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LAXintl
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El Al Airlines posts deepening losses as market share shrinks

Thu Mar 22, 2018 12:39 am

El Al Israel Airlines reported its highest fourth-quarter loss on Wednesday, citing increased salary and jet fuel expenses and as its market share continued to erode in the face of intensifying competition.

The company said it lost USD $29.7 million in the final three months of the year, compared with a $2.4 million loss a year earlier. The company's net 2017 profit plummeted to $5.7 million in 2017 from $80.7 million in 2016.

“During 2017 the company faced increasing competition in the Israeli aviation market as a result of a significant increase in the number of seats of foreign airlines, especially low-cost carriers,” said Chief Executive Gonen Usishkin.

El Al's market share fell to 28.5% from 32.6% in 2016, while the number of passengers moving through Ben Gurion Airport jumped 16%.


El Al Airlines posts deepening losses as market share shrink
https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-el-al ... KKBN1GX19J

El Al profit slumps as low-cost competition bites
http://www.globes.co.il/en/article-el-a ... 1001228734

=

Looks like the much welcomed Europe open-skies agreement is increasingly hurting LY.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
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mercure1
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Re: El Al Airlines posts deepening losses as market share shrinks

Thu Mar 22, 2018 12:55 am

I am not sure El Al is an attractive option for those outside Israel, or non Jewish passengers.
Honestly in many decades besides one person I have never known anyone to fly El Al that was not Israeli or Jewish.

While Israel is certainly an interesting destination to visit and seeing increased arrivals, not sure traffic from Europe is inclined to fly LY and instead opt for likes of increasing number of LCC options and carriers like TK.

Of course, the legacy high-cost base at LY certainly does not help its case either in the face of increased competition.
mercure f-wtcc
 
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Re: El Al Airlines posts deepening losses as market share shrinks

Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:03 am

Wizz, Ryanair, Norwegian, easyJet, Pegasus, Transavia, Vueling, Blue Air, Wow, etc., have a 19% share of TLV's seats this month. Wizz is #1 with nearly 55,000 seats this month across 17 routes. easyJet is #2 with nearly 48,000 seats across 13 routes.
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
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LockheedBBD
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Re: El Al Airlines posts deepening losses as market share shrinks

Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:08 am

They should just offer an LCC option for those don't care about security/comfort as much.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: El Al Airlines posts deepening losses as market share shrinks

Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:38 am

Putting the 787's aside, of which they only have a couple so far, the EL AL long haul product is not competitive and extremely outdated (though some would say the 1990s era seating in all classes allows for more room than current cabins). Lots of LCC competition and plenty of other options to bypass EL AL.
 
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NeBaNi
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Re: El Al Airlines posts deepening losses as market share shrinks

Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:52 am

LockheedBBD wrote:
They should just offer an LCC option for those don't care about security/comfort as much.

Didn't El Al start an LCC named Up a while back?
 
MaverickM11
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Re: El Al Airlines posts deepening losses as market share shrinks

Thu Mar 22, 2018 2:08 am

NeBaNi wrote:
LockheedBBD wrote:
They should just offer an LCC option for those don't care about security/comfort as much.

Didn't El Al start an LCC named Up a while back?

Up is apparently shuttered this month, March 2018. They also were years ahead of the economic-minus trend, but they canned it.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
SkyVoice
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Re: El Al Airlines posts deepening losses as market share shrinks

Thu Mar 22, 2018 2:51 am

LockheedBBD wrote:
They should just offer an LCC option for those don't care about security/comfort as much.


An Israeli carrier give up comfort? Sure! But, give up security? NEVER ! ! !
"Your talents may take you where your character can not keep you." - Terry Nelson
 
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LockheedBBD
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Re: El Al Airlines posts deepening losses as market share shrinks

Thu Mar 22, 2018 3:41 am

SkyVoice wrote:
LockheedBBD wrote:
They should just offer an LCC option for those don't care about security/comfort as much.


An Israeli carrier give up comfort? Sure! But, give up security? NEVER ! ! !


They can still offer increased security on the more premium El Al, but not on the LCC. Why should El Al stay out of the LCC party when they can grab some of the LCC market share they're going to lose without it? Sure the LCC won't be as secure, but at least they won't go bankrupt.
 
jbs2886
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Re: El Al Airlines posts deepening losses as market share shrinks

Thu Mar 22, 2018 3:46 am

SkyVoice wrote:
LockheedBBD wrote:
They should just offer an LCC option for those don't care about security/comfort as much.


