Air India’s inaugural Delhi-Tel Aviv flights is the first commercial flight in 7 decades to fly over Saudi Arabia en route to Israel. AI139 is being operated by VT-ANX 787-8.



Source: FlightRadar24 https://twitter.com/flightradar24/statu ... 7823272964

Keeping religion and politics aside, quite an interesting fact. As most of us know, El Al's Asia flights bypass Saudi airspace and instead routing down the Read Sea and eastwards: https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flig ... 1#10c98812

A historic moment, I suppose.

Does Pakistan also prevent Israel bound aircraft from overflying it, and thus a detour to Mumbai and the Arabian Sea, rather than following the GC route?

Does Iraq prevent overflights to/from Israel?

Bravo, Air India!!!

SeaDoo wrote:

Does Iraq prevent overflights to/from Israel?

anshabhi wrote:

Does Pakistan also prevent Israel bound aircraft from overflying it, and thus a detour to Mumbai and the Arabian Sea, rather than following the GC route?

Now that Saudi has allowed AI to overfly, I suppose many countries who have antagonistic relations with Israel would also fold if pressured, with the exception of Iran and its own bloc of countries.

However, there was really no point in India approaching Iraq to test this, as the rest of the route wouldn't be viable anyway. The same goes for Pakistan, as the Israelis themselves shot down the idea of overflying Afghanistan & Pakistan due to security concerns.

Nope, India-Arabian Sea-Oman-Saudi-Jordan-Israel seems to be the best that can be achieved for now! Still no mean feat that they managed to get this to happen. Hence, a 2nd kudos to AI, Indian MEA, and whatever parties on the Israeli side were involved. El Al sure isn't happy though...

globetrotter94 wrote:

Out of interest, AI previously operated to TLV in the 20th century. At that time, I guess the route would have been similar to the routes LY is using for BOM-TLV?

Did that route originate in BOM? Was it an A310 back then?

Long overdue. It’s no secret the Saudis cooperate with the Israelis indirectly and covertly.

anshabhi wrote:

Does Pakistan also prevent Israel bound aircraft from overflying it, and thus a detour to Mumbai and the Arabian Sea, rather than following the GC route?

Pakistan, Iran, Iraq - they all deny overflying rights to Israel bound aircraft.

This is a diplomatic coup by the Indian government!

globetrotter94 wrote:

Out of interest, AI previously operated to TLV in the 20th century. At that time, I guess the route would have been similar to the routes LY is using for BOM-TLV?

Did that route originate in BOM? Was it an A310 back then?

Out of interest, AI previously operated to TLV in the 20th century. At that time, I guess the route would have been similar to the routes LY is using for BOM-TLV?

Yes it was a 310 from BOM. That much is certain. But we do not know the route.

unrave wrote:

Yes it was a 310 from BOM. That much is certain. But we do not know the route.

It is interesting why AI did not start the route from BOM this time around as well. I would imagine Bombay has more economic & cultural ties with Israel. Or maybe just to avoid direct confrontation with LY? I would imagine the DEL-TLV flight would mostly be supported by government-to-government contacts? Or do Israelis vacation as much in North India as they do West India?

globetrotter94 wrote:

unrave wrote:

Yes it was a 310 from BOM. That much is certain. But we do not know the route.

It is interesting why AI did not start the route from BOM this time around as well. I would imagine Bombay has more economic & cultural ties with Israel. Or maybe just to avoid direct confrontation with LY? I would imagine the DEL-TLV flight would mostly be supported by government-to-government contacts? Or do Israelis vacation as much in North India as they do West India?

I think for 2 reasons. 1 . LY is already too much dis-advantaged to be competed against.
2. DEL is AI's main hub, and AI is eyeing transit pax to SE Asia/Australia with these flights as well.
3. I have heard some reports of Israelis going to Uttarakhand and Himalayas for yoga etc, but their main destination is Goa!!
And obviously slot issues at BOM ..

globetrotter94 wrote:

It is interesting why AI did not start the route from BOM this time around as well.

