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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: The only picture ever taken of Concorde flying at Mach 2

Thu Mar 22, 2018 5:10 pm

snnus wrote:
Not sure it would be doing Mach 2 over the Irish sea though?? Would have to be over the Atlantic?

That thought occurred to me too.
The logical explanation (and I admit this is pure guesswork) is that it wasn't crossing the Irish Sea East-West, but North-South, probably one of numerous special charters that started and finished at LHR which, if I recall correctly, included cockpit visits for the pax, whilst in flight. Just take a moment to let that idea sink in!

Besides - if it was further out over the Atlantic, the Tornado would never had reached it in the first place, unless they also arranged a tanker for the poor Tornado.

The other possibility is that the location was actually over the portion of the Atlantic known as the Celtic Sea, but because almost nobody except yachtsmen have heard of that particular body of water, the caption writers stretched the officially recognised limits of the better known Irish Sea.
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
MakeMinesLAX
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Re: The only picture ever taken of Concorde flying at Mach 2

Thu Mar 22, 2018 6:00 pm

reltney wrote:
What is the distortion after the 15th window which blurs the 16th?

I wonder if that's due to the shock wave. It's aligned with the leading edge of the wing, which is consistent with the visible shock waves (due to condensation) that appear in numerous photos of fighter planes making low-level supersonic passes.
 
bevan7
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Re: The only picture ever taken of Concorde flying at Mach 2

Thu Mar 22, 2018 6:42 pm

kiowa wrote:
What happened to the Concord that used to adorn Heathrow airport in London before that ghastly emirates airplane?


It's the gate guardian at the brooklands museum https://www.brooklandsmuseum.com/

Here's the location on google maps https://goo.gl/maps/jrAGjCF66RC2
 
MartijnNL
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Re: The only picture ever taken of Concorde flying at Mach 2

Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:01 pm

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
The logical explanation (and I admit this is pure guesswork) is that it wasn't crossing the Irish Sea East-West, but North-South, probably one of numerous special charters that started and finished at LHR which, if I recall correctly, included cockpit visits for the pax, whilst in flight. Just take a moment to let that idea sink in!

Cockpit visits were common with European airlines some time ago. So this doesn't seem special to me. But of course Concorde was different from all other civil aircraft.
 
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XAM2175
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Re: The only picture ever taken of Concorde flying at Mach 2

Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:14 pm

JOYA380B747 wrote:
MartijnNL wrote:
Why didn't they take more photos? Maybe one from the other side, with the sun in the back?


It wasn't like the RAF Tornado pilot had a big time window to take shots from multiple angles, considering the fuel it burned to reach FL600, fly at Mach 2+, align with the Concorde, and leaving enough fuel to return to base. They may have taken more shots from this angle but I guess this was the best one.


Bingo! Obviously the PR value of such a shot is incredible but to be realistic, an air-to-air shot of Concorde at a lower altitude and a subsonic speed is going to look 99% identical in the eyes of people who aren't familiar with how a supersonic shot does or should look, and considering that other than another Concorde the only aircraft that could get such a supersonic shot were (and still are) military types I'm not surprised such shots are scarce...

Indeed it could well even be the case that this particular encounter wasn't even formally arranged but was rather a major case of right-place-right-time for the RAF officer who'd brought his camera along for a lark!

william wrote:
It does make one wander (and yes there are countless threads on how fickle the mx on Concorde was) if Airbus would had done a low level NEO on her with non afterburner supersonic cruise engines, how much less fuel would it had consumed.


Considering that Airbus were actively unwilling to continuing supporting Concorde discussion along these lines is beyond hypothetical, especially seeing as there's some evidence to suggest that AF were totally committed to their withdrawal from service and therefore colluded with Airbus to prevent BA carrying on as sole operator.

However, your wonderment was addressed in part long before Airbus even came to exist in the way we know today as Aerospatiale began considering such an effort barely four months after EIS in 1976, with the aim of delivering a "B-type" Concorde by late 1982 and laying the groundwork for a hypothetical replacement type for EIS in the mid-'90s.

