Cointrin330
Topic Author
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Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 12:23 pm

Regarding AA's JFK-Zurich Route Ending (AA 64/AA65)

Thu Mar 22, 2018 12:56 am

On March 24th (Saturday), American Airlines will suspend its daily New York/JFK to Zurich, Switzerland route after 31 years of service. The service was launched in 1987, when American Airlines began to expand into Europe. The JFK to Zurich flight was launched alongside a nonstop flight between JFK and Paris (Orly), and a short-lived nonstop flight from JFK to Lyon, France. All three of those flights were launched with Boeing 767-200ER aircraft. Eventually, the JFK-ORY route was swapped to JFK-CDG and even before the airport change on the Paris end, was upgraded to B767-300ER. The Zurich service was also changed to a 767-300ER when American began to draw down TATL ops on the 767-200ER. The Zurich route, when launched, and through the late 1990s, operated alongside a daily ORD-ZRH route, operating as AA 38 (and AA 37 on the ZRH-ORD sector).

From March 25th, the ZRH route on AA will operate from PHL. USAirways, and then American Airlines post-merger, operated ZRH service so this is technically not a new route, but it will be flown with the 767-300ER instead of the A330-200 that operated it briefly, post merger. (US Airways had flown it with the 767-200ER until that type was retired).

Really sad to see AA continue to draw down JFK operations and shift capacity to PHL, though it makes sense, given the large size of the PHL hub, less competition there for AA, and the fact that PHL is American's primary gateway to Europe. American's focus in the New York market had been to generally fly to where its corporate customers wanted to go. Zurich is a main business destination from the NY area given the number of Swiss multinationals in the region and the contracts that can come with it. Delta only added JFK to Zurich a few years ago. Prior to that, it was 2 x daily on LX (+1 from EWR) and 1 x daily on UA, from EWR.

Anyway, the significance of a 31 year old route is there so figured it was worth mentioning.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: Regarding AA's JFK-Zurich Route Ending (AA 64/AA65)

Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:07 am

American Airlines has served the following markets in Europe nonstop from JFK at one time or another, since the original 1987 opening of JFK as a TATL gateway:

ZRH (ending 3/24)
BRU (dropped in 2009?)
ORY (then CDG) (CDG was double daily, AA 44 and AA 121, now only once daily)
MXP (still operating, the next route to move to PHL?)
MAD (operates daily)
MAN (started in 1992, then dropped, restarted in the late 2000s and then dropped in 2016)
BHX (dropped in January 2017)
BCN (briefly operated double daily, now once per day)
LHR (up to 6 times daily, including 2 x daylight flights, now just 3 daily)
FCO (seasonal, added a few years ago on the 763, then up gauged to the 772)
BUD (operated in 2011 only and axed after Malev closed down)
EDI (moved from PHL to JFK and operates seasonally)
DUB (seasonal route)
LYS (short lived, started in 1987 and dropped six months later)
LGW (operated briefly, when AA acquired TWA's LHR slots, and had to operate one flight to LGW for frequency until another LHR was obtained)
 
tommyy
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Re: Regarding AA's JFK-Zurich Route Ending (AA 64/AA65)

Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:10 am

I fly that route a few times a year, I used to fly exclusive AA until a few years ago, their hard product was as old as the route, it was horrendous, and they were no match for LX especially when they introduced the A330’s
 
Cointrin330
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Re: Regarding AA's JFK-Zurich Route Ending (AA 64/AA65)

Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:11 am

A few more:

FRA (announced, but never started)
NCL (same, announced, but never started)
STN (operated to compete with Eos, MaxJet and closed down when Eos and MaxJet went bust)
 
davescj
Posts: 1274
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Re: Regarding AA's JFK-Zurich Route Ending (AA 64/AA65)

Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:13 am

I am surprised that this route is getting cut. I would think the financial sector alone would be sufficient to maintain the route. Obviously not is all I can say. But, I do wonder about the wilder drawing down at JFK. UA left JFK entirely for Newark, which does make sense in one way as its a hub. But I wonder if DL won't pick up some customers who don't want to go down to PHL first.
Can I have a mojito on this flight?
 
Cointrin330
Topic Author
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Re: Regarding AA's JFK-Zurich Route Ending (AA 64/AA65)

Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:15 am

tommyy wrote:
I fly that route a few times a year, I used to fly exclusive AA until a few years ago, their hard product was as old as the route, it was horrendous, and they were no match for LX especially when they introduced the A330’s


Agreed, they were no match for LX in the premium cabin and even AA's revamped Business Class on the refurbished 763s aren't quite on par with Delta ONE. The Economy class on the 763 fleet on AA is vintage 1980s.
 
commavia
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Re: Regarding AA's JFK-Zurich Route Ending (AA 64/AA65)

Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:16 am

Cointrin330 wrote:
FRA (announced, but never started)


Incorrect. AA flew JFK-FRA at least once, and I believe actually two separate times - most recently in the late 1990s into 2000.
 
clrd4t8koff
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Re: Regarding AA's JFK-Zurich Route Ending (AA 64/AA65)

Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:18 am

Cointrin330 wrote:
A few more:

FRA (announced, but never started)
NCL (same, announced, but never started)
STN (operated to compete with Eos, MaxJet and closed down when Eos and MaxJet went bust)


AA did fly JFK-FRA

viewtopic.php?t=56423
 
Cointrin330
Topic Author
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Re: Regarding AA's JFK-Zurich Route Ending (AA 64/AA65)

Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:27 am

clrd4t8koff wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
A few more:

FRA (announced, but never started)
NCL (same, announced, but never started)
STN (operated to compete with Eos, MaxJet and closed down when Eos and MaxJet went bust)


AA did fly JFK-FRA

viewtopic.php?t=56423


Absolutely not. TWA flew JFK to FRA (TW 740/741) and AA may have acquired the route authority when it bought TWA, but it never flew to FRA from JFK on its own metal. It did operate MIA-FRA for a brief time (and also flew ORD-FRA). DFW to FRA has always been the continuous route in legacy AA, until the merger with US, which added PHL and CLT to FRA. As for the TWA route itself, from JFK, it ended long before AA acquired TWA.
 
commavia
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Re: Regarding AA's JFK-Zurich Route Ending (AA 64/AA65)

Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:32 am

Cointrin330 wrote:
Absolutely not. TWA flew JFK to FRA (TW 740/741) and AA may have acquired the route authority when it bought TWA, but it never flew to FRA from JFK on its own metal. It did operate MIA-FRA for a brief time (and also flew ORD-FRA).