Primarily because DEL is the hub for AI now while it was BOM then. Also BOM is already served by LY. This flight also provides a connection for AI's BKK flights and Israeli head to Thailand in droves.

Which country/airline could be next to get similar rights?
And do you think at sometime AI will upgrade this to 6-7/week?

coolian2 wrote:

But Israel isn't 70 years old?

Formed roughly in 1948, and I think that's where the 7 decades figure comes from.
Saudi has banned flights since then

But Israel isn't 70 years old?

coolian2 wrote:

But Israel isn't 70 years old?

Israel will be 70 on the 19th of April. Based on the date the 4th of Iyyar is this year.

I wonder how much further it would be to fly India-China-Tajikistan-Uzbekistan-Azerbaijan-Armenia-Turkey-Cyprus and in from the Northwest?

Your worst enemy's worst enemy is your best friend

Does it mean that other airlines from Asia such as CX or KE will soon be able to overfly Saudi for their TLV routes?

B742 wrote:

Source: FlightRadar24 https://twitter.com/flightradar24/statu ... 7823272964

Does anyone know why does the flight fly all the way to Mumbai before turning west over Arabian Sea? It cannot overfly Pakistan, but it could still have taken a more direct route to get to the Arabian Sea.

raylee67 wrote:

Does anyone know why does the flight fly all the way to Mumbai before turning west over Arabian Sea? It cannot overfly Pakistan, but it could still have taken a more direct route to get to the Arabian Sea.

I guess that must have something to do with the availability of appropriate diversion airports

raylee67 wrote:

Your worst enemy's worst enemy is your best friend

Does it mean that other airlines from Asia such as CX or KE will soon be able to overfly Saudi for their TLV routes?

I imagine that for KE, it wouldn't make much sense anyway since it's shorter to route over Turkey. However, for CX, might make sense. I don't imagine that LY would be happy for a 2nd one of its competitors to get an advantageous flightpath though.

drdisque wrote:

I wonder how much further it would be to fly India-China-Tajikistan-Uzbekistan-Azerbaijan-Armenia-Turkey-Cyprus and in from the Northwest?

Out of the question as China is very stringent about overflights into Tibet and Xinjiang. Almost no flights ever cross the Himalayas, even on DEL-East Asia, but are instead routed over northern Bengal, Bangladesh, Myanmar, and then into Yunnan province.

raylee67 wrote:

B742 wrote:

Source: FlightRadar24 https://twitter.com/flightradar24/statu ... 7823272964

Does anyone know why does the flight fly all the way to Mumbai before turning west over Arabian Sea? It cannot overfly Pakistan, but it could still have taken a more direct route to get to the Arabian Sea.

Avoid Iran Airspace. Iran, as well as a few other countries will not allow an aircraft going or coming to Israel to use their airspace.

32andBelow wrote:

Doesn't the US provide ATC services to Iraq and they have the balls to deny overflights to Israel?

To fly over Iraq requires flying over Afghanistan and Pakistan. Parts of Iraq are not insured for civil aviation due to conflict.

Iran, Qatar, and the UAE are not onboard which limits paths.

The current route seems tailored to gi over Saudi territory.

This route is amazing. I'll take the baby step.

So what are the odds that LY will gain the same overflight rights over Saudi Arabia and Oman, which this AI flight does?

I already know the answer to my rhetorical question about countries but I gotta say it: Can't we all just get along??

VT-ANX on the ground in TLV earlier tonight

I think there’s very limited air service between Pakistan and India. Perhaps only the PIA flight from Lahore to Delhi. No flights by Air India, as far I’m aware. Is there limited overflight freedom? That might also account for the routing on the flight to Israel that avoids Pakistani airspace. Just wondering.

Very interesting, a historic moment indeed for non-governmental travel.

