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MoKa777
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Airbus officially launches 251t A330neo variant

Tue Mar 20, 2018 10:17 pm

Hi everyone.

Exciting news!

https://leehamnews.com/2018/03/20/airbu ... more-26650

Airbus has today officially launched the much anticipated 251t version of the A330neo.

Reading the linked article and going through the slides, I remain impressed with this aircraft's gradual improvements over the decades. I hope that this latest improvement manages to breathe some new life into the project.
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Airbus officially launches 251t A330neo variant

Tue Mar 20, 2018 11:05 pm

If ETOPS had been introduced sooner, this would have made it unnecessary to make the A342/3 in any way, shape, or form. The A339 basically has the range of the A343.
 
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Polot
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Re: Airbus officially launches 251t A330neo variant

Tue Mar 20, 2018 11:10 pm

aemoreira1981 wrote:
If ETOPS had been introduced sooner, this would have made it unnecessary to make the A342/3 in any way, shape, or form. The A339 basically has the range of the A343.

The A339 is also using much more efficient engines. If ETOPs had been introduced sooner the A330 would have needed more fuel, thus more weight requiring more powerful engines (which in turn would burn more fuel, requiring more fuel for the trip), to take over the A340’s job.

In the end it would be similar in weight and thrust to the 77E.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Airbus officially launches 251t A330neo variant

Tue Mar 20, 2018 11:12 pm

aemoreira1981 wrote:
If ETOPS had been introduced sooner, this would have made it unnecessary to make the A342/3 in any way, shape, or form. The A339 basically has the range of the A343.


Not really true. The performance of the A339 is the result of 25 years of development, improved wings and much newer engines. None of those things were in play when the A330 first flew and didn't have anywhere near the range it has today.
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Newbiepilot
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Re: Airbus officially launches 251t A330neo variant

Tue Mar 20, 2018 11:22 pm

Are they launching with an actual launch customer? I read through Leehamnews’ commentary about how great the A330 is but couldn’t if the airplane actually lauched with an order.
 
NW747-400
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Re: Airbus officially launches 251t A330neo variant

Tue Mar 20, 2018 11:25 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
Are they launching with an actual launch customer? I read through Leehamnews’ commentary about how great the A330 is but couldn’t if the airplane actually lauched with an order.


Delta is rumored to be delaying a number of A339 deliveries so they can take the 251t model.
 
ap305
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Re: Airbus officially launches 251t A330neo variant

Tue Mar 20, 2018 11:29 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
Are they launching with an actual launch customer? I read through Leehamnews’ commentary about how great the A330 is but couldn’t if the airplane actually lauched with an order.


Air and Cosmos reports they have 4 launch customers.... so you can rest easy....
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Re: Airbus officially launches 251t A330neo variant

Tue Mar 20, 2018 11:33 pm

NW747-400 wrote:
Newbiepilot wrote:
Are they launching with an actual launch customer? I read through Leehamnews’ commentary about how great the A330 is but couldn’t if the airplane actually lauched with an order.


Delta is rumored to be delaying a number of A339 deliveries so they can take the 251t model.


That's interesting. Why would they, with the 777s, 77Ls, 333 242Ts, and A350s in the fleet? I might have thought the first 339 receipts would effectively replace the few 767s which are now being retired.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Airbus officially launches 251t A330neo variant

Tue Mar 20, 2018 11:47 pm

It looks like the people within Airbus who wanted to protect the A350 from being undercut by the A330neo has lost out, presumably due to A330neo's slower than expected sales pace.
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mikejepp
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Re: Airbus officially launches 251t A330neo variant

Tue Mar 20, 2018 11:57 pm

When was the last time there was a prototype of an airline variant built and in testing without any outstanding orders?
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Airbus officially launches 251t A330neo variant

Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:10 am

[threeid][/threeid]
NW747-400 wrote:
Newbiepilot wrote:
Are they launching with an actual launch customer? I read through Leehamnews’ commentary about how great the A330 is but couldn’t if the airplane actually lauched with an order.


Delta is rumored to be delaying a number of A339 deliveries so they can take the 251t model.