I'm sorry, but respectfully, that is incorrect. AA absolutely did fly JFK-FRA on its own metal - twice - and both times prior to the TWA acquisition.

The first time, the route began in 1987 and I believe ended sometime in the early 1990s. The second time, the route began (if I remember correctly) in 1998 and ended in November 2000.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: Regarding AA's JFK-Zurich Route Ending (AA 64/AA65)

Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:39 am

commavia wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
Absolutely not. TWA flew JFK to FRA (TW 740/741) and AA may have acquired the route authority when it bought TWA, but it never flew to FRA from JFK on its own metal. It did operate MIA-FRA for a brief time (and also flew ORD-FRA).


I'm sorry, but respectfully, that is incorrect. AA absolutely did fly JFK-FRA on its own metal - twice - and both times prior to the TWA acquisition.

The first time, the route began in 1987 and I believe ended sometime in the early 1990s. The second time, the route began (if I remember correctly) in 1998 and ended in November 2000.


You may be right. If they did operate, it was very short lived.
 
ltbewr
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Re: Regarding AA's JFK-Zurich Route Ending (AA 64/AA65)

Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:59 am

I flew on AA JFK-FRA-JFK in 1987 (think a 767 ?) and JFK-BRU-JFK in 1990 (DC-10).
I would guess that AA is trying to move some TATL's to PHL as less traffic there so fewer delays, good connections from ex-US, maybe better yields ?
 
WingsOfLove
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Re: Regarding AA's JFK-Zurich Route Ending (AA 64/AA65)

Thu Mar 22, 2018 2:03 am

AA started its first 2 JFK TATL flights in May 1987. FRA and ORY with DC-10. FRA canceled in 1990.
 
iyerhari
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Re: Regarding AA's JFK-Zurich Route Ending (AA 64/AA65)

Thu Mar 22, 2018 2:10 am

The numbers speak for itself. Please see below airline percentages from 2006 and see how AA has gradually ceded ground first to B6 and then to DL.

Year DL B6 AA Total pax
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
2017 26.81% 23.01% 11.69% 59,345,421
2016 26.93% 23.05% 12.01% 58,956,288
2015 25.71% 23.01% 13.25% 56,827,154 AA+US
2014 24.37% 22.80% 14.33% 53,254,362 AA+US
2013 23.09% 23.21% 16.72% 50,423,765 AA+US
2012 23.34% 24.00% 17.30% 49,292,733 AA+US
2011 23.96% 23.97% 18.32% 47,683,529 AA+US
2010 24.96% 24.88% 17.00% 46,514,154 AA+US
2009 18.07% 26.67% 16.46% 45,915,069 (DL +NW) and AA, AAE and US
2008 17.44% 25.50% 17.76% 47,807,475 (DL +NW) and AA, AAE and US
2007 16.47% 28.28% 18.21% 47,716,941 (DL +NW) and AA, AAE and America West
2006 14.20% 27.32% 21.26% 42,629,470 (DL +NW) and AA, AAE and America West

Very interesting insights from these numbers. In the year 2002, AA was the topmost carrier at JFK and if you also include America West, the numbers are way too high.

2007 was the last year when AA was ranked 2 below DL. DL gradually built up the numbers after NW merger and after 2010, they have been running neck to neck with B6 and AA is much behind them. I must say a lot of A netters do not give enough kudos to B6 - they have done a fantastic job and given big sharks like DL and AA a run for their money. I am sure if you draw a graph of progress at BOS, the story would read the same except B6 is 0.5 times larger than AA and more than double of DL.

I believe AA management has realized they are safer at PHL to make money than running an ultra-competitive routes with B6 and DL as formidable competitors.
 
winginit
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Re: Regarding AA's JFK-Zurich Route Ending (AA 64/AA65)

Thu Mar 22, 2018 2:18 am

tommyy wrote:
I fly that route a few times a year, I used to fly exclusive AA until a few years ago, their hard product was as old as the route, it was horrendous, and they were no match for LX especially when they introduced the A330’s


Bingo, and that subpar product equated to subpar revenues and load factors as T100 shows us:

Average one-way fare by nonstop carrier: JFKZRH (non-directional average), 3Q2017 T100

AA: $343
DL: $409
LX: $515

Average load factor by nonstop carrier: JFKZRH (non-directional average), 3Q2017 T100

AA: 78%
DL: 83%
LX: 91%

If you can't compete, or aren't willing to invest in the product necessary to compete - you pack it up and go home.
 
asuflyer
Posts: 432
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Re: Regarding AA's JFK-Zurich Route Ending (AA 64/AA65)

Thu Mar 22, 2018 2:25 am

They served ARN, and SNN as well. AA has mismanaged their whole JFK operations for years. B6 came in and killed them off their Caribbean routes, and AA just gave up saying they could never meet B6's costs. Now DL has really taken outdone them on the Europe side and made T4 arguably nicer than AA's half-built T8.

For ZRH they lost the UBS and Credit Suisse contracts to DL and LX and often their fares on JFK-ZRH were under $400 roundtrip. They also decided to give the 763's probably the cheapest renovation possible, leaving them with the weakest product on the route. In addition, the 767's are notoriously unreliable going tech all the time. What sustains AA in NYC are it's core JFK-LAX/SFO/LHR/GRU routes. Now they just serve what they define as "key markets"out of JFK.
 
caverunner17
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Re: Regarding AA's JFK-Zurich Route Ending (AA 64/AA65)

Thu Mar 22, 2018 3:40 am

Surprising that they can't sustain much of a NYC TATL market and would rather push people to a OW hub instead since UA is able to have TATL traffic from both IAD and EWR without issue.

