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Re: Great Lakes (ZK) suspends operations

Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 1:33 pm
by RJNUT
wjuddsonk wrote:
It's a sad day that anyone loses their job in aviation and an airline dies.


Agreed but it is also sad to go down with a sinking ship that has been set in motion for about decade and not see it coming.

Re: Great Lakes (ZK) suspends operations

Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 1:52 pm
by YLWbased
there goes the last and only Scheduled Commercial Service to and from Cheyenne, Wyoming.

YLWbased

Re: Great Lakes (ZK) suspends operations

Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 2:00 pm
by TripleA
AntonioMartin wrote:
Wow..didnt see that coming! Wonder who will take Great Lakes' extensive service from Phoenix to outer Arizona cities such as Prescott and Show Low, or if they too will be laid to rest alongside Great Lakes.

Although not a major airline, Great Lakes was a presence for many years-decades actually, becoming a legend of its own, specially in the commuter airline world. RIP GLA!


ZK hasn't served Show Low in several years, they have Boutique Air providing them flights now. As for PRC, I doubt they'll get any service from any larger airline, at least until they build a larger terminal. Their current terminal is very small.

Re: Great Lakes (ZK) suspends operations

Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 2:00 pm
by RJNUT
YLWbased wrote:
there goes the last and only Scheduled Commercial Service to and from Cheyenne, Wyoming.

YLWbased

for sometime now it has been down to one flight per WEEK!

Re: Great Lakes (ZK) suspends operations

Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 2:04 pm
by wedgetail737
jetstream3399 wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
MO11 wrote:

Border Coast Regional Airport Authority is the one that needs to worry about filling planes. It is chartering the aircraft from Contour, so Contour should have figured out how much it would take to run that schedule, and passed the appropriate cost on to the Authority. And moving the airplanes between Crescent City and Smyrna for maintenance would have to be a somewhat extraordinary expense.

Then you are in Oakland with no code shares. Please. Everyone will continue to use ACV.


The service is actually doing extremely well - booked to over a 50% load factor in April already and with 30+ more days to continue to add traffic. I don't know that this is the best option for connecting travelers but for local O&D to the Bay Area, of which there is plenty from the region, this represents a welcome change from the $300+ one way fares that United has been charging from ACV and MFR. In fact, the newspaper article that came out shortly after tickets went on sale quoted one of the first passengers that booked as from ACV and willing to drive just to to CEC just to save the extra money. Say what you will about Contour but their TUP-BNA service runs about 80% full and MCN-BWI runs about 70% full on a 30-seat ERJ with twice daily service. Filling a 30-seat ERJ with an inexpensive daily flight should not be particularly difficult since the traffic study that was done actually showed the Bay Area as the largest traffic market from the CEC area.


I booked a quick, over-night trip on Contour for the end of April, giving them a try. I think their schedule today is pretty good for connections through OAK, especially with the likes of WN...even though you have to buy two separate tickets and may have to leave security to claim and recheck your bags. Just allow a lot of time for connections...like 2 hours. I hope Contour does well and plans for some expansion...maybe to include MFR and ACV.

Re: Great Lakes (ZK) suspends operations

Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 2:19 pm
by flight152
wjuddsonk wrote:
It's a sad day that anyone loses their job in aviation and an airline dies.

It’s also a sad story of an airline that took advantage of its employees for years and paid barely living wages.

Re: Great Lakes (ZK) suspends operations

Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 3:53 pm
by Frontier14
There are a lot of Big 3 pilots out there that got there start with Great Lakes. The FAA change in Part 135 pilot flight hour requirements really did Lakes in. Their service after that collapsed, as was evident in the loss of so much of the EAS flying. Good memories of flying the Rockies in the ol' Beechs. :white:

Frontier 14

Re: Great Lakes (ZK) suspends operations

Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 4:20 pm
by Newark727
Dang it, I never got to see one of their EMB-120s...

Re: Great Lakes (ZK) suspends operations

Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 4:35 pm
by ridgid727
flight152 wrote:
wjuddsonk wrote:
It's a sad day that anyone loses their job in aviation and an airline dies.

