Because Swiss does not finish replacing its last A340 with B77W, the routes where the A340 operates are Tokyo Narita, Shanghai, Beijing and Johannesburg, there is enough demand to fly with the B77W all these routes, many Chinese airlines are interested in flying to Zurich and the market to Tokyo has increased and is even one of the most profitable routes of Swiss due to the high demand of premium passengers, and to the B77W operate, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Singapore, Bangkok, Hong Kong, Chicago in summer season , Miami in winter season and now Sao Paulo



Maybe they need more B77W for other high demand routes like New York, Boston in summer season, and possibly Delhi

I think we will see Swiss ordering the A350 sooner than later, with 30 or more A350 they can replace the A330, A340 and in the future B77W.

I don't think they will order more B77W or B77X because for some roues is OK but I think it is way too big for many routes they currently have, however the mix of A359 and A351 could do all the job with one fleet and making things easy. Swiss already place orders for A32Neo so getting the A350 will be a good choice.

migair54 wrote:

I think we will see Swiss ordering the A350 sooner than later, with 30 or more A350 they can replace the A330, A340 and in the future B77W.

I agree with you on the A350 becoming part of Swiss' fleet at some point, though I always thought that the A330-900 would fit well for them when it comes time to replace the A330-300s (still a good while away).

aemoreira1981 wrote:

The A330 can operate to ORD. That said, I see a top-up order at LH going to LX, to replace both the A343s and B77Ws (the B77Ws would move to LH to retire the B744s). That said, there is a question of what replaces the A343s at Edelweiss.

You're right. But as we know, their A330-300 are still quite young. Maybe Edelweiss could replace their A343 with A339, depending on range.

migair54 wrote:

I don't think they will order more B77W or B77X because for some roues is OK but I think it is way too big for many routes they currently have, .

I do not think Singapore and Hong Kong are the main financial centers of Asia the demand of business passengers in very large SQ flies with the A380 and CX restart its operations in 2015 once with the B77W, tourism in Thailand is very large and high demand Thai always operate large aircraft on this route it was time for Swiss to increase capacity, LAX and SFO are routes of equal high demand even as UA started a seasonal flight SFO-ZRH, the B77W if key to Swiss, the economy in China, Japan and India is growing and growing stronger, and routes such as Shanghai, Tokyo, Boston and Delhi if they need the capacity of the B77W, do not rule out the A350 in the future is essential for routes such as Beijing, Johannesburg, New York, Miami, Mumbai, Dubai and open new routes

The NEO would give them the range for just about anything, if capacity isn't a priority. With 77Ws still coming in, I could see them ordering the A339.

Will be part of a larger LH Group order to address future fleet needs at LH, LX, OS, etc. I predict a split order of B789/J and A359/K, about 15-20 each for all three airlines.

The (remaining) 343 are newly refurbished and will not be replaced any time soon. There will be a group-wide order for 2022-2026 for all of LH Group 343, 772(OS), maybe the oldest 333 and EW's 332 (they are leased).

It is probably fair to say the A340-300 gets a lot of criticism in this era of big twins but as a passenger it is one of my favorite (older) long haul planes. I like Swiss, I travelled JNB - ZRH - JNB on Swiss last month. It’s spacious, comfortable, quiet and the 2 + 4 + 2 seating is great when traveling with a partner. I much prefer this to the 777 and the possibility of Swiss one day maybe using the A350 on this route is something I can get excited about.

DUSZRH wrote:

The (remaining) 343 are newly refurbished and will not be replaced any time soon. There will be a group-wide order for 2022-2026 for all of LH Group 343, 772(OS), maybe the oldest 333 and EW's 332 (they are leased).

Yes, that way they will get a much better price and also they can standarize the different fleets, It is a wise decision, however if they want to start getting the planes by 2022 they will have to place to the order soon, actually I don't know how long is the line of airlines waiting for B787, A350 or B77X but I think we are talking about a couple of years at least.

holzmann wrote:

Will be part of a larger LH Group order to address future fleet needs at LH, LX, OS, etc. I predict a split order of B789/J and A359/K, about 15-20 each for all three airlines.