An Israeli carrier give up comfort? Sure! But, give up security? NEVER ! ! !


What you think an Israeli carrier shouldn’t care about security? I’m not getting into a Israel debate, but I think an Israeli airline has legitimate security concerns.
 
smi0006
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Re: El Al Airlines posts deepening losses as market share shrinks

Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:51 am

Forgive me, I vaguely recall seeing on a.net LY doesn’t fly on Sunday’s - is this still correct? That’s got to kill fleet utilisation, and crew costs at layover ports? Not to mention reduce schedule attractiveness?
 
questions
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Re: El Al Airlines posts deepening losses as market share shrinks

Thu Mar 22, 2018 5:42 am

mercure1 wrote:
Honestly in many decades besides one person I have never known anyone to fly El Al that was not Israeli or Jewish.


I don’t think the Gays fly El Al.
 
TzvikaPick
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Re: El Al Airlines posts deepening losses as market share shrinks

Thu Mar 22, 2018 6:46 am

smi0006 wrote:
Forgive me, I vaguely recall seeing on a.net LY doesn’t fly on Sunday’s - is this still correct? That’s got to kill fleet utilisation, and crew costs at layover ports? Not to mention reduce schedule attractiveness?


There's no problem on Sundays, The problem is on Saturday. But LY kinda solves this problem by leasing the fleet to it's SunDor subsidiary, so the same planes with the same pilots and the same crew fly all over Europe on Saturdays but with IZ or ISR callsign. This happens mostly on the high season, which starts right about these days.


LY has many many problems in the Israeli market and personally I believe they have to re think their business model in order to survive.
Low cost carriers like EasyJet, Ryanair, WIZZ and more are hammering the business in Europe. This market is very much a "price led market" and LY with it's aging 737 fleet, high labor costs and high security costs just can't compete in.

On longer routes to the east LY faces a problem over flying many countries, causing long flying time. This cause two things -
1. TLV can't become a big hub like IST or DXB, even though it has great geographic location.
2. For most destinations, connections in IST, SVO or even ADD doesn't extend the trip time much, causing many Israelis to choose foreign carriers that offer lower rates and better service on flight.
 
P1aneMad
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Re: El Al Airlines posts deepening losses as market share shrinks

Thu Mar 22, 2018 6:55 am

[email protected] wrote:
Wizz, Ryanair, Norwegian, easyJet, Pegasus, Transavia, Vueling, Blue Air, Wow, etc., have a 19% share of TLV's seats this month. Wizz is #1 with nearly 55,000 seats this month across 17 routes. easyJet is #2 with nearly 48,000 seats across 13 routes.

Very interesting data. Could you please share some link or source?
Thank you very much.
 
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Re: El Al Airlines posts deepening losses as market share shrinks

Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:26 am

P1aneMad wrote:
[email protected] wrote:
Wizz, Ryanair, Norwegian, easyJet, Pegasus, Transavia, Vueling, Blue Air, Wow, etc., have a 19% share of TLV's seats this month. Wizz is #1 with nearly 55,000 seats this month across 17 routes. easyJet is #2 with nearly 48,000 seats across 13 routes.

Very interesting data. Could you please share some link or source?
Thank you very much.


Subcription (part of my work) to Flightglobal Pro data.
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: El Al Airlines posts deepening losses as market share shrinks

Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:40 am

LockheedBBD wrote:
Sure the LCC won't be as secure, but at least they won't go bankrupt.

Until one predictably gets blown out of the sky.

That's spending a dollar to save a penny.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
345tas
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Re: El Al Airlines posts deepening losses as market share shrinks

Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:01 am

LockheedBBD wrote:
SkyVoice wrote:
LockheedBBD wrote:
They should just offer an LCC option for those don't care about security/comfort as much.


An Israeli carrier give up comfort? Sure! But, give up security? NEVER ! ! !


They can still offer increased security on the more premium El Al, but not on the LCC. Why should El Al stay out of the LCC party when they can grab some of the LCC market share they're going to lose without it? Sure the LCC won't be as secure, but at least they won't go bankrupt.


As several people have mentioned, they tried this and it failed. UP is being wound up as we speak. That's not to say the experiment was conducted correctly but they have tried. And I can confirm that at least when it comes to screening passengers, security was exactly the same as LY.

The problem with LY is the combination of high prices and bad service, which is not surprising because this applies to more or less everything in Israel.

