na
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Austrian´s old longhaul fleet

Sun Mar 18, 2018 2:31 pm

While LH is busy renewing its longhaul fleet, and Brussels old A330s are being replaced/supplemented by newer secondhand aircraft, Austrians longhaul fleet is aging rapidly without new metal on the horizon. The average age of the 767 subfleet is over 22 years, the 777s above 17 - exactly the point where quality airlines seriously contemplate and order replacements. Still nothing is heard from Vienna.
 
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ACCS300
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Re: Austrian´s old longhaul fleet

Sun Mar 18, 2018 2:53 pm

There are many 'quality airlines' with many sub-fleets as old or older, BA's 747-400s, LH's A340-300's and 747-400's, AF's A340-300's and some 777-200's, AC's 767-300's and A320's. Asian and ME3 carriers seem to be the fastest to renew fleets. Austrian's seems right in the middle of the pack to me. Don't even get me started on the US3.
Last edited by ACCS300 on Sun Mar 18, 2018 3:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
vfw614
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Re: Austrian´s old longhaul fleet

Sun Mar 18, 2018 2:54 pm

Lufhtnasa CEO Spohr last week went on the record that Austrian is the least profitable of the group's airlines, so I suppose they will have to get their act together before Lufthansa will invest (instead of using another platform to produce longhaul capacity from Vienna)
 
devron
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Re: Austrian´s old longhaul fleet

Sun Mar 18, 2018 3:07 pm

Delta or Condor have similar old 767 fleets. Austrian needs to deliver sustainoable profits I assume before they can invest.

They recenty got a "new" 777 so investments are taking place.
 
NYCVIE
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Re: Austrian´s old longhaul fleet

Sun Mar 18, 2018 3:09 pm

vfw614 wrote:
Lufhtnasa CEO Spohr last week went on the record that Austrian is the least profitable of the group's airlines, so I suppose they will have to get their act together before Lufthansa will invest (instead of using another platform to produce longhaul capacity from Vienna)


Is the group in this sense just LH, LX, and OS? If it's including SN thats somewhat surprising to me, but if not I can't imagine a scenario where OS generates more profit than LX and LH. Especially with this year coming, OS is definitely going to see depressed yields due to Wizz (keep in mind though that LX has no low cost competition in ZRH and where they do in GVA they are getting destroyed). I think LH will invest soon because they have to - now whether it will be brand new 787s or second hand aircraft is a different story.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: Austrian´s old longhaul fleet

Sun Mar 18, 2018 3:09 pm

I don't think the age of the fleet correlates necessarily to the quality of the fleet. Yes, OS's 767s and 777s are getting up there in age, but they are very well maintained and have been upgraded in 2013-2014 with new interiors. If OS remains as it is, a legacy flag carrier within the LH group, and does not transition to a EuroWings type model, similar to what LH has in mind, or would like to accomplish, at Brussels Airlines, then I could see the 787 in two variants as the logical replacement aircraft for the 777/767 fleet. It would give them the range AND the fuel efficiency to operate their longest sectors and essentially cover the entire long haul network they have. The other possibility is LH going for the A359 for OS. I don't see the 777-300ER or A350-1000s as a viable replacement for OS's long haul fleet.
 
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Re: Austrian´s old longhaul fleet

Sun Mar 18, 2018 3:16 pm

vfw614 wrote:
Lufhtnasa CEO Spohr last week went on the record that Austrian is the least profitable of the group's airlines, so I suppose they will have to get their act together before Lufthansa will invest (instead of using another platform to produce longhaul capacity from Vienna)

Not suprising considering the age of their aircraft, will prefer to fly new metal than older metal
 
na
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Re: Austrian´s old longhaul fleet

Sun Mar 18, 2018 3:22 pm

ACCS300 wrote:
There are many 'quality airlines' with many sub-fleets as old or older, BA's 747-400s, LH's A340-300's and 747-400's, AF's A340-300's and some 777-200's, AC's 767-300's and A320's.