Wouldn’t be surprised. They took the first 242t A330-300 and used it to go LAX-HND. JFK-TLV was also changed to a lighter plane (242t A333 instead of 299t B77E). United should also consider this 251t A339 to replace 77Es...similar range but 48t lighter. That’s the model most affected.
 
caverunner17
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Re: Airbus officially launches 251t A330neo variant

Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:15 am

Wouldn't this negate the a350-900 except for the longest or most cargo heavy routes? If this actually has more range than the 77E, then TPAC from the East coast shouldn't be an issue (UA already flies EWR-HKG with a 77E).
 
mikejepp
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Re: Airbus officially launches 251t A330neo variant

Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:21 am

This seems like the ideal plane for AA to switch their (apparently unwanted) A350 orders to. They already have a sizable A330 fleet and they have a large, and aging, 777-200ER fleet that will need replacing in the coming years.

Maybe they've been waiting for this to announce what they're doing with the A350 order?
 
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Re: Airbus officially launches 251t A330neo variant

Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:32 am

If RR engines are not an issue, an efficient twin 343 sounds very possibly AR's next gen widebody, in particular for Europe flights... until now I was betting on the 787
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Re: Airbus officially launches 251t A330neo variant

Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:45 am

Revelation wrote:
It looks like the people within Airbus who wanted to protect the A350 from being undercut by the A330neo has lost out, presumably due to A330neo's slower than expected sales pace.


Not really because the A350 is already being improved as well.
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Re: Airbus officially launches 251t A330neo variant

Wed Mar 21, 2018 1:43 am

caverunner17 wrote:
Wouldn't this negate the a350-900 except for the longest or most cargo heavy routes? If this actually has more range than the 77E, then TPAC from the East coast shouldn't be an issue (UA already flies EWR-HKG with a 77E).

Airbus is cutting its own lunch making a cheaper product so close to the payload performance of the A350. It's like the two products are made by different manufacturers.

It would be like Boeing making a 767-400MAX and selling it super cheap just as the 787 productiin was ramping up. Silly stuff.

So once the A330NEO orders dry up and they start doing massive discounts it not only reduces the profit margin on the A330NEO itself but will also reduce the amount they can charge for a A350-900.

They could be increasing the production rate of the A350 by 50% and that would result in the price per aircraft going down.

It's so short sighted just to get some quick sales before the A350 production ramps up. The lack of availability of the A350 will disappear within a few years then I can't see any positives.
 
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Re: Airbus officially launches 251t A330neo variant

Wed Mar 21, 2018 1:59 am

Delta has indeed deferred the delivery of the first A330-900neo until 2020, the projected launch date. I'm going to go out on a limb and say Delta will be the launch carrier for the 251 tonne version, just as they were the launch carrier for the 242 tonne A330-300. The 251 tonne A330-990neo essentially is a "low-cost" 777-200ER replacement. I mentioned in an earlier post Delta could convert the final ten A350-900s into A330-900neos. This makes it more likely that will happen as the range of the A330-900neo covers pretty much all of Delta's current and future A350-900neo routes. Is it possible for Delta to convert their 15 A350-900s, which are 275 tonne, into 280 tonne, similar to how they raised the MTOW on their 777-200ER fleet in order to launch nonstop flights to India back in 2008, before the 777-200LR was available?
 
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Re: Airbus officially launches 251t A330neo variant

Wed Mar 21, 2018 2:02 am

RJMAZ wrote:
Airbus is cutting its own lunch making a cheaper product so close to the payload performance of the A350. It's like the two products are made by different manufacturers..

The order book doesn't show that.
A330neo 214
A350 854
 
Newbiepilot
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Re: Airbus officially launches 251t A330neo variant

Wed Mar 21, 2018 2:47 am

airbazar wrote:
RJMAZ wrote:
Airbus is cutting its own lunch making a cheaper product so close to the payload performance of the A350. It's like the two products are made by different manufacturers..

The order book doesn't show that.
A330neo 214
A350 854


It kind of does show it. Some A330neo orders were A350 conversions. There have only been 42 net orders since 2014 (the year of the A330neo launch).
 
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Re: Airbus officially launches 251t A330neo variant

Wed Mar 21, 2018 2:50 am

ap305 wrote:
Newbiepilot wrote:
Are they launching with an actual launch customer? I read through Leehamnews’ commentary about how great the A330 is but couldn’t if the airplane actually lauched with an order.


