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Jayafe
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MAD expansion approved

Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:59 pm

New investment approved to (finally) get T123 refurbished and update to decent construction standards and getting more room for security, check in and luggage. Also includes a T4S expansion with 7 new gates and new remote stands (4E or 2F), both on the north side. Not sure how this will affect the operations in 36R, especially for hot&high flights fully loaded.

The target is host up to 80m passengers, from the current capacity of 70m, investing € 1.571m until 2026. Last year MAD handled +53m million passengers.

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Hagic
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Re: MAD expansion approved

Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:12 am

I never thought I was going to see any additional EUR spent on this airport after all the backlash for the 4 Billion EUR spent on 15L/33R, 18L/36R, T4 and T4s.

It turned out to be one of the very few infrastructure projects that wasn't a waste of money in the Zapatero era.

T4 and T4s are really great. Passport control and baggage claim on T4 are always effective and swift. Even the transition on the underground light gives some entertainment. Both terminals give you a huge sense of space, they're always quiet and relaxing and give you 360 views of the action on the tarmac.

Very different from T1, T2 and T3. The renovations are long due.
There's only one freedom of the press: The freedom of the survivors - (G. Arciniegas)
 
r2rho
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Re: MAD expansion approved

Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:11 pm

Honestly I find T123 to be quite decent for your average EU flight. They may pale architecturally in comparison to magnificent T4, but not in comparison to many other Western airports, and they have been kept reasonably up to date given their age. Comparing them to other Western terminals from that same era, T123 fare much better.
However, having been originally designed for DC-10's with 60% load factors, they are quite unsuited to handle modern widebody flights.

The lack of airside space at T123 could easily be solved by reducing shopping space, which has become overly invasive and out of control in the past 5 years, becoming a real impediment to efficient passenger flow. Landside, there is not much margin in T123 without expanding the buildings and shifting the roadway access.

Anyway, glad to see some investment in T123, which are the terminals closest to capacity right now.
Last edited by r2rho on Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:30 pm, edited 4 times in total.
 
r2rho
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Re: MAD expansion approved

Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:23 pm

I never thought I was going to see any additional EUR spent on this airport after all the backlash for the 4 Billion EUR spent on 15L/33R, 18L/36R, T4 and T4s.
It turned out to be one of the very few infrastructure projects that wasn't a waste of money in the Zapatero era.

It was actually 6,185 million EUR in the end, including all cost incresases. MAD will one day be remembered as the last great new airport project (much more than an expansion as it was a completely new airport next to the old one, more than duplicating its size) to ever be succesfully executed in Europe. It is both an efficient design as well as architecturally impressive - most Western airports are only one of those two, if at all.
Amazing, even after adjusting the 6 billion for inflation, what MAD got out of that money, when you compare it to other projects these days... BER will be spending more than that on a ghost airport that, if it ever opens, will have a fraction of MAD's capacity.

P.S. All the planning and the start of construction was done in the Aznar era, Zapatero was just lucky enough to be in power for the inauguration. I agree nearly all infrastructure projects of his era were a waste.
 
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OA260
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Re: MAD expansion approved

Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:28 pm

Hagic wrote:

T4 and T4s are really great. Passport control and baggage claim on T4 are always effective and swift. Even the transition on the underground light gives some entertainment. Both terminals give you a huge sense of space, they're always quiet and relaxing and give you 360 views of the action on the tarmac.

Very different from T1, T2 and T3. The renovations are long due.


Agreed love T4/4S such a well designed building. I used T1/T2 and its like going back in time and not in a good sense. Any upgrade is a welcome one.
 
LupineChemist
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Re: MAD expansion approved

Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:33 pm

The end area of T1 where the US flights leave from is nice and I actually quite like T3, but T2 and the rest of T1 are a dump and renovations are sorely needed for even basic things like having Schengen flights leave into the departures area for better connections.

Hopefully they can also figure out a better system for connecting the terminals, both airside for non-Schengen T1 to T4S and a better landside connection than the awful bus.