Secondly, I think even though the US provides the ATC for Iraq, I imagine that they still work around the general policies of the government and just run the day-to-day.

DaveFly wrote:

I think there’s very limited air service between Pakistan and India. Perhaps only the PIA flight from Lahore to Delhi. No flights by Air India, as far I’m aware. Is there limited overflight freedom? That might also account for the routing on the flight to Israel that avoids Pakistani airspace. Just wondering.

Yes, there is very limited air connectivity between India and Pak but there is no restriction on overflying rights. West bound flights from India regularly overfly Pakistan airspace. Just like many other Islamic countries Pakistan denies overflying rights for Israel bound aircraft.

The thread title is WRONG.

Air India flew BOM-TLV for a while in the 1990s with the right to fly over the GCC countries, but those rights were taken away in 1997.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=185913&p=1750703&hilit=tlv#p1750703

See post # 12.

BTW, the person who authored that post, Sean Mendis, is a longstanding airline professional, and a highly sophisticated individual regarding the airline industry, who has "family ties" with Air India, and knows the airline's history very well.

Perhaps some here have their own personal contacts who can attest to the '90s-era flight, or who can find old paper timetables. It was apparently an A310 service.

I also found an old Israeli media piece referring to the service:

http://www.globes.co.il/en/article-352110

Now, in addition to the AI service, there was a TWA around-the-world service back in the 1970s with a TLV-BOM leg:

viewtopic.php?t=527177

See post # 20.

In this case, TWA was forced to avoid the Arabian peninsula, but could easily fly over Iran as this was during pre-revolution days when the Shah ruled Iran.

(Yes, I know the thread title notes the 1960s, but there are other sources that indicate this service was in the 1970s. People can conduct ever more searches on their own.)

I strongly suggest that some of the over-excited younger participants from India here do their research more carefully.

aemoreira1981 wrote:

So what are the odds that LY will gain the same overflight rights over Saudi Arabia and Oman, which this AI flight does?

Arguable, but apparently it's not off the table completely that LY will get overflight rights.

With the new Crown Prince running the show, there has been a definite mood change from Riyadh. A Saudi defence minister was quoted as telling his Israeli counterpart "We are not your enemy anymore". There has been the start of high level bilaterals and the Air India decision to permit overflights is one of the first signs of this in the civil field.

I don't think there will ever be direct links but LY may well find it is cleared for overflights before much longer, with the proviso that routings stay away from military installations. The shared policies on Iran and its proxies is what has brought the two sides closer.

upwardfacing wrote:

The thread title is WRONG.

Air India flew BOM-TLV for a while in the 1990s with the right to fly over the GCC countries, but those rights were taken away in 1997.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=185913&p=1750703&hilit=tlv#p1750703

See post # 12.

BTW, the person who authored that post, Sean Mendis, is a longstanding airline professional, and a highly sophisticated individual regarding the airline industry, who has "family ties" with Air India, and knows the airline's history very well.

I strongly suggest that some of the over-excited younger participants from India here do their research more carefully.

Oh but why bother with research? Thats so boring! This is the FIRST time something like this has happened in Indian history and the full credit should go to the govt for making this diplomatic coup happen!

@BawliBooch

This development actually came about due to an Israeli-Saudi backchannel negotiation done in Washington DC during the Israeli PM's most recent visit to the USA. That's where the Israeli PM made the announcement.

The euphoria expressed here, and that attendant pride expressed here, with plaudits galore going to the government in Delhi, is amusing indeed.

Even on the Indian side of the equation, as you would know, there is a significant difference between an elected government and the permanent bureaucracy that tends to do all of the behind-the-scenes work.

In fact, the Indian MEA staff made quite a silly mistake by using an Israeli media article as a source to announce the overflight rights, instead of establishing its own verification through negotiations or consultations. They had to withdraw the press announcement. Luckily the problem was later solved, somehow.