In all the cases/airlines you mention only parts of the longhaul fleets is old, plus all those types mentioned except the AF 77Es are in the process of replacement, so its quite natural and therefore not worth mentioning.
In AUA´s case (like Condor) its the whole longhaul fleet from A-Z, even if its a small fleet. That AUA will add a 6th 777 doesnt change that much as its also a plane which has half its life behind it.
 
vfw614
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Re: Austrian´s old longhaul fleet

Sun Mar 18, 2018 3:42 pm

NYCVIE wrote:
vfw614 wrote:
Lufhtnasa CEO Spohr last week went on the record that Austrian is the least profitable of the group's airlines, so I suppose they will have to get their act together before Lufthansa will invest (instead of using another platform to produce longhaul capacity from Vienna)


Is the group in this sense just LH, LX, and OS? If it's including SN thats somewhat surprising to me, but if not I can't imagine a scenario where OS generates more profit than LX and LH.


IIRC, he referred to LH, LX and OS.
 
oldannyboy
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Re: Austrian´s old longhaul fleet

Tue Mar 20, 2018 11:21 am

Aircraft type and age are pretty much irrelevant to both performance (as both in 'technical' and 'financial') and quality of the service provided to passengers. Look at how many perfectly functional and well-performing airlines have huge fleets of past-their-prime 767s and 777s!
Their aircraft have probably low lease rates, and make perfect sense for a small-ish flag carrier with a somewhat limited long-haul op, which inevitably is more and more "assisting" big momma LH.
Besides, OS long-haul fleet is maintained in pretty good nick, and their cabins are very pleasant spaces to be in for any given flight. I'd argue that their Y product is actually better than LH?
Not sure what the benefit of a very expensive fleet of brand new 787s would be for OS.....
 
na
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Re: Austrian´s old longhaul fleet

Tue Mar 20, 2018 12:22 pm

oldannyboy wrote:
Aircraft type and age are pretty much irrelevant to both performance (as both in 'technical' and 'financial') and quality of the service provided to passengers.

I am not disputing that. The best examples are the 744s of KLM - and LH. But thats a different story. They are parts of a huge fleet/subfleet. AUA has 6 77Es and 6 763s, very small subfleets, up in age and both oddballs in the concern. Thats why I started this topic.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Austrian´s old longhaul fleet

Tue Mar 20, 2018 12:43 pm

LH will have to make a decision soon...especially on the 767s as OE-LAW and OE-LAX which are 26 years old. The 777s have about 5-6 years left before the lease on OE-LPE expires (I don't know how long the lease on OE-LPF is). I see B788s and B789s in the future for OS....6 and 7, respectively, or maybe just 12 B789s as the B772s generally go where the B763s don't have the range, except VIE-JFK.
 
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OA940
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Re: Austrian´s old longhaul fleet

Tue Mar 20, 2018 12:57 pm

I only have one word for you: Delta.
A350/CSeries = bae
 
oldannyboy
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Re: Austrian´s old longhaul fleet

Tue Mar 20, 2018 4:25 pm

na wrote:
oldannyboy wrote:
Aircraft type and age are pretty much irrelevant to both performance (as both in 'technical' and 'financial') and quality of the service provided to passengers.

I am not disputing that. The best examples are the 744s of KLM - and LH. But thats a different story. They are parts of a huge fleet/subfleet. AUA has 6 77Es and 6 763s, very small subfleets, up in age and both oddballs in the concern. Thats why I started this topic.


Oh, yes, I do see what you mean...
So, in my opinion, if "oddballs" & commonality are the issues here, maybe LH group could/would/should direct OS to acquire a fleet of (second hand?) A330s (A332s?), or could instead sub-let some of their A330s as more A350s arrive in the LH main fleet.
On a side note, I am somewhat surprised that LH is not actually sharing/shuffling their fleet more among their subsidiary possessions.... At one stage many were hoping some redundant A346s would have been cascaded down onto LX....
 
devron
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Re: Austrian´s old longhaul fleet

Tue Mar 20, 2018 6:46 pm

The Condor CEo said his 25 year old 767 still have 10 year left in them in an airliners.de interview. So OS might just keep them for other 5 years easily. I love these old 767...
 