Air and Cosmos reports they have 4 launch customers.... so you can rest easy....


That is good news. Could the 251ton version be what kept Air Asia X with the A330neo? There were concerns about the airplane having enough range for them, so they may be a launch customer.
 
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Re: Airbus officially launches 251t A330neo variant

Wed Mar 21, 2018 2:53 am

I really wonder how efficient the aircraft is at its extreme range. My bet is it's very good at shorter ranges compared to the 787, but at longer ranges its efficiency drops off and both the 787 and A350 will be much better.

Nice to have the flexibility, but I think if you're mostly flying very long haul you'll look at other aircraft.
 
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Re: Airbus officially launches 251t A330neo variant

Wed Mar 21, 2018 3:21 am

scbriml wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:
If ETOPS had been introduced sooner, this would have made it unnecessary to make the A342/3 in any way, shape, or form. The A339 basically has the range of the A343.


Not really true. The performance of the A339 is the result of 25 years of development, improved wings and much newer engines. None of those things were in play when the A330 first flew and didn't have anywhere near the range it has today.


If it was done sooner those new engines would not have existed and it could not have been done.
 
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Re: Airbus officially launches 251t A330neo variant

Wed Mar 21, 2018 5:37 am

kurtverbose wrote:
I really wonder how efficient the aircraft is at its extreme range. My bet is it's very good at shorter ranges compared to the 787, but at longer ranges its efficiency drops off and both the 787 and A350 will be much better.

Nice to have the flexibility, but I think if you're mostly flying very long haul you'll look at other aircraft.


It's really going to depend on costs of both the aircraft on a lease/purchase and fuel burn. In theory, you could replace almost all west coast US TPAC flying with a 339 now (except for the SIN flights), not to mention all TATL traffic. Based on a few seat maps I've seen, it looks like the A350 might seat 20 more in economy (or so) due to the 9x seating, but J and PE seem similar, but the A330 Neo presentation I've seen says that it gains 10 seats (probably a row) so that number might be reduced to only 10 seats different. Not much.

If you were an Airbus-only airline, you could probably order 75% A339's and 25% A350's to cover those extreme flights that required more payload or the fringe range. Or look at LH/LX/AF/BA. The 351T 339 pretty much covers their entire route network.

It'll be interesting what comes of this.
 
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Re: Airbus officially launches 251t A330neo variant

Wed Mar 21, 2018 5:58 am

RJMAZ wrote:
caverunner17 wrote:
Wouldn't this negate the a350-900 except for the longest or most cargo heavy routes? If this actually has more range than the 77E, then TPAC from the East coast shouldn't be an issue (UA already flies EWR-HKG with a 77E).

Airbus is cutting its own lunch making a cheaper product so close to the payload performance of the A350. It's like the two products are made by different manufacturers.

Sure, but think about it: if you were Airbus, and you had a potential customer looking for 225-250 seats @ 6000nm range, but felt that the A359 was too much plane..... you now have an A339 to offer them.

If you didn't, that customer would be making a guaranteed beeline to Chicago/Seattle for a 789.

This allows Airbus a 2pronged approach to its sales, which is almost always an advantage to have.



DeSpringbokke wrote:
Is it possible for Delta to convert their 15 A350-900s, which are 275 tonne, into 280 tonne, similar to how they raised the MTOW on their 777-200ER fleet in order to launch nonstop flights to India back in 2008, before the 777-200LR was available?

DL's current A359s are 268 tonne.

Airbus hasn't made it clear if pre-2020 vintage non-ULR A359s can be retroactively upgraded to 280T, but I'd be shocked if their current aircraft can't go to the 278T weight now being offered.
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Re: Airbus officially launches 251t A330neo variant

Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:10 am

kurtverbose wrote:
I really wonder how efficient the aircraft is at its extreme range. My bet is it's very good at shorter ranges compared to the 787, but at longer ranges its efficiency drops off and both the 787 and A350 will be much better.

Nice to have the flexibility, but I think if you're mostly flying very long haul you'll look at other aircraft.


With a higher aspect ratio wing than the 787, the heavier it is, the more advantage it should see.
I know some claim the fuel burn comparison to the 787 is worse at range, but I'm not buying it.
Parasitic drag should be similar between a 787-9 and A330-900.
Induced drag should favour the A330-900.