It’s also a sad story of an airline that took advantage of its employees for years and paid barely living wages.


Yes, sad sotry it is, Voss built a huge retreat for himself down in the Page Arizona area, and pilfered the company for all he could.

Re: Great Lakes (ZK) suspends operations

Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 5:11 pm
by MO11
QXAS wrote:
Well this is a shame. I use them to get home from school in Prescott because I hate taking the shuttle to Phoenix. Connecting in LAX was so easy because they used T6 and I fly AS exclusively between LAX and SEA. Sad to see them go. Crossing my fingers QX brings back the LAX-PRC-FLG tag. Coincidentally my first ever QX flight was when they were introducing that flight. It was on the magazine cover. I was on the Portland shuttle that day. Thought nothing of it. Now I’m hoping they bring it back. But it’s more for convinience than anything. It’s certainly not “essential”.


Which certainly is a conundrum. The purpose if EAS us to connect small airports with the national air transportation system. Right now, Arizona Shuttle best fills that bill (no matter how many stops it makes, or how bad I-17 is). LAX isn't the best option for making connections (particularly going east). LAS or SLC would be better, but the two biggest players at LAS don't interline, and there isn't an airline with a DL interline agreement that will serve PRC.

I don't think QX has the resources to resume service there.

Re: Great Lakes (ZK) suspends operations

Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 6:03 pm
by ual747den
Sad to see them go, I have been on many flights with them, I never needed to go anywhere that they flew but I enjoyed flying on the Beech and 120's so I would spend the day flying with them every once in a while. Back then they had a pretty good sized operation out of Denver, they were flying codeshare for UA and F9 at the time and as a UA employee I was able to non-rev for free. It was cool flying with them, when we would land I would just stay on the aircraft and BS with the crew until we were ready to board the pax and head back. The days when I flew with them I would just go to the airport and talk to the gate agent and see what was open in and out so I could get back to Denver! I hadn't realized that their operation was suffering so badly, it is really sad to see them go...

Re: Great Lakes (ZK) suspends operations

Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 6:14 pm
by lightsaber
Where can pilots without an ATP gain hours now in the USA?

Re: Great Lakes (ZK) suspends operations

Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 6:22 pm
by Ionosphere
I regret never nonreving on Great Lakes when I had the chance.

Re: Great Lakes (ZK) suspends operations

Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 7:55 pm
by FlyingElvii
Frontier14 wrote:
There are a lot of Big 3 pilots out there that got there start with Great Lakes. The FAA change in Part 135 pilot flight hour requirements really did Lakes in. Their service after that collapsed, as was evident in the loss of so much of the EAS flying. Good memories of flying the Rockies in the ol' Beechs. :white:

Frontier 14


Great Lakes is a LONG story with many ups and downs.
As far as paying "Living Wages", as has been noted before, if you still have resumes arriving on the desk, there is no need to raise wages. Sucks, but there it is.

The destruction of the economy in the Mid-2000's, as well as the complete lack of any suitable replacement aircraft in that segment were major contributors to the fall, IMHO. GL's planes weren't just old, they were OLD..., with everything that entails. Between Clinton's Mid-90's "Reforms", and the arbitrary hours rule, I am surprised that they made it this long.

Re: Great Lakes (ZK) suspends operations

Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 9:04 pm
by diaspotter
Key Lime Air (Denver Air Connection) still operates an EMB-120. APA-GJT-APA typically--in addition to some NCAA charters.

Re: Great Lakes (ZK) suspends operations

Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 9:04 pm
by diaspotter
N366DC

Re: Great Lakes (ZK) suspends operations

Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 9:13 pm
by KCaviator
lightsaber wrote:
Where can pilots without an ATP gain hours now in the USA?


Flight instructing, pipeline patrol, aerial mapping, flying for the countless other 135 operators, etc, etc, etc

Re: Great Lakes (ZK) suspends operations

Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 9:18 pm
