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kaichinshih
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CI Disappointed with NZ Skycouch (Family Couch)

Sun Mar 18, 2018 4:12 pm

According to the Central News Agency of Taiwan, China Airlines is rapidly shrinking operations of the "Family Couch" product (CI's version of the Air New Zealand "Skycouch". The following are some of the key facts:

1. Only the first 6 A350s delivered (14 ordered in total) have Family Couch seats installed. It was originally planned that all 77W and A359s will have the product.
2. There are a total of 172 sets of Family Couch on 16 aircraft. By Apr 1, only 60 sets will be providing services. All unused sets will be "locked".
3. By Apr 1, only continental US routes will be selling Family Couch seats. European, Canadian, and Oceanic routes will stop Family Couch sales (TPE-LGW has not had Family Couch since day 1; Oceania likely the same)
4. CI saw a "scattering of sales" (put simply, low demand) for Family Couch sales on European routes. JFK, LAX, and SFO sales "slightly better".
5. CNA mentioned how some customers complained that the new Family Couch is "comfortable for kids, nightmare for adults". Due to the length limit, adults have to sleep curled up. Dining and placing personal items (assuming under the front seat) is difficult. It is also necessary to crawl in and out just to go to the bathroom.
6. Current management criticized previous management team for not critically assessing the viability of introducing Skycouch. Cultural difference is a main issue, such as how only families order the product on CI, while NZ also has couples. However, licensing fees for each aircraft have to be paid to NZ until approx. 6 years after delivery.

Sources: http://www.cna.com.tw/news/ahel/201803180019-1.aspx
https://money.udn.com/money/story/5641/3037529
 
402679
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Re: CI Disappointed with NZ Skycouch (Family Couch)

Sun Mar 18, 2018 5:44 pm

I wonder if this also happens because of the seat configuration? I mean, the A350 has 3-3-3, right?
Azul also have it. It's called Skysofa and is equipped in their A330, where the config is 2-4-2. So it is more spacious and probably better suited for a family.
I dunno if it's successful or not.
 
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hawaiian717
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Re: CI Disappointed with NZ Skycouch (Family Couch)

Sun Mar 18, 2018 6:42 pm

geoshina wrote:
I wonder if this also happens because of the seat configuration? I mean, the A350 has 3-3-3, right?


So does the 777-300ER at both CI and NZ.
 
Jamie514
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Re: CI Disappointed with NZ Skycouch (Family Couch)

Sun Mar 18, 2018 6:52 pm

Just observing that Air NZ and Azul carefully do not refer to the product as a family oriented service as the first word of the product name. I feel like this probably gives it a broader appeal and a larger potential market beyond merely the “parents with 0-11 year olds” demographic.
 
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ClassicLover
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Re: CI Disappointed with NZ Skycouch (Family Couch)

Sun Mar 18, 2018 9:01 pm

Yes, apparently it sells well on the US market, but not so well in other markets. Whether they remove it altogether or just keep it for the US remains to be seen. I can totally understand an adult would have to curl up - three seats is certainly not as long as a bed.
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qf002
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Re: CI Disappointed with NZ Skycouch (Family Couch)

Sun Mar 18, 2018 9:19 pm

hawaiian717 wrote:
So does the 777-300ER at both CI and NZ.


No both are 3-4-3 now.
 
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kaichinshih
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Re: CI Disappointed with NZ Skycouch (Family Couch)

Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:00 am

Jamie514 wrote:
Just observing that Air NZ and Azul carefully do not refer to the product as a family oriented service as the first word of the product name. I feel like this probably gives it a broader appeal and a larger potential market beyond merely the “parents with 0-11 year olds” demographic.


That's true. The name is possibly one the key reasons why the seats didn't appeal to more customers in the first place. After all, Family Couch is literally translated as "Parents and Kids Lie-Flat Class" in Taiwan.

The issue may also be caused by customer habits; perhaps people who have the extra money don't see the reason to buy Family Couch instead of flying in Business or Premium Economy?
 
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hongkongflyer
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Re: CI Disappointed with NZ Skycouch (Family Couch)

Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:16 am

kaichinshih wrote:
Jamie514 wrote:
Just observing that Air NZ and Azul carefully do not refer to the product as a family oriented service as the first word of the product name. I feel like this probably gives it a broader appeal and a larger potential market beyond merely the “parents with 0-11 year olds” demographic.


That's true. The name is possibly one the key reasons why the seats didn't appeal to more customers in the first place. After all, Family Couch is literally translated as "Parents and Kids Lie-Flat Class" in Taiwan.

The issue may also be caused by customer habits; perhaps people who have the extra money don't see the reason to buy Family Couch instead of flying in Business or Premium Economy?