The issue for the A330-900 at extreme range will be that
a) it has a 3t lower MTOW
b) it has a slightly heavier airframe (Al vs CRP)

It therefore won't carry the same payload at the edge of the envelope as the 787-9.

Rgds
 
FromCDGtoSYD
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Re: Airbus officially launches 251t A330neo variant

Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:38 am

astuteman wrote:
b) it has a slightly heavier airframe (Al vs CRP)


I recall reading MZFW for A330-900 was actually slightly lower than for 787-9. Can anyone confirm or deny this ?
 
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Re: Airbus officially launches 251t A330neo variant

Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:10 am

astuteman wrote:
With a higher aspect ratio wing than the 787, the heavier it is, the more advantage it should see.
I know some claim the fuel burn comparison to the 787 is worse at range, but I'm not buying it.
Parasitic drag should be similar between a 787-9 and A330-900.
Induced drag should favour the A330-900.

The issue for the A330-900 at extreme range will be that
a) it has a 3t lower MTOW
b) it has a slightly heavier airframe (Al vs CRP)

It therefore won't carry the same payload at the edge of the envelope as the 787-9.

Rgds


Aspect ratio or not, the 787 wing is a generation ahead of the A330 wing.

Think there was a thread on frame weight, and the 787 was found (by most) to be a little heavier. Don't quote me on that though.

I just find it hard to believe that most of the tech advances over 20 years from A330 to 787 were invested in range, and now with new engines and a MTOW bump the A330 is competitive ignoring purchase cost, where it is ahead.

It will be interesting to see how the numbers pan out. Would like to see the eventual real world figures.
 
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Re: Airbus officially launches 251t A330neo variant

Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:30 am

It is interesting to hear today that the A330neo is pitched against the 787 while the A350 is pitched more and more against the 777-9 and 777-8.

It is also interesting to note that the initial A350 was also an A330 powered by 787's based engines. Back then there was a choice between the GEnx derivative or Trent 1000 derivative. The A330neo is now exclusively powered by Trent 7000 which is a Trent 1000 family.

I believe Airbus has a window of opportunity to sell A330neo, but this window of opportunity will not last very long. It should start to close by the middle of 2020. There is no doubt the sales effort must be done this year and next, on all fronts.
 
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Re: Airbus officially launches 251t A330neo variant

Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:39 am

airbazar wrote:
RJMAZ wrote:
Airbus is cutting its own lunch making a cheaper product so close to the payload performance of the A350. It's like the two products are made by different manufacturers..

The order book doesn't show that.
A330neo 214
A350 854


The A350 is sold out for many years. That's why. Filling the mature A330 line doesn't seem like a bad idea, unless you want it to be.. With this significant MTOW boost, airlines can fill out the cargo hold on more flights.
Last edited by keesje on Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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jagraham
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Re: Airbus officially launches 251t A330neo variant

Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:50 am

kurtverbose wrote:
I really wonder how efficient the aircraft is at its extreme range. My bet is it's very good at shorter ranges compared to the 787, but at longer ranges its efficiency drops off and both the 787 and A350 will be much better.

Nice to have the flexibility, but I think if you're mostly flying very long haul you'll look at other aircraft.


The engine is a 787 engine (with bleed air). The A339 appears to be 6kg heavier than the A333, which seems reasonable considering the engine. The 789 OEW is 6kg heavier than the A333, so about even with the A339. Wing area is 361 m^2 for A333, about 370 for A339, and 377 for 789, not much difference. Aspect ratio is about 10 for A333, about 10.5 for A339. and 11 for 789. So the primary difference is aspect ratio, and wing sweep (30 deg for A333 and A339, 32.2 deg for 789.

The 789 is better, but by less than 5%. Except for MTOW and resultant range.
 
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Taxi645
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Re: Airbus officially launches 251t A330neo variant

Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:21 am

jagraham wrote:
kurtverbose wrote:
I really wonder how efficient the aircraft is at its extreme range. My bet is it's very good at shorter ranges compared to the 787, but at longer ranges its efficiency drops off and both the 787 and A350 will be much better.

Nice to have the flexibility, but I think if you're mostly flying very long haul you'll look at other aircraft.


