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The news that came across the wire here in Hawaii on Friday the 15th of March: "Southwest Airlines is given permit for space at Daniel K. Inouye International"

Here is the link: http://www.khon2.com/news/local-news/so ... 1053766781

Main points:
Its a month-to-month permit
Southwest did not concurrently answer when reservations or service would start.
Many other articles used previous reporting items to add fluff to their article, considering that Hawaii Dept. of Transportation - Airports didn't elaborate and, in essence, Southwest said nothing new

A question that I have kept asking:
I keep on hearing anecdotally that HNL is reaching capacity and already has problems with planes being asked to wait on the tarmac after landing because of lack of gate space. Maybe that is a bit overblown because at times it happens for numerous reasons. But the fact that the airport, especially in the morning is jammed packed with the Japan flights coming in early along with waves of planes coming into Honolulu from the West Coast starting at around 11 a.m. and with East Coast flight, that busyness continues almost all the way past "pau hana" (end of work) time in Honolulu. Has there been any development in finding space for Southwest to have at HNL with sufficient amount of gates to start multi-city to Honolulu operations?

And,,,,GO!

This is good news. Does this mean that they are now paying the lease? 20K a month would be a lot of $ for an airport you don't serve (yet).

At any rate, we are that much closer to an official start date announcement!

Gate space is scarce several times during the day. Based on my observations the worst times time of the day is between 11A-2P. Many of the APAC flights are still on the ground and the first bank of mainland arrivals come in. I’ve seen aircraft idling on taxiways A and Z between W an K by the north handstands for over 30 minutes after arrival.

To be competitive WN will most likely have to operate at least 2 frequencies a day on the core West Coast markets. I’m sure WN would want flights operating in that first arrival bank which would further complicate the issue.

Unfortunately, relief is still years away. And seeing as the Mauka Concourse is a state project, could be a decade away.

77H

Last time I looked there next schedule release is May 31st, which is later than usually. My thought is there waiting 3 weeks later than usual to try and announce Hawaii

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

Hmm. What is something WN could do to immediately open up a bunch of Real Estate at the Airport? Don’t worry, I’m sure they’ll think of something.

I think I agree with ibthebigd, they will announce HNL at the end of May. And I'm sure they will start flying as early at the second week in June. It's not going to be hard for them to sell tickets that fast. I think we can expect to see LAX-HNL, OAK-HNL, and LAS-HNL at first. While LAX sometime has 20x daily flights to HNL, OAK and LAS typically only have 2 or 3, so both of those markets are completely open.

Isn't there room near the inter-island terminal? Southwest could go back to its roots with a sans jet-way operation.

aviationjunky wrote:

I think I agree with ibthebigd, they will announce HNL at the end of May. And I'm sure they will start flying as early at the second week in June. It's not going to be hard for them to sell tickets that fast. I think we can expect to see LAX-HNL, OAK-HNL, and LAS-HNL at first. While LAX sometime has 20x daily flights to HNL, OAK and LAS typically only have 2 or 3, so both of those markets are completely open.

LAS-HNL is not going to be in first round of routes. California. California. California. OAK and SAN probably to start.

Is there not an option to hardstand? Put the Wiki-Wiki's to use as they begin to dwindle down from their historical assignment.

aviationjunky wrote:

I think we can expect to see LAX-HNL, OAK-HNL, and LAS-HNL at first. While LAX sometime has 20x daily flights to HNL, OAK and LAS typically only have 2 or 3, so both of those markets are completely open.

LAS will probably not be one of the first cities.

Gary Kelly just spoke about the Hawaii startup to Las Vegas media last month.

Southwest is still waiting for federal clearance to launch flights to Hawaii by the end of this year, but Kelly said initial service will be limited to one or two yet-to-be-determined airports in California.

Southwest has no immediate plans for nonstop flights between Hawaii and McCarran International, but Kelly noted that Las Vegas is a one-hour hop to most California airports.