Yes you are correct, the meaning of the chinese name of the Family couch is something like "Parent-child cabin"
 
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hawaiian717
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Re: CI Disappointed with NZ Skycouch (Family Couch)

Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:23 am

qf002 wrote:
hawaiian717 wrote:
So does the 777-300ER at both CI and NZ.


No both are 3-4-3 now.


You’re right. I’m not sure what I was thinking earlier.
 
xiaotung
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Re: CI Disappointed with NZ Skycouch (Family Couch)

Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:25 am

kaichinshih wrote:
Jamie514 wrote:
Just observing that Air NZ and Azul carefully do not refer to the product as a family oriented service as the first word of the product name. I feel like this probably gives it a broader appeal and a larger potential market beyond merely the “parents with 0-11 year olds” demographic.


That's true. The name is possibly one the key reasons why the seats didn't appeal to more customers in the first place. After all, Family Couch is literally translated as "Parents and Kids Lie-Flat Class" in Taiwan.

The issue may also be caused by customer habits; perhaps people who have the extra money don't see the reason to buy Family Couch instead of flying in Business or Premium Economy?


Business or Premium Economy seats particularly in Asia are no longer unaffordable due to competition and growing middle class. The gap between standard Economy and Business often doesn't justify buying Family Couch anymore. The culture difference aside, perhaps it only makes sense to some routes such as AKL-North America where Business fares can be 5 or 6 more times than Economy.

NZ have made some questionable decisions regarding designing new seats. The Space Seats are now gone. I don't expect the Sky Couch to hang around when they get their new aircraft. Certainly they won't be able to sell it to another airline. I only wish they had invested all that money to revamp their current Business seats which are way behind competition.
 
AC143
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Re: CI Disappointed with NZ Skycouch (Family Couch)

Mon Mar 19, 2018 3:25 am

Culturally difference aside, I just don't see how this product can be appealing. A 'bed' about 140 cm long and 67 cm wide with 2 adults (with or without a child) means almost no adults can sleep comfortably in any way. You have to curl all the way up and you can hardly move. People walking down the aisle would inevitably hit your feet from time to time. PE would definitely be much more comfortable with similar price.
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Siren
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Re: CI Disappointed with NZ Skycouch (Family Couch)

Mon Mar 19, 2018 3:46 am

Eh, I'd be comfortable... but I'm quite small, and my usual sleep position is in the fetal anyway... so I think this thing would work wonderfully for me. But I realize that 115 pound/52 kilo paraplegics are a very small minority of the market. I don't see the point of ponying up for business class when I can buy a skycouch instead, and saving a substantial amount of money.

That said, Asians are on average significantly smaller - shorter and smaller by mass than the average European. I suspect that with better marketing, the product could be a success.Selling it as the "Parents and Kids Lie Flat Class" just doesn't sound sexy, and isn't really an inducement for me to spend my money on that. Why would I want to lay down with my kid in the same bed? There has to be a better way..
 
MaverickM11
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Re: CI Disappointed with NZ Skycouch (Family Couch)

Mon Mar 19, 2018 4:01 am

It's a fantastic idea in terms of innovation and hardware, but I'm just not convinced anyone meaningfully makes the jump from "oh that's a cool idea" to buying it. I think the buyup is pretty steep, and if you're not buying from the airline's website you're unlikely to find it.
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coolian2
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Re: CI Disappointed with NZ Skycouch (Family Couch)

Mon Mar 19, 2018 4:35 am

Nothing wrong with sharing a single bed, I just wouldn't try on a plane
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downdata
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Re: CI Disappointed with NZ Skycouch (Family Couch)

Mon Mar 19, 2018 5:32 am

Great idea on paper until you realise just how little space the seats have. Personally id rather be standing the whole way.

https://goo.gl/images/ye8KQy
 
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kaichinshih
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Re: CI Disappointed with NZ Skycouch (Family Couch)

Mon Mar 19, 2018 12:27 pm

downdata wrote:
Great idea on paper until you realise just how little space the seats have. Personally id rather be standing the whole way.

https://goo.gl/images/ye8KQy


Does make me wonder, however, how NZ is doing with their Skycouch. Afterall, didn't they recently announce some minor upgrades to the product?
 
vfw614
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Re: CI Disappointed with NZ Skycouch (Family Couch)

Mon Mar 19, 2018 1:13 pm

I guess it really depends on the person using it. The seats on CI's 787-9 have 18in seat width, so with adding the space between the seats etc. we are looking at 57in usable space or so. Useful for someone 160-170cm tall, not so useful if you are 185-195cm. On paper, with Taiwanese on average being 171cm (male) and 160cm (female), it should be easier for CI to sell those seats than for NZ (177cm and 164cm; and yes, I know that not only Taiwanese fly CI and not only New Zealanders NZ)). So I guess it is more a cultural thing that Asians feel awkward cuddling up to their partner in public on a skysofa. Something that should not have come as a total surprise. My guess is that the US flights work better because they are used by a lot of US born Taiwanese VFR'ing who have a different cultural mindset.
 