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InnsbruckFlyer
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Re: Austrian´s old longhaul fleet

Tue Mar 20, 2018 7:46 pm

devron wrote:
Delta or Condor have similar old 767 fleets. Austrian needs to deliver sustainoable profits I assume before they can invest.

They recenty got a "new" 777 so investments are taking place.


OE-LPF, the 'new' 777, is 16.4 years old. Talk about fleet refreshments :rotfl:

Last flown aircraft: A320 D-AIPS < A319 OE-LDD < A320 D-AIQA < DH8D OE-LGO < A320 HA-LWC < A320 HA-LWV < A320 SX-DVT < A320 SX-DVK < B733 LZ-BVU < E190 LZ-SOF < A320 D-AIUQ < DH8D OE-LGJ < A321 D-AIRN < A319 LZ-FBB
 
deltadudejg
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Re: Austrian´s old longhaul fleet

Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:17 pm

I would love to see OS grow. I have always liked their on board product. Would be ecstatic if they did end up getting any variant of the 787.
Aviation Enthusiast working in Airport Operations
 
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mercure1
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Re: Austrian´s old longhaul fleet

Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:25 pm

As former CEO Jaan Albrecht stated in an interview - with OS marginal financial performance, it would need to "earn" the right to justify longhaul fleet expansion.
OS has no god given right to long haul ops. By acquiring used frames, atleast is can keep expense down and hopefully allow routes to break even. Funding a large fleet of brand new long-haul frames might sink the entire operation.
mercure f-wtcc
 
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SQ789
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Re: Austrian´s old longhaul fleet

Thu Jul 19, 2018 6:18 am

Know this already, but as of July 2017, was wandering that will they also can renew their fleet as well by ordering the A359 or 787's? To me I don't think so at this time. But sadly many airline around the world has already operate younger planes like the A350's or 787's and Austrian still flying most older planes (including 777-200's, 767's and ageing A320's), Austria is a rich country than Germany or France, but it's an opposite it's Aviation industry.
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zkojq
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Re: Austrian´s old longhaul fleet

Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:43 am

My prediction; at some point in the next year or two LH orders new A330-900s for Swiss. Swiss's existing A330-300s get moved over to Austrian (maybe some to Brussles too).

Likewise, another five years into the future I could see them doing something similar; some new A350-1000s for Swiss. Some of Swiss's 77Ws go to Austrian.
First to fly the 787-9
 
VSMUT
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Re: Austrian´s old longhaul fleet

Thu Jul 19, 2018 9:14 am

zkojq wrote:
My prediction; at some point in the next year or two LH orders new A330-900s for Swiss. Swiss's existing A330-300s get moved over to Austrian (maybe some to Brussles too).

Likewise, another five years into the future I could see them doing something similar; some new A350-1000s for Swiss. Some of Swiss's 77Ws go to Austrian.


Who knows what they would get if Lufthansa wants to transfer something internally. They could just as well decide on the old A340-300s. They just transferred some of those to Eurowings/Brussels Airlines. Could also end up being the LH A330-300s, A340-600s, and even former Eurowings A330s if/when they ever get round to replacing those.
 
FatCat
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Re: Austrian´s old longhaul fleet

Thu Jul 19, 2018 9:15 am

If the fleet is maintained by LufthansaTechnik I would not be worried.
LH flies one of the oldest A320, so are the A321-100s, also A343s are'nt youngsters anymore.
Aeroplane flies high
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smi0006
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Re: Austrian´s old longhaul fleet

Thu Jul 19, 2018 9:45 am

Would there not be significant advantage to a common fleet interchangeable with demand? Just swap out the seat covers, quick repaint and move the fleet between group carriers?
 
oldannyboy
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Re: Austrian´s old longhaul fleet