“We have such great service between California and Las Vegas, so I think we’ll have very nice itineraries to and from Hawaii and here as well,” Kelly said. “I think that’s definitely something to look forward to more in 2019 or 2020 as we continue to grow our presence in Hawaii.”

http://www.reviewjournal.com/business/southwest-airlines-ceo-sees-growth-for-carrier-in-las-vegas/

From a marketplace prospective, just what would WN offer by flying to Hawaii that isn’t already captured by every other carrier? Everyone with a 737NG now flies to Hawaii, WN’s fares are no longer low enough to count as an LCC (certainly couldn’t be on ETOPS routes), and operating a route solely for the purpose of reward redemptions won’t make anyone money.

Aside from the prestige of flying to Hawaii, there is little sense in WN operating those routes given their business model. They’re going to lose money and then lose face when they try to back out of it later.

DarthLobster wrote:

From a marketplace prospective, just what would WN offer by flying to Hawaii that isn’t already captured by every other carrier? Everyone with a 737NG now flies to Hawaii, WN’s fares are no longer low enough to count as an LCC (certainly couldn’t be on ETOPS routes), and operating a route solely for the purpose of reward redemptions won’t make anyone money.

Aside from the prestige of flying to Hawaii, there is little sense in WN operating those routes given their business model. They’re going to lose money and then lose face when they try to back out of it later.

Although most will disageee, I think they are too late to the Hawaii party. I don’t think there’s much gain to be had. Sure they’ll fool their fare share of people into thinking they are the more “affordable” option since people who tend to fly WN don’t compare prices. I just feel there’s too much competetion for them to benefit much. If they stick to secondary airports to Hawaii like SNA/SJC/SMF where the completion is less, that might be the better play.

aviationjunky wrote:

I think I agree with ibthebigd, they will announce HNL at the end of May. And I'm sure they will start flying as early at the second week in June.

And I'm sure we won't - no way, not by summer. The airline hasn't received ETOPS certification yet, the crews don't even have a training program in place (let alone getting trained) and the maintenance folks have yet to get a contract that allows it.

The best case would be very late this year.

DarthLobster wrote:

From a marketplace prospective, just what would WN offer by flying to Hawaii that isn’t already captured by every other carrier? Everyone with a 737NG now flies to Hawaii, WN’s fares are no longer low enough to count as an LCC (certainly couldn’t be on ETOPS routes), and operating a route solely for the purpose of reward redemptions won’t make anyone money.

Aside from the prestige of flying to Hawaii, there is little sense in WN operating those routes given their business model. They’re going to lose money and then lose face when they try to back out of it later.

This recent article hits directly at your question. In a nutshell - credit cards. So no, I doubt "losing face" will be an issue.

When Southwest Airlines evaluates routes, it researches at all the data you expect, including how many travelers fly on existing flights, and the average fares they pay. But for leisure opportunities, it often examines something else — potential credit card applications.

For U.S carriers, credit card partnerships are big business, with banks locking up airlines in multi-year deals worth billions. Companies like Chase and American Express buy points and miles from airlines and use them to reward their big-spenders, allowing travelers with the right cards to fly “free.” It complements the traditional free ticket approach in which Southwest rewards its flying customers with points. But credit card deals are so lucrative some airlines are ambivalent about whether a customer pays with points or cash.

“The credit card is core to the airline business,” Andrew Watterson, Southwest’s chief revenue officer, said in an interview.

In a research note in February, Joseph DeNardi, an analyst with Stifel, estimated Southwest earned roughly $2.8 billion last year from selling miles to Chase, an increase of roughly $544 million, compared to the prior year. In the note, he said all carriers are benefiting as “high margin, less cyclical revenue continues to be transferred, en masse, from credit card issuers to airlines.”

https://skift.com/2018/03/11/southwest- ... -sign-ups/

barney captain wrote:

aviationjunky wrote:

I think I agree with ibthebigd, they will announce HNL at the end of May. And I'm sure they will start flying as early at the second week in June.

And I'm sure we won't - no way, not by summer. The airline hasn't received ETOPS certification yet, the crews don't even have a training program in place (let alone getting trained) and the maintenance folks have yet to get a contract that allows it.

The best case would be very late this year.