Why to split the order?? I think getting same plane in different sizes and configurations is better option, specially if we are talking about only 40-50 planes.

RainerBoeing777 wrote:

I do not think Singapore and Hong Kong are the main financial centers of Asia the demand of business passengers in very large SQ flies with the A380 and CX restart its operations in 2015 once with the B77W, tourism in Thailand is very large and high demand Thai always operate large aircraft on this route it was time for Swiss to increase capacity, LAX and SFO are routes of equal high demand even as UA started a seasonal flight SFO-ZRH, the B77W if key to Swiss, the economy in China, Japan and India is growing and growing stronger, and routes such as Shanghai, Tokyo, Boston and Delhi if they need the capacity of the B77W, do not rule out the A350 in the future is essential for routes such as Beijing, Johannesburg, New York, Miami, Mumbai, Dubai and open new routes

For that routes where they want high capacity the A350-1000 is almost the same size of the B77W and they can always swap between 900 and 1000 if seasonal changes are required. I just said that having A350 is great because with 1 aircraft type they can replace the 3 types they currently operate.

Heavierthanair wrote:

In addition to replacing the A343 Swiss has an issue with two separate pilot groups with substantially different pay scales. The B77W's are flown by pilots that operated short haul aircraft before transitioning to the B77W whereas the A333 and A343 pilots are the intercontinental pilot group that went through a traditional career and get paid much higher salaries. The two pilot groups do not even talk to each other if they are staying at the same outstation. Presumably that issue has to be resolved before new long range aircraft are added to the fleet.

I did not know that one, it's a good story but maybe the management is happy to have the pilot divided, divide and conquer, you never know.

Heavierthanair wrote:

G'day

In addition to replacing the A343 Swiss has an issue with two separate pilot groups with substantially different pay scales. The B77W's are flown by pilots that operated short haul aircraft before transitioning to the B77W whereas the A333 and A343 pilots are the intercontinental pilot group that went through a traditional career and get paid much higher salaries. The two pilot groups do not even talk to each other if they are staying at the same outstation. Presumably that issue has to be resolved before new long range aircraft are added to the fleet.

Cheers

Peter

Interesting, did not know that, thanks.

migair54 wrote:

I think we will see Swiss ordering the A350 sooner than later, with 30 or more A350 they can replace the A330, A340 and in the future B77W.

Ordering B77Ws, an entirely new type for Swiss, as an interim solution for switching back to Airbus only a couple of years later would be nonsense. Or other way round, if they would plan with the A350, it would have been nonsense to order the B77W.

I think they will switch their longhaul aircraft to Boeing and order 787-9 and maybe -10 down the road with one pool of 777/787 longhaul pilots. I also think a small fleet of 777-9 could work for Swiss.

Heavierthanair wrote:

The B77W's are flown by pilots that operated short haul aircraft before transitioning to the B77W whereas the A333 and A343 pilots are the intercontinental pilot group that went through a traditional career and get paid much higher salaries.

At least the 777 chief pilot used to fly the A330/A340 before switching to the 777.

Ronaldo747 wrote:

Ordering B77Ws, an entirely new type for Swiss, as an interim solution for switching back to Airbus only a couple of years later would be nonsense. Or other way round, if they would plan with the A350, it would have been nonsense to order the B77W.

There is no airline on the planet that actually orders planes with such a mentality.

"Oh, I switched to Boeing, so I guess I have to stay with them now...."

No, just no. That's how AvGeeks think. Not airlines.

migair54 wrote:

DUSZRH wrote:

The (remaining) 343 are newly refurbished and will not be replaced any time soon. There will be a group-wide order for 2022-2026 for all of LH Group 343, 772(OS), maybe the oldest 333 and EW's 332 (they are leased).

Yes, that way they will get a much better price and also they can standarize the different fleets, It is a wise decision, however if they want to start getting the planes by 2022 they will have to place to the order soon, actually I don't know how long is the line of airlines waiting for B787, A350 or B77X but I think we are talking about a couple of years at least.

holzmann wrote:

Will be part of a larger LH Group order to address future fleet needs at LH, LX, OS, etc. I predict a split order of B789/J and A359/K, about 15-20 each for all three airlines.