JFK: BCN, LHR, MAD, CDG
Seasonal: DUB, EDI, FCO

PHL: AMS, DUB, LHR, MAN, MAD, MUC, CDG, FCO, ZRH
Seasonal: ATH, BCN, FRA, GLA, LIS, PRG, SNN, VCE

vs UA

EWR: AMS, BCN, BRU, TXL, DUB, EDI, FRA, GVA, LIS, LHR, MAD, MAN, MXP, MUC, CDG, ZRH
Seasonal: KEF, SNN, ARN, VCE

IAD: AMS, BRU, FRA, GVA, LHR, MUC, CDG, ZRH
Seasonal: BCN, DUB, EDI, LIS, MAD, FCO

So UA's smaller east coast hub has 2x the number of destinations both seasonal and year-round that AA does at JFK and their ATL gateway has almost 2x as well year-round while AA beats them on seasonals.

Another data point is the number of *non partner* airlines they fly to.

JFK 1 + 2 seasonal
PHL 6 + 7 Seasonal
IAD 3 + 6 Seasonal
EWR 10 + 2 seasonal
 
dampfnudel
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Re: Regarding AA's JFK-Zurich Route Ending (AA 64/AA65)

Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:20 am

Cointrin330 wrote:
clrd4t8koff wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
A few more:

FRA (announced, but never started)
NCL (same, announced, but never started)
STN (operated to compete with Eos, MaxJet and closed down when Eos and MaxJet went bust)


AA did fly JFK-FRA

viewtopic.php?t=56423


Absolutely not. TWA flew JFK to FRA (TW 740/741) and AA may have acquired the route authority when it bought TWA, but it never flew to FRA from JFK on its own metal. It did operate MIA-FRA for a brief time (and also flew ORD-FRA). DFW to FRA has always been the continuous route in legacy AA, until the merger with US, which added PHL and CLT to FRA. As for the TWA route itself, from JFK, it ended long before AA acquired TWA.


I can personally confirm AA used its own metal on JFK-FRA. I flew JFK-FRA on AA metal (762) in December 1989 and back to JFK a couple of weeks later in January 1990. I was a teenager at the time and visited my oma (grandma) for Christmas. My mom and I almost missed our flight because our cab broke down and we were the last to board. The gate agent had to call to keep them from closing the aircraft door.
A313 332 343 B703 712 722 732 73G 738 739 741 742 744 752 762 76E 764 772 AT5 CR9 D10 DHH DHT F27 GRM L10 M83 TU5

AA AI CO CL DE DL EA HA KL LH N7 PA PQ SK RO TW UA YR
 
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IrishAyes
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Re: Regarding AA's JFK-Zurich Route Ending (AA 64/AA65)

Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:28 am

So it actually appears that ORD-ZRH was launched in 1987, and JFK-ZRH came the following year in 1988, per this interesting history of American Airlines in Zurich that came out in Routesonline in 2012 when it was celebrating its 25th anniversary in Switz. Furthermore, the JFK-ZRH flight was suspended from Jan 1997 through Jan 2003.

US Airways launched PHL-ZRH on June 8, 2007. American flew PHL-ZRH until September 30, 2016.

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... itzerland/

Also, JFK-BRU was dropped in November 2012, not 2009.
 
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millionsofmiles
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Re: Regarding AA's JFK-Zurich Route Ending (AA 64/AA65)

Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:46 am

Cointrin330 wrote:
commavia wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
Absolutely not. TWA flew JFK to FRA (TW 740/741) and AA may have acquired the route authority when it bought TWA, but it never flew to FRA from JFK on its own metal. It did operate MIA-FRA for a brief time (and also flew ORD-FRA).


I'm sorry, but respectfully, that is incorrect. AA absolutely did fly JFK-FRA on its own metal - twice - and both times prior to the TWA acquisition.

The first time, the route began in 1987 and I believe ended sometime in the early 1990s. The second time, the route began (if I remember correctly) in 1998 and ended in November 2000.


You may be right. If they did operate, it was very short lived.


Wow, Cointrin330. You need to know when to hold 'em and when to fold 'em.

Commavia was absolutely correct. JFK-FRA operated on the DC-10-30, switching to the 767, from 1987 until the early 1990s and then resumed in the late 90s with 767 equipment, only to be discontinued two years later.

Thr cessation of JFK-FRA in the early 90s seemed to coincide somewhat with the inauguration of MIA-FRA.

I non-revved on AA 68 JFK-FRA in September 1987. It was operating with a DC-10-30 at the time.

Commavia IS right. The route operated a total of about 5 years or so in total. It all depends on your definition of "very short-lived."
 
acentauri
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Re: Regarding AA's JFK-Zurich Route Ending (AA 64/AA65)

Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:47 am

caverunner17 wrote:
.............................

PHL: AMS, DUB, LHR, MAN, MAD, MUC, CDG, FCO, ZRH
Seasonal: ATH, BCN, FRA, GLA, LIS, PRG, SNN, VCE
............................

Seasonal: ATH, BCN,<BUD>, FRA, GLA, LIS, PRG, SNN, VCE
Actually the most surprising PHL Add (versus JFK), although not T/A, is Year Round MEX.
Last edited by acentauri on Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:52 am, edited 4 times in total.
 
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Jamake1
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Re: Regarding AA's JFK-Zurich Route Ending (AA 64/AA65)

Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:54 am

caverunner17 wrote:

vs UA

EWR: AMS, BCN, BRU, TXL, DUB, EDI, FRA, GVA, LIS, LHR, MAD, MAN, MXP, MUC, CDG, ZRH
Seasonal: KEF, SNN, ARN, VCE


From EWR, UA also flies FCO year-round. I don't believe LIS is year-round. I think LIS may be seasonal...along with ATH and HAM. I cannot recall if HAM is returning in 2018, but a new addition this year is OPO (Porto, Portugal).
Last edited by Jamake1 on Thu Mar 22, 2018 5:09 am, edited 3 times in total.
Come fly the sun.
 