Given the space issues at HNL, I wonder whether this move is more of a relatively cheap insurance policy (ensuring that lack of space does not preclude entry into HNL at some point) than evidence of a particular timeframe.

WN732 wrote:

This is good news. Does this mean that they are now paying the lease? 20K a month would be a lot of $ for an airport you don't serve (yet).

At any rate, we are that much closer to an official start date announcement!

Hardly. 20k a month is effectively zero for an enterprise of WN's size.

Theyd pay much more to keep their foot in the door if they are serious about the market.

flyguy84 wrote:

DarthLobster wrote:

From a marketplace prospective, just what would WN offer by flying to Hawaii that isn’t already captured by every other carrier? Everyone with a 737NG now flies to Hawaii, WN’s fares are no longer low enough to count as an LCC (certainly couldn’t be on ETOPS routes), and operating a route solely for the purpose of reward redemptions won’t make anyone money.

Aside from the prestige of flying to Hawaii, there is little sense in WN operating those routes given their business model. They’re going to lose money and then lose face when they try to back out of it later.

Although most will disageee, I think they are too late to the Hawaii party. I don’t think there’s much gain to be had. Sure they’ll fool their fare share of people into thinking they are the more “affordable” option since people who tend to fly WN don’t compare prices. I just feel there’s too much competetion for them to benefit much. If they stick to secondary airports to Hawaii like SNA/SJC/SMF where the completion is less, that might be the better play.

WN has the largest FF base in California. you both speak like they are a niche player. They don't have to "fool" any passengers. They are already the largest domestic airline. Hawaii is not a mileage redemption route, fares are not rock bottom.

To me, the main problem with HNL is the security. It is from hell every single time I have ever gone through there as a passenger.

"hell" as in queue length, or "hell" as in thorough?

aviationjunky wrote:

I think I agree with ibthebigd, they will announce HNL at the end of May. And I'm sure they will start flying as early at the second week in June. It's not going to be hard for them to sell tickets that fast. I think we can expect to see LAX-HNL, OAK-HNL, and LAS-HNL at first. While LAX sometime has 20x daily flights to HNL, OAK and LAS typically only have 2 or 3, so both of those markets are completely open.

Ahem! SJC.

If I remember correctly, I read somewhere that they're building a whole new terminal building at HNL...

flyguy84 wrote:

DarthLobster wrote:

From a marketplace prospective, just what would WN offer by flying to Hawaii that isn’t already captured by every other carrier? Everyone with a 737NG now flies to Hawaii, WN’s fares are no longer low enough to count as an LCC (certainly couldn’t be on ETOPS routes), and operating a route solely for the purpose of reward redemptions won’t make anyone money.

Of course "fare" is not what you actually pay when you fly a ULCC now that airlines have "unbundled" their services. However WN has not done that. And in the end you will end up paying the same or only marginally less than a WN fare.

exFWAOONW wrote:

Isn't there room near the inter-island terminal? Southwest could go back to its roots with a sans jet-way operation.

The terminal that your probably thinking of is the current "commuter terminal" that is north of the interisland terminal that is 100% used by Hawaiian. The Commuter terminal is scheduled to be torn down and rebuilt as the Mauka extension to the Interisland terminal. Unless H-DOT-A decides that a temporary solution would be to use those "baloon" buildings that you saw at LAX throughout their expansion in the early 1980's, I am not sure if that area will be available to park any plane, let alone the amount that Southwest would like to fly into Hawaii.

FA9295 wrote:

If I remember correctly, I read somewhere that they're building a whole new terminal building at HNL...

H-DOT-A is actually ambitious and have 2 terminals planned. The first is the Mauka Extension to the interisland terminal on the Ewa side of the airport. The other one just announced is the demolition of the Diamond Head section of the terminal (gates 6-13) and rebuild that whole complex with a wrap around terminal that will accommodate a healthy increase in gate space for that section.

Keep in mind while all this is happening, gate space will be reduced as the demolition of space occurs. So the question about whether there is enough space for airlines currently flying to Hawaii comes up, let alone any new player that wants to start service.