However they are definitely working on the latter.
 
oldannyboy
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Re: El Al Airlines posts deepening losses as market share shrinks

Thu Mar 22, 2018 10:20 am

EL AL is squarely aimed at the Jewish and Israeli (not the same thing) communities and is first and foremost concerned about security protocols.

Service is pretty much average-to-bad, with tight seating and an outdated product, and sadly they are not a great ambassador to an otherwise very beautiful (but not necessarily welcoming) country.
They often are in fact "a first taste" of what's to come for tourist once in Israel, and that pretty much turns to be a bitter disappointment for many: despite the loveliness of the sights and the landscape, you just can't ignore the high prices and low standards of service, coupled with quite a bit of genuine unfriendliness on the part of some.
Above, coupled with the Shabbath ban on operations, can't surely do any good to their finance books, but I suppose the operation is not necessarily meant to be economically viable...
Israel is one of very few countries that REALLY DO NEED a flag carrier that takes good care of the interests of the nation and its people. That's it basically.
 
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globetrotter94
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Re: El Al Airlines posts deepening losses as market share shrinks

Thu Mar 22, 2018 10:24 am

Not surprising at all. LY is squeezed from the West by the likes of TK & co., and now, with Saudi granting overflight rights to AI, will it soon be squeezed from the East as well?
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oldannyboy
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Re: El Al Airlines posts deepening losses as market share shrinks

Thu Mar 22, 2018 10:24 am

questions wrote:
mercure1 wrote:
Honestly in many decades besides one person I have never known anyone to fly El Al that was not Israeli or Jewish.


I don’t think the Gays fly El Al.


Well I have, and they were not particularly unfriendly or anything. Actually, I would swear that one the male F/As was a sister... 8-)

Israel -at least Tel Aviv- is VERY gay friendly, and it's somewhat surprising to see the level and amount of in-your-face gay cruising that goes on in many public spaces... not to mention the beaches... Wow. Just wow.

On a side note: the men are HOTTTT. ;)
 
SR100
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Re: El Al Airlines posts deepening losses as market share shrinks

Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:26 am

I fly several times a year from Europe to Israel, mostly on Swiss (LX) because of their wide-body equipment used on the ZRH-TLV segment, but from time to time also with El Al. I mostly had very friendly FAs on LY, on average better than on Swiss - and I fly mostly business class - food is definitely better on LY and regarding their 737s, I wouldn't call their 8 737-900ER aging. OK, there are 14 737-800s, but I find them great with a real 2-2 business class rather than on Swiss, when they downgrade to narrow body airbuses and you have the terrible Euro-business class version for 4 hours...
Competition to Israel is not only increasing with the LCCs, others like Austrian Airlines are going from twice daily to 3 daily flights ex VIE, and in the past couple years many Asian carriers like Cathay Pacific, Hainan Airlines, etc started to fly to TLV - and btw they also need to fly around some Arabic countries as they do not allow fly-overs with the destination Israel, unfortunately.
Israel is a booming destination for the many reasons stated by others and LY with its 787s offers an awesome product that I recently had the pleasure to fly to EWR - far superior to UA and other competitors on the US market, but also on par with CX and there 359 to TLV.
Flown all types and variants of Airbus, Boeing, Lockheed, Bombardier, DC, Embraer, Fokker, ATR, plus BAe146-1/2/3, Britannia, Caravelle, Comet, Concord, CV440/990, M404, Herald, Avro, Trident-1/2/3, IL-18/62, SWM, Viscount, VC-10, Tu-104/134/154, YS-11
 
N983AN
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Re: El Al Airlines posts deepening losses as market share shrinks

Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:51 am

In my judgement as an American Jew who has flown LY extensively and works in the industry the leadership at LY has largely been complacent and often lack industry experience (outside of LY). Obviously given the size, scale and composition of their network LY will never be among the most profitable carriers globally but with an improved fleet better suited for their network, better YM capabilities and better customer experience they have some potential.
 
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Channex757
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Re: El Al Airlines posts deepening losses as market share shrinks

Thu Mar 22, 2018 12:06 pm

I might get attacked for antisemitism here but bear with me as I'm trying to explain a real but delicate problem.

Many travellers, particularly non-Jewish, avoid El Al because of the Orthodox/Hassidic problem. That community will use El Al by preference and let's just say they can be hard work. Many of them can display an awful sense of entitlement too, like everyone else has a duty to go with their wishes. That causes ructions at times and even delays at the gate. Some of the uproar at New York airports has been widely reported in the press.