Concorde B would have used improved-performance versions of the "CEO" engines and also incorporated aerodynamic improvements, changes to certain construction methods and materials, and additional fuel tanks, which would have yielded specs along these lines (assuming a payload of 11260 kg):

Operating Empty Weight (t): 84.3 (+6.3; 8.1%)
Zero Fuel Weight (t): 97.5 (+5.5; 6.0%)
Max Fuel Load (kg): 99790 (+4536; 4.8%)
Max. Landing Weight (t): 115.6 (+4.6; 4.1%)
Max. Take-off Weight (t): 185.9 (+4.5; 2.5%)
Fuel Consumption (kg): 77.9 (-1.2; 1.5%)
Range (km): 6564.5 (+626; 10.5%)
Take-off Noise (EPN dB): 109 (-10.5; 8.8%)
Landing Noise (EPN dB): 109 (-7.7; 6.6%)
 
cpd
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Re: The only picture ever taken of Concorde flying at Mach 2

Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:49 pm

XAM2175 wrote:
JOYA380B747 wrote:
MartijnNL wrote:
Why didn't they take more photos? Maybe one from the other side, with the sun in the back?


It wasn't like the RAF Tornado pilot had a big time window to take shots from multiple angles, considering the fuel it burned to reach FL600, fly at Mach 2+, align with the Concorde, and leaving enough fuel to return to base. They may have taken more shots from this angle but I guess this was the best one.


Bingo! Obviously the PR value of such a shot is incredible but to be realistic, an air-to-air shot of Concorde at a lower altitude and a subsonic speed is going to look 99% identical in the eyes of people who aren't familiar with how a supersonic shot does or should look, and considering that other than another Concorde the only aircraft that could get such a supersonic shot were (and still are) military types I'm not surprised such shots are scarce...

Indeed it could well even be the case that this particular encounter wasn't even formally arranged but was rather a major case of right-place-right-time for the RAF officer who'd brought his camera along for a lark!

william wrote:
It does make one wander (and yes there are countless threads on how fickle the mx on Concorde was) if Airbus would had done a low level NEO on her with non afterburner supersonic cruise engines, how much less fuel would it had consumed.


Considering that Airbus were actively unwilling to continuing supporting Concorde discussion along these lines is beyond hypothetical, especially seeing as there's some evidence to suggest that AF were totally committed to their withdrawal from service and therefore colluded with Airbus to prevent BA carrying on as sole operator.

However, your wonderment was addressed in part long before Airbus even came to exist in the way we know today as Aerospatiale began considering such an effort barely four months after EIS in 1976, with the aim of delivering a "B-type" Concorde by late 1982 and laying the groundwork for a hypothetical replacement type for EIS in the mid-'90s.

Concorde B would have used improved-performance versions of the "CEO" engines and also incorporated aerodynamic improvements, changes to certain construction methods and materials, and additional fuel tanks, which would have yielded specs along these lines (assuming a payload of 11260 kg):

Operating Empty Weight (t): 84.3 (+6.3; 8.1%)
Zero Fuel Weight (t): 97.5 (+5.5; 6.0%)
Max Fuel Load (kg): 99790 (+4536; 4.8%)
Max. Landing Weight (t): 115.6 (+4.6; 4.1%)
Max. Take-off Weight (t): 185.9 (+4.5; 2.5%)
Fuel Consumption (kg): 77.9 (-1.2; 1.5%)
Range (km): 6564.5 (+626; 10.5%)
Take-off Noise (EPN dB): 109 (-10.5; 8.8%)
Landing Noise (EPN dB): 109 (-7.7; 6.6%)



We've all seen the lower altitude photos and videos and they do not look like this. Not even remotely similar to even the most disinterested people. The clouds look much closer and the sky is nowhere near as dark.

Unless you were in a MIG25 or something else extremely fast and long ranged, a shot like this would have been by chance only. Most fighter planes would be either too slow, or run out of fuel very quickly. Even just planning the course to "intercept" the Concorde would have needed to be precisely done. Otherwise you'd probably get nowhere near Concorde.