The engine is a 787 engine (with bleed air). The A339 appears to be 6kg heavier than the A333, which seems reasonable considering the engine. The 789 OEW is 6kg heavier than the A333, so about even with the A339. Wing area is 361 m^2 for A333, about 370 for A339, and 377 for 789, not much difference. Aspect ratio is about 10 for A333, about 10.5 for A339. and 11 for 789. So the primary difference is aspect ratio, and wing sweep (30 deg for A333 and A339, 32.2 deg for 789.

The 789 is better, but by less than 5%. Except for MTOW and resultant range.


In what way can a wing with less span and a higher aspect ratio have more wing area?
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jagraham
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Re: Airbus officially launches 251t A330neo variant

Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:21 am

VV wrote:
jagraham wrote:
[.....] The A339 appears to be 6kg heavier than the A333, which seems reasonable considering the engine. [....]



Typo?


No typo
 
VV
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Re: Airbus officially launches 251t A330neo variant

Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:21 am

jagraham wrote:
[.....] The A339 appears to be 6kg heavier than the A333, which seems reasonable considering the engine. [....]



Typo?
 
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Re: Airbus officially launches 251t A330neo variant

Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:26 am

Taxi645 wrote:
jagraham wrote:
kurtverbose wrote:
I really wonder how efficient the aircraft is at its extreme range. My bet is it's very good at shorter ranges compared to the 787, but at longer ranges its efficiency drops off and both the 787 and A350 will be much better.

Nice to have the flexibility, but I think if you're mostly flying very long haul you'll look at other aircraft.


The engine is a 787 engine (with bleed air). The A339 appears to be 6kg heavier than the A333, which seems reasonable considering the engine. The 789 OEW is 6kg heavier than the A333, so about even with the A339. Wing area is 361 m^2 for A333, about 370 for A339, and 377 for 789, not much difference. Aspect ratio is about 10 for A333, about 10.5 for A339. and 11 for 789. So the primary difference is aspect ratio, and wing sweep (30 deg for A333 and A339, 32.2 deg for 789.

The 789 is better, but by less than 5%. Except for MTOW and resultant range.


In what way can a wing with less span and a higher aspect ratio have more wing area?


Huge sharklets. It all depends on how you count the sharklets.

But as I said, it's quite close. Especially for the A339
 
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Re: Airbus officially launches 251t A330neo variant

Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:33 am

RJMAZ wrote:
caverunner17 wrote:
Wouldn't this negate the a350-900 except for the longest or most cargo heavy routes? If this actually has more range than the 77E, then TPAC from the East coast shouldn't be an issue (UA already flies EWR-HKG with a 77E).

Airbus is cutting its own lunch making a cheaper product so close to the payload performance of the A350. It's like the two products are made by different manufacturers.

It would be like Boeing making a 767-400MAX and selling it super cheap just as the 787 productiin was ramping up. Silly stuff.

So once the A330NEO orders dry up and they start doing massive discounts it not only reduces the profit margin on the A330NEO itself but will also reduce the amount they can charge for a A350-900.

They could be increasing the production rate of the A350 by 50% and that would result in the price per aircraft going down.

It's so short sighted just to get some quick sales before the A350 production ramps up. The lack of availability of the A350 will disappear within a few years then I can't see any positives.


As if Airbus could do anything right according to your opinion... In another thread you stated that the A32X will be obsolete and now this. Perhaps Airbus should just go out of business? :white:
 
dare100em
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Re: Airbus officially launches 251t A330neo variant

Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:36 am

He probably meant 6.000 kg or 6t which is about correct. :shock:

Most of the 787 advances are based on more modern aerodynamics, the weight and capabilities between the A330-900 and a 787-9 are very very close. Up until about 2000 nm the full burn will be nearly equal, however even a A330-300 has about the same full burn up to 1000 nm [than A300-900 or 787-9].
 
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Re: Airbus officially launches 251t A330neo variant

Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:48 am

Newbiepilot wrote:
It kind of does show it. Some A330neo orders were A350 conversions. There have only been 42 net orders since 2014 (the year of the A330neo launch).


IIRC, all A350 to A330neo conversions were by customers who ordered the -800.