Maybe even do something like LHR does where you can take the metro for free within the airport.
 
CaliguyNYC
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Re: MAD expansion approved

Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:42 pm

My issue with T2 is one small on - why no fast food chains? And one bigger - the new subway line doesn't seem to be designed for a quick shot to the city center. Thankfully the taxis are reasonably cheap. The lounges are also poor (but have improved with the renovation). Otherwise, I see nothing really wrong with them. In fact I think it's a waste of money to renovate something that doesn't need it.
 
LupineChemist
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Re: MAD expansion approved

Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:49 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
My issue with T2 is one small on - why no fast food chains? And one bigger - the new subway line doesn't seem to be designed for a quick shot to the city center. Thankfully the taxis are reasonably cheap. The lounges are also poor (but have improved with the renovation). Otherwise, I see nothing really wrong with them. In fact I think it's a waste of money to renovate something that doesn't need it.


??? There is a 100 Montaditos in T2 and a BK that I'm not sure if it's T1 or T2 but is definitely usable for T2.

Also, the best train into the city for effectiveness and cost is the cercanías from T4.
 
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Jayafe
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Re: MAD expansion approved

Thu Mar 22, 2018 2:18 pm

Regardng the VIP lounges, the one in T1 is the only place airside (if I´m not wrong) where you have a smoking terrace. Hope they´ll keep it.

Map of areas for improvement:
Image
 
LupineChemist
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Re: MAD expansion approved

Thu Mar 22, 2018 2:31 pm

Jayafe wrote:
Regardng the VIP lounges, the one in T1 is the only place airside (if I´m not wrong) where you have a smoking terrace. Hope they´ll keep it.



I believe you are right as well. I'm not a smoker but that terrace is great on spring/summer mornings for spotting, too. That is a surprisingly good lounge so I doubt there is much need to do much other than maybe a facelift.
 
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lugie
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Re: MAD expansion approved

Thu Mar 22, 2018 2:45 pm

LupineChemist wrote:
CaliguyNYC wrote:
My issue with T2 is one small on - why no fast food chains? And one bigger - the new subway line doesn't seem to be designed for a quick shot to the city center. Thankfully the taxis are reasonably cheap. The lounges are also poor (but have improved with the renovation). Otherwise, I see nothing really wrong with them. In fact I think it's a waste of money to renovate something that doesn't need it.


??? There is a 100 Montaditos in T2 and a BK that I'm not sure if it's T1 or T2 but is definitely usable for T2.

Also, the best train into the city for effectiveness and cost is the cercanías from T4.


The Cercanías train is definitely the fastest and cheapest way to get to the city but it can be inconvenient since it only runs every 30 minutes as opposed to the 5-10 minute headways of the Metro. Also if you arrive in T123 and need to get up to T4 first before backtracking on the Cercanías its advantage is almost lost.

As for connectivity this really depends on where you're headed within the city - M8 takes what, around 20-25 minutes to Nuevos Ministerios? from there you can easily connect onwards to many places on other metro lines.
Cercanías is well suited if you need to get to Recoletos-Atocha-Principe Pio along its line or Puerta del Sol when you step over at Chamartín but further connections aren't exactly too practical.

That being said I agree with what other posters have already said - MAD should use the T123 overhaul to better connect these terminals to T4 (landside and airside).
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MapleLeaf789
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Re: MAD expansion approved

Thu Mar 22, 2018 3:02 pm

Was just looking at the airport map (terminals, taxiways and runways)

From a traffic control perspective, ground movements and approaches to these runways must be logistically challenging.
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ro1960
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Re: MAD expansion approved

Thu Mar 22, 2018 3:36 pm

MapleLeaf789 wrote:
Was just looking at the airport map (terminals, taxiways and runways)

From a traffic control perspective, ground movements and approaches to these runways must be logistically challenging.


