 2004 but the airport never closed.
 
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c933103
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Re: Mirabel Airport - Montreal

Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:40 pm

On Mirabel airport's original plan on wikipedia there seems to be a STOLport next to the airport itself. What would be its use with 6 runways that the airport would have?
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Skywatcher
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Re: Mirabel Airport - Montreal

Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:57 pm

Just the mention of the word "Mirabel" makes people in Montreal cringe. What a mess the whole saga was.
 
sixtyseven
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Re: Mirabel Airport - Montreal

Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:02 pm

YYZLGA wrote:
Through all the trials and tribulations, Montreal has ended up with quite an enviable airport system. It has a world-class 24-hour cargo and industrial airport, a passenger airport fairly near the city centre that still has as much runway capacity as Heathrow, and a good GA airport in Saint-Hubert.


And the apron capacity of a postage stamp.

YUL is a Terrible airport.
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Dominion301
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Re: Mirabel Airport - Montreal

Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:05 pm

sixtyseven wrote:
YYZLGA wrote:
Through all the trials and tribulations, Montreal has ended up with quite an enviable airport system. It has a world-class 24-hour cargo and industrial airport, a passenger airport fairly near the city centre that still has as much runway capacity as Heathrow, and a good GA airport in Saint-Hubert.


And the apron capacity of a postage stamp.

YUL is a Terrible airport.


Runway 10/28 really is a hindrance to expanding outward beyond the 60s era Aeroquay.
 
SteelChair
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Re: Mirabel Airport - Montreal

Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:44 pm

30 years from now perhaps the closing of YMX to passenger traffic will be seen as a mistake.

Perhaps a high speed train link at some pont in the future could make it viable over the long term?
 
sixtyseven
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Re: Mirabel Airport - Montreal

Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:03 pm

Dominion301 wrote:
sixtyseven wrote:
YYZLGA wrote:
Through all the trials and tribulations, Montreal has ended up with quite an enviable airport system. It has a world-class 24-hour cargo and industrial airport, a passenger airport fairly near the city centre that still has as much runway capacity as Heathrow, and a good GA airport in Saint-Hubert.


And the apron capacity of a postage stamp.

YUL is a Terrible airport.


Runway 10/28 really is a hindrance to expanding outward beyond the 60s era Aeroquay.


I could not agree more. That aeroquay is a massive roadblock. During peak movement times it creates pure havoc. One pushback can bring that whole section to a complete halt. Inbound, outbound movements and a seemingly inept apron controller that always seems to be on duty, the PTV operations adding to frequency congestion (in both languages) add to the frustration. Throw in an aircraft waiting for Marshalls and you get the Dorval experience. Pure chaos. You get rid of 10/28 and you can add some needed real estate to help ease things.
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BUFJACK10
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Re: Mirabel Airport - Montreal

Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:23 pm

I apologize for sounding naiive but what in the Aeroquay?
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yhu
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Re: Mirabel Airport - Montreal

Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:31 pm

BUFJACK10 wrote:
I apologize for sounding naiive but what in the Aeroquay?


It's a small concourse of remote gates just north east of the main terminal. Gates are generally used by Jazz, First Air and Air Creebec. I've flown out of those gates twice and it's amazing how much you feel like you're back in the 60s. At least it was that way about 12 years ago.
 
yhu
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Re: Mirabel Airport - Montreal

Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:32 pm

YYZLGA wrote:
Through all the trials and tribulations, Montreal has ended up with quite an enviable airport system. It has a world-class 24-hour cargo and industrial airport, a passenger airport fairly near the city centre that still has as much runway capacity as Heathrow, and a good GA airport in Saint-Hubert.



I still expect St Hubert to have a small terminal built over the next 5 years. I can see Sunwing and Transat having some success out of YHU with flights down south. I think if Pascan could also see an increase in passenger numbers if they moved in to a proper terminal.
 
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ACCS300
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Re: Mirabel Airport - Montreal

Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:47 pm

Loved the 'modernist' passenger terminal, wish it could have been preserved in some way, it was stunning. If the Quebec referendum hadn't have taken place I'm sure they could have funded a rail-link and eventually made Mirabel the only airport of Montreal eliminating the need to transfer to YUL and making Mirabel a great success.
 