One thing everyone should know is that the Indian diplomatic corps is woefully inadequate, and desperately needs significant additional capacity. The other thing to note is that particularly at the mid-level, staff apparently are not allowed to handle simple, routine tasks without approval from higher ranks, causing ever further bureaucratic delays.

The only true Indian contributing factor in this episode is that India is economically and strategically important enough to the Kingdom that the Saudis granted this favour to the Israelis, who again are looking after their own economic and geostrategic interests.

But let the chest-beating among patriots continue!

raylee67 wrote:

Your worst enemy's worst enemy is your best friend

Does it mean that other airlines from Asia such as CX or KE will soon be able to overfly Saudi for their TLV routes?

huh who is the worst enemy's worst enemy? Apparently, India is friendly with all the nations involved here ..

Does anyone know why does the flight fly all the way to Mumbai before turning west over Arabian Sea? It cannot overfly Pakistan, but it could still have taken a more direct route to get to the Arabian Sea.

Apparently because about 500 miles beyond Pakistan land borders too, the airspace belongs to them. It can't overfly Arabian Sea in that region, and then Indian Air Force has reserved some airspace over Arabian Sea for defense flights only. (Restricted airspace)

DaveFly wrote:

I think there’s very limited air service between Pakistan and India. Perhaps only the PIA flight from Lahore to Delhi. No flights by Air India, as far I’m aware. Is there limited overflight freedom? That might also account for the routing on the flight to Israel that avoids Pakistani airspace. Just wondering.

There's no restriction on overflight freedom. Almost all India-West and Gulf flights overfly Pakistan. I heard though they are restricted to FL300 and above.

upwardfacing wrote:

The thread title is WRONG.


I strongly suggest that some of the over-excited younger participants from India here do their research more carefully.

TBH, it was FR24 which first claimed it to be the first flight in over 7 decades. Its a trustworthy enough source for me to not verify what they are claiming ..

anshabhi wrote:

raylee67 wrote:

Your worst enemy's worst enemy is your best friend

Does it mean that other airlines from Asia such as CX or KE will soon be able to overfly Saudi for their TLV routes?

huh who is the worst enemy's worst enemy? Apparently, India is friendly with all the nations involved here ..

He is referring to Iran.

upwardfacing wrote:

The thread title is WRONG.

I strongly suggest that some of the over-excited younger participants from India here do their research more carefully.

You're right in pointing out that many of us here would have been too young to know anything about what happened in the 90s and I am gladly willing to research on this topic further. This is what I have found so far:

India Today report that mentions the ending of 70 year ban

But Indian journalism can indeed be shoddy at times. Let us look at what folks on the Israel side say:
Ynet news report which agains mentions a 70 year ban.

Things don't get more credible than Reuters, which also mentions that this flight marks the end of 70 year ban on overflying Israel bound flights by Saudi Arabia.

If all these are indeed wrong, and if you say that BOM-TLV flights overflew Saudi Arabia, then I am afraid I am not able to find any credible news report other than some claims in the comments sections.

As far as the politics of it, Indian diplomacy and foreign policy definitely deserves some credit. Why was Air India given this privilege and not LY or TG?

unrave wrote:

upwardfacing wrote:

As far as the politics of it, Indian diplomacy and foreign policy definitely deserves some credit. Why was Air India given this privilege and not LY or TG?

Indeed. And the credit to be extended is at a much broader level than just for this flight. How many countries can keep up high levels of engagement with Iran, Israel, and Saudi simultaneously while also preserving great relations with all 3?

And it looks like AI's flight has punched open the proverbial stable doors. Now SQ is also reported to be eyeing flights to Israel overflying Saudi:

https://www.nasdaq.com/article/israel-s ... 0322-00958

For a civilian aircraft destined for Israel to fly over Saudi Arabia and Oman safely is a major coup for the Israeli diplomatic personnel. I have to give it to the Saudis as well for accepting this flight and I am sure there were some goodies given in-return during the negotiations.