I always found it to be a design flaw that when landing on 18L you had to go all the way around T4S and back track to reach the K gates at T4. It seems like a lot of unnecessary taxiing, burning a lot of fuel, lasting up to 15 minutes. Had 18R/36R been positioned further North, it would have been possible to reach the K gates with the detour.
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r2rho
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Re: MAD expansion approved

Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:39 pm

Hopefully they can also figure out a better system for connecting the terminals, both airside for non-Schengen T1 to T4S and a better landside connection than the awful bus.

Agree and unfortunately this seems to be missing from here. One of T123's problems is lack of widebody gates for growing airlines like DY and UX. Opening up T4S to non-oneworld members and linking it with the APM to T123 could be a solution.
Landside, making the metro free between terminals could provide some quick relief.

Map of areas for improvement:

The T4S extension seems to eat into a taxiway. Will a replacement taxiway be built? How will this affect 36R takeoffs / 18L landings?

As for connectivity this really depends on where you're headed within the city

It would be very easy to extend metro L5 up to T123, possibly even to T4 sharing tracks with L8. This would provide a one-seat connection to many more places than L8 can offer, and a one-interchange connection to almost anywhere.
One of L8's problems is that it only connects to 4 other lines, making most destinations an unattractive 2-interchange trip.
 
Hagic
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Re: MAD expansion approved

Fri Mar 23, 2018 2:02 am

ro1960 wrote:
MapleLeaf789 wrote:
I always found it to be a design flaw that when landing on 18L you had to go all the way around T4S and back track to reach the K gates at T4. It seems like a lot of unnecessary taxiing, burning a lot of fuel, lasting up to 15 minutes. Had 18R/36R been positioned further North, it would have been possible to reach the K gates with the detour.


I don't get it. Why don't the T4-bound planes land on 18R then?
There's only one freedom of the press: The freedom of the survivors - (G. Arciniegas)
 
LupineChemist
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Re: MAD expansion approved

Fri Mar 23, 2018 3:40 am

Hagic wrote:
ro1960 wrote:
MapleLeaf789 wrote:
I always found it to be a design flaw that when landing on 18L you had to go all the way around T4S and back track to reach the K gates at T4. It seems like a lot of unnecessary taxiing, burning a lot of fuel, lasting up to 15 minutes. Had 18R/36R been positioned further North, it would have been possible to reach the K gates with the detour.


I don't get it. Why don't the T4-bound planes land on 18R then?


It's basically an issue that's not very common since the preferred use is take off on 36 L/R and landing on 14 L/R It's probably 5% of the time that the config is landing from the north since the mountains make the wind pretty regular.
 
jmmadrid
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Re: MAD expansion approved

Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:10 am

One thing that I hope they fix is the access to the Metro. The station for T123 is at T2. However, what usually happens is that regardless of what gate you use to get off the plane, you have to walk all the way to the furthest corner of T1 to exit and then walk all the way back to T2, undoing your previous steps but on the opposite direction. Last week my flight used one of the gates in the border between T2 and T3 and it took me almost 30 minutes to reach the metro station, this was without clearing inmigration nor waiting for bags. Lots of walking that could be avoided with a simple T2 exit.
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Bambel
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Re: MAD expansion approved

Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:36 am

I went FRA-MAD-SCL on IB five years ago and at that time i was a smoker. IIRC we landed at T4 and i had to go outside to have a smoke. But there is no Exit at T4 (so i was told at least) and i had to go to T1 (or so). Took me like 30 minutes. Stairs, elevators, this monorail thing. It was very confusing. I'm off the pyros for some time now so it wouldn't bother me anymore.

BTW: the scheduled A346 was replaced by an A343, so this type is still missing on my log..

b.
 