That community also does not consider most of today's TV and movies to be "moral" and so a long NYC-TLV flight might have no entertainment for others available as the system might be off in one cabin.

LY's product will be addressed by the new 787s coming online. The first 789 is a smart looking beastie.
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: El Al Airlines posts deepening losses as market share shrinks

Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:00 pm

Their planes are so old and dirty looking.

I would only fly them if I had to. And in their biggest market, NYC, you dont have to.

That’s the problem.
 
Noise
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Re: El Al Airlines posts deepening losses as market share shrinks

Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:21 pm

Channex757 wrote:
I might get attacked for antisemitism here but bear with me as I'm trying to explain a real but delicate problem.

Many travellers, particularly non-Jewish, avoid El Al because of the Orthodox/Hassidic problem. That community will use El Al by preference and let's just say they can be hard work. Many of them can display an awful sense of entitlement too, like everyone else has a duty to go with their wishes. That causes ructions at times and even delays at the gate. Some of the uproar at New York airports has been widely reported in the press.


What do you mean, exactly? Can you give a couple of examples?
 
klakzky123
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Re: El Al Airlines posts deepening losses as market share shrinks

Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:26 pm

NeBaNi wrote:
LockheedBBD wrote:
They should just offer an LCC option for those don't care about security/comfort as much.

Didn't El Al start an LCC named Up a while back?


They did. It didn't go very well. Israel has open skies with the EU and there is no way El Al can spin up an LCC to compete with the European LCCs.
 
awthompson
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Re: El Al Airlines posts deepening losses as market share shrinks

Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:29 pm

To answer a few posts further up without quoting them all, I had to go to Tel Aviv for a 3 day conference with my work (from UK). Not being either Israeli or Jewish (AFAIK !!!), but welcoming of unusual or 'out of the norm' travel experiences, it was a no-brainer for me to choose El AL LHR-TEL-LHR getting a B744 out (4X-ELE) and a B772 back (4X-ECC). Why sit on an Easyjet or similar for a fairly long flight when you can enjoy full service on board a legacy carrier and get widebody ambiance. I thoroughly enjoyed the once in a lifetime experience and the price was not that bad either. The security was also an experience with various one to one interviews but again that was something to remember the trip by and made me feel very safe.
 
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OA260
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Re: El Al Airlines posts deepening losses as market share shrinks

Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:41 pm

Noise wrote:
Channex757 wrote:
I might get attacked for antisemitism here but bear with me as I'm trying to explain a real but delicate problem.

Many travellers, particularly non-Jewish, avoid El Al because of the Orthodox/Hassidic problem. That community will use El Al by preference and let's just say they can be hard work. Many of them can display an awful sense of entitlement too, like everyone else has a duty to go with their wishes. That causes ructions at times and even delays at the gate. Some of the uproar at New York airports has been widely reported in the press.


What do you mean, exactly? Can you give a couple of examples?


I think he is referring to these :

Petition calls on El Al to protect female passengers from Haredi harassment
Move comes after flight was delayed by ultra-Orthodox men who refused to sit next to women

www.timesofisrael.com/petition-calls-on ... arassment/



Israeli ultra-Orthodox Passenger Causes Disturbance on El Al Flight Over 'Immodest' Movie
The 36-year-old ultra-Orthodox Beit Shemesh resident on the flight from Warsaw to Tel Aviv objects to the in-flight film and breaks two of the airplane's screens.

www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-pa ... -1.5409123


Ultra-Orthodox man holds up plane over TV screens
Flight delayed by more than an hour, until passenger agrees to fly with blindfolds for him and his children
The flight from Kiev to Israel on the El Al-owned low-cost airline Up was unable to take off while the man insisted that the overhead screens be disabled.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/ultra-ort ... v-screens/
 
P1aneMad
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Re: El Al Airlines posts deepening losses as market share shrinks

Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:48 pm

[email protected] wrote:
P1aneMad wrote:
[email protected] wrote:
Wizz, Ryanair, Norwegian, easyJet, Pegasus, Transavia, Vueling, Blue Air, Wow, etc., have a 19% share of TLV's seats this month. Wizz is #1 with nearly 55,000 seats this month across 17 routes. easyJet is #2 with nearly 48,000 seats across 13 routes.

Very interesting data. Could you please share some link or source?
Thank you very much.


Subcription (part of my work) to Flightglobal Pro data.