Thu Jul 19, 2018 10:27 am

I don't share this typical A.net obsession with these seemingly "young, efficient" fleets.
OS may not have the newest fleet out there, but their frames are perfectly maintained, they are safe, reliable, equally comfortable (if not more) than most carriers out there. They are also performing well in terms of dispatch reliability and on-time performance. Internally they are really nice and much better than say some 'very long in the tooth' BA 777s or UA's long haul 'crafts...
When and if the day comes that those 767s and 777s really start falling apart, then LH group will either shift internally some capacity (330s probably, having been operated by OS in the past), or lease in some perfectly functioning second-hand frames.
 
hitower3
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Re: Austrian´s old longhaul fleet

Thu Jul 19, 2018 11:03 am

Dear all,

Please let me give my 0,02ct on this topic.
Austrian has recently signed a 8 year leasing contract for their 6th 777-200ER. This indicates that this aircraft type will stay in the fleet for the time being.

Regarding the 767-300ER fleet, these frames are owned and up to 29 years old. I might speculate that these frames will have to leave the fleet in the next years due to flight hours and maintenance considerations. Also, OS is the only operator of the 767 in all LH group, while the 777 family is also used at Swiss (777W), LH Cargo (777F) and Aerologic (777F). LH mainline is about to get 20x 779 from 2020.

Therefore, my prediction would be that the OS longhaul fleet will add more 777E from 2nd hand market, (3-6 years leases) as a mid-term growth strategy, replacing older and smaller 763ER. In a 2025-2027 time frame, I would see the 777 replaced by used 350-900 coming from LH mainline.

I don't see a short term switch to used 330-300, as these aircraft don't have the range to serve far East and US west coast routes. The 340-300 would not bring any cost advantage over the existing fleet, while the 340-600 and 777-300ER are just too much of an airplane for OS at this stage. Buying new 787-9 or 330-900 would over-stress the limited financial capability of the airline.

Also, I don't see OS continuing to operate two subfleets of 6 (or so) aircraft. This is just not economically sustainable.
 
FCOTSTW
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Re: Austrian´s old longhaul fleet

Thu Jul 19, 2018 1:25 pm

I remember OS in the 70s when it only flew DC9s and when it was the European airline with most flights from VIE to the Eastern block.

What a development through the years!
 
VSMUT
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Re: Austrian´s old longhaul fleet

Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:29 pm

hitower3 wrote:
I don't see a short term switch to used 330-300, as these aircraft don't have the range to serve far East and US west coast routes.


Austrian doesn't have any west coast US routes left. Hong Kong is the longest, and is ending soon. Of the remaining, none will be longer than 4600 nm. By comparison, SAS operates the A330-300 on the Hong Kong route, at 4700 nm. It is pretty obvious that the A330-300 can do anything Austrian requires of it, especially some of the late builds, like the ex-Singapore ones that Brussels Airlines got.


hitower3 wrote:
The 340-300 would not bring any cost advantage over the existing fleet, while the 340-600 and 777-300ER are just too much of an airplane for OS at this stage. Buying new 787-9 or 330-900 would over-stress the limited financial capability of the airline.


An A340-300 transferred internally would be free, saving them at least 200-250 mio EUR compared to a 787 or A350. Pretty big cost advantage. Same for the LH A340-600, it would be a long time before the added costs exceed the advantages of buying a new aircraft.
 
mickster
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Re: Austrian´s old longhaul fleet

Thu Jul 19, 2018 6:58 pm

VSMUT,
It seems your information is out of date.
OS flies to NRT which is 5,702 mi. OS also flies to LAX which is 6,137 mi.
I cannot judge the former but the latter cannot be done with A333 in my view.
 
BestWestern
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Re: Austrian´s old longhaul fleet

Thu Jul 19, 2018 7:11 pm

The future of the OS and Eurowings fleet renewal lies in Abu Dhabi. The 332’s are heading to Lufthansa Group.
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
Jetter330
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Re: Austrian´s old longhaul fleet

Thu Jul 19, 2018 7:21 pm

BestWestern wrote:
The future of the OS and Eurowings fleet renewal lies in Abu Dhabi. The 332’s are heading to Lufthansa Group.