I would not be surprised that currently the only fly over Saudi Arabia and Oman corridor, to and from Israel is approved by the Israeli government.

As for the Indian government and Air India, it's less of a coup. Yes the Indian government and Air India had to fight for the right but only when the the fly over was granted by Saudis and Omanis in principal. I doubt the Saudis and Omanis cared as to which country the flight originated from or destined to.

I am guessing granting the corridor to Air India are for the following reasons:

1) The route is not competing with EL AL, hence the Israeli government may not have been in talks with the Thais or the Hong Kong/Chinese government. The reason India won I suspect is due to Air India flying a non competing route with EL AL. While Hong Kong, Bangkok and Mumbai are all served on EL AL metal.

2) This route is not going to make any money. I am sure the Israeli government knows this and the Indian government is doing it for prestige sake and solidifying their commitment to the relationship with Israel. If privatisation of Air India goes ahead, this will be the first route that will be drop unless subsidised heavily.
a. How many personnel of the 2 governments really require to travel between the 2 countries on a weekly bases? I can not see the Israeli defence industry making many trips to Delhi or even their agricultural industry?
b. Tourism, basing it on my wife, Indians have no idea about Israel and would rather travel to the usual aspiring Indian middle class joints that is Bangkok, Dubai, Singapore, Paris, London and New York. Yet I believe she will get more value with a trip to Israel. (It is true what Russel Peters says about Indian, it is us who taught the Israelis, Dutch and Scotts on how to be stingy with money). As for the Israelis, I am guessing their tourist numbers (per capita) to the northern India would be similar to any other western country. Hence you will be lucky to see a handful of tourists onboard.

3) Majority of the traffic between India and Israel is to Mumbai, the finance hub of India and Surat is not far Mumbai (compared to Delhi) which is competing with Tel Aviv, New York and Antwerp as the diamond capital of the world. Hence EL AL has got this route in the bag.

4) I am guessing that if the flyover was granted to Thai, the Israeli government would have annoyed the Jordanian and Turkish governments and their respected national carriers, as most of the traffic between Israel and Thailand is flown by Royal Jordanian and Turkish Airlines (as airliners.net)

This flight is a win-win situation for all involved:
1) Thai, Royal Jordanian, Turkish Airlines, El Al - Not competing with Air India.
2) Israeli government - starting to make friends of old enemies.
3) Indian government - Making Air India loose money.
4) Saudi and Omani Governement - "Walking the talk", starting to be more open (Still a long way to go.)

None the less congratulations to all who made it happen. I hope this is a sign of better things to come with more openness from the Islamic countries.

globetrotter94 wrote:

And it looks like AI's flight has punched open the proverbial stable doors. Now SQ is also reported to be eyeing flights to Israel overflying Saudi:

https://www.nasdaq.com/article/israel-s ... 0322-00958

They’ll have issues much closer to home in either avoiding or seeking flyover approval for Indonesian and Malaysian airspace.

upwardfacing wrote:

The thread title is WRONG.

Air India flew BOM-TLV for a while in the 1990s with the right to fly over the GCC countries, but those rights were taken away in 1997.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=185913&p=1750703&hilit=tlv#p1750703

See post # 12.

That post mentions Gulf countries and for whatever it is worth, it doesn't specify Saudi Arabia. It could have overflown one or more GCC countries without overflying Saudi Arabia. Here are a few independent news reports that confirm that this is indeed the fist such instance in 70 years:

The Guardian

The Times of Israel

The Telegraph (UK)

How much more credible should the sources be? And should one believe all these reports or a comment made on an aviation forum 15 years back?

32andBelow wrote:

Doesn't the US provide ATC services to Iraq and they have the balls to deny overflights to Israel?