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millionsofmiles
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Re: Regarding AA's JFK-Zurich Route Ending (AA 64/AA65)

Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:55 am

IrishAyes wrote:
So it actually appears that ORD-ZRH was launched in 1987, and JFK-ZRH came the following year in 1988, per this interesting history of American Airlines in Zurich that came out in Routesonline in 2012 when it was celebrating its 25th anniversary in Switz. Furthermore, the JFK-ZRH flight was suspended from Jan 1997 through Jan 2003.

US Airways launched PHL-ZRH on June 8, 2007. American flew PHL-ZRH until September 30, 2016.

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... itzerland/

Also, JFK-BRU was dropped in November 2012, not 2009.


I remember when a large number of the senior JFK flight attendants transferred to ORD with the establishment of ORD-FRA in 1985, and then more routes came in subsequent years, including a good deal of tag-end flying. ORD really was the epicenter of AA's international universe for a time...even more so than DFW, and we really thought all of the International growth would be there. At the time, nobody thought JFK would get anything beyond Caribbean turns. Then, AA announced JFK-FRA and JFK-ORY for 1987, and the senior JFK flight attendants came rushing back. I was but a baby flight attendant at the time but I still have the food service manual detailing all the International meal services (very elaborate at the time), including what we served on the tag-ends in Europe.
 
flydude380
Posts: 259
Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2017 4:43 pm

Re: Regarding AA's JFK-Zurich Route Ending (AA 64/AA65)

Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:14 pm

Really sad indeed to see another route killed off.

Other than the poor product offering, leaving much to be desired, perhaps AA is more interested in connecting and maintaining traffic between JFK and One World hubs such as LHR and MAD.

This however leads to a question... will AA go down the line further cutting routes such as CDG?

I think Delta has proven that JFK is their turf.
 
HPRamper
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Re: Regarding AA's JFK-Zurich Route Ending (AA 64/AA65)

Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:17 pm

iyerhari wrote:
The numbers speak for itself. Please see below airline percentages from 2006 and see how AA has gradually ceded ground first to B6 and then to DL.

Year DL B6 AA Total pax
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
2017 26.81% 23.01% 11.69% 59,345,421
2016 26.93% 23.05% 12.01% 58,956,288
2015 25.71% 23.01% 13.25% 56,827,154 AA+US
2014 24.37% 22.80% 14.33% 53,254,362 AA+US
2013 23.09% 23.21% 16.72% 50,423,765 AA+US
2012 23.34% 24.00% 17.30% 49,292,733 AA+US
2011 23.96% 23.97% 18.32% 47,683,529 AA+US
2010 24.96% 24.88% 17.00% 46,514,154 AA+US
2009 18.07% 26.67% 16.46% 45,915,069 (DL +NW) and AA, AAE and US
2008 17.44% 25.50% 17.76% 47,807,475 (DL +NW) and AA, AAE and US
2007 16.47% 28.28% 18.21% 47,716,941 (DL +NW) and AA, AAE and America West
2006 14.20% 27.32% 21.26% 42,629,470 (DL +NW) and AA, AAE and America West

Very interesting insights from these numbers. In the year 2002, AA was the topmost carrier at JFK and if you also include America West, the numbers are way too high.

2007 was the last year when AA was ranked 2 below DL. DL gradually built up the numbers after NW merger and after 2010, they have been running neck to neck with B6 and AA is much behind them. I must say a lot of A netters do not give enough kudos to B6 - they have done a fantastic job and given big sharks like DL and AA a run for their money. I am sure if you draw a graph of progress at BOS, the story would read the same except B6 is 0.5 times larger than AA and more than double of DL.

I believe AA management has realized they are safer at PHL to make money than running an ultra-competitive routes with B6 and DL as formidable competitors.

I can't figure out exactly why America West is included in this for any reason. Especially in 2006-2007 America West had nothing to do with American.
 
davescj
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Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2007 1:46 am

Re: Regarding AA's JFK-Zurich Route Ending (AA 64/AA65)

Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:37 pm

I wonder what is Parker's long term plan for JFK - Europe in general. Clearly, JFK is a major business market. Look at UA's regrets about not keeping at least a small presence in JFK for the purpose of business contracts (though I actually prefer Newark - Manhattan over JFK - Manhattan, but I take the train into town, not a taxi or limo). I find it interesting that AA has kept a "first" as well as "business" class, something no other US carrier has done.

I looked at LX for random dates R/T (April 4 and April 10). The difference between C was about 8300 and F was about 9200 for those particular dates. DL is about the same prices point in J, but is cheaper if you go via CDG.
Can I have a mojito on this flight?
 
lowfareair
Posts: 258
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2016 4:40 pm

Re: Regarding AA's JFK-Zurich Route Ending (AA 64/AA65)

Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:45 pm

acentauri wrote:
Actually the most surprising PHL Add (versus JFK), although not T/A, is Year Round MEX.

I will disagree and say that MEX is fairly expected - AA shies away from competition. PHL-MEX appears to have the traffic to support a daily flight but there are no nonstop competitors in the market and no decent low-fare options (B6 is the only one with a single one-stop option that involves 4-7 hour layovers in FLL each direction). JFK, OTOH, has 5 daily nonstops on DL/AM, 3-4 on InterJet, and 1-2 on ULCC Volaris. It makes perfect sense why AA wouldn't want to fly the route from JFK - there is too much competition on the route.
 
panamair
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Re: Regarding AA's JFK-Zurich Route Ending (AA 64/AA65)

Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:53 pm

IrishAyes wrote:
Furthermore, the JFK-ZRH flight was suspended from Jan 1997 through Jan 2003.
.


I don't believe that is correct. AA resumed JFK-ZRH 28 Oct 2001. It was a rather last minute decision as Swissair was in trouble at that time and was cutting back, while DL had also suspended its JFK-ZRH service until March 2002 (it actually did not come back until 2009) after the raft of post-9/11 cancellations. I remember flying AA65 ZRH-JFK around 30 Oct 2001 and there were about 20 of us on the whole plane.


winginit wrote:
Bingo, and that subpar product equated to subpar revenues and load factors as T100 shows us:

Average one-way fare by nonstop carrier: JFKZRH (non-directional average), 3Q2017 T100

AA: $343
DL: $409
LX: $515

Average load factor by nonstop carrier: JFKZRH (non-directional average), 3Q2017 T100

AA: 78%
DL: 83%
LX: 91%

If you can't compete, or aren't willing to invest in the product necessary to compete - you pack it up and go home.