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Jayafe
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Re: MAD expansion approved

Fri Mar 23, 2018 10:11 am

Bambel wrote:
I went FRA-MAD-SCL on IB five years ago and at that time i was a smoker. IIRC we landed at T4 and i had to go outside to have a smoke. But there is no Exit at T4 (so i was told at least) and i had to go to T1 (or so). Took me like 30 minutes. Stairs, elevators, this monorail thing. It was very confusing. I'm off the pyros for some time now so it wouldn't bother me anymore. .


You were told that there is no way to get out of T4? I highly doubt it :rotfl: Even probably Tom Hanks could have a good time there then

There is no direct exit from T4S (if you check the map becomes pretty obvious as it sits in the between 2 runaways). In that situation you can use the rail for going to T4 (5 min) and get out for smoking, but obv risking to not make it on time as you will need to pass security and customs again to get to the T4s for the SCL flight. No, there is no airside connection between T4 and T1, again check the map posted above to notice how far they are from each other. As said before T123 and T4/4S are basically 2 different airports sitting next to each other.

Image
 
SKAirbus
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Re: MAD expansion approved

Fri Mar 23, 2018 10:15 am

Hagic wrote:
I never thought I was going to see any additional EUR spent on this airport after all the backlash for the 4 Billion EUR spent on 15L/33R, 18L/36R, T4 and T4s.

It turned out to be one of the very few infrastructure projects that wasn't a waste of money in the Zapatero era.

T4 and T4s are really great. Passport control and baggage claim on T4 are always effective and swift. Even the transition on the underground light gives some entertainment. Both terminals give you a huge sense of space, they're always quiet and relaxing and give you 360 views of the action on the tarmac.

Very different from T1, T2 and T3. The renovations are long due.


LOL! You've got to be kidding about passport control and baggage reclaim right? I've flown into T4 many times and the baggage ALWAYS takes at least 45 minutes to arrive. It is a beautiful building to look at but it was of the most inefficiently run in Europe - I've never had to wait so long for my luggage before.
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Jayafe
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Re: MAD expansion approved

Fri Mar 23, 2018 10:25 am

Actually I just remembered that there is bus connection T4s to T1 (airside) that doesn’t involve internal walks. I still can’t figure out how that can be confusing.

PS: yes, waiting time for luggage sux, last flight from LIM took 50 mins to have it delivered (but when arriving to LIM took 1h20min....) Staff comments: “you can’t imagine how many kms of internal belts they have installed”
 
Bambel
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Re: MAD expansion approved

Fri Mar 23, 2018 10:49 am

Jayafe wrote:
There is no direct exit from T4S


Ah, ok. Then i guess it was T4S and i went to T4 (can't remember exactly, it's five years ago).

Realy a strange layout but, that happens on "evolutionary" development. When T3 opens at FRA the terminals will also be rather spread than compact.

thx
b.
 
r2rho
Posts: 3096
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Re: MAD expansion approved

Fri Mar 23, 2018 12:06 pm

One thing that I hope they fix is the access to the Metro.

Agree. Adding a direct walkway to T1 is also needed. Currently you have to take a series of moving walkways from T1 back to the middle of T2 in order to access the Metro, it's a needlessly long walk.

I've flown into T4 many times and the baggage ALWAYS takes at least 45 minutes to arrive.

This is true and seems to be an issue with the terminal design. The exact same thing happens at BCN T1. OTOH, baggage at MAD T123 and BCN T2 is pretty quick. This needs to be fixed. I have actually gone as far as booking with another airline when traveling with baggage to avoid MAD T4 / BCN T1.
 
LupineChemist
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Re: MAD expansion approved

Fri Mar 23, 2018 12:13 pm

I'm still not entirely sure how the T1 to T4S bus works even though I know it exists and it's an on-demand service, just seems like very few people actually use it.

And yeah, T4S could use a smoking lounge. Lots of people connecting non-schengen to non-schengen. I quit a few years ago now, but it's still something people are after, so doesn't seem so hard to make an outdoor area.
 
talonone
Posts: 63
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Re: MAD expansion approved

Fri Mar 23, 2018 3:02 pm

Hagic wrote:
I never thought I was going to see any additional EUR spent on this airport after all the backlash for the 4 Billion EUR spent on 15L/33R, 18L/36R, T4 and T4s.