Sort of, but not really. It's a NATO contract serviced by IAP. I think Leidos and Serco have contracts of some sort, too. Contractors still have to go along with whatever policies are required in that country. Iraq is a sovereign nation, so despite what the US may or may not want, they're still free to make their own policies in aviation. If Iraq won't permit overflights to Israel, then the contractors have to go along with that. Just because the contract is to a US company and managed by NATO doesn't negate that.

globetrotter94 wrote:

unrave wrote:

upwardfacing wrote:

As far as the politics of it, Indian diplomacy and foreign policy definitely deserves some credit. Why was Air India given this privilege and not LY or TG?

Indeed. And the credit to be extended is at a much broader level than just for this flight. How many countries can keep up high levels of engagement with Iran, Israel, and Saudi simultaneously while also preserving great relations with all 3?

Totally agree. What's weird is that most of the press outside of India makes this into some victory for Israeli diplomacy. It's clearly Modi who pushed for this and kudos to him for not joining in all the fan fare like Benj Net (I actually feel his public comments right before the flight was announced hurt things rather than helped). Throwing it in the face of the Saudi people just aggravates them. AI already flew over gulf countries for their BOM-TLV flight. People forget that the Govt of India has done a good job of keeping most of the Gulf countries in India's orbit through business deals (example aviation bilaterals). That said, why is this flight so long? DEL-JED is 5:35 hours and DEL-ADD is 7 hours. Plus the TLV-DEL-BOM connection is crazy long. I guess better than if there was a ban over Saudi but still not great routing. Also glad AI is flying TLV-DEL leaving TLV-BOM to EL. I think both countries benefit by connecting two different Indian cities. Should help business and tourism to both countries.

And OceanVikram - I am sorry your post makes no sense - AI didn't "win" anything. Israel didn't dole out anything to AI. I am willing to bet no other airline will get overflight rights because HKG, BKK, SIN are not super close to Saudi or the ME in general. This was all about Modi pushing Saudi for this flight because he is using connectivity as part of his diplomacy plan (he did it with SFO flight). You are right AI will not make money, and I don't think EL Al makes money on TLV-BOM. These flights exist solely for diplomacy reasons. Israel and India, rightly or wrongly, see strategic rational in being better linked with each other. Where you are right is that Israel probably did prevent the overflight of Pakistan and did have to approve the route that AI would take. The Israeli govt is not so myopic to block flights because it will hurt El Al (look at the EU open skies - it hurt El Al). Israel wants to be connected to the world (probably more than another country - for obvious reasons).

luckyone wrote:

globetrotter94 wrote:

And it looks like AI's flight has punched open the proverbial stable doors. Now SQ is also reported to be eyeing flights to Israel overflying Saudi:

https://www.nasdaq.com/article/israel-s ... 0322-00958

They’ll have issues much closer to home in either avoiding or seeking flyover approval for Indonesian and Malaysian airspace.

Hmmm... hadn't considered that. But like I said before, I think that now that Saudi has folded, there is a good chance that the rest will fold as well. I am under the impression that with regard to Israel, most of the countries just follow what some of the leaders of their power bloc, such as Saudi, or Iran, do. In AI's case, Oman certainly did not take much persuading once Saudi said yes--in fact there was almost no media focus on what Oman would do.

I wonder if the fly over rights will sometime become bilateral and flights from Europe to Riyadh could fly over Israeli airspace and short some of the distance.
For example this flight from London to Riyadh fly quite a long detour to avoid Israel and Syria air space.

CaliguyNYC wrote:

globetrotter94 wrote:

unrave wrote:

Indeed. And the credit to be extended is at a much broader level than just for this flight. How many countries can keep up high levels of engagement with Iran, Israel, and Saudi simultaneously while also preserving great relations with all 3?

You are right AI will not make money, and I don't think EL Al makes money on TLV-BOM. These flights exist solely for diplomacy reasons. Israel and India, rightly or wrongly, see strategic rational in being better linked with each other..

El Al is a private company who will cut loss making routes,diplomacy has nothing to do with this flight. BOM has plenty of business traffic and the front of the plane is usually full, they are even adding capacity to BOM this summer, so your statement basically makes no sense