Only 42 net orders of A350s? You need a better source for your numbers. :yes:
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mjoelnir
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Re: Airbus officially launches 251t A330neo variant

Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:15 am

Revelation wrote:
It looks like the people within Airbus who wanted to protect the A350 from being undercut by the A330neo has lost out, presumably due to A330neo's slower than expected sales pace.


I think protecting the A350 was just pure a.net logic. Airbus had opened for the 251 t version a while ago and now the work is done.
 
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keesje
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Re: Airbus officially launches 251t A330neo variant

Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:16 am

We had a long A339-787-9 discussion on the topic last year:

Image
(A339 242t version)

https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1352139

This large MTOW boost seems a direct attack o the 787-9/787-10.

Strong points of the 787-9 I see are:
- overhead crew rest options, saving cabin/ cargo space
- engine choice, GE / GECAS in addition to RR
- availability of the 787-10 as future growth option

Seat capacity seems similar looking at e.g. Virgin A333 and 787-9's.

Maintenance is interesting, while Boeing boosts long term MRO benefits, I wonder how this has panned out for operators. Is Boeing GoldCare offering razor sharp discounts? I seriously doubt it. An A330 however can be overhauled globally, in dozens of competing places and so its components, lading gears, APU's etc.

The A330's have wider, quieter seats. I avoid the 787 3-3-3, but it seems many others love it..

Other A330 strong points could be
- 2020 slot availability.
- China based completion line.
- 100 existing global A330 operators starting to look for replacements.
- good end of life rest value for freighter conversion
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Momo1435
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Re: Airbus officially launches 251t A330neo variant

Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:19 am

scbriml wrote:
Newbiepilot wrote:
It kind of does show it. Some A330neo orders were A350 conversions. There have only been 42 net orders since 2014 (the year of the A330neo launch).


IIRC, all A350 to A330neo conversions were by customers who ordered the -800.

Only 42 net orders of A350s? You need a better source for your numbers. :yes:

A350 order total end of 2013: 812
A350 order total end of 2017: 854

net = 42

Blame Emirates.


The TAP order conversion was from 12 A350-900 to 14 A330-900. The other one larger was the Hawaiian conversion, which has now been completely cancelled. So right now there are currently no A350-800 to A330neo conversion left on the Airbus order book. Lessor ALC also cancelled a couple of A350s (4) in favor of a mix of A330neo's (2) and a number A320/1neo's.

With the large backlog of the A350 I don't think that Airbus will be worried about this new A330 version hurting A350 sales. The A350 will pick up enough orders to fill the production slots.
 
rheinwaldner
Posts: 1750
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 4:58 pm

Re: Airbus officially launches 251t A330neo variant

Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:19 am

RJMAZ wrote:
I can't see any positives.

Try harder. It was never so easy as in this case! You surely find any positive aspect in this.
Many things are difficult, all things are possible!
 
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enzo011
Posts: 1687
Joined: Tue Jun 21, 2011 8:12 am

Re: Airbus officially launches 251t A330neo variant

Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:34 am

mjoelnir wrote:
Revelation wrote:
It looks like the people within Airbus who wanted to protect the A350 from being undercut by the A330neo has lost out, presumably due to A330neo's slower than expected sales pace.


I think protecting the A350 was just pure a.net logic. Airbus had opened for the 251 t version a while ago and now the work is done.



If airlines are able to have both the 789 and A359 in their fleets then I see no reason why the A339 and A359 shouldn't work either. While they are relatively close in capacity the A339 is much more a 789 competitor while the A359 is bigger so may just have different missions in mind for an airline when looking at fleet decisions.
 
CRJ900
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Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2004 2:48 am

Re: Airbus officially launches 251t A330neo variant

Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:36 am

My impression is that the A359 has turned out to be "bigger" than expected for airlines. I saw the A359 as a three-class 250-275-seater, but airlines are putting in 280-336 seats with spacious premium seats and still manage to fly 12-16-hour nonstops - it's a big bird with big capabilities.

SAS has delayed the entry into service of their first A359 to 2019. They took four 242T A333 last year and I can definetly see SAS convert part or all of the A359 order into the 251T A339. SAS is now focussing on better yields and not just volume (like DY) and the A359 may be too big.