JAGflyer
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Re: Mirabel Airport - Montreal

Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:50 pm

yhu wrote:
BUFJACK10 wrote:
I apologize for sounding naiive but what in the Aeroquay?


It's a small concourse of remote gates just north east of the main terminal. Gates are generally used by Jazz, First Air and Air Creebec. I've flown out of those gates twice and it's amazing how much you feel like you're back in the 60s. At least it was that way about 12 years ago.


The original aeroquay was longer and had more jetbridges (on the part that was demolished). It is accessed by a moving sidewalk the runs below the ground. I remember back in the early 2000s when it was mainly used for international flights prior to the opening of the newer part of the terminal (the #50/60 gates). The part of it that remains now is where all the domestic turboprop aircraft used to park and I believe only 3-4 gates on the opposite end have jetbridges.
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PanHAM
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Re: Mirabel Airport - Montreal

Thu Mar 15, 2018 6:52 am

YMX is not a cargo Airport, it is an industrial Airport servoing also Integrators.
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AIRTRANSAT767
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Re: Mirabel Airport - Montreal

Thu Mar 15, 2018 11:13 pm

ADM closed Mirabel because they do not know much about management !!

Also ADM has not defended Mirabel to the Government of Canada. YUL is worse airport in Quebec misplaced it is too late. ADM we never let go of the ground next to the terminal. Bombardier.
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YYZLGA
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Re: Mirabel Airport - Montreal

Fri Mar 16, 2018 12:26 am

ADM closed YMX because it made no sense for a city like Montreal to operate a separate airport over 50km from the city centre when there was an airport with more than enough capacity to meet demand only a few kilometres from the city centre. We're heard much about the high-speed rail link that should have been built to YMX, but that would have done little for people who aren't downtown. The rest would still be stuck with a 50+km drive. Separating domestic feed at YUL from international flights at YMX is, along with relative urban growth, responsible for YYZ supplanting Montreal as Canada's primary eastern international hub. The only way YMX would have been successful is if YUL had closed. Why would it make sense to close a functional, accessible airport in favour of a much more distant and more expensive airport, in order to provide capacity that wasn't needed? And fixing the ramp at YUL (which now seems to be in the plans once the runway reconstruction is complete) is a lot easier than splitting traffic with an airport 50+ km away.

When a city has a severely constrained airport, like Riem in Munich or Stapleton in Denver, a new greenfield airport makes sense--but only if the previous airport is closed. YUL has proven that it has been capable of not only handling massive growth, but also a new role as a major international hub. With a new midfield concourse like ZRH, replacement of the Aeroquay, and some access improvements, YUL will easily be able to handle another 10 million in growth, especially if much of it is connecting traffic. YUL has become a major international hub for AC because it has lower costs than YYZ. The best way to throw away that advantage is to spent millions/billions trying to shift traffic to a second airport. At least in recent years, Montreal has done a pretty decent job of running its airport system, with reasonably sized, affordable expansions and improvements instead of unaffordable, pharaonic projects. I don't get where the heavy criticism comes from.
 
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yyz717
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Re: Mirabel Airport - Montreal

Fri Mar 16, 2018 5:09 pm

YYZLGA wrote:
... Separating domestic feed at YUL from international flights at YMX is, along with relative urban growth, responsible for YYZ supplanting Montreal as Canada's primary eastern international hub.....


Not entirely. YYZ was already on the rise in terms of passenger numbers well before YMX was operational. YYZ actually surpassed YUL in terms of passenger count in the 60s. While YMX was a factor (albeit a small one, but certainly not the only one) in helping YYZ supplant Montreal as Canada's primary eastern international hub, other factors were far more influential (the growing number of Euro carriers flying to YYZ in the 70s, the much higher per capita income and business activity in the YYZ area thus adding to O+D traffic to YYZ vs YUL, and as you said, growing population).
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Re: Mirabel Airport - Montreal

Fri Mar 16, 2018 5:41 pm

While always intrigued by Mirabel and it’s related drama, I guess I haven’t followed things there in quite some time. Was there not a proposal a few years to convert the terminal to an indoor amusement park or am I imagining things? I had no idea the terminal was demolished.
 