For those asking about altitude here, it would be around 54,000ft, maybe 56,000ft. FL600 was rarely achieved except on lightly loaded Concorde aircraft or in very cold conditions.
Last edited by cpd on Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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barney captain
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Re: The only picture ever taken of Concorde flying at Mach 2

Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:50 pm

cpd wrote:

We've all seen the lower altitude photos and videos and they do not look like this. Not even remotely similar to even the most disinterested people. The clouds look much closer and the sky is nowhere near as dark.

For those asking about altitude here, it would be around 54,000ft, maybe 56,000ft. FL600 was rarely achieved except on lightly loaded Concorde aircraft or in very cold conditions.



Thank you for that analysis.
Southeast Of Disorder
 
evank516
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Re: The only picture ever taken of Concorde flying at Mach 2

Thu Mar 22, 2018 8:38 pm

I'm in awe. Beautiful picture.
 
Airdolomiti
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Re: The only picture ever taken of Concorde flying at Mach 2

Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:21 pm

Beautiful, just beautiful. So sleek and so utterly ahead of its time then and now. I agree with those who say that her retirement was an enormous technological step back that is unlikely to be compensated anytime soon.

G-BOAG is also the one Concorde I flew on. I haven’t been to the Museum of Flight yet, but I did visit her sister ship preserved in Barbados (G-BOAE) and barely managed to hold back tears.
 
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Narfish641
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Re: The only picture ever taken of Concorde flying at Mach 2

Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:30 pm

So awesome!
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Stitch
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Re: The only picture ever taken of Concorde flying at Mach 2

Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:38 pm

william wrote:
It does make one wander if Airbus would had done a low level NEO on her with non afterburner supersonic cruise engines, how much less fuel would it had consumed.


The Rolls-Royce/Snecma Olympus 593 engines did not require re-heat (afterburner) in supersonic cruise. Concorde only used afterburners for take-off and to reduce the time and fuel required to reach altitude.
 
cpd
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Re: The only picture ever taken of Concorde flying at Mach 2

Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:58 pm

Stitch wrote:
william wrote:
It does make one wander if Airbus would had done a low level NEO on her with non afterburner supersonic cruise engines, how much less fuel would it had consumed.


The Rolls-Royce/Snecma Olympus 593 engines did not require re-heat (afterburner) in supersonic cruise. Concorde only used afterburners for take-off and to reduce the time and fuel required to reach altitude.



The B model was to have been a pseudo NEO if you want to call it that. No reheat and more power too. Quieter as well. Climb performance was predicted to have been much better as well. It would have been an excellent plane.
 
Pendennis
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Re: The only picture ever taken of Concorde flying at Mach 2

Thu Mar 22, 2018 10:57 pm

BAe / BAe Systems had (maybe still have) a number of defined routes over the Irish Sea for supersonic test flights. The longest runs from the South Coast of Scotland, down the West Coast of Wales and terminates off the the Welsh Coast near Fishguard. I'm not aware of any of these tracks being used by the RAF. If it covered the full length, the Tornado would usually rendezvous with a tanker at the end of the run. I would suspect that this shot was taken on a pre-aranged rendezvous on this track.
 
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ER757
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Re: The only picture ever taken of Concorde flying at Mach 2

Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:10 pm

Just beautiful!
I was fortunate enough to be able to photograph this magnificent aircraft as she was on approach to KBFI near the end of her final flight ever.
While I never flew on Concorde, I did get to see it take off at the Osh Kosh fly-in one year just shortly after a thunderstorm had rolled through. I will never forgot the huge plumes of spray coming off the runway as it departed and of course that mighty roar of the engines. The thrill of being able to stand that close to the runway and witness the power is a memory that will stick with me forever
 
Cunard
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Re: The only picture ever taken of Concorde flying at Mach 2

Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:21 pm

kiowa wrote:
george77300 wrote:
kiowa wrote:
What happened to the Concord that used to adorn Heathrow airport in London before that ghastly emirates airplane?


That’s a model. Both not life size and no idea where it went. There is a real Concorde at LHR though. If you are in the queue for takeoff RWY 27L you can see it at the corner of BA Maintenance.


The Concord was lovely even as a model. Not so with the current model.


Sorry I have to be pedantic but you have clearly missed the 'e' on Concorde in two of your posts!
94 Countries, 327 Destinations Worldwide, 32 Airlines, 29 Aircraft Types, 182 Airports, 335 Flights.
 