77H wrote:

Gate space is scarce several times during the day. Based on my observations the worst times time of the day is between 11A-2P. Many of the APAC flights are still on the ground and the first bank of mainland arrivals come in. I’ve seen aircraft idling on taxiways A and Z between W an K by the north handstands for over 30 minutes after arrival.

This would be the times that I could see Southwest flights coming to Hawaii. The fact that the airline is adamant that there are no overnights or red-eyes, to keep within the schedule that Southwest wants to operate the flights would need to leave no later than 2 p.m. to arrive in the west coast before midnight. They will be jockying for space that other airlines are already claiming space on, including the wide ranging amount of flights that Alaska has at that time.

WPvsMW wrote:

"hell" as in queue length, or "hell" as in thorough?

Que length. Security is painfully slow in the Diamondhead concourse. It seems like it is because of a lack of security lanes. I wouldn’t really call it TSAs fault. The terminal was designed well before TSA. There’s literally no more room for more TSA lines. The current line is sandwiched between 2 concrete walls.

flyguy84 wrote:

DarthLobster wrote:

From a marketplace prospective, just what would WN offer by flying to Hawaii that isn’t already captured by every other carrier? Everyone with a 737NG now flies to Hawaii, WN’s fares are no longer low enough to count as an LCC (certainly couldn’t be on ETOPS routes), and operating a route solely for the purpose of reward redemptions won’t make anyone money.

Aside from the prestige of flying to Hawaii, there is little sense in WN operating those routes given their business model. They’re going to lose money and then lose face when they try to back out of it later.

Although most will disageee, I think they are too late to the Hawaii party. I don’t think there’s much gain to be had. Sure they’ll fool their fare share of people into thinking they are the more “affordable” option since people who tend to fly WN don’t compare prices. I just feel there’s too much competetion for them to benefit much. If they stick to secondary airports to Hawaii like SNA/SJC/SMF where the completion is less, that might be the better play.

The problem is, nearly all the secondary airports that can sustain service to Hawaii already have at least 2 carriers operating the routes. And neither is going to idly cede market share to WN. As for the primary markets, competition is even more fierce. WN would be going up against long established airlines that have the option to use lower CASM aircraft like the 753 and high density WBs.

I believe UA is the only airline that operates an aircraft capable of operating SNA-Hawaii with a reasonable payload, an ETOPS certified 73G. My understanding is that neither AS nor WN have plans to ETOPS certify the 73G.

77H

DarthLobster wrote:

From a marketplace prospective, just what would WN offer by flying to Hawaii that isn’t already captured by every other carrier? Everyone with a 737NG now flies to Hawaii, WN’s fares are no longer low enough to count as an LCC (certainly couldn’t be on ETOPS routes), and operating a route solely for the purpose of reward redemptions won’t make anyone money.

Aside from the prestige of flying to Hawaii, there is little sense in WN operating those routes given their business model. They’re going to lose money and then lose face when they try to back out of it later.

What other kind of routes are there, other than 180' ETOPS?

77H wrote:

flyguy84 wrote:

DarthLobster wrote:

From a marketplace prospective, just what would WN offer by flying to Hawaii that isn’t already captured by every other carrier? Everyone with a 737NG now flies to Hawaii, WN’s fares are no longer low enough to count as an LCC (certainly couldn’t be on ETOPS routes), and operating a route solely for the purpose of reward redemptions won’t make anyone money.

Aside from the prestige of flying to Hawaii, there is little sense in WN operating those routes given their business model. They’re going to lose money and then lose face when they try to back out of it later.

Although most will disageee, I think they are too late to the Hawaii party. I don’t think there’s much gain to be had. Sure they’ll fool their fare share of people into thinking they are the more “affordable” option since people who tend to fly WN don’t compare prices. I just feel there’s too much competetion for them to benefit much. If they stick to secondary airports to Hawaii like SNA/SJC/SMF where the completion is less, that might be the better play.

The problem is, nearly all the secondary airports that can sustain service to Hawaii already have at least 2 carriers operating the routes. And neither is going to idly cede market share to WN. As for the primary markets, competition is even more fierce. WN would be going up against long established airlines that have the option to use lower CASM aircraft like the 753 and high density WBs.