ExMilitaryEng
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Re: Mirabel Airport - Montreal

Fri Mar 16, 2018 8:44 pm

yyz717 wrote:
Not entirely. YYZ was already on the rise in terms of passenger numbers well before YMX was operational. YYZ actually surpassed YUL in terms of passenger count in the 60s. While YMX was a factor (albeit a small one, but certainly not the only one) in helping YYZ supplant Montreal as Canada's primary eastern international hub, other factors were far more influential (the growing number of Euro carriers flying to YYZ in the 70s, the much higher per capita income and business activity in the YYZ area thus adding to O+D traffic to YYZ vs YUL, and as you said, growing population).

While all you say is accurate, YUL still had a sufficient critical mass of European flights to sustain its hub. (Agreed that YUL was then rather stagnant/slow growth compared to YYZ, but it was still a functional hub).

However, that critical mass was totally destroyed when all international flights were forced into YMX (while all domestics / transborders stayed into YUL).

Apparently Air Canada somehow lobbied Ottawa hard for that disastrous move - probably figured out it needed to re-enforce its YYZ hub to better compete US carriers?
 
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Re: Mirabel Airport - Montreal

Fri Mar 16, 2018 9:14 pm

PanHAM wrote:
YMX is not a cargo Airport, it is an industrial Airport servoing also Integrators.

Industrial, indeed! It is where PW stages its flight test aircraft, and where it builds the (infamous?) GTF engines.

http://www.pwc.ca/en/about/mirabel-aerospace-centre says:

Reaching New Heights - Flight Test Operations

This centre is the global flight testing hub for the complete range of Pratt & Whitney engines up to 90,000 pound thrust. The facility features advanced flight test equipment, including two Boeing 747SP aircraft. These flying laboratories are able to simulate a full range of operating conditions and capture record amounts of data.

Next Generation Manufacturing - Assembly and Test

Based on the most advanced principles of lean manufacturing, the Mirabel Aerospace Centre features technologies and processes which result in increased efficiency. The facility will also house two of Canada’s largest aircraft engine test cells.

Pratt & Whitney Canada will assemble and test the PurePower® PW1524G engine for the Bombardier CSeries and the PW800 engine family for the next generation of large business jets at this facility.
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YYZLGA
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Re: Mirabel Airport - Montreal

Fri Mar 16, 2018 11:18 pm

It's hard to entirely blame the decision-makers in the late 60s when YMX was being planned. They were working a set of assumptions that were reasonable at the time, but proved to be incorrect. Montreal was premier city at that time and it was on a growth trajectory that was hoped would put it in the same league as cities like Paris and London. That all changed after '76. They were also expecting international air travel to become supersonic, with aircraft noise that would become absolutely unbearable in built-up areas. As we all know, widespread supersonic travel never happened and planes have become much quieter. So sitting in 1967, coming off the high of Expo, YMX probably made a fair bit of sense. If things had worked out differently, it would have been visionary. Paris is certainly happy it built its version of YMX in the form of CDG, while New York and London probably wish they had done the same. But 50 years later, given the changed circumstances, upgrading a perfectly good airport at YUL clearly is the way to go for Montreal.

YMX is also where the CSeries is assembled.
 
sqpax
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Re: Mirabel Airport - Montreal

Fri Mar 16, 2018 11:41 pm

BWIAirport wrote:
In addition, it is also interesting looking at the most recent Google Earth imagery (May 5, 2017) of YMX, as you can see a WOW Air A330 parked where the terminal building used to be, and what seems like a go-kart track covering the other two building footprints.


There is indeed a go-kart track there, two of them to be exact. One is for local club and national events; great track on the apron of the old terminal. The other is for rental karts. There is also an amazing car track there where they have an arrive and drive program. Rent some high end cars to do laps. Never done that.

