N516jb
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American A320 Retirement

Mon Mar 26, 2018 8:23 am

Anyone heard anything about when AA will retire their 320's? I found it funny how they are already retiring the eldest 738s already. Since they are retiring the first phase of orders delivered from 99-01 why are the 20+ year old 320's still sticking around? Some of these birds (647AW) first flew in 1997. With a huge number of 320s from the late 90's- early 00's why aren't these going before the 738's? The 320 is more of a sub-fleet for AA anyway.
 
Samrnpage
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Re: American A320 Retirement

Mon Mar 26, 2018 10:38 am

Its all about cycles and without knowing what they are then we can guess the Airbus A320s have less.
 
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Midway737
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Re: American A320 Retirement

Mon Mar 26, 2018 10:42 am

I think they are trying to keep the fleets young. Wants to get rid of fleets that are aging.
 
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keesje
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Re: American A320 Retirement

Mon Mar 26, 2018 11:02 am

I think there are 400 A320 series in AA service as we speak with many more coming. When you are operating a fleet of this size, economies of scale can justify modification programs and investment that are a good idea for total fleet management over individual (aging) aircraft. we saw them same with the MD fleet. Maybe holding the A320 a bit longer enables getting out the MD80s quicker..
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
StudiodeKadent
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Re: American A320 Retirement

Mon Mar 26, 2018 11:44 am

Aren't AA's A320-family aircraft very young?
 
Lpbri
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Re: American A320 Retirement

Mon Mar 26, 2018 11:54 am

They are about the same age as the 737s being retired (1999-2001 build)
 
jfk777
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Re: American A320 Retirement

Mon Mar 26, 2018 11:56 am

AA has quite a menagerie of A320, they have America West and Usairways A320. Then they have A319 and A321 that AW, US and AA purchased, its quite a stable of engine combinations, planes of different ability, configurations and age.
 
columba
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Re: American A320 Retirement

Mon Mar 26, 2018 12:17 pm

keesje wrote:
I think there are 400 A320 series in AA service as we speak with many more coming.


Can not believe that they have so many already. Still remember the "AA won´t order any Airbus aircraft" threads and the surprise when AA ordered the A321/A319 for the first time.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
saab805
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Re: American A320 Retirement

Mon Mar 26, 2018 12:19 pm

Current AA Airbus Fleet size (LAA +LUS)
319 - 125
320 - 48
321 - 219

The cycles are similar between the oldest 320s and the oldest 737s, however on average the 320s have higher counts.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: American A320 Retirement

Mon Mar 26, 2018 12:31 pm

keesje wrote:
I think there are 400 A320 series in AA service as we speak with many more coming. When you are operating a fleet of this size, economies of scale can justify modification programs and investment that are a good idea for total fleet management over individual (aging) aircraft. we saw them same with the MD fleet. Maybe holding the A320 a bit longer enables getting out the MD80s quicker..


The thread was about the A320 and AA has 48 of them. The oldest 20 years old, the youngest 8 years old.

The average age of the A319 and especially the A321 at AA are quite bit lower.
Last edited by mjoelnir on Mon Mar 26, 2018 12:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
TWFlyGuy
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Re: American A320 Retirement

Mon Mar 26, 2018 1:04 pm

There could be an ownership cost issue as well. Not sure but just another piece of the economic justification. That could include if 320's are owned but encumbered in any way for financing whereas the 738's are not.
 
bigb
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Re: American A320 Retirement

Mon Mar 26, 2018 1:34 pm

Actually, the only 737-800s are those block 1 a/c. They were delivered with a older HUD that is different from newer delivered birds. Apparently the HUDs in these older birds are no longer being produced thus will make it very difficult to upgrade them and very expensive. That is one of the reasons for the early retirements of some of the 737-800s.
 
Kronesian
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Re: American A320 Retirement

Mon Mar 26, 2018 2:11 pm

Not anytime soon, they're ferrying quite a bunch of A320's here to MLB to be fitted with WiFi, so I doubt they'll waste that investment.
KMLB
 
jbs2886
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Re: American A320 Retirement

Mon Mar 26, 2018 2:29 pm

This is all pretty funny with the A320 holds up better and AA is taking more A320 series.

...AA has already retired A320s, 20 of them in fact. https://www.planespotters.net/productio ... s=historic
 
mjoelnir
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Re: American A320 Retirement

Mon Mar 26, 2018 4:05 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
This is all pretty funny with the A320 holds up better and AA is taking more A320 series.

...AA has already retired A320s, 20 of them in fact. https://www.planespotters.net/productio ... s=historic


Yes, and quite a few 737-400 have been retired at AA, that were the contemporaries of the oldest A320.
 
jbs2886
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Re: American A320 Retirement

Mon Mar 26, 2018 4:29 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
This is all pretty funny with the A320 holds up better and AA is taking more A320 series.