Why to split the order?? I think getting same plane in different sizes and configurations is better option, specially if we are talking about only 40-50 planes.

RainerBoeing777 wrote:

I do not think Singapore and Hong Kong are the main financial centers of Asia the demand of business passengers in very large SQ flies with the A380 and CX restart its operations in 2015 once with the B77W, tourism in Thailand is very large and high demand Thai always operate large aircraft on this route it was time for Swiss to increase capacity, LAX and SFO are routes of equal high demand even as UA started a seasonal flight SFO-ZRH, the B77W if key to Swiss, the economy in China, Japan and India is growing and growing stronger, and routes such as Shanghai, Tokyo, Boston and Delhi if they need the capacity of the B77W, do not rule out the A350 in the future is essential for routes such as Beijing, Johannesburg, New York, Miami, Mumbai, Dubai and open new routes

For that routes where they want high capacity the A350-1000 is almost the same size of the B77W and they can always swap between 900 and 1000 if seasonal changes are required. I just said that having A350 is great because with 1 aircraft type they can replace the 3 types they currently operate.

Heavierthanair wrote:

In addition to replacing the A343 Swiss has an issue with two separate pilot groups with substantially different pay scales. The B77W's are flown by pilots that operated short haul aircraft before transitioning to the B77W whereas the A333 and A343 pilots are the intercontinental pilot group that went through a traditional career and get paid much higher salaries. The two pilot groups do not even talk to each other if they are staying at the same outstation. Presumably that issue has to be resolved before new long range aircraft are added to the fleet.

I did not know that one, it's a good story but maybe the management is happy to have the pilot divided, divide and conquer, you never know.

Why split an order? Simple, LH Tecnic receives great prices on drawings and parts as part of any order. It is why they bought both CEO engines and both NEO engines.

Lightsaber

Ronaldo747 wrote:

migair54 wrote:

I think we will see Swiss ordering the A350 sooner than later, with 30 or more A350 they can replace the A330, A340 and in the future B77W.

Ordering B77Ws, an entirely new type for Swiss, as an interim solution for switching back to Airbus only a couple of years later would be nonsense. Or other way round, if they would plan with the A350, it would have been nonsense to order the B77W.

I think they will switch their longhaul aircraft to Boeing and order 787-9 and maybe -10 down the road with one pool of 777/787 longhaul pilots. I also think a small fleet of 777-9 could work for Swiss.

Heavierthanair wrote:

The B77W's are flown by pilots that operated short haul aircraft before transitioning to the B77W whereas the A333 and A343 pilots are the intercontinental pilot group that went through a traditional career and get paid much higher salaries.

At least the 777 chief pilot used to fly the A330/A340 before switching to the 777.

I think VS ordered the A330 because they need something until they can get B787's,

lightsaber wrote:

Why split an order? Simple, LH Tecnic receives great prices on drawings and parts as part of any order. It is why they bought both CEO engines and both NEO engines.

But getting two engine types for the same fleet is not like having 2 totally different fleets, maybe for LH technics is better that way, but many other factors to consider.

lightsaber wrote:

migair54 wrote:

DUSZRH wrote:

The (remaining) 343 are newly refurbished and will not be replaced any time soon. There will be a group-wide order for 2022-2026 for all of LH Group 343, 772(OS), maybe the oldest 333 and EW's 332 (they are leased).

Yes, that way they will get a much better price and also they can standarize the different fleets, It is a wise decision, however if they want to start getting the planes by 2022 they will have to place to the order soon, actually I don't know how long is the line of airlines waiting for B787, A350 or B77X but I think we are talking about a couple of years at least.

holzmann wrote:

Will be part of a larger LH Group order to address future fleet needs at LH, LX, OS, etc. I predict a split order of B789/J and A359/K, about 15-20 each for all three airlines.

Why to split the order?? I think getting same plane in different sizes and configurations is better option, specially if we are talking about only 40-50 planes.