It's amazing (and somewhat sad) how far and how quickly AA had fallen in the JFK-ZRH market. Delta was the one struggling as recently as 18-24 months ago in this market. AA had been in the market since the 2001 resumption, and had the Credit Suisse contract (amongst others) firmly in hand (former CS CEO Brady Dougan was a fixture on AA64/65). Delta had resumed JFK-ZRH on a seasonal basis in 2009, and was a non-player in the corporate market due to the seasonal nature of the flight (and on a 757 to boot). Then in 2014, Delta made the decision to go for the NYC corporate market to ZRH and made the JFK-ZRH flight year-round, and switched the ATL-ZRH to seasonal. Even at that time 2014-2016, Delta struggled mightily in this market and AA still consistently beat them in load factors and average fares. It was only sometime last year that Delta started to pull ahead; AA also lost some important contracts such as CS and it's been downhill from there.....AA's loads on JFK-ZRH this past winter have been atrocious even though they were only operating 4x weekly, and they have been consistently carrying around 20-50 fewer pax per flight than DL.

To be honest, I have my doubts how well PHL-ZRH is going to work as a year-round service. The strength of PHL is in pulling connections from interior US points, and this will work fine in the summer especially with American tourists still traveling to Europe in big numbers this coming summer. Problem is going to be in the winter...outside of a few holiday periods, flights like this will depend on corporate traffic, and the corporate traffic on ZRH-PHL or ZRH-PHL-interior US points will be difficult at best.
 
jasoncrh
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Re: Regarding AA's JFK-Zurich Route Ending (AA 64/AA65)

Thu Mar 22, 2018 2:00 pm

LIS is year round from Newark. It is seasonal from Washington - Dulles, on UA

Jamake1 wrote:
caverunner17 wrote:

vs UA

EWR: AMS, BCN, BRU, TXL, DUB, EDI, FRA, GVA, LIS, LHR, MAD, MAN, MXP, MUC, CDG, ZRH
Seasonal: KEF, SNN, ARN, VCE


From EWR, UA also flies FCO year-round. I don't believe LIS is year-round. I think LIS may be seasonal...along with ATH and HAM. I cannot recall if HAM is returning in 2018, but a new addition this year is OPO (Porto, Portugal).
 
EarlyLateORD
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Re: Regarding AA's JFK-Zurich Route Ending (AA 64/AA65)

Thu Mar 22, 2018 2:02 pm

The main issue at JFK is a lack of feed. PHL solves that. I am on MXP-JFK next month, curious what the load factor will be.

The AA terminal at JFK feels like a ghost town

Adam
 
TWFlyGuy
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Re: Regarding AA's JFK-Zurich Route Ending (AA 64/AA65)

Thu Mar 22, 2018 2:04 pm

I'm fairly certain AA also served JFK-DUS in the 80's.
 
SCQ83
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Re: Regarding AA's JFK-Zurich Route Ending (AA 64/AA65)

Thu Mar 22, 2018 2:14 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
BRU (dropped in 2009?)


I flew BRU-JFK on AA in 2012.
 
N983AN
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Re: Regarding AA's JFK-Zurich Route Ending (AA 64/AA65)

Thu Mar 22, 2018 2:15 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
American Airlines has served the following markets in Europe nonstop from JFK at one time or another, since the original 1987 opening of JFK as a TATL gateway:
BRU (dropped in 2009?)


BRU ended 11/2012 and operated with a 757 at the very end.

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... -nov-2012/

ORD ended shortly before bankruptcy in late summer 2011 and was historically a strong performer from ORD, but SN joining star alliance and UA starting the route caused profitability to plummet.
 
rlwynn
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Re: Regarding AA's JFK-Zurich Route Ending (AA 64/AA65)

Thu Mar 22, 2018 2:22 pm

How long did DFW-ZRH last? I flew that twice.
I can drive faster than you
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Regarding AA's JFK-Zurich Route Ending (AA 64/AA65)

Thu Mar 22, 2018 2:22 pm

caverunner17 wrote:
Surprising that they can't sustain much of a NYC TATL market and would rather push people to a OW hub instead since UA is able to have TATL traffic from both IAD and EWR without issue.

JFK: BCN, LHR, MAD, CDG
Seasonal: DUB, EDI, FCO

PHL: AMS, DUB, LHR, MAN, MAD, MUC, CDG, FCO, ZRH
Seasonal: ATH, BCN, FRA, GLA, LIS, PRG, SNN, VCE

vs UA

EWR: AMS, BCN, BRU, TXL, DUB, EDI, FRA, GVA, LIS, LHR, MAD, MAN, MXP, MUC, CDG, ZRH
Seasonal: KEF, SNN, ARN, VCE

IAD: AMS, BRU, FRA, GVA, LHR, MUC, CDG, ZRH
Seasonal: BCN, DUB, EDI, LIS, MAD, FCO

So UA's smaller east coast hub has 2x the number of destinations both seasonal and year-round that AA does at JFK and their ATL gateway has almost 2x as well year-round while AA beats them on seasonals.

Another data point is the number of *non partner* airlines they fly to.

JFK 1 + 2 seasonal
PHL 6 + 7 Seasonal
IAD 3 + 6 Seasonal
EWR 10 + 2 seasonal


You're missing a relevant fact in your [email protected] vs. [email protected] comparison: IAD isn't just the smaller of UA's East Coast TATL hubs, it's the primary international airport for WAS and is dominated by UA. Of course UA can support a lot of TATL traffic from IAD. Passengers aren't flying non-stop from DCA!

AA has largely ceded non-partner (UK/Spain/Ireland - BA/IB/EI) TATL traffic at JFK. Maybe that's Cointrin330's point, lost in all the rambling. As for NYC-ZRH, it's ugly to finish 4th in a four man race.
 
slcdeltarumd11
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Re: Regarding AA's JFK-Zurich Route Ending (AA 64/AA65)

Thu Mar 22, 2018 2:28 pm

This only makes cents. AA makes more money at a fortress hub and NYC is extremely competitive . PHL provides alot more connection power too.