...AA has already retired A320s, 20 of them in fact. https://www.planespotters.net/productio ... s=historic


Yes, and quite a few 737-400 have been retired at AA, that were the contemporaries of the oldest A320.


Right, but your initial comment was A320s may hold up better than early-build 738s.
 
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exFWAOONW
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Re: American A320 Retirement

Mon Mar 26, 2018 4:40 pm

Did AA route the 320s on longer stages and the 738s on shorter? If so, the 738s would rack up cycles sooner.
Is just me, or is flying not as much fun anymore?
 
Flighty
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Re: American A320 Retirement

Mon Mar 26, 2018 5:14 pm

AA has:

4 A320 between MSN 4000 and 4250
3 A320 between MSN 2000 and 2700
9 A320 between MSN 1300 and 2000
23 A320 between MSN 1000 and 1300
9 A320 between MSN 750 and 1000

So, there is a significant age range. America West had an older idiosyncratic fleet of IAE engine ac, US had a uniform fleet of original owner CFM ac, then the combined US/HP took a few more IAE and CFM new builds respectively after they merged. I don't think AA itself has ever taken an A320 delivery.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: American A320 Retirement

Mon Mar 26, 2018 5:29 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
This is all pretty funny with the A320 holds up better and AA is taking more A320 series.

...AA has already retired A320s, 20 of them in fact. https://www.planespotters.net/productio ... s=historic


Yes, and quite a few 737-400 have been retired at AA, that were the contemporaries of the oldest A320.


Right, but your initial comment was A320s may hold up better than early-build 738s.


Yes, if 20 year old A320 stay and 20 year old 737-800 are retired. What that has to do with retiring the oldest A320, contemporaries not of the 737-800, but of the 737-400?
 
WkndWanderer
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Re: American A320 Retirement

Mon Mar 26, 2018 5:37 pm

They already parked 5 more of the A320's last year and they have somewhere ~19 left that are around the same age as the 737's being parked. The older 737 HUD issue and the fact that they have at least 90 new narrowbodies scheduled for delivery between now and 2020 obviously gives them quite a bit of flexibility
 
mffoda
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Re: American A320 Retirement

Mon Mar 26, 2018 5:38 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
Perhaps the early A320 hold better up to usage than theearly 737-800.


And that's reflected in the lease rates right?

Or perhaps what many a mechanic who work on both types have said on a-net right?

:banghead:
harder than woodpecker lips...
 
strfyr51
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Re: American A320 Retirement

Mon Mar 26, 2018 5:43 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
sxf24 wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
Perhaps the early A320 hold better up to usage than theearly 737-800.


I don’t think there’s data to support this supposition.

What we do know is that there’s a huge amount of demand from Amazon, Chinese express carriers and others for standard body freighters. This is increasing demand for used 737-800s to the point that none are available. I suspect this plays into a decision to retire one type earlier than another.


What information do I need? AA is prepared to get rid of younger 737-800 and keep using older A320. Their is a freighter conversion programs for both the A320 and the 737-800. High cycle rather old frames should not be the best feed stock for freighter conversion.

When it would be the other way round, it would be the first supposition, that a frame holds better up to usage. There is also rumor around, that the oldest 737-800 have problems and high service cost.


American is merely taking advantage of the B737-800's capacity to be converted to a freightter and be sold with a lot of value as was the B727 befoe it. To date that I know of? I con't know of anybody that has coverted an A321,A320 or A319 to freighter configuration. I'm not saying they Can't but in the USA? Nobody has done it that I know of. So? The residual value of the A320 series might be less than the residual value of the B737 series in secondary applications..
 
MajMattMason
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Re: American A320 Retirement

Mon Mar 26, 2018 7:41 pm

321Precision, a joint venture between Precision Aircraft and ATSG to covert A321 p2f.

https://www.precisionaircraft.com/a321/
 
1989worstyear
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Re: American A320 Retirement

Mon Mar 26, 2018 7:57 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:

Yes, and quite a few 737-400 have been retired at AA, that were the contemporaries of the oldest A320.


Right, but your initial comment was A320s may hold up better than early-build 738s.


Yes, if 20 year old A320 stay and 20 year old 737-800 are retired. What that has to do with retiring the oldest A320, contemporaries not of the 737-800, but of the 737-400?