Thanks for the response mate. I found this though so I'm good:
http://brin.iaa.gov.il/monthlyreport/ViewReportEng.aspx
 
Noise
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Re: El Al Airlines posts deepening losses as market share shrinks

Thu Mar 22, 2018 2:51 pm

OA260 wrote:
Noise wrote:
Channex757 wrote:
I might get attacked for antisemitism here but bear with me as I'm trying to explain a real but delicate problem.

Many travellers, particularly non-Jewish, avoid El Al because of the Orthodox/Hassidic problem. That community will use El Al by preference and let's just say they can be hard work. Many of them can display an awful sense of entitlement too, like everyone else has a duty to go with their wishes. That causes ructions at times and even delays at the gate. Some of the uproar at New York airports has been widely reported in the press.


What do you mean, exactly? Can you give a couple of examples?


I think he is referring to these :

Petition calls on El Al to protect female passengers from Haredi harassment
Move comes after flight was delayed by ultra-Orthodox men who refused to sit next to women

http://www.timesofisrael.com/petition-c ... arassment/



Israeli ultra-Orthodox Passenger Causes Disturbance on El Al Flight Over 'Immodest' Movie
The 36-year-old ultra-Orthodox Beit Shemesh resident on the flight from Warsaw to Tel Aviv objects to the in-flight film and breaks two of the airplane's screens.

http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.pre ... -1.5409123


Ultra-Orthodox man holds up plane over TV screens
Flight delayed by more than an hour, until passenger agrees to fly with blindfolds for him and his children
The flight from Kiev to Israel on the El Al-owned low-cost airline Up was unable to take off while the man insisted that the overhead screens be disabled.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/ultra-ort ... v-screens/


Wow. :shock:
 
SCQ83
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Re: El Al Airlines posts deepening losses as market share shrinks

Thu Mar 22, 2018 3:04 pm

[email protected] wrote:
Wizz, Ryanair, Norwegian, easyJet, Pegasus, Transavia, Vueling, Blue Air, Wow, etc., have a 19% share of TLV's seats this month. Wizz is #1 with nearly 55,000 seats this month across 17 routes. easyJet is #2 with nearly 48,000 seats across 13 routes.


Indeed that must be the reason. European low-cost carriers have been adding service to Israel left and right. Only a couple of years ago there was basically easyJet from just a few main airports. You would be lucky to get a Europe - TLV return flight for less than 300 EUR. Now there are low-cost options from a trillion secondary airports with plenty of options sometimes for as little as 100 EUR return.
 
33lspotter
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Re: El Al Airlines posts deepening losses as market share shrinks

Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:59 pm

Noise wrote:
Wow. :shock:


I myself am not Jewish, but I did attend Brandeis, so have some Judaism-related knowledge. I believe some of these passengers -- particularly the men who refuse to sit next to women -- are "shomer negiah," a concept of Jewish law which means that they do not touch members of the opposite sex (to whom they aren't related). For the passengers who are shomer but seated next to women, it really becomes a question of "respect others' religious beliefs" vs. "you are in a public place and may have to make accommodations to fit in." My inclination would be towards the latter, but I am an outsider, so it's easy for me to say, but FWIW I have close Orthodox friends who are also inclined to think that there will be situations where you may have to make sacrifices such as risking accidental contact with the opposite-sex passenger next to you.
 
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Channex757
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Re: El Al Airlines posts deepening losses as market share shrinks

Thu Mar 22, 2018 5:50 pm

Noise wrote:
OA260 wrote:
Noise wrote:

What do you mean, exactly? Can you give a couple of examples?


I think he is referring to these :

Petition calls on El Al to protect female passengers from Haredi harassment
Move comes after flight was delayed by ultra-Orthodox men who refused to sit next to women

http://www.timesofisrael.com/petition-c ... arassment/



Israeli ultra-Orthodox Passenger Causes Disturbance on El Al Flight Over 'Immodest' Movie
The 36-year-old ultra-Orthodox Beit Shemesh resident on the flight from Warsaw to Tel Aviv objects to the in-flight film and breaks two of the airplane's screens.

http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.pre ... -1.5409123


Ultra-Orthodox man holds up plane over TV screens
Flight delayed by more than an hour, until passenger agrees to fly with blindfolds for him and his children
The flight from Kiev to Israel on the El Al-owned low-cost airline Up was unable to take off while the man insisted that the overhead screens be disabled.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/ultra-ort ... v-screens/


Wow. :shock:

They are tough customers to try and keep happy. The most loony El Al story I ever heard (and it's a true one) involved rabbis of a certain ultra orthodox sect. They were utterly forbidden from entering a certain graveyard in Tel Aviv, and guess where it was? Right under the departure routing out of Tel Aviv airport that LY would tend to use the most. So to try and solve this problem (aerobatics in a heavily loaded 744 not being advisable) the rabbis would need to be wrapped up in body bags until they were clear of the cemetery.

https://www.haaretz.com/1.5418681

The lowcosts just wouldn't tolerate anything like that. El Al, however, would be expected to at least try to meet their demands. This means disruption and disruption means money lost....
 
phllax
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Re: El Al Airlines posts deepening losses as market share shrinks

Thu Mar 22, 2018 6:02 pm

Channex757 wrote:
I might get attacked for antisemitism here but bear with me as I'm trying to explain a real but delicate problem.

Many travellers, particularly non-Jewish, avoid El Al because of the Orthodox/Hassidic problem. That community will use El Al by preference and let's just say they can be hard work. Many of them can display an awful sense of entitlement too, like everyone else has a duty to go with their wishes. That causes ructions at times and even delays at the gate. Some of the uproar at New York airports has been widely reported in the press.

That community also does not consider most of today's TV and movies to be "moral" and so a long NYC-TLV flight might have no entertainment for others available as the system might be off in one cabin.


That's not anti-Semitic at all. Unfortunately it's the truth, especially to JFK. It can be so bad that many non-ultra orthodox prefer to fly the DL or UA non-stops to NYC just so they don't have to put up with their BS.
 
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Yakamoz
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Re: El Al Airlines posts deepening losses as market share shrinks

Thu Mar 22, 2018 6:22 pm

Which foreign airlines are in Top5 in Israel which has an impact on LY?
 
LMFNINJA
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Re: El Al Airlines posts deepening losses as market share shrinks

Thu Mar 22, 2018 6:58 pm

345tas wrote:
LockheedBBD wrote:
SkyVoice wrote:

An Israeli carrier give up comfort? Sure! But, give up security? NEVER ! ! !


They can still offer increased security on the more premium El Al, but not on the LCC. Why should El Al stay out of the LCC party when they can grab some of the LCC market share they're going to lose without it? Sure the LCC won't be as secure, but at least they won't go bankrupt.


As several people have mentioned, they tried this and it failed. UP is being wound up as we speak. That's not to say the experiment was conducted correctly but they have tried. And I can confirm that at least when it comes to screening passengers, security was exactly the same as LY.

The problem with LY is the combination of high prices and bad service, which is not surprising because this applies to more or less everything in Israel.

However they are definitely working on the latter.


You state "The problem with LY is the combination of high prices and bad service which is not surprising because this applies to more or less everything in Israel."

What nonsense! As a frequent visitor to Israel I can categorically state that the prices are reasonable and the service is as good as any restaurant or hotel in Toronto or the rest of North America.

And the record number of tourists visiting Israel in the last year is proof that Israel is doing something correctly.
 
[email protected]
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Re: El Al Airlines posts deepening losses as market share shrinks

Thu Mar 22, 2018 6:58 pm

Yakamoz wrote:
Which foreign airlines are in Top5 in Israel which has an impact on LY?


Hard to say for certain. But on a related note, the top-5 foreign airlines at TLV - not all routes compete directly or indirectly with LY - are:

Turkish, 59,000 seats this month, with lots of connecting traffic through IST (about 8 daily to IST and 1 daily to SAW)
Wizz, 55,000 seats
easyJet, 48,000
Aeroflot, 43,000, with connecting traffic through SVO
Lufthansa, 32,000, with lots of connecting traffic through FRA/MUC
Last edited by [email protected] on Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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LMFNINJA
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Re: El Al Airlines posts deepening losses as market share shrinks

Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:06 pm

mercure1 wrote:
I am not sure El Al is an attractive option for those outside Israel, or non Jewish passengers.
Honestly in many decades besides one person I have never known anyone to fly El Al that was not Israeli or Jewish.

While Israel is certainly an interesting destination to visit and seeing increased arrivals, not sure traffic from Europe is inclined to fly LY and instead opt for likes of increasing number of LCC options and carriers like TK.

Of course, the legacy high-cost base at LY certainly does not help its case either in the face of increased competition.



You state "I am not sure El Al is an attractive option for those outside Israel, or non Jewish passengers."

I am sure there are many Evangelicals, Hindus, Americans and other non-Jewish supporters of the state of Israel who would vehemently disagree with your assertion.
 