Mirabel is alive and well. When my son last raced at Mirabel, 2016, it was the weekend before the F1 event in Montreal. It was so cool all of the 74F's arriving over the weekend we raced. I remember transiting thru the old terminal in the late 70's (I think) and having to take a bus to YUL. I had come from the UK. Long live YMX!
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Thenoflyzone
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Re: Mirabel Airport - Montreal

Fri Mar 16, 2018 11:51 pm

yhu wrote:
I still expect St Hubert to have a small terminal built over the next 5 years. I can see Sunwing and Transat having some success out of YHU with flights down south. I think if Pascan could also see an increase in passenger numbers if they moved in to a proper terminal.


Don't hold your breath. Sunwing and Transat would never split sun operations out of two airports in Montreal. Doesn't make sense as it adds to the costs of operations. YUL is perfectly suitable for the low yielding sun flier living on the south shore of Montreal.

The only airlines that would start operations at YHU are those that will chase higher yielding passengers to regional destinations such as to YQB or YTZ. And even then, YHU has a long way to go to prove to those airlines that it is a better option than YUL.

It's not just about building a terminal. They need to improve road access to the airport and add public transit options, because as it stands right now, not sure the commute from YUL to downtown is any longer than from YHU to downtown. When the R.E.M. Is built, YUL to downtown will only take 18 minutes on the express trains. That is though to beat.
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yhu
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Re: Mirabel Airport - Montreal

Mon Mar 19, 2018 5:38 pm

Thenoflyzone wrote:
Don't hold your breath. Sunwing and Transat would never split sun operations out of two airports in Montreal. Doesn't make sense as it adds to the costs of operations. YUL is perfectly suitable for the low yielding sun flier living on the south shore of Montreal.

It's not just about building a terminal. They need to improve road access to the airport and add public transit options, because as it stands right now, not sure the commute from YUL to downtown is any longer than from YHU to downtown. When the R.E.M. Is built, YUL to downtown will only take 18 minutes on the express trains. That is though to beat.


I do agree that YUL is well connected to downtown and that will only improve over time. I do however feel that there is still a large market on the south shore for vacation travel. Both Sunwing and Air Transat offer flights out of Hamilton because there is a market there even though YYZ is not that far a drive. YUL is a great airport, but the bridges over the river can be a headache any time of the year. I don't think either airline would have trouble filling up 737s to Florida and the Caribbean. Will it be financially worth it? That's another question.
 
ExMilitaryEng
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Re: Mirabel Airport - Montreal

Mon Mar 19, 2018 9:39 pm

yhu wrote:
I do agree that YUL is well connected to downtown and that will only improve over time. I do however feel that there is still a large market on the south shore for vacation travel. Both Sunwing and Air Transat offer flights out of Hamilton because there is a market there even though YYZ is not that far a drive. YUL is a great airport, but the bridges over the river can be a headache any time of the year. I don't think either airline would have trouble filling up 737s to Florida and the Caribbean. Will it be financially worth it? That's another question.
I agree YHU will eventually take a greater role in a few years, particularly when YUL will start to get choked. Some financial incentives could convince Sunwing/Air Transat to move some peak time flights from YUL to YHU.

I have some attachments to YHU; my first military posting was at the "Mobile Command Headquarter" in 1981. FWIW, the Canadian Army HQ was called like that then, it's now called the Land Force HQ, but it got moved to Ottawa many years ago..

That building is now the Longueuil City Hall.
 
beechnut
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Re: Mirabel Airport - Montreal

Mon Mar 19, 2018 10:00 pm

AIRTRANSAT767 wrote:
ADM closed Mirabel because they do not know much about management !!

Also ADM has not defended Mirabel to the Government of Canada. YUL is worse airport in Quebec misplaced it is too late. ADM we never let go of the ground next to the terminal. Bombardier.


Don't blame ADM. Mirabel was fed by a highway that never made it all the way and a rail link that was never even built. The distance from the city was too much, without those links. I used Mirabel many times when it was still open, for flights to LHR, San Paulo and Santiago. For me, living in the Eastern Townships, it was a real pain in the butt to get to, with two bridges and at least one of them inevitably in rush hour.

It also made no sense to have domestic/transborder traffic at YUL and overseas at YMX. Connections were horrible and Montreal had zero potential as a hub with that set-up.

That said, YUL is, to be charitable, in need of some improvement. At least now though, the direct road link from the city via highway 20 has been opened, about 4 years late, bypassing that awful Dorval Circle.