Any source for this @BestWestern?
 
BestWestern
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Re: Austrian´s old longhaul fleet

Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:05 pm

Nothing I’m mentioning in public. Etihad and Lufthansa are very close. Well founded speculation that that the 330 and 777 fleet are heading to LH group as Etihad seeks a way to dramatically scale down when LH are seeking ways to grow EW long haul into profitability. Even a plan to take the 330 aircraft as is cabin wise. Small Flat bed J cabin, WiFi.
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
Blerg
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Re: Austrian´s old longhaul fleet

Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:40 pm

VSMUT wrote:
hitower3 wrote:
I don't see a short term switch to used 330-300, as these aircraft don't have the range to serve far East and US west coast routes.


Austrian doesn't have any west coast US routes left. Hong Kong is the longest, and is ending soon. Of the remaining, none will be longer than 4600 nm. By comparison, SAS operates the A330-300 on the Hong Kong route, at 4700 nm. It is pretty obvious that the A330-300 can do anything Austrian requires of it, especially some of the late builds, like the ex-Singapore ones that Brussels Airlines got.


Well, they do fly to LAX thought loads have not been that great from what I heard.

If profitability is the prerequisite for new aircraft then I don't think we are going to see any new arrivals any time soon. With Wizz Air, Laudamotion and Leval all expanding at VIE, OS' yields will be trash to most European destinations.
 
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eisenbach
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Re: Austrian´s old longhaul fleet

Thu Jul 19, 2018 9:00 pm

The outgoing CEO Kai Kratky (he has just a week left until retirement) said some days ago in an interesting interview for an Austrian aviation online-magazine, that OS was indeed looking the last years for a replacement of their long-haul fleet.

After having all numbers on the table, they decided now to stick with their 767/777 as these birds still perform good and have a long life ahead, as they don't have so much cycles (landing/starts) compared to a short/mid-haul fleet.

So, contrary to his opinion when he startet at OS, he is now convinced that this is the best and most economical decision for Austrian.

===

P.S. In contrast to LH CEO Spohr, Mr. Kratky has the opinion, that Austrian would be profitable enough to invest in a new long-haul fleet. He was mentioning that LH was less profitable, when they bought heaps of new longhaul aircrafts ;-)
DC-6, DC9, Do228, Saab340, Twin-Otter, C212, Fokker50, AN24, MD90, MD83, EMB120, A380, A300, A343, A346, B721, B742, B744, B748...
 
Samrnpage
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Re: Austrian´s old longhaul fleet

Fri Jul 20, 2018 12:46 am

I honestly think replacing all of their longhaul fleet with 787-8 and 787-10s would be perfect for them. Its whether the investment is worth it for LH.
 
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zkojq
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Re: Austrian´s old longhaul fleet

Fri Jul 20, 2018 5:38 am

hitower3 wrote:
Therefore, my prediction would be that the OS longhaul fleet will add more 777E from 2nd hand market, (3-6 years leases) as a mid-term growth strategy, replacing older and smaller 763ER. In a 2025-2027 time frame, I would see the 777 replaced by used 350-900 coming from LH mainline.

:checkmark: For now, there's nothing wrong with the 77E and they seems to suit OS quite well. Additional 77E leases here and there seem to be a low risk way of growing the airline.

hitower3 wrote:
I don't see a short term switch to used 330-300, as these aircraft don't have the range to serve far East and US west coast routes.

The range of the A330-300 will be fine for the routes that OS's 767-300ERs fly. An A330-300 will have no problem operating VIE-ORD/JFK/EWR/YYZ/MIA.

hitower3 wrote:
The 340-300 would not bring any cost advantage over the existing fleet, while the 340-600 and 777-300ER are just too much of an airplane for OS at this stage.