cskok8
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Re: CI Disappointed with NZ Skycouch (Family Couch)

Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:22 pm

I have tried it on NZ AKL-EZE. Not worth the money. Very difficult for even 2 small sized adults to lie comfortably. Even if someone managed to sleep, the moment the other one moves a little, you will wake up. Plus the seat-backs are not reclinable so you can't convert it into a "Euro business class"
 
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GSPFlyer
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Re: CI Disappointed with NZ Skycouch (Family Couch)

Mon Mar 19, 2018 3:08 pm

AC143 wrote:
Culturally difference aside, I just don't see how this product can be appealing. A 'bed' about 140 cm long and 67 cm wide with 2 adults (with or without a child) means almost no adults can sleep comfortably in any way. You have to curl all the way up and you can hardly move. People walking down the aisle would inevitably hit your feet from time to time. PE would definitely be much more comfortable with similar price.


It's a wonder they sell so well to the U.S. on either CI or NZ.

140cm = 55 inches = 4'7"

The average American female is 5' 3.5" (162cm) You might be able to make it work at that height, but for the Average American male (5'9"/176 cm), I can't see that being comfortable, even by yourself.

New Zealanders are even taller on average than Americans: 5' 9.5"/177 cm for men, 5' 4.5"/164cm for women. Taiwan is a little shorter at 5' 7.5"/171 cm for men, and 5'3"/160 cm for women.
 
hoons90
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Re: CI Disappointed with NZ Skycouch (Family Couch)

Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:13 pm

I guess it matters if you're okay with sleeping in the fetal position. I once got an entire set of three seats on an Air China 777 from PEK to LAX and I had some of the best sleep I've ever had in Y class. I'm 6ft tall.
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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: CI Disappointed with NZ Skycouch (Family Couch)

Tue Mar 20, 2018 6:22 pm

hoons90 wrote:
I guess it matters if you're okay with sleeping in the fetal position. I once got an entire set of three seats on an Air China 777 from PEK to LAX and I had some of the best sleep I've ever had in Y class. I'm 6ft tall.


My wife and I managed to game the system and blag 3-seat blocks a few times in the past, and those were the only times I've ever had a decent sleep on a plane. That was with a narrow uneven "mattress" and taking it in turns to use our laps as "the pillow" - so I imagine the couch is not as terrible as some here make out. Whether it's worth the money is a different question...
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trex8
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Re: CI Disappointed with NZ Skycouch (Family Couch)

Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:29 pm

Why dont they make the 4 seat section (on the 777) the couch rather than the 3. Then you really could lie and stretch. Or are the CI 77W center 4seats two twins??
 
trex8
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Re: CI Disappointed with NZ Skycouch (Family Couch)

Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:41 pm

 
coolfish1103
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Re: CI Disappointed with NZ Skycouch (Family Couch)

Mon Jun 11, 2018 6:43 pm

I wonder if they are taking those couches off the existing planes?

It's not exactly comfortable to sit in those seats as they act poorly as a footrest while taking away some pitches.
 
chloehsu
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Re: CI Disappointed with NZ Skycouch (Family Couch)

Thu Jul 05, 2018 1:06 pm

My daughter and her toddler love CI's family couch. They would fly from SFO to TPE only on CI's family couch so that baby could play and sleep in the long flight. It was a great marketing tool to help CI to stand out among so many airlines flying this route. It is very stupid of China Airlines management to remove all family couch seats from its 777 especially licensing fee has been paid for and hardware is already out there
. Not enough business? Remove half or 2/3 on each plane, not 100%!
 
LH658
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Re: CI Disappointed with NZ Skycouch (Family Couch)

Thu Jul 05, 2018 1:29 pm

I am 6 foot 4 inches, I had the skycouch on Air New Zealand from IAH to AKL, I had the best sleep I ever had in economy. The pillow, is a big fluffy pillow, thicker blanket, and thin mattress. I gotta admit 2 full sizes adult will have trouble sleeping, I did see father daughter sleep together daughter looked under age of 10 seem to be comfortable. Though regardless, 3 seats to your self in economy make a difference. Only down side, you have to sleep in a fetal position, and can't stretch your legs.
 