Remember, the 738 and 734 are different designs, unlike an A320-200 CEO from 1988 and one from 2000 (same exact plane). A better Boeing NB comparison would be the 752, which didn't change much since '84.
Stuck at age 15 thanks to the certification date of the A320-200 and my parents' decision to postpone having a kid by 3 years. At least there's Dignitas...
 
n7371f
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Re: American A320 Retirement

Tue Mar 27, 2018 4:32 am

I thought the 320 was being sunset at AA...but that was from information a few years back - AA wanted to go with the 321. Kirby was calling the shots and didn't like the 319 (notice how he went to UA and killed the 73G order?). So maybe AA has warmed back to the 320. Putting 2Ku on certainly is a sign the planes are not going anywhere. That said, they've done nothing to the interiors.
 
DeSpringbokke
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Re: American A320 Retirement

Tue Mar 27, 2018 4:54 am

n7371f wrote:
I thought the 320 was being sunset at AA...but that was from information a few years back - AA wanted to go with the 321. Kirby was calling the shots and didn't like the 319 (notice how he went to UA and killed the 73G order?). So maybe AA has warmed back to the 320. Putting 2Ku on certainly is a sign the planes are not going anywhere. That said, they've done nothing to the interiors.


Was just on an A320 with a newly reupholstered seating, carpeting, and walls to match the AA standards. The seats felt and smelled as if they were just installed. Armrests were squeaky as hell though. And of course, no MCE or power was added. :mad: Why AA does not bring MCE/power to the A320s yet is adding 2KU I have no idea. At least the LUS A321s will get MCE and power when the two A321ceo fleets are standardised at 190 seats with AVOD at every seat ripped out. :mad:
 
travelhound
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Re: American A320 Retirement

Tue Mar 27, 2018 5:02 am

If we go back ten years airlines still.operating the 744 would retire the aircraft upon the time of the D check. As such younger 744's were being retired whilst older 744's were being retained.

When you think about it, parts from a newer aircraft would be far more usable to support a fleet of aircraft than parts from an older aircraft.

As such economics, not aircraft age or type would be the primary consideration.
 
n7371f
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Re: American A320 Retirement

Wed Mar 28, 2018 4:15 am

Same game plan as the LUS 321's - new seat covers and that's it. Those F/C seats on the America West A320's were bad when HP was still flying!

As for power - Dougie has some sort of hang up with power. He did with wifi too. And he does with in-seat video. At least he and Kirby got smacked at US when their grand plan to stay wi-fi free starting costing them major $$$$.

DeSpringbokke wrote:
n7371f wrote:
I thought the 320 was being sunset at AA...but that was from information a few years back - AA wanted to go with the 321. Kirby was calling the shots and didn't like the 319 (notice how he went to UA and killed the 73G order?). So maybe AA has warmed back to the 320. Putting 2Ku on certainly is a sign the planes are not going anywhere. That said, they've done nothing to the interiors.


Was just on an A320 with a newly reupholstered seating, carpeting, and walls to match the AA standards. The seats felt and smelled as if they were just installed. Armrests were squeaky as hell though. And of course, no MCE or power was added. :mad: Why AA does not bring MCE/power to the A320s yet is adding 2KU I have no idea. At least the LUS A321s will get MCE and power when the two A321ceo fleets are standardised at 190 seats with AVOD at every seat ripped out. :mad:
 
rj1385
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Re: American A320 Retirement

Wed Mar 28, 2018 5:23 am

If all groups (pilots, attendants, etc) are not united, it is also easier to rid planes that are being replaced by the same plane. AA, I am guessing cannot suddenly move 737s to CLT or PHX to replace A320s.
 
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Momo1435
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Re: American A320 Retirement

Wed Mar 28, 2018 8:11 am

rj1385 wrote:
If all groups (pilots, attendants, etc) are not united, it is also easier to rid planes that are being replaced by the same plane. AA, I am guessing cannot suddenly move 737s to CLT or PHX to replace A320s.

This, the 737-8 MAX are coming in right now, the A321neo will only come in from next year. I wouldn't even be surprised if the A321neo will start to replace some of the oldest A321ceo's before the A320s will be retired.
 
commavia
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Re: American A320 Retirement

Wed Mar 28, 2018 12:26 pm

n7371f wrote:
Same game plan as the LUS 321's - new seat covers and that's it.


Except that isn't the game plan for the LUS 321s, which will all be getting MCE, power, expanded bins and high-speed satellite wifi (with streaming IFE) over the course of the next few years. Personally, I can't wait.
 
DfwRevolution
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Re: American A320 Retirement

Wed Mar 28, 2018 12:37 pm

WkndWanderer wrote:
They already parked 5 more of the A320's last year and they have somewhere ~19 left that are around the same age as the 737's being parked. The older 737 HUD issue and the fact that they have at least 90 new narrowbodies scheduled for delivery between now and 2020 obviously gives them quite a bit of flexibility


Is the HUD part of the 737NG MEL? I thought it was a purely optional feature in flight operations.
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