AA is being smart to share holders by reducing JFK, too much competition in the NYC area right now unless you have a competitive advantage.
 
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Jamake1
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Re: Regarding AA's JFK-Zurich Route Ending (AA 64/AA65)

Thu Mar 22, 2018 2:43 pm

jasoncrh wrote:
LIS is year round from Newark. It is seasonal from Washington - Dulles, on UA.


Ahh okay, thanks. It gets confusing because aircraft metal gets swapped frequently between pm-CO and pm-UA. pm-CO must be flying LIS thru the winter.
Come fly the sun.
 
OKCDCA
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Re: Regarding AA's JFK-Zurich Route Ending (AA 64/AA65)

Thu Mar 22, 2018 2:56 pm

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
This only makes cents. AA makes more money at a fortress hub and NYC is extremely competitive . PHL provides alot more connection power too.

AA is being smart to share holders by reducing JFK, too much competition in the NYC area right now unless you have a competitive advantage.

This 100%

I'm a very loyal AA flyer and it shocks me that AA is reducing JFK so much, it goes against all logical, set-in-stone ways of doing things in the industry it feels like. But, it's nice to see an airline try new things and if AA thinks PHL is the way of the future then so be it, especially as long as they continue to deliver to their shareholders.
 
davescj
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Re: Regarding AA's JFK-Zurich Route Ending (AA 64/AA65)

Thu Mar 22, 2018 3:03 pm

OKCDCA wrote:
slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
This only makes cents. AA makes more money at a fortress hub and NYC is extremely competitive . PHL provides alot more connection power too.

[...]and it shocks me that AA is reducing JFK so much, it goes against all logical, set-in-stone ways of doing things in the industry it feels like. But, it's nice to see an airline try new things and if AA thinks PHL is the way of the future then so be it, [...].


I do understand making more money out of a fotress hub. This makes total sense.

I guess what I wonder longer term - what will be come of AA in JFK? Are they going to reduce it to point to point O/D only? The draw down does make sense on paper I'm sure, but will they end up ceding the entire JFK market?
Can I have a mojito on this flight?
 
Flighty
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Re: Regarding AA's JFK-Zurich Route Ending (AA 64/AA65)

Thu Mar 22, 2018 3:07 pm

davescj wrote:
I wonder what is Parker's long term plan for JFK - Europe in general. Clearly, JFK is a major business market. Look at UA's regrets about not keeping at least a small presence in JFK for the purpose of business contracts (though I actually prefer Newark - Manhattan over JFK - Manhattan, but I take the train into town, not a taxi or limo). I find it interesting that AA has kept a "first" as well as "business" class, something no other US carrier has done.

I looked at LX for random dates R/T (April 4 and April 10). The difference between C was about 8300 and F was about 9200 for those particular dates. DL is about the same prices point in J, but is cheaper if you go via CDG.


JFK may be a major business market, but it is a well-served one. I can't articulate why AA needs to serve anything from JFK other than partner hubs, LHR, CDG and probably FRA. Maybe MXP. But its strategy to serve the business capitals in Europe from JFK needs to be profitable. Evidently, it's not. Maybe Delta makes a few pennies on its flights. Maybe not. For both airlines, their real moneymaking business occurs elsewhere. Otherwise JFK would be a jealously-controlled fortress for somebody, which it's not.
 
davescj
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Re: Regarding AA's JFK-Zurich Route Ending (AA 64/AA65)

Thu Mar 22, 2018 3:13 pm

Flighty wrote:

JFK may be a major business market, but it is a well-served one. I can't articulate why AA needs to serve anything from JFK other than partner hubs, LHR, CDG and probably FRA. Maybe MXP. But its strategy to serve the business capitals in Europe from JFK needs to be profitable. Evidently, it's not. Maybe Delta makes a few pennies on its flights. Maybe not. For both airlines, their real moneymaking business occurs elsewhere. Otherwise JFK would be a jealously-controlled fortress for somebody, which it's not.


I would love to know how DL does on the European routes. DL has made a concerted effort to have 2 hubs in NYC (LGA, JFK). How is AA feeding the domestic travel to JFK? For example, only 1 non stop ORD/DFW to JFK (many more to LGA). Four daily PHX- JFK (and this is hub to hub, of course PHX has its own flights to Europe). There is no JFK - ATL on AA non stop (undoubtedly a market dominated by DL).

As to JFK being a fortress hub, I'm not sure DOJ would allow it. When US and DL wanted to slow swap NYC and Washington slots, they had to sell some off to preserve competition.
Can I have a mojito on this flight?
 
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IrishAyes
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Re: Regarding AA's JFK-Zurich Route Ending (AA 64/AA65)

Thu Mar 22, 2018 3:16 pm

rlwynn wrote:
How long did DFW-ZRH last? I flew that twice.


It started in 2000 and ran through 2007. Around the same time, SN started DFW-BRU and both flights were operated as part of the enhanced partnership between AA and SR and AA and SN.

I once heard that DFW-ZRH was AA's most profitable route for a period of time while the SR codeshare lasted (and later, LX) until LX was acquired by Lufthansa and then the route was basically history. I was at Anand Bazaar in Dallas in Summer of 2002 and the American Airlines rep said, "we're now flying to Delhi and Mumbai," although it was a codeshare operation, with AA doing DFW-ZRH and LX doing ZRH-DEL/BOM
 
Austin787
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Re: Regarding AA's JFK-Zurich Route Ending (AA 64/AA65)

Thu Mar 22, 2018 3:24 pm

davescj wrote:
I guess what I wonder longer term - what will be come of AA in JFK? Are they going to reduce it to point to point O/D only? The draw down does make sense on paper I'm sure, but will they end up ceding the entire JFK market?

I could see AA only serving its other hubs, and maybe LHR, out of JFK in the future. They should focus on making money at their PHL fortress hub, and leave the JFK war to Delta and JetBlue.
 