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kaichinshih
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Re: CI Disappointed with NZ Skycouch (Family Couch)

Sun Jan 06, 2019 4:39 am

Latest information regarding the product:
1) Most popular Family Couch route was that to/from LAX
2) On the best performing route, only an average of 40% Family Couches were sold
3) Final Family Couch reservation to be completed Feb 2019
 
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c933103
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Re: CI Disappointed with NZ Skycouch (Family Couch)

Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:14 am

chloehsu wrote:
My daughter and her toddler love CI's family couch. They would fly from SFO to TPE only on CI's family couch so that baby could play and sleep in the long flight. It was a great marketing tool to help CI to stand out among so many airlines flying this route. It is very stupid of China Airlines management to remove all family couch seats from its 777 especially licensing fee has been paid for and hardware is already out there
. Not enough business? Remove half or 2/3 on each plane, not 100%!

But then there's also the cost of license fee
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eamondzhang
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Re: CI Disappointed with NZ Skycouch (Family Couch)

Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:50 am

kaichinshih wrote:
Latest information regarding the product:
1) Most popular Family Couch route was that to/from LAX
2) On the best performing route, only an average of 40% Family Couches were sold
3) Final Family Couch reservation to be completed Feb 2019

So Ci is removing them from service? Well if that's the case I'm not too surprised given the initial amount they installed and the general market

Michael
 
aviationaware
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Re: CI Disappointed with NZ Skycouch (Family Couch)

Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:51 am

Was the license fee a lump sum or annual payment or is it a sales based commission? Does anybody know?
 
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c933103
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Re: CI Disappointed with NZ Skycouch (Family Couch)

Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:39 pm

aviationaware wrote:
Was the license fee a lump sum or annual payment or is it a sales based commission? Does anybody know?

Annual payment. No official figure on exactly how much they need to pay but estimation from industrial sources put it at about 100kUSD per aircraft per year.
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c933103
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Re: CI Disappointed with NZ Skycouch (Family Couch)

Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:57 pm

*Actually, it seems like the contract length for each aircraft with this family couch is 6 years, which mean it would be until 2020-2023 for aircraft that have installed the family couch and they still need to pay the license fee for all pf them every year until the contract for each of them end. But by terminating the product offer, they would not need to introduce it on their any other new aircraft and thus limit their losses.
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StudiodeKadent
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Re: CI Disappointed with NZ Skycouch (Family Couch)

Sun Jan 06, 2019 1:21 pm

Given the licensing requirements and the extra weight the product adds, I can see the downside. Geven's Piuma Sofa may end up being a better option for a lot of airlines. But seriously, skycouch is an interesting idea yet has implementation issues.

The product in general needs to be marketed widely, not JUST to families. I mean, the press here in Aus/NZ called the product "cuddle class" and constantly made insinuations about couples snuggling in rather intimate ways, so that helped avoid the product being pigeon-holed as 'families only.'
 
trex8
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Re: CI Disappointed with NZ Skycouch (Family Couch)

Mon Jan 07, 2019 2:22 am

Arent ANA putting them on their new A380?
 
trex8
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Re: CI Disappointed with NZ Skycouch (Family Couch)

Mon Jan 07, 2019 2:23 am

Arent ANA putting them on their new A380?
 
Ziyulu
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Re: CI Disappointed with NZ Skycouch (Family Couch)

Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:03 am

On a full flight, is it possible to get such seats for free? Like economy plus, you get assigned those seats if everything else is taken. What if not everyone wanted the couch?
 
tullamarine
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Re: CI Disappointed with NZ Skycouch (Family Couch)

Mon Jan 07, 2019 6:08 am

Ziyulu wrote:
On a full flight, is it possible to get such seats for free? Like economy plus, you get assigned those seats if everything else is taken. What if not everyone wanted the couch?

Skycouch is basically 3 Y seats sold and allocated to 2 pax and then, the seat converting into a small (and quite narrow) bed that both can (try to) sleep across. On a full flight, there would be no SkyCouch available as the seats would have been sold as 3 Y seats.
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smi0006
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Re: CI Disappointed with NZ Skycouch (Family Couch)

Mon Jan 07, 2019 6:22 am

[twoid][/twoid]
tullamarine wrote:
Ziyulu wrote:
On a full flight, is it possible to get such seats for free? Like economy plus, you get assigned those seats if everything else is taken. What if not everyone wanted the couch?

Skycouch is basically 3 Y seats sold and allocated to 2 pax and then, the seat converting into a small (and quite narrow) bed that both can (try to) sleep across. On a full flight, there would be no SkyCouch available as the seats would have been sold as 3 Y seats.


Sky couch can be purchased by 1adult only, or two adults, or two adults and a child.

But if you are a solo or couple traveling and sit in the row of three seats and haven’t paid the extra for skycouch the crew won’t make them up into a bed with linen, I believe something is required to latch the foot ready to the seat in front. They will only do this if you’ve paid for them.
 
Ziyulu
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Re: CI Disappointed with NZ Skycouch (Family Couch)

Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:06 pm

Sounds like a no deal for me. If I wanted to fly laying flat, I would choose Business Class. J class on many Chinese carriers is less than $2K trans-Pacific.

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