RainerBoeing777 wrote:

I do not think Singapore and Hong Kong are the main financial centers of Asia the demand of business passengers in very large SQ flies with the A380 and CX restart its operations in 2015 once with the B77W, tourism in Thailand is very large and high demand Thai always operate large aircraft on this route it was time for Swiss to increase capacity, LAX and SFO are routes of equal high demand even as UA started a seasonal flight SFO-ZRH, the B77W if key to Swiss, the economy in China, Japan and India is growing and growing stronger, and routes such as Shanghai, Tokyo, Boston and Delhi if they need the capacity of the B77W, do not rule out the A350 in the future is essential for routes such as Beijing, Johannesburg, New York, Miami, Mumbai, Dubai and open new routes

For that routes where they want high capacity the A350-1000 is almost the same size of the B77W and they can always swap between 900 and 1000 if seasonal changes are required. I just said that having A350 is great because with 1 aircraft type they can replace the 3 types they currently operate.

Heavierthanair wrote:

In addition to replacing the A343 Swiss has an issue with two separate pilot groups with substantially different pay scales. The B77W's are flown by pilots that operated short haul aircraft before transitioning to the B77W whereas the A333 and A343 pilots are the intercontinental pilot group that went through a traditional career and get paid much higher salaries. The two pilot groups do not even talk to each other if they are staying at the same outstation. Presumably that issue has to be resolved before new long range aircraft are added to the fleet.

I did not know that one, it's a good story but maybe the management is happy to have the pilot divided, divide and conquer, you never know.

Why split an order? Simple, LH Tecnic receives great prices on drawings and parts as part of any order. It is why they bought both CEO engines and both NEO engines.

Lightsaber

And to be diplomatic and to keep both sides honest. Seems to be the trend. There is a mysterious reason why the 787 remains listed on the Boeing-Lufthansa customer page: http://www.boeing.com/commercial/customers/lufthansa/

migair54 wrote:

I think we will see Swiss ordering the A350 sooner than later, with 30 or more A350 they can replace the A330, A340 and in the future B77W.

I don't think they will order more B77W or B77X because for some roues is OK but I think it is way too big for many routes they currently have, however the mix of A359 and A351 could do all the job with one fleet and making things easy. Swiss already place orders for A32Neo so getting the A350 will be a good choice.

Think they soon may ordered up to 50 new longhaul aircraft which would replace their A330, A340 ASAP. Maybe an A350 HGW is a good suggestion. But not confirmed yet.

Heavierthanair wrote:

G'day

In addition to replacing the A343 Swiss has an issue with two separate pilot groups with substantially different pay scales. The B77W's are flown by pilots that operated short haul aircraft before transitioning to the B77W whereas the A333 and A343 pilots are the intercontinental pilot group that went through a traditional career and get paid much higher salaries. The two pilot groups do not even talk to each other if they are staying at the same outstation. Presumably that issue has to be resolved before new long range aircraft are added to the fleet.

Cheers

Peter

That's a thing of the past. Both pilot groups are in one union since more than a year and from April 1st on there is one single contract for all pilots within Swiss with only minor differences left in salary between the former two groups. And the fleet you are flying on does not depend anymore on the group you have been in the older days.

mjoelnir wrote:

SQ789 wrote:

migair54 wrote:

I think we will see Swiss ordering the A350 sooner than later, with 30 or more A350 they can replace the A330, A340 and in the future B77W.

I don't think they will order more B77W or B77X because for some roues is OK but I think it is way too big for many routes they currently have, however the mix of A359 and A351 could do all the job with one fleet and making things easy. Swiss already place orders for A32Neo so getting the A350 will be a good choice.

Think they soon may ordered up to 50 new longhaul aircraft which would replace their A330, A340 ASAP. Maybe an A350 HGW is a good suggestion. But not confirmed yet.

I do not expect the Lufthansa group to retire rather young frames without a good reason. I expect Swiss to use all their current wide bodies quite a while longer.

I agree, especially when seeing how old OS widebody fleet is. Not that I'm saying LX will keep theirs for as long as OS but they certainly won't be retiring the 330s and 340s in the near future.

Purely from a passenger point of view, a switch from an A340 to a 777 is a retrograde step and I hope they don't do it.

s.p.a.s. wrote:

Or maybe they can surprise everybody else and go the 787-9 path...

I honestly wouldn't be surprised, as the 777 and the 787 have the same type rating and the 787 has about the same capacity, but I'd say that they'll go with the -8.