FSDan
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Re: Regarding AA's JFK-Zurich Route Ending (AA 64/AA65)

Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:58 pm

AA's management has a tricky but interesting puzzle they are trying to work out. They have hubs and long-established flyer bases in two major northeast markets that are geographically redundant from a network perspective. One market (NYC) is much larger and more lucrative than the other (PHL) overall, but it is fragmented across three major airports with various restrictions including slots and facility constraints, high costs, and major competition on both domestic and international fronts. On the other hand, they dominate the smaller market, although there is much less traffic (including premium traffic) to go around.

Adding to the complexity is that in NYC, AA is at a structural disadvantage to both of their biggest competitors - UA has the critical mass and facilities at EWR to support a global hub of ~430 departures, and DL has the slots to be able to offer about 100 more daily departures than AA at each of LGA and JFK. AA's strategy to manage this disadvantage has been to leverage their longstanding strength in the market to make a play for a major chunk of the premium traffic, much of which is tied to the Entertainment and Finance industries. As such, they have focused on serving major business and premium leisure destinations that cater to these clients.

However, this whole situation has obviously been a difficult nut to crack, and there have been some back-and-forth swings in the strategy from time to time. PHL was initially downsized a bit after the merger, and now is being built back up with added destinations and larger aircraft gauge. JFK had been increased as a transatlantic gateway at one point, and has since been pared back. Valuable LGA slots are being used to secondary markets in Ohio, North Carolina, and Virginia where AA has strength as a result of the merger, while they have lost ground in some important markets for their NYC base such as LGA-YYZ.

We'll see where things go, but I think given the structural disadvantages AA faces in NYC, they do need to continue focusing on the premium traveler if they are serious about maintaining a footprint there. They have the network and the partners to remain a key player in some of the biggest business markets from NYC: Los Angeles, Dallas, Chicago, Miami, Washington, Boston, Sao Paulo, London, Tokyo, Hong Kong, Sydney... but what will be interesting to see is how much of a play AA makes to become or stay relevant in markets where they aren't as strong - Toronto, San Francisco, Paris, Frankfurt, Zurich, Milan, Shanghai, etc. Can they remain the preferred airline of premium travelers without serving these markets? So far it appears they believe the answer is yes.
This is my signature until I think of a better one.
 
EddieDude
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Re: Regarding AA's JFK-Zurich Route Ending (AA 64/AA65)

Thu Mar 22, 2018 5:42 pm

lowfareair wrote:
JFK, OTOH, has 5 daily nonstops on DL/AM, 3-4 on InterJet, and 1-2 on ULCC Volaris. It makes perfect sense why AA wouldn't want to fly the route from JFK - there is too much competition on the route.

For years before the new bilateral came into effect, AA was very vocal about wanting to serve MEX-JFK. How things change.
Upcoming flights:
May: AM MEX-CUN 73H (Y), AM CUN-MEX 73W (Y).
August: KL MEX-AMS 74M (J), KQ AMS-NBO 788 (J).
 
iyerhari
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Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 4:25 pm

Re: Regarding AA's JFK-Zurich Route Ending (AA 64/AA65)

Thu Mar 22, 2018 6:15 pm

FSDan wrote:
AA's management has a tricky but interesting puzzle they are trying to work out. They have hubs and long-established flyer bases in two major northeast markets that are geographically redundant from a network perspective. One market (NYC) is much larger and more lucrative than the other (PHL) overall, but it is fragmented across three major airports with various restrictions including slots and facility constraints, high costs, and major competition on both domestic and international fronts. On the other hand, they dominate the smaller market, although there is much less traffic (including premium traffic) to go around.

Adding to the complexity is that in NYC, AA is at a structural disadvantage to both of their biggest competitors - UA has the critical mass and facilities at EWR to support a global hub of ~430 departures, and DL has the slots to be able to offer about 100 more daily departures than AA at each of LGA and JFK. AA's strategy to manage this disadvantage has been to leverage their longstanding strength in the market to make a play for a major chunk of the premium traffic, much of which is tied to the Entertainment and Finance industries. As such, they have focused on serving major business and premium leisure destinations that cater to these clients.

However, this whole situation has obviously been a difficult nut to crack, and there have been some back-and-forth swings in the strategy from time to time. PHL was initially downsized a bit after the merger, and now is being built back up with added destinations and larger aircraft gauge. JFK had been increased as a transatlantic gateway at one point, and has since been pared back. Valuable LGA slots are being used to secondary markets in Ohio, North Carolina, and Virginia where AA has strength as a result of the merger, while they have lost ground in some important markets for their NYC base such as LGA-YYZ.

We'll see where things go, but I think given the structural disadvantages AA faces in NYC, they do need to continue focusing on the premium traveler if they are serious about maintaining a footprint there. They have the network and the partners to remain a key player in some of the biggest business markets from NYC: Los Angeles, Dallas, Chicago, Miami, Washington, Boston, Sao Paulo, London, Tokyo, Hong Kong, Sydney... but what will be interesting to see is how much of a play AA makes to become or stay relevant in markets where they aren't as strong - Toronto, San Francisco, Paris, Frankfurt, Zurich, Milan, Shanghai, etc. Can they remain the preferred airline of premium travelers without serving these markets? So far it appears they believe the answer is yes.

Sorry for my ignorance here but asking a quick question. What would be the incentive for a business person or a frequent flier based off of NYC or who travels to NYC to commute to PHL and then take AA flight? The number of travelers from NYC would be far higher than PHL. I am not saying PHL is not a big city but I find it tough to imagine a traveler either taking a dreaded drive from NYC to PHL or taking a connecting flight to PHL. The flights from PHL on AA are also not very cheap. They are upwards of $1000 and if you apply corporate discounts, then there is a reduction for sure.

I am based off of BOS and there are really very few international destinations that PHL has to offer (BUD comes to my mind) that BOS does not have.
 
tphuang
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Re: Regarding AA's JFK-Zurich Route Ending (AA 64/AA65)

Thu Mar 22, 2018 6:26 pm

OKCDCA wrote:
slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
This only makes cents. AA makes more money at a fortress hub and NYC is extremely competitive . PHL provides alot more connection power too.

AA is being smart to share holders by reducing JFK, too much competition in the NYC area right now unless you have a competitive advantage.