It turned out to be one of the very few infrastructure projects that wasn't a waste of money in the Zapatero era.

T4 and T4s are really great. Passport control and baggage claim on T4 are always effective and swift. Even the transition on the underground light gives some entertainment. Both terminals give you a huge sense of space, they're always quiet and relaxing and give you 360 views of the action on the tarmac.

Very different from T1, T2 and T3. The renovations are long due.


The project was launch by the prime-minister from the popular party, at that time, Aznar :bouncy:
The space and human stupidity are endless. Maybe the space is not... but the human stupidity for sure!
 
Kadish
Posts: 378
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Re: MAD expansion approved

Fri Mar 23, 2018 4:13 pm

LupineChemist wrote:
CaliguyNYC wrote:
My issue with T2 is one small on - why no fast food chains? And one bigger - the new subway line doesn't seem to be designed for a quick shot to the city center. Thankfully the taxis are reasonably cheap. The lounges are also poor (but have improved with the renovation). Otherwise, I see nothing really wrong with them. In fact I think it's a waste of money to renovate something that doesn't need it.


??? There is a 100 Montaditos in T2 and a BK that I'm not sure if it's T1 or T2 but is definitely usable for T2.

Also, the best train into the city for effectiveness and cost is the cercanías from T4.


Yes there is a BK in the middle of T1/T2 more or less...but c’mon u r in Spain, everything there is better than a boring hamburger...even in an airport.
 
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OA260
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Re: MAD expansion approved

Fri Mar 23, 2018 7:03 pm

SKAirbus wrote:

LOL! You've got to be kidding about passport control and baggage reclaim right? I've flown into T4 many times and the baggage ALWAYS takes at least 45 minutes to arrive. It is a beautiful building to look at but it was of the most inefficiently run in Europe - I've never had to wait so long for my luggage before.


It depends in my experience and I have been through MAD a lot over the past few years. Sometimes I have got to the reclaim and the bag has just arrived or I stand there for 30 mins its about 50/50.
 
pabloeing
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Re: MAD expansion approved

Fri Mar 23, 2018 7:14 pm

T1 and T2 need a restyling......
 
LupineChemist
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Re: MAD expansion approved

Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:34 pm

Kadish wrote:

Yes there is a BK in the middle of T1/T2 more or less...but c’mon u r in Spain, everything there is better than a boring hamburger...even in an airport.


Well yeah, I agree but the complaint was that T2 lacks fast food chains and that's just patently false as there are two, not even mentioning the Eating Point which is a non-chain fast food. Personally I'm waiting in the lounge, so whatever. I will say restaurants in MAD could definitely be improved in T123. T4 and T4S have alright full-service options.

As far as bags, the biggest problem for luggage is from T4S and I don't see a good way to fix that. I have no intimate knowledge but I guess it's an airline operational issue in that they don't want to send several luggage carts all that way so they wait to unload the entire aircraft and then send it all the way over to T4 main.

Luggage time for the rest of arrivals seems to have drastically improved.
 
talonone
Posts: 63
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Re: MAD expansion approved

Mon Apr 02, 2018 12:37 pm

Jayafe wrote:
Actually I just remembered that there is bus connection T4s to T1 (airside) that doesn’t involve internal walks. I still can’t figure out how that can be confusing.

PS: yes, waiting time for luggage sux, last flight from LIM took 50 mins to have it delivered (but when arriving to LIM took 1h20min....) Staff comments: “you can’t imagine how many kms of internal belts they have installed”


The problem is, that all the luggage coming from South-America, Asia, Africa are passing through a scaner first time. You know, we are searching for think that are not quite llegal in Spain/EU. :lol:
The space and human stupidity are endless. Maybe the space is not... but the human stupidity for sure!

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