I agree with you that there is no benefit to introduce the A340-300/A340-600, but I'm sure that a few 77Ws could earn their keep in OS's fleet. The LH group seems to send most of their lower yield traffic through OS, I'm sure they could fill them on routes to BKK etc.
First to fly the 787-9
 
Jetter330
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Re: Austrian´s old longhaul fleet

Fri Jul 20, 2018 10:02 am

BestWestern wrote:
Nothing I’m mentioning in public. Etihad and Lufthansa are very close. Well founded speculation that that the 330 and 777 fleet are heading to LH group as Etihad seeks a way to dramatically scale down when LH are seeking ways to grow EW long haul into profitability. Even a plan to take the 330 aircraft as is cabin wise. Small Flat bed J cabin, WiFi.


+20 330’s is a whole lot for EW. How are they configured?
 
BestWestern
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Re: Austrian´s old longhaul fleet

Fri Jul 20, 2018 11:03 am

22/240 - perfect for SN OS and EW scheduled.
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
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TOGA10
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Re: Austrian´s old longhaul fleet

Fri Jul 20, 2018 11:32 am

NYCVIE wrote:
vfw614 wrote:
Lufhtnasa CEO Spohr last week went on the record that Austrian is the least profitable of the group's airlines, so I suppose they will have to get their act together before Lufthansa will invest (instead of using another platform to produce longhaul capacity from Vienna)


Especially with this year coming, OS is definitely going to see depressed yields due to Wizz (keep in mind though that LX has no low cost competition in ZRH and where they do in GVA they are getting destroyed).

Well, VY has 11 routes from ZRH (all southbound) and U2 has 10 routes, to places like BER (both airports), LON and AMS. Not the heaviest of competition, but there is some. You are very right about GVA, which always surprises me, considering it's an expensive place to stay. But that's off topic, sorry ;-).
Love flying, hate the alarm at 3 in the morning, love watching the sun rise at 5:30. It's all about compromises.
 
Jetter330
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Re: Austrian´s old longhaul fleet

Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:12 pm

BestWestern wrote:
22/240 - perfect for SN OS and EW scheduled.

Are these owned by EY or leased?
 
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MaxiAir
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Re: Austrian´s old longhaul fleet

Fri Jul 20, 2018 4:47 pm

Jetter330 wrote:
BestWestern wrote:
22/240 - perfect for SN OS and EW scheduled.

Are these owned by EY or leased?


Thats a difficult question. Taking into account that this kind of information is never 100% complete or accurate, at least on those accessible pages, such as Planespotters.net or airfleets.
The first claims A6-EYR and A6-EYS are leased and the others not, while airfleets says A6-EYD is leased and the others aren't.

I don't know that for sure, but 18-3 is still 15 frames which might be owned and could be handed on to Eurowings and/or Austrian respectively. If this rumour is correct, I could definitely see some as a 767 replacement. The 777s barely operate any route on a daily basis, so increasing frequency would do the trick nicely. All 15 therefore COULD find a home at Austrian. Would give them a very neat fleet and a more attractive schedule.

OS longhaul at the moment:

NRT 5/7 77E
BKK 6/7 77E
ORD 3/7 763 + 4/7 77E
HKG 5/7 77E
PVG 7/7 77E
LAX 6/7 77E
EWR 7/7 763
JFK 6/7 763
IAD 7/7 763
PEK 5/7 763
YYZ 6/7 763
MIA 4/7 763


could easily be 7/7 to NRT, ORD, HKG and LAX on the 332, PVG and BKK might need 10/7. That would be an increase by 12 flights a week which would require 14 aircraft overall (+1 spare and growth)
This would occupy all 15 332s perfectly.
Flown on - 306,313,318,319,320,321,332,333,343,345,346,359,35K,388, 712,733,734,735,736,73G,738,744,748,752,753,763,77E,77L,77W, 788, 789, M11, M1F, M88, CR7,CR9, E35,E45,E75,E90,E95, AR1,AR8, DHT,DH1,DH4, and some more ;)

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