WN will be able to connect passengers to Hawaii from ABQ, AUS, DAL, DEN, ELP, HOU, MCI, LAS, MDW, MSY, PHX, RNO, SMF, STL, and SAT and vice versa if it adds nonstop service to Hawaii from LAX. There are some WN customers in Arizona, Colorado, Illinois, Kansas, Louisiana, Missouri, New Mexico, and Texas who would be willing to fly on WN to Hawaii after WN offers flights to Hawaii for sale.

jplatts wrote:

77H wrote:

flyguy84 wrote:

WN will be able to connect passengers to Hawaii from ABQ, AUS, DAL, DEN, ELP, HOU, MCI, LAS, MDW, MSY, PHX, RNO, SMF, STL, and SAT and vice versa if it adds nonstop service to Hawaii from LAX. There are some WN customers in Arizona, Colorado, Illinois, Kansas, Louisiana, Missouri, New Mexico, and Texas who would be willing to fly on WN to Hawaii after WN offers flights to Hawaii for sale.

Without red-eyes anyone returning from HA will have to overnight on the coast unless one is flying close to CA like LAS/PHX/TUS. Conversely, without red-eye schedules passengers from the Midwest/East will arrive too late in CA to catch the HA flights. WN is really going to have to rely on mostly local O&D to make HA work for them.

OzarkD9S wrote:

jplatts wrote:

77H wrote:

Without red-eyes anyone returning from HA will have to overnight on the coast unless one is flying close to CA like LAS/PHX/TUS. Conversely, without red-eye schedules passengers from the Midwest/East will arrive too late in CA to catch the HA flights. WN is really going to have to rely on mostly local O&D to make HA work for them.

An early AM Hawaii departure would permit significant mid-afternoon connections on the west coast. And a similarly-timed thru flight to MDW would likely catch the last bank at MDW and thus flights to virtually every WN station in the Central and Eastern time zones.

OzarkD9S wrote:

jplatts wrote:

WN will be able to connect passengers to Hawaii from ABQ, AUS, DAL, DEN, ELP, HOU, MCI, LAS, MDW, MSY, PHX, RNO, SMF, STL, and SAT and vice versa if it adds nonstop service to Hawaii from LAX. There are some WN customers in Arizona, Colorado, Illinois, Kansas, Louisiana, Missouri, New Mexico, and Texas who would be willing to fly on WN to Hawaii after WN offers flights to Hawaii for sale.

Without red-eyes anyone returning from HA will have to overnight on the coast unless one is flying close to CA like LAS/PHX/TUS. Conversely, without red-eye schedules passengers from the Midwest/East will arrive too late in CA to catch the HA flights. WN is really going to have to rely on mostly local O&D to make HA work for them.

WN would actually be able to connect passengers from HNL to ABQ, AUS, DAL, DEN, ELP, HOU, MCI, LAS, MDW, MSY, PHX, RNO, SMF, STL, and SAT through LAX if WN adds a morning departure from HNL to LAX. A morning departure from HNL to LAX would get you into LAX somewhere between 2:30 PM PDT and 6:30 PM PDT, and connections to places further east (even as far east as MDW) would certainly be possible with a morning departure from HNL to LAX on WN.

WN has not received ETOPS approval from the FAA yet, so they cant fly there yet and they have to do proving runs before they get approval.

ual763 wrote:

Security is painfully slow in the Diamondhead concourse. It seems like it is because of a lack of security lanes. I wouldn’t really call it TSAs fault. The terminal was designed well before TSA. There’s literally no more room for more TSA lines. The current line is sandwiched between 2 concrete walls.

All they would have to do is consolidate down check-in lanes for UA and DL and use the vacated DL area as a screening area. I do blame TSA though; they mis-manage what they have, and chose to make matters worse with the K9s (at least for precheck).

airzona11 wrote:

flyguy84 wrote:

DarthLobster wrote:

From a marketplace prospective, just what would WN offer by flying to Hawaii that isn’t already captured by every other carrier? Everyone with a 737NG now flies to Hawaii, WN’s fares are no longer low enough to count as an LCC (certainly couldn’t be on ETOPS routes), and operating a route solely for the purpose of reward redemptions won’t make anyone money.