LMFNINJA
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Re: El Al Airlines posts deepening losses as market share shrinks

Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:13 pm

oldannyboy wrote:
EL AL is squarely aimed at the Jewish and Israeli (not the same thing) communities and is first and foremost concerned about security protocols.

Service is pretty much average-to-bad, with tight seating and an outdated product, and sadly they are not a great ambassador to an otherwise very beautiful (but not necessarily welcoming) country.
They often are in fact "a first taste" of what's to come for tourist once in Israel, and that pretty much turns to be a bitter disappointment for many: despite the loveliness of the sights and the landscape, you just can't ignore the high prices and low standards of service, coupled with quite a bit of genuine unfriendliness on the part of some.
Above, coupled with the Shabbath ban on operations, can't surely do any good to their finance books, but I suppose the operation is not necessarily meant to be economically viable...
Israel is one of very few countries that REALLY DO NEED a flag carrier that takes good care of the interests of the nation and its people. That's it basically.


If Israel is purportedly unfriendly and has "high prices and low standards of service" and a trip there is a "bitter disappointment"for many then please explain the record numbers of tourists visiting the country.

http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/More-t ... ore-522665

As my Cockney mother used to say "You don't know your ass from your elbow!"
 
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seahawk
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Re: El Al Airlines posts deepening losses as market share shrinks

Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:24 pm

Not flying on Saturdays is a bit of a negative as Saturday is a very popular travel day for many tourists.

The orthodox problem adds to it. As a male it is okay, but as a female I can understand if they are avoided. It is no fun sitting next to a person who treats you as some highly toxic object that would kill him if you touch him.
 
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Yakamoz
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Re: El Al Airlines posts deepening losses as market share shrinks

Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:58 pm

[email protected] wrote:
Yakamoz wrote:
Which foreign airlines are in Top5 in Israel which has an impact on LY?


Hard to say for certain. But on a related note, the top-5 foreign airlines at TLV - not all routes compete directly or indirectly with LY - are:

Turkish, 59,000 seats this month, with lots of connecting traffic through IST (about 8 daily to IST and 1 daily to SAW)
Wizz, 55,000 seats
easyJet, 48,000
Aeroflot, 43,000, with connecting traffic through SVO
Lufthansa, 32,000, with lots of connecting traffic through FRA/MUC


Thank you!
The impact of LCC is very big. Didn't know Wizz is very strong there.
 
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pitbosflyer
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Re: El Al Airlines posts deepening losses as market share shrinks

Thu Mar 22, 2018 8:17 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
Putting the 787's aside, of which they only have a couple so far, the EL AL long haul product is not competitive and extremely outdated (though some would say the 1990s era seating in all classes allows for more room than current cabins). Lots of LCC competition and plenty of other options to bypass EL AL.


Until they can roll out more 787s around their route network....flying on El Al now is like traveling back in time. Based on passenger experience alone I would pick other options when traveling to Israel.
 
oldannyboy
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Re: El Al Airlines posts deepening losses as market share shrinks

Fri Mar 23, 2018 2:37 pm

LMFNINJA wrote:
oldannyboy wrote:
EL AL is squarely aimed at the Jewish and Israeli (not the same thing) communities and is first and foremost concerned about security protocols.

Service is pretty much average-to-bad, with tight seating and an outdated product, and sadly they are not a great ambassador to an otherwise very beautiful (but not necessarily welcoming) country.
They often are in fact "a first taste" of what's to come for tourist once in Israel, and that pretty much turns to be a bitter disappointment for many: despite the loveliness of the sights and the landscape, you just can't ignore the high prices and low standards of service, coupled with quite a bit of genuine unfriendliness on the part of some.
Above, coupled with the Shabbath ban on operations, can't surely do any good to their finance books, but I suppose the operation is not necessarily meant to be economically viable...
Israel is one of very few countries that REALLY DO NEED a flag carrier that takes good care of the interests of the nation and its people. That's it basically.


If Israel is purportedly unfriendly and has "high prices and low standards of service" and a trip there is a "bitter disappointment"for many then please explain the record numbers of tourists visiting the country.

http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/More-t ... ore-522665

As my Cockney mother used to say "You don't know your ass from your elbow!"


Thanks mate, but I do know the country pretty well, hence my comments.
Israel is a magnificent country, but indeed prices are high, service standards pretty low and quite a big chunk of the populace relatively unfriendly. Just my two cents after several visits. I stand to what I am saying.
Would I go back? Sure I would, as I say, it's a lovely country all in all, with lots to see, but quite pricey for what you get and lots of people do indeed have a very 'brusque' attitude to foreigners. No need to get upset.
 