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Tugger
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Re: The only picture ever taken of Concorde flying at Mach 2

Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:39 pm

barney captain wrote:
I searched but didn't see this posted - truly an amazing picture.

The only picture ever taken of Concorde flying at Mach 2 (1,350 mph). Taken in April 1985 by Adrian Meredith, from an RAF Tornado attack fighter, which only rendezvoused with Concorde for 4 minutes over the Irish Sea: The Tornado was rapidly running out of fuel, struggling to keep up with Concorde at Mach 2.


http://www.vintag.es/2017/07/heres-only ... en-of.html

Image

What a machine, a truly magnificent beast! A beauty that I wish I had the chance to see and fly on.

Thanks for posting!

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
seat1a
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Re: The only picture ever taken of Concorde flying at Mach 2

Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:54 pm

Awesome photo! One of the few good reasons I come to this site. Great shots, always some background and an interesting question.

Thanks for sharing!
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: The only picture ever taken of Concorde flying at Mach 2

Fri Mar 23, 2018 12:14 am

I'm no expert, but I believe the "flat earth" comment was sarcasm, so let's just leave it at that. There's no reason to have a fundamental debate when we can all agree that the earth is, in fact, not flat. There's also no reason for this place to be entirely sanitized of humor. Just like fanboys and tolls, those who don't find something funny can simply ignore it.

✈️ atcsundevil
 
kiowa
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Re: The only picture ever taken of Concorde flying at Mach 2

Fri Mar 23, 2018 12:24 am

Cunard wrote:
kiowa wrote:
george77300 wrote:

That’s a model. Both not life size and no idea where it went. There is a real Concorde at LHR though. If you are in the queue for takeoff RWY 27L you can see it at the corner of BA Maintenance.


The Concord was lovely even as a model. Not so with the current model.


Sorry I have to be pedantic but you have clearly missed the 'e' on Concorde in two of your posts!


You are correct! I do remember watching the ConcordE doing touch-and-gos at Oshkosh with passengers on board many years back. They were putting the ATC communications with the pilots over the loud speakers. Very Cool!
 
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aeromoe
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Re: The only picture ever taken of Concorde flying at Mach 2

Fri Mar 23, 2018 12:51 am

reltney wrote:
What is the distortion after the 15th window which blurs the 16th? Angle of the sun seems about right but with the sun at that angle, would the plane be so bright on the left.

Someone on this site should have good answers.

Let's hear them...


Some flat-earther will come along and claim that distortion is PROOF POSITIVE the photo is fake just like they think all NASA photos of the earth from space are fake as well as the alleged curvature of the earth.
Since 60s: AA AC AS BA BD BF BN BR(85) BY B6 CO CZ(16) DG DL EA EI EN FI FL FT F9 HA HP ICX JI JQ J7 KE KL KS LH MC NW OC OO OZ(87) OZ(88) PA PI PN(97) PT QF QQ RM RO RV(99) RV(16) RW SK SM SQ S4 TI TS TW UA UK US UZ VS VX WA WN WS W7 XV YV YX(13) ZZ 9K
 
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aeromoe
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Re: The only picture ever taken of Concorde flying at Mach 2

Fri Mar 23, 2018 12:54 am

atcsundevil wrote:
I'm no expert, but I believe the "flat earth" comment was sarcasm, so let's just leave it at that. There's no reason to have a fundamental debate when we can all agree that the earth is, in fact, not flat. There's also no reason for this place to be entirely sanitized of humor. Just like fanboys and tolls, those who don't find something funny can simply ignore it.

✈️ atcsundevil


Exactly. So lighten up, Francis. :)
Since 60s: AA AC AS BA BD BF BN BR(85) BY B6 CO CZ(16) DG DL EA EI EN FI FL FT F9 HA HP ICX JI JQ J7 KE KL KS LH MC NW OC OO OZ(87) OZ(88) PA PI PN(97) PT QF QQ RM RO RV(99) RV(16) RW SK SM SQ S4 TI TS TW UA UK US UZ VS VX WA WN WS W7 XV YV YX(13) ZZ 9K

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