Aside from the prestige of flying to Hawaii, there is little sense in WN operating those routes given their business model. They’re going to lose money and then lose face when they try to back out of it later.

Although most will disageee, I think they are too late to the Hawaii party. I don’t think there’s much gain to be had. Sure they’ll fool their fare share of people into thinking they are the more “affordable” option since people who tend to fly WN don’t compare prices. I just feel there’s too much competetion for them to benefit much. If they stick to secondary airports to Hawaii like SNA/SJC/SMF where the completion is less, that might be the better play.

WN has the largest FF base in California. you both speak like they are a niche player. They don't have to "fool" any passengers. They are already the largest domestic airline. Hawaii is not a mileage redemption route, fares are not rock bottom.

I can't speak to mileage redemption rates or average fares, but I'm sure WN's built-in frequent flyer base is plenty big to fill at least two daily HNL flights from a couple of airports. And I could also see two free checked bags being particularly appealing to non-frequent flyers.

Cubsrule wrote:

OzarkD9S wrote:

jplatts wrote:

Without red-eyes anyone returning from HA will have to overnight on the coast unless one is flying close to CA like LAS/PHX/TUS. Conversely, without red-eye schedules passengers from the Midwest/East will arrive too late in CA to catch the HA flights. WN is really going to have to rely on mostly local O&D to make HA work for them.

An early AM Hawaii departure would permit significant mid-afternoon connections on the west coast. And a similarly-timed thru flight to MDW would likely catch the last bank at MDW and thus flights to virtually every WN station in the Central and Eastern time zones.

Which would require check-out from hotels at like 6am or earlier. And arrival into MDW would be around or even past midnight. Or you could leave later on a competitor, not be rushed, and take a redeye back to Chicago. There's a reason there are so few flights that leave Hawaii that early in the morning. This summer, peak schedule (Saturdays), there are over 130 flights from all of Hawaii to the U.S. mainland. Only 6 leave before 10am, all from HNL and to just SFO (1 - UA) and LAX (5 - 2 UA, AA, DL, HA). Southwest won't have it that easy in Hawaii.

Good to see we're finally getting closer and closer to seeing WN make Hawaii service a reality. Now I'm just waiting for the whiners on social media to start complaining every time WN advertises their special $59 rates and they aren't available on Hawaii routes. They already do it for every other route combination out there long and short. Kind of sad really. Some people expect something for nothing but their "somethings" keep on getting more and more elaborate (instead of getting LAX-LAS for $59 they now want to be able to fly from RIC-ATL-LAX for $59 for example)

exFWAOONW wrote:

Isn't there room near the inter-island terminal? Southwest could go back to its roots with a sans jet-way operation.

That where they are starting work on the new Mauka Concourse.

hoya wrote:

Cubsrule wrote:

OzarkD9S wrote:

Without red-eyes anyone returning from HA will have to overnight on the coast unless one is flying close to CA like LAS/PHX/TUS. Conversely, without red-eye schedules passengers from the Midwest/East will arrive too late in CA to catch the HA flights. WN is really going to have to rely on mostly local O&D to make HA work for them.

An early AM Hawaii departure would permit significant mid-afternoon connections on the west coast. And a similarly-timed thru flight to MDW would likely catch the last bank at MDW and thus flights to virtually every WN station in the Central and Eastern time zones.

Which would require check-out from hotels at like 6am or earlier. And arrival into MDW would be around or even past midnight. Or you could leave later on a competitor, not be rushed, and take a redeye back to Chicago. There's a reason there are so few flights that leave Hawaii that early in the morning. This summer, peak schedule (Saturdays), there are over 130 flights from all of Hawaii to the U.S. mainland. Only 6 leave before 10am, all from HNL and to just SFO (1 - UA) and LAX (5 - 2 UA, AA, DL, HA). Southwest won't have it that easy in Hawaii.

Certainly WN won’t be competitive for all traffic from the “inner US,” which comprise a relatively small fraction of Hawaii demand. My point was simply that itineraries to interior points are possible without redeyes.