How will a 251T A339 compare with a 275T A340-300? Will the A339 manage to fly most of the A343 routes as fuel burn is better? What was the intial MTOW of the first A343 that LH and AF took back in the 1990s?
Come, fly the prevailing winds with me
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 8508
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Re: Airbus officially launches 251t A330neo variant

Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:45 am

dare100em wrote:
He probably meant 6.000 kg or 6t which is about correct. :shock:

Most of the 787 advances are based on more modern aerodynamics, the weight and capabilities between the A330-900 and a 787-9 are very very close. Up until about 2000 nm the full burn will be nearly equal, however even a A330-300 has about the same full burn up to 1000 nm [than A300-900 or 787-9].


There are no final numbers yet stated from Airbus about the OEW difference between the A330-200/300 and A330-800/900. If it is the difference in engine weight, it will be 2 * 1.6 t = 3.2 t.
 
WIederling
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Re: Airbus officially launches 251t A330neo variant

Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:52 am

Revelation wrote:
It looks like the people within Airbus who wanted to protect the A350 from being undercut by the A330neo has lost out, presumably due to A330neo's slower than expected sales pace.


With the 251t A330 version they now have a set of
4 staggered sizes with more or less comparable range
( A338, A339, A359, A3510 ) the 339 being a bit of a drop out.

How does seat mile cost compare across the range?
Murphy is an optimist
 
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keesje
Posts: 13178
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

Re: Airbus officially launches 251t A330neo variant

Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:53 am

The A339 vs A359 battle discussion is non sense IMO

Different aircraft, different customer bases.

Many A350-900 customers have A350-1000s on order too / as conversion options in their contracts.

The A350 is sold out for years now & airlines get the same single sales guy that can play with slots, prices, conditions as suits the situations.

Image
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
Egerton
Posts: 864
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2015 9:50 am

Re: Airbus officially launches 251t A330neo variant

Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:29 am

mikejepp wrote:
When was the last time there was a prototype of an airline variant built and in testing without any outstanding orders?


Bristol Brabazon? First flight 03 September 1949. Wing span 70 m. Eight Bristol Centaurus radial engines. Empty 65,820 kg. Built to a government spec.
 
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Francoflier
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Re: Airbus officially launches 251t A330neo variant

Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:58 am

Did this MTOW increase came with any MZFW or MLW increase?

A 9T jump is quite a lot for this airframe, so is this all for fuel/range, or will it allow operators to squeeze a bit more payload in it?

If you ask me, I find it a bit fruitless to only add range without adding payload, as you just end up competing with much more efficient long range airplanes.

I am still impressed to see this airframe's continued improvement and growth.
Does anybody know if they are beefing up the brakes a bit for the heavier weight variants?
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
Bricktop
Posts: 1378
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 11:04 am

Re: Airbus officially launches 251t A330neo variant

Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:02 am

keesje wrote:
The A339 vs A359 battle discussion is non sense IMO

Different aircraft, different customer bases.

Many A350-900 customers have A350-1000s on order too / as conversion options in their contracts.

The A350 is sold out for years now & airlines get the same single sales guy that can play with slots, prices, conditions as suits the situations.

Image

Perhaps, but it could be a nice win for Airbus if they can get some airlines to downgauge/rightsize from the A359 to the new version A339 and free up some A359/10 slots.
 
mat66
Posts: 307
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 1:12 am

Re: Airbus officially launches 251t A330neo variant

Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:21 am

Francoflier wrote:
Did this MTOW increase came with any MZFW or MLW increase?

A 9T jump is quite a lot for this airframe, so is this all for fuel/range, or will it allow operators to squeeze a bit more payload in it?

If you ask me, I find it a bit fruitless to only add range without adding payload, as you just end up competing with much more efficient long range airplanes.

I am still impressed to see this airframe's continued improvement and growth.
Does anybody know if they are beefing up the brakes a bit for the heavier weight variants?


The leeham article left out this slide from the Airbus presentation yesterday.
I got this from a tweet of @RAeSTimR

Tweaks to A330neo will give 251t MTOW with extra (+650nm) range. (Or 1,450nm more than typical A330ceo). EIS 2020 #avgeek https://twitter.com/RAeSTimR/status/976 ... 92/photo/1

edit : MZFW and MLW was already very similar to the 787. No advantage there for either. The A350 on the other hand has quite some tons more.
Last edited by mat66 on Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

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