How about a few readily available and relatively cheap used 77W to add to the fleet, now they have experience with the type- Happened with the A340, I actually expect them to head down that road!

Ronaldo747 wrote:

Ordering B77Ws, an entirely new type for Swiss, as an interim solution for switching back to Airbus only a couple of years later would be nonsense. Or other way round, if they would plan with the A350, it would have been nonsense to order the B77W.

You, like many, put way too much importance on fleet commonality.

In reality, fleet commonality is a sideshow. By far the largest cost and most important consideration in fleet decisions for airlines is the cost of capital, even before fuel burn savings. A brand new aircraft has cost of capital much higher than any potential fuel burn savings. Commonality features even further down the list.

Swiss is bound to have gotten a pretty sweet deal for the 77Ws because Boeing needed to sell some to bridge the gap to the 777X. So with the Ws, Swiss got the best of both worlds: better operating economics and acceptable cost of capital increases compared to the A340s.

When it comes time for another fleet decision, that decision will be made in the exact same pattern. Commonality is only a factor that can sway a pretty much all other things equal gridlock for one side. Not more.

cougar15 wrote:

How about a few readily available and relatively cheap used 77W to add to the fleet, now they have experience with the type- Happened with the A340, I actually expect them to head down that road!

If configured in the same way as their new 77Ws, that would represent a 15-seat increase in C and a whooping 107-seat jump in Y. I don't believe all of the LX's route can sustain these amount of seats dumped into the market without serious profitability pressure.

Michael

Since refurbishment of the remaining 343 fleet will commence this summer (new interior like their 77W), the ROI must have been calculated for atleast a couple of years.
Nowadays, those great 4-holers are deployed to JNB, NRT and PVG with frequent occasional operations also to PEK, BOS, EWR and GRU. Surely, the first three above mentioned regular destinations as well as GRU are quite though for the 333, but a few more 77W frames would certainly enables them to switch all of these to 77W. Give the sales and marketing guys the right tools and certain freedom and they would also sell this capacity

I could see them getting either 787-9's or A350-900's to replace the Airbus widebodies. The A350 would also allow them to increase capacity.

PM wrote:

Purely from a passenger point of view, a switch from an A340 to a 777 is a retrograde step and I hope they don't do it.

Sorry, but you’re a couple years too late on this one. They’ve already replaced a number if their A340s with 77Ws.

NYCVIE wrote:

mjoelnir wrote:

SQ789 wrote:

Think they soon may ordered up to 50 new longhaul aircraft which would replace their A330, A340 ASAP. Maybe an A350 HGW is a good suggestion. But not confirmed yet.

I do not expect the Lufthansa group to retire rather young frames without a good reason. I expect Swiss to use all their current wide bodies quite a while longer.

I agree, especially when seeing how old OS widebody fleet is. Not that I'm saying LX will keep theirs for as long as OS but they certainly won't be retiring the 330s and 340s in the near future.

Maybe right, but OS is still operate the oldest 767, 777 for their long haul fleet.

I expect that in the 2020s Swiss´ (currently still relatively young) A340s will be replaced by A350s. Maybe even the 77Ws (an oddball in the LH concern fleet). If not by A350s, I expect Swiss 77Ws to be replaced by some of the 777-9s LH has on order. I doubt those 77Ws will last much longer than 12 years in Swiss fleet.

Don't see 789 at LX, but more possible at OS or EW imho. I would think touted A330 Neo order from LH will include LX. Wouldn't hold my breath on 359 at the mo given the young age of the 77W fleet. A330 Neo mid you could also be bound for OS and EW with no 787 at all.....

LX015 wrote:

PM wrote:

Purely from a passenger point of view, a switch from an A340 to a 777 is a retrograde step and I hope they don't do it.

Sorry, but you’re a couple years too late on this one. They’ve already replaced a number if their A340s with 77Ws.

Indeed. But this thread is about whether they will add any more. I do hope not.

Can anyone tell me the difference between "Swiss International Air Lines" and "Swiss Global Air Lines"? Is this some corporate trick to reduce staff pay?