345tas
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Re: El Al Airlines posts deepening losses as market share shrinks

Fri Mar 23, 2018 3:07 pm

LMFNINJA wrote:
You state "The problem with LY is the combination of high prices and bad service which is not surprising because this applies to more or less everything in Israel."

What nonsense! As a frequent visitor to Israel I can categorically state that the prices are reasonable and the service is as good as any restaurant or hotel in Toronto or the rest of North America.

And the record number of tourists visiting Israel in the last year is proof that Israel is doing something correctly.


Well I live in Israel so I can categorically state that Israel is expensive and service is frequently bad (but definitely improving, including on LY with the 789s). For example, Tel Aviv was recently judged the 9th most expensive city in the world by the EIU, but outside of high-tech wages are a fraction of what they are in the other cities in the top ten (Copenhagen, Sydney, Zurich etc).

Yes visitors are coming in droves but they notice the prices and it would certainly factor in to their decision making on whether to return, particularly as accomodation costs are sky-high. For locals it is often cheaper to take a package holiday to Cyprus or Greece than to drive to Eilat and stay a couple of nights in a hotel.
 
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readytotaxi
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Re: El Al Airlines posts deepening losses as market share shrinks

Fri Mar 23, 2018 4:03 pm

So could El Al become the next Alitalia.
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DCA-ROCguy
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Re: El Al Airlines posts deepening losses as market share shrinks

Fri Mar 23, 2018 4:13 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
LockheedBBD wrote:
Sure the LCC won't be as secure, but at least they won't go bankrupt.

Until one predictably gets blown out of the sky.
That's spending a dollar to save a penny.


Security is a matter of the airport, not the airline, correct? What difference would it make whether a carrier at TLV was a legacy or LCC?

Methinks the post about security was a bit of trolling to drum up LCC-hatred.

Jim
Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
 
Sancho99504
Posts: 636
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2005 2:44 pm

Re: El Al Airlines posts deepening losses as market share shrinks

Fri Mar 23, 2018 4:33 pm

DCA-ROCguy wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
LockheedBBD wrote:
Sure the LCC won't be as secure, but at least they won't go bankrupt.

Until one predictably gets blown out of the sky.
That's spending a dollar to save a penny.


Security is a matter of the airport, not the airline, correct? What difference would it make whether a carrier at TLV was a legacy or LCC?

Methinks the post about security was a bit of trolling to drum up LCC-hatred.

Jim

There's airport security then there is El Al security. I used to ground handle LY at ORD. During the summer, they operated a B744 TLV-JFK-ORD-JFK-TLV a couple times a week. Before aircraft arrival, our equipment and personnel had to be screened by LY people. We had to be rescreened prior to loading the aircraft, which was on the ground for about 2 hours.
During the winter, they operated 767 TLV-YYZ-ORD-YYZ-TLV 3 times a week in which the aircraft stayed in ORD all day. Same procedure as before, but we had to put zip ties on all door handles and latches, which they would check prior to us loading up. BTW, they screened us with the hand want metal detectors. Security is very much an LY thing.
kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out-USMC
 
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yochai
Posts: 252
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2009 6:19 pm

Re: El Al Airlines posts deepening losses as market share shrinks

Fri Mar 23, 2018 6:05 pm

Sancho99504 wrote:
DCA-ROCguy wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
Until one predictably gets blown out of the sky.
That's spending a dollar to save a penny.


Security is a matter of the airport, not the airline, correct? What difference would it make whether a carrier at TLV was a legacy or LCC?

Methinks the post about security was a bit of trolling to drum up LCC-hatred.

Jim

There's airport security then there is El Al security. I used to ground handle LY at ORD. During the summer, they operated a B744 TLV-JFK-ORD-JFK-TLV a couple times a week. Before aircraft arrival, our equipment and personnel had to be screened by LY people. We had to be rescreened prior to loading the aircraft, which was on the ground for about 2 hours.
During the winter, they operated 767 TLV-YYZ-ORD-YYZ-TLV 3 times a week in which the aircraft stayed in ORD all day. Same procedure as before, but we had to put zip ties on all door handles and latches, which they would check prior to us loading up. BTW, they screened us with the hand want metal detectors. Security is very much an LY thing.


These security measures are dictated by the Israeli government and not by El Al, every Israeli airline has to comply with them.

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