Is Island Air still flying? I don't remember seeing a lot of activity down that way last time I went through. May not be enough room for a large operation, but definitely a plane or two or three.

exFWAOONW wrote:

Is Island Air still flying?

Nope, they shut down on November 11, 2017.

fraspotter wrote:

Good to see we're finally getting closer and closer to seeing WN make Hawaii service a reality. Now I'm just waiting for the whiners on social media to start complaining every time WN advertises their special $59 rates and they aren't available on Hawaii routes. They already do it for every other route combination out there long and short. Kind of sad really. Some people expect something for nothing but their "somethings" keep on getting more and more elaborate (instead of getting LAX-LAS for $59 they now want to be able to fly from RIC-ATL-LAX for $59 for example)

Precisely, and this why we find the airlines in general trending towards more seats with less legroom, BoB meals and baggage fees. At the end of the day, the average flyer cares most about getting the cheapest fare, then complaining when they get exactly what they’ve paid for.

People on A.Net would have us believe that comfort and amenities are most important. The proliferation on ULCC’s and LCC’s in almost every region of the planet is proof that at best, A.Net sentiment is a minority viewpoint.

77H

IMO they should have an ETOPS subfleet of 73G so that they could offer secondary airport service of the likes of SNA/BUR where there is zero competition. AQ made it work and was very pleased with the results. Hope to see them add LGB too.

All other major California cities have multiple airlines on the CA-Hawai’i routes and WN really needs to differentiate themselves to make this a success, and they aren’t priced the way they were in the past.

OzarkD9S wrote:

jplatts wrote:

77H wrote:

Without red-eyes anyone returning from HA will have to overnight on the coast unless one is flying close to CA like LAS/PHX/TUS. Conversely, without red-eye schedules passengers from the Midwest/East will arrive too late in CA to catch the HA flights. WN is really going to have to rely on mostly local O&D to make HA work for them.

I think they could have it done in one day. Someone could catch an 08:30 BWI-LAX flight, arrive in LA about 11:00, and take a 12:30 LAX-HNL flight and be in Hawaii by 4pm. The return is a bit tighter, leaving HNL at 6am and arriving at LAX at 2:30, then catching a 4pm flight to BWI and be back around midnight. (sub BWI for any east coast city and sub LAX for any California city and it should still work)

I know that WN has stated that they won’t operate red eyes. I believe that is the initial plan but I expect them to be operating red eyes back to the mainland US within the first year of operations commencing FWIW.

Given the attention that southwest is paying to Alaska Airlines, I would think a large part of this entry is to squeeze as, whose most profitable routes out of secondary cali airports are to Hawaii, especially the ones where they have monopoly. Given such, their first 2 airports with be oak and San. The former because they have utter dominance and can push as out completely. It will be like bwi lax which is one of as worst performing transcon routes. Whether or not as actually retreat is irrelevant since wn is trying to squeeze their yields and make their overall cali operation less profitable. San Diego is the largest battleground between the two. Going into Hawaii with solidify wn as the biggest carrier and push down Alaska yields. After that, I would imagine smf and sjc. As has something like 11 monopolies in the cali to hi market, I would expect wn to attack a good number of them.

tphuang wrote:

Given the attention that southwest is paying to Alaska Airlines, I would think a large part of this entry is to squeeze as, whose most profitable routes out of secondary cali airports are to Hawaii, especially the ones where they have monopoly. Given such, their first 2 airports with be oak and San. The former because they have utter dominance and can push as out completely. It will be like bwi lax which is one of as worst performing transcon routes. Whether or not as actually retreat is irrelevant since wn is trying to squeeze their yields and make their overall cali operation less profitable. San Diego is the largest battleground between the two. Going into Hawaii with solidify wn as the biggest carrier and push down Alaska yields. After that, I would imagine smf and sjc. As has something like 11 monopolies in the cali to hi market, I would expect wn to attack a good number of them.