This 100%

I'm a very loyal AA flyer and it shocks me that AA is reducing JFK so much, it goes against all logical, set-in-stone ways of doing things in the industry it feels like. But, it's nice to see an airline try new things and if AA thinks PHL is the way of the future then so be it, especially as long as they continue to deliver to their shareholders.


I fly AA more than any other airline out of NYC and their cuts are getting to the point that they will really start hurting soon. For me, cutting EDI, ZRH and MAN is probably not going to hurt them that much with corporate customers. But if they are going by the philosophy of cutting things that don't perform well, then there is a lot more to come. Since mint has launched on LAS and SAN, AA's yields there have dropped significantly. SEA is probably going to suffer the same prospect later this year and it wasn't great to start with. So if they go by the philosophy of cutting unprofitable routes, then LAS/SEA might get cut too at some point. They will get to a point where flights from PHL/BWI/DCA/IND/CLE that are mostly connection can't be supported anymore once the flights they are connecting to get cut.

davescj wrote:
Flighty wrote:

JFK may be a major business market, but it is a well-served one. I can't articulate why AA needs to serve anything from JFK other than partner hubs, LHR, CDG and probably FRA. Maybe MXP. But its strategy to serve the business capitals in Europe from JFK needs to be profitable. Evidently, it's not. Maybe Delta makes a few pennies on its flights. Maybe not. For both airlines, their real moneymaking business occurs elsewhere. Otherwise JFK would be a jealously-controlled fortress for somebody, which it's not.


I would love to know how DL does on the European routes. DL has made a concerted effort to have 2 hubs in NYC (LGA, JFK). How is AA feeding the domestic travel to JFK? For example, only 1 non stop ORD/DFW to JFK (many more to LGA). Four daily PHX- JFK (and this is hub to hub, of course PHX has its own flights to Europe). There is no JFK - ATL on AA non stop (undoubtedly a market dominated by DL).

As to JFK being a fortress hub, I'm not sure DOJ would allow it. When US and DL wanted to slow swap NYC and Washington slots, they had to sell some off to preserve competition.


If AA wants to keep the largest corporate contracts, it will need to keep flights other than just hubs. From the data I can see, DL seems to be far more interested in taking losses on routes to build up network and taking clients away from AA. I don't think JFK will ever be a fortress hub for DL. They are barely making any money here. LGA is more profitable for them. B6 puts huge pricing pressure on DL on all the leisure routes and mint routes.

Adding to the complexity is that in NYC, AA is at a structural disadvantage to both of their biggest competitors - UA has the critical mass and facilities at EWR to support a global hub of ~430 departures, and DL has the slots to be able to offer about 100 more daily departures than AA at each of LGA and JFK. AA's strategy to manage this disadvantage has been to leverage their longstanding strength in the market to make a play for a major chunk of the premium traffic, much of which is tied to the Entertainment and Finance industries. As such, they have focused on serving major business and premium leisure destinations that cater to these clients.

fewer slots is only one of the issues. They are simply not willing to sustain loss to keep some of these routes open, which DL has been willing to. They have enough slots to run a purely business destination oriented strategy and let DL compete against B6 to Florida and Caribbean. They still need some presence in the leisure market. Up to this point, they have mostly been doing that. But as they cut more of the under performing international destination and domestic routes like SJU, fewer ff will stick to AA since they don't fly everywhere people go to and then they will start loosing corporate contracts too. It's all a chain effect.

iyerhari wrote:
Sorry for my ignorance here but asking a quick question. What would be the incentive for a business person or a frequent flier based off of NYC or who travels to NYC to commute to PHL and then take AA flight? The number of travelers from NYC would be far higher than PHL. I am not saying PHL is not a big city but I find it tough to imagine a traveler either taking a dreaded drive from NYC to PHL or taking a connecting flight to PHL. The flights from PHL on AA are also not very cheap. They are upwards of $1000 and if you apply corporate discounts, then there is a reduction for sure.

I am based off of BOS and there are really very few international destinations that PHL has to offer (BUD comes to my mind) that BOS does not have.

You are not ignorant at all. You are right there is very little reason for a new yorker to go to PHL to fly internationally when DL/UA fly everywhere.
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: Regarding AA's JFK-Zurich Route Ending (AA 64/AA65)

Thu Mar 22, 2018 6:57 pm

You are right, AA in NYC is at the tipping point. They are a few cuts away from becoming TWA at JFK in the late 90s. That leads to bad places.

They have 2 choices: invest or leave.

I suspect it will be the latter and will effect JFK LGA and EWR.

Europe will slowly go from JFK. Then the feeder flights.

LGA will likely become what it was for US: irrelevant because they will have no long haul out of JFK or EWR to pair it with.

A sale of slots will ensue.

I would say they will shrink EWR...but they are so small there...what is left to cut?

Sad end is ahead for AA in NYC...imo
 
ctrabs0114
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Re: Regarding AA's JFK-Zurich Route Ending (AA 64/AA65)

Fri Mar 23, 2018 5:06 am

HPRamper wrote:
I can't figure out exactly why America West is included in this for any reason. Especially in 2006-2007 America West had nothing to do with American.


Because America West (HF) merged with US Airways in 2006, so I think the poster was attempting to add context to both AA's own totals and those of the airlines AA acquired during that time frame (HF, US), just has he included DL's and NW's pre- and post-merger figures.
2019: DAL, MCI, PHX, LAS, DFW, SAT, ORD, SLC, SEA, DTW; B73G (WN x3), B738 (WN, AA, DL), A20N (NK), MD83 (AA), B788 (AA x2), CS1 (DL), 739 (DL), 712 (DL)
Next: AA: DFW-PHL (752), PHL-MIA (763), MIA-LAX (77W), LAX-DFW (789)
 
LONGisland89
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Re: Regarding AA's JFK-Zurich Route Ending (AA 64/AA65)

Sat Mar 24, 2018 10:20 pm

Just watched AA65 fly over my house for the last time. It's very sad for me since AA64 was my first ever long haul flight. Over the years, I've nonreved many times on 64/65. Sad to see it go! Maybe in the future the route will come back on a 787 or 797.

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