Beech
 
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Jawaiiansky66
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Re: Mirabel Airport - Montreal

Mon Mar 19, 2018 11:11 pm

Man, I loved Mirabel when i visited the airport back in 2000 and 2001.

I was in architecture grad school during this time and i was designing a new type of mass transport system for my second year design studio. The studio assignment was to design a method to travel between Montreal and Toronto.

I chose Mirabel as the first Montreal stop due to its massive size and unique facilities. I loved how the public could actually see out onto the entire customs floor - you could see your family/friends enter into the terminal from the mobile passenger lounge doors, see them line up for customs and then head over to pick up their bags. It made the airport circulation route a public performance art spectacle. I have never seen another airport with that type of layout. You could experience the entire airport process from that massive indoor second floor balcony.

http://digital-possibilities.com/blog/w ... l-airport/

http://www.worldabandoned.com/montreal-mirabel

Interesting advert on the OTHER Montreal airport - http://www.admtl.com/booklet75years#page_1
 
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Jawaiiansky66
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Re: Mirabel Airport - Montreal

Mon Mar 19, 2018 11:34 pm

Check at 5.27 for the customs floor https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6eeL8C67Lg
 
Noise
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Re: Mirabel Airport - Montreal

Mon Mar 19, 2018 11:47 pm

Is there room at YUL to add a 3rd parallel runway?
 
beechnut
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Re: Mirabel Airport - Montreal

Tue Mar 20, 2018 12:31 am

Interesting tidbit: back in 1999 I owned a Piper Cherokee 140. Myself and a half dozen other aircraft flew to YMX for breakfast. Back then I think it was only charter and cargo using the airport. We all arrived individually and had a ride to the terminal in the security vehicle, but on the way back, we all left at once, 7 pilots and 7 pax, so they fired up one of the PTVs to take us back to our parked aircraft! Quite a blast and a unique experience!

Beech
 
346fetish
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Re: Mirabel Airport - Montreal

Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:45 am

    Noise wrote:
    Is there room at YUL to add a 3rd parallel runway?


    There is room north west of runway 06L/24R for a third runway.
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    ghYHZ
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    Re: Mirabel Airport - Montreal

    Tue Mar 20, 2018 11:36 am

    yhu wrote:
    I still expect St Hubert to have a small terminal built over the next 5 years. I can see Sunwing and Transat having some success out of YHU with flights down south. I think if Pascan could also see an increase in passenger numbers if they moved in to a proper terminal.


    RTM (Commuter Rail) has a station adjacent to YHU but schedules would have to be increased significantly to provide an adequate link between downtown and the airport…..but still road access is good for residents on the south shore without having to cross to Montreal Island.

    https://goo.gl/maps/EaZzPf58gir

    St Hubert was Montreal’s main Airport and served Trans-Canada Airlines (Air Canada) until YUL opened. TCA’s passenger flights did not yet continue east of YHU so to serve the Maritimes, this note appeared in the TCA Timetable of January 1940 (link below)

    “Direct connection is made for passengers from the Maritime Provinces at St. Hubert Airport from Canadian National Railways “Ocean Limited” to Trip No. 11 for Ottawa and Toronto. The “Ocean Limited” will stop at the Airport to discharge through passengers. (The Ocean still runs today as a VIA Rail train)

    http://www.timetableimages.com/ttimages ... tc40-2.jpg
    http://www.timetableimages.com/ttimages ... tc40-1.jpg
     
    dr1980
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    Re: Mirabel Airport - Montreal

    Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:44 pm

    sixtyseven wrote:
    Runway 10/28 really is a hindrance to expanding outward beyond the 60s era Aeroquay.


    How necessary is 10/28 at this point?
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    sixtyseven
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    Re: Mirabel Airport - Montreal

    Wed Mar 21, 2018 1:37 am

    dr1980 wrote:
    sixtyseven wrote:
    Runway 10/28 really is a hindrance to expanding outward beyond the 60s era Aeroquay.


    How necessary is 10/28 at this point?


    Takes up a lot of space tiger could have expanded the ramp to allow for two way traffic. The aeroquay creates its own roadblock of sorts that really rears it’s head in summer months.

    That said it’s good 10/28is open next couple of months as bravo taxi way is under construction limiting 24r departures to almost nil next little while
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    yhu
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    Re: Mirabel Airport - Montreal

    Wed Mar 21, 2018 4:20 pm

    What ever happened to the plan on creating a second horseshoe on the domestic side of the terminal. Similar to the two concourses for Transborder and International, there was originally going to be another horseshoe on the east side of the terminal for all domestic gates, eliminating the aeroquay.
     
    BostonBeau
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    Re: Mirabel Airport - Montreal

    Wed Mar 21, 2018 5:59 pm

    How does the situation between YUL and YMX compare to the situation we had in the USA between DCA and IAD? When IAD opened, basically only the long-distance flights that had been using BWI moved there, but there were very few other flights for many years. When IAD first opened, it had fewer than 100 flights a day, while DCA was handling over 600 per day. Other similarities were that IAD was too far from Washington, and that there was poor road and transit access.
     
    klakzky123
    Posts: 688
    Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2016 4:05 am

    Re: Mirabel Airport - Montreal

    Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:10 pm

    BostonBeau wrote:
    How does the situation between YUL and YMX compare to the situation we had in the USA between DCA and IAD? When IAD opened, basically only the long-distance flights that had been using BWI moved there, but there were very few other flights for many years. When IAD first opened, it had fewer than 100 flights a day, while DCA was handling over 600 per day. Other similarities were that IAD was too far from Washington, and that there was poor road and transit access.


    One major difference was the decline in Montreal's economy. Mirabel had all the international flights but those started to disappear as Montreal started to decline. Then the referendum happened and a bunch of Canadian businesses accelerated the decline by moving to Toronto. That pretty much killed what was left of Mirabel. I think YMX closed only a year or two after the referendum. Without the expected passenger traffic, it never made enough money to operate. Eventually everyone moved back to YUL and over time Montreal has seen a resurgence in international traffic. Airlines have finally started to come back as Montreal has stabilized.

    The DC Metro on the other hand has grown over time consistently. So IAD's international traffic was able to grow rather than go backwards. Also YUL had no limits on domestic flights while DCA eventually got the perimeter restrictions which forced domestic flights to move to IAD.

    If Montreal's economy and status in Canada doesn't decline, Mirabel might have survived (and YUL might have closed).
     
    ExMilitaryEng
    Posts: 643
    Joined: Mon May 01, 2017 7:12 pm

    Re: Mirabel Airport - Montreal

    Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:36 pm

    klakzky123 wrote:
    Mirabel had all the international flights but those started to disappear as Montreal started to decline. Then the referendum happened and a bunch of Canadian businesses accelerated the decline by moving to Toronto. That pretty much killed what was left of Mirabel. I think YMX closed only a year or two after the referendum. Without the expected passenger traffic, it never made enough money to operate. Eventually everyone moved back to YUL and over time Montreal has seen a resurgence in international traffic. Airlines have finally started to come back as Montreal has stabilized. If Montreal's economy and status in Canada doesn't decline, Mirabel might have survived (and YUL might have closed).

    We often somehow hear this explanation from some of my English Canadian friends. Some kind of subliminal message buried in there I suppose ;)

    The reality was that the economic shift (toward the west) started well before. Toronto was already the Canadian financial center by 1960. And it's now a world class financial center (good for them!).

    The inauguration of the St-Laurence Seaway accelerated this movement. It decreased the transportation costs in the great Lakes region.(+ All the maritime maintenance / overhaul / logistics activities then moved out of Montreal, no longer being the terminus)

    Then airliners got longer legs, with the ability to bypass Montreal altogether. (At the same time, YYZ was designated as the port of entry for all those new flights).

    Still, YUL hadaintained suficient European flights to sustain its hub efficiently.

    Then, the Feds opened the International Mirabel airport, and in the process, litterally cut it off from all of its domestic / transborder feed (all of which had to remain into YUL). What a stupid disastrous decision.

    It obliterated Montreal as an effective HUB in a matter of months. That was the real coup de grace!
    Last edited by ExMilitaryEng on Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
     
    klakzky123
    Posts: 688
    Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2016 4:05 am

    Re: Mirabel Airport - Montreal

    Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:52 pm

    ExMilitaryEng wrote:
    klakzky123 wrote:
    Mirabel had all the international flights but those started to disappear as Montreal started to decline. Then the referendum happened and a bunch of Canadian businesses accelerated the decline by moving to Toronto. That pretty much killed what was left of Mirabel. I think YMX closed only a year or two after the referendum. Without the expected passenger traffic, it never made enough money to operate. Eventually everyone moved back to YUL and over time Montreal has seen a resurgence in international traffic. Airlines have finally started to come back as Montreal has stabilized. If Montreal's economy and status in Canada doesn't decline, Mirabel might have survived (and YUL might have closed).

    We somehow hear this explanation from some of my English Canadian friends often. Some kind of subliminal message buried in there I suppose ;)

    The reality is that the economic shift (toward the west) started well before. Toronto was already Canada's fimamcial center by 1960.

    The inauguration of the St-Laurence Seaway accelerated this movement. It decreased the transportation costs in the great Lakes region.(+ All the maritime maintenance / overhaul / logistics activities then moved out of Montreal, no longer being the terminus)

    Then airliners got longer legs, with the ability to bypass Montreal altogether. (Attractive the same time, YYZ was designated as the port of entry for all those new flights).

    So the Feds opened the International Mirabel airport, and in her process, litterally cut it off from all of its domestic / transborder fed (all of which had to remain into YUL). It obliterated Montreal as an effective HUB in a matter of months. That was the coup de grace!


    i'm very aware of the decline before the referendum and the St Laurence Seaway impact. That was absolutely the start. The railroads left overnight once they could bypass Montreal and Montreal's impact on US and Canadian shipping vanished immediately. The banks started to leave too. But even in the 70s, Montreal still had a significant economy worthy of a major international service. It still represented a substantial role in the Canadian economy. Mirabel was built around the assumption that this economy wouldn't change.

    The referendum in the 80s was a problem too. And even though the No vote won 60-40, it still rattled businesses and with the PQ being a permanent force in Quebec, everyone knew that there would be more attempts at separation. And then when Trudeau patriated from the UK, the whole crisis with Quebec essentially refusing to participate only reinforced this. It's been a continual series of debates on separation and federalism ever since. And meanwhile businesses just left.
     
    Skywatcher
    Posts: 897
    Joined: Sat Sep 14, 2002 11:19 am

    Re: Mirabel Airport - Montreal

    Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:15 pm

    Some day YMX will be an asset-it was just 100 years too soon as it turned out. The property is absolutely huge.
    Regarding the flight of business/Anglophones with the rise of Quebecois nationalism - they both absolutely declined/shifted elsewhere and dragged down the success of YUL/YMX along with the other factors for sure. Quebec nationalists choose to downplay that part of the equation because it doesn't fit with their rosy story. It's part of the "Quebec Anglophones are the best treated minority in the world" and "business is welcome" dialogue. I would disagree with both statements in this most highly unionized/most restrictive language region of North America.
    Things have dramatically calmed down in recent years however. Quebec nationalists continue to be extremely sensitive to any criticism of their "model" and "accomplishments", particularly by outsiders. Be careful.
     
    ExMilitaryEng
    Posts: 643
    Joined: Mon May 01, 2017 7:12 pm

    Re: Mirabel Airport - Montreal

    Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:17 pm

    Like you say, in the 70s, Montreal still had the economic weight to sustain its European flights and operate YUL efficiently as a hub.

    When the Feds moved all the international flights to YMX, that effectively destroyed YUL as a hub. That's pretty obvious.

    I can not see how you can pretend that Montreal could have operated a competitive Hub after that stupid split (needing to take a 45 to 60 minutes bus ride to catch your connecting flight - ya, right!)
    Last edited by ExMilitaryEng on Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:22 pm, edited 4 times in total.
     
    klakzky123
    Posts: 688
    Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2016 4:05 am

    Re: Mirabel Airport - Montreal

    Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:23 pm

    ExMilitaryEng wrote:
    Like you say, in the 70s, Montreal still had the economic weight to sustain its European flights and operate YUL efficiently as a hub.

    When the Feds moved all the international flights to YMX, that effectively destroyed YUL as a hub. That's pretty obvious.

    I can not see how you can pretend that Montreal could have operated a competitive Hub after that stupid split (needing to take a 45 to 60 minutes bus ride to catch your connecting flight - ya, right!)


    My understanding was that YUL was supposed to close at some point with intermediate restrictions over time until it closed. And Mirabel never got its transport links that it needed as well (corruption in infrastructure there is second to none).

    Dont get me wrong, it was a dumb idea but I'm only suggesting it could have survived if events in history are different.
     
    blockski
    Posts: 693
    Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:30 pm

    Re: Mirabel Airport - Montreal

    Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:44 pm

    BostonBeau wrote:
    How does the situation between YUL and YMX compare to the situation we had in the USA between DCA and IAD? When IAD opened, basically only the long-distance flights that had been using BWI moved there, but there were very few other flights for many years. When IAD first opened, it had fewer than 100 flights a day, while DCA was handling over 600 per day. Other similarities were that IAD was too far from Washington, and that there was poor road and transit access.


    A few big differences.

    First, DCA is/was smaller than YUL. DCA is essentially a one runway operation, and that runway is fairly short. IAD was built, in part, to serve a geometric need with bigger planes that DCA simply couldn’t meet.

    Second, DCA was (and still is) operating essentially at capacity. The slots at DCA provided at least some opportunity for service at IAD. Once the perimeter rule came into effect, that was yet another market niche for IAD. YUL wasn’t facing nearly as severe constraints, hence the move to YMX was quite premature.

    Third, despite the similarities in planning, IAD isn’t quite as far from DC as YMX is from Montreal. And furthermore, IAD is located within the wealthy ‘favored quarter’ of development in the Washington region, providing a natural local market as the region grew.
     
    Thenoflyzone
    Posts: 3020
    Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2001 4:42 am

    Re: Mirabel Airport - Montreal

    Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:50 pm

    yhu wrote:
    What ever happened to the plan on creating a second horseshoe on the domestic side of the terminal. Similar to the two concourses for Transborder and International, there was originally going to be another horseshoe on the east side of the terminal for all domestic gates, eliminating the aeroquay.


    That plan got scrapped. First off, not enough room for a horseshoe in that area. Second, the planes at the end of the domestic jetty are already parked way too close to runway 06R. Anyone parked at gates 2, 4, 6, 8 and 10 have a hard time getting in/out of there due to all the departures off of runway 06R during peak times. That area easily becomes a clusterf**k when operating on the 06s.
    Last edited by Thenoflyzone on Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
    us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
     
    beechnut
    Posts: 937
    Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2004 12:27 am

    Re: Mirabel Airport - Montreal

    Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:52 pm

    Skywatcher wrote:
    Some day YMX will be an asset-it was just 100 years too soon as it turned out. The property is absolutely huge.


    Some of that property, that had been expropriated, has been returned to farmers, some 4450 hectares. That's some 11,000 acres, or 44 square kilometres, or 6.6 x 6.6 kilometres.

    That's a lot of land.

    Beech
     
    User avatar
    LockheedBBD
    Posts: 582
    Joined: Wed May 31, 2017 6:59 pm

    Re: Mirabel Airport - Montreal

    Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:06 am

    Skywatcher wrote:
    Some day YMX will be an asset-it was just 100 years too soon as it turned out. The property is absolutely huge.
    Regarding the flight of business/Anglophones with the rise of Quebecois nationalism - they both absolutely declined/shifted elsewhere and dragged down the success of YUL/YMX along with the other factors for sure. Quebec nationalists choose to downplay that part of the equation because it doesn't fit with their rosy story. It's part of the "Quebec Anglophones are the best treated minority in the world" and "business is welcome" dialogue. I would disagree with both statements in this most highly unionized/most restrictive language region of North America.
    Things have dramatically calmed down in recent years however. Quebec nationalists continue to be extremely sensitive to any criticism of their "model" and "accomplishments", particularly by outsiders. Be careful.



    It sounds like Canada's Quebec is analogous to Spain's Catalonia.

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