LAX772LR wrote:

Ronaldo747 wrote:

Ordering B77Ws, an entirely new type for Swiss, as an interim solution for switching back to Airbus only a couple of years later would be nonsense. Or other way round, if they would plan with the A350, it would have been nonsense to order the B77W.

There is no airline on the planet that actually orders planes with such a mentality.

"Oh, I switched to Boeing, so I guess I have to stay with them now...."

No, just no. That's how AvGeeks think. Not airlines.

What about training costs, cert. rating and so?

iseeyyc wrote:

Can anyone tell me the difference between "Swiss International Air Lines" and "Swiss Global Air Lines"? Is this some corporate trick to reduce staff pay?

Yep. Fun fact: "Swiss Global Air Lines" started off as "Swiss European Airlines"--so the regional arm of "Swiss International Air Lines". Its gone from flying Avro RJ100s to the current mix of CS100 and 77W.

A339 would be the perfect aircraft to replace the A340-300 for Swiss.

Etheereal wrote:

LAX772LR wrote:

Ronaldo747 wrote:

Ordering B77Ws, an entirely new type for Swiss, as an interim solution for switching back to Airbus only a couple of years later would be nonsense. Or other way round, if they would plan with the A350, it would have been nonsense to order the B77W.

There is no airline on the planet that actually orders planes with such a mentality.

"Oh, I switched to Boeing, so I guess I have to stay with them now...."

No, just no. That's how AvGeeks think. Not airlines.

What about training costs, cert. rating and so?

Didn't seem to be an issue when switching to Boeing, why would it be an issue when switching back?

aemoreira1981 wrote:

The A330 can operate to ORD. That said, I see a top-up order at LH going to LX, to replace both the A343s and B77Ws (the B77Ws would move to LH to retire the B744s). That said, there is a question of what replaces the A343s at Edelweiss.

LH are already ordering 779s. Why LH would want 77Ws is beyond me.

NeBaNi wrote:

Etheereal wrote:

LAX772LR wrote:

There is no airline on the planet that actually orders planes with such a mentality.

"Oh, I switched to Boeing, so I guess I have to stay with them now...."

No, just no. That's how AvGeeks think. Not airlines.

What about training costs, cert. rating and so?

Didn't seem to be an issue when switching to Boeing, why would it be an issue when switching back?

Afaik when you switch from one airframe to another as A/B, you have to be re-trained because the systems dont work the same, specially with the FBW technology.

globetrotter94 wrote:

iseeyyc wrote:

Can anyone tell me the difference between "Swiss International Air Lines" and "Swiss Global Air Lines"? Is this some corporate trick to reduce staff pay?

Yep. Fun fact: "Swiss Global Air Lines" started off as "Swiss European Airlines"--so the regional arm of "Swiss International Air Lines". Its gone from flying Avro RJ100s to the current mix of CS100 and 77W.

Until now those were also legally two different airlines as Swiss International and Swiss Global operated under their own AOC (Air Operator Certificate). Just now in April the process to operate under one AOC will start and from July on all operation will be under the common name "Swiss International Air Lines"

787-9 makes most sense for Swiss as they share a common type rating with the 777W. LX is a relatively small airline and they need to have as much commonality as possible.
777W (maybe 777-9 later)
787-9

A320NEO and A321NEO

CSERIES

columba wrote:

787-9 makes most sense for Swiss as they share a common type rating with the 777W. LX is a relatively small airline and they need to have as much commonality as possible.
777W (maybe 777-9 later)
787-9

A320NEO and A321NEO

CSERIES

The same could be said for A350 which has the commonality with A320neo series, especially if 77W is not staying for too long as suggested.

Michael

columba wrote:

787-9 makes most sense for Swiss as they share a common type rating with the 777W. LX is a relatively small airline and they need to have as much commonality as possible.
777W (maybe 777-9 later)
787-9

A320NEO and A321NEO

CSERIES

its curious that commonality among majority of the fleet strongly favore Airbus. In your logic:-) so I dont undestand why 787?

eamondzhang wrote:

The same could be said for A350 which has the commonality with A320neo series, especially if 77W is not staying for too long as suggested.

Michael

They would have a common pool of long haul pilots