Riiiight... because AS and HA for that matter are just going to lay down and let WN come into the Hawaii market from any West Coast station and steal their lunch... While Hawaii is an important market for AS it is the only market for HA. Expect HA to ruthlessly defend its marketshare against WN from every West Coast city they operate to/from. Unfortunately HA has encountered a bump in the road with their GTF powered 321N's but I have no doubt that this aircraft will be competitve against AS and WN from secondary markets on the West Coast and Hawaii while also allowing HA to add frequency in larger markets. I would expect the GTF issues to be largely worked out in advance of WN receiving ETOPS certification, crew training and contract ratifications giving HA the early-bird advantage.

77H

77H wrote:

fraspotter wrote:

Good to see we're finally getting closer and closer to seeing WN make Hawaii service a reality. Now I'm just waiting for the whiners on social media to start complaining every time WN advertises their special $59 rates and they aren't available on Hawaii routes. They already do it for every other route combination out there long and short. Kind of sad really. Some people expect something for nothing but their "somethings" keep on getting more and more elaborate (instead of getting LAX-LAS for $59 they now want to be able to fly from RIC-ATL-LAX for $59 for example)

Precisely, and this why we find the airlines in general trending towards more seats with less legroom, BoB meals and baggage fees. At the end of the day, the average flyer cares most about getting the cheapest fare, then complaining when they get exactly what they’ve paid for.

People on A.Net would have us believe that comfort and amenities are most important. The proliferation on ULCC’s and LCC’s in almost every region of the planet is proof that at best, A.Net sentiment is a minority viewpoint.

77H

As long I get where i'm going and back safely, I couldn't care less about amenities. That's what I'm looking for when I get to my destination of choice not on the bus ride.

Tucker1 wrote:

77H wrote:

fraspotter wrote:

Good to see we're finally getting closer and closer to seeing WN make Hawaii service a reality. Now I'm just waiting for the whiners on social media to start complaining every time WN advertises their special $59 rates and they aren't available on Hawaii routes. They already do it for every other route combination out there long and short. Kind of sad really. Some people expect something for nothing but their "somethings" keep on getting more and more elaborate (instead of getting LAX-LAS for $59 they now want to be able to fly from RIC-ATL-LAX for $59 for example)

Precisely, and this why we find the airlines in general trending towards more seats with less legroom, BoB meals and baggage fees. At the end of the day, the average flyer cares most about getting the cheapest fare, then complaining when they get exactly what they’ve paid for.

People on A.Net would have us believe that comfort and amenities are most important. The proliferation on ULCC’s and LCC’s in almost every region of the planet is proof that at best, A.Net sentiment is a minority viewpoint.

77H

As long I get where i'm going and back safely, I couldn't care less about amenities. That's what I'm looking for when I get to my destination of choice not on the bus ride.

I am the same way. Though I would add, "on schedule" to the list of things that are of utmost importance, understanding that sometimes, "fecal matter" happens thats out of anyones control. I have had my fair share of lengthy delays and I always tell myself, better to be a few hours late than end up on a breaking news story.

That said, peruse the forums here and you'll find no small number of members here constently whining about legroom, food and the number of bathrooms while also complaining how they want fares to be lower.

77H

77H wrote:

Tucker1 wrote:

77H wrote:

Precisely, and this why we find the airlines in general trending towards more seats with less legroom, BoB meals and baggage fees. At the end of the day, the average flyer cares most about getting the cheapest fare, then complaining when they get exactly what they’ve paid for.

People on A.Net would have us believe that comfort and amenities are most important. The proliferation on ULCC’s and LCC’s in almost every region of the planet is proof that at best, A.Net sentiment is a minority viewpoint.

77H

As long I get where i'm going and back safely, I couldn't care less about amenities. That's what I'm looking for when I get to my destination of choice not on the bus ride.

I am the same way. Though I would add, "on schedule" to the list of things that are of utmost importance, understanding that sometimes, "fecal matter" happens thats out of anyones control. I have had my fair share of lengthy delays and I always tell myself, better to be a few hours late than end up on a breaking news story.

That said, peruse the forums here and you'll find no small number of members here constently whining about legroom, food and the number of bathrooms while also complaining how they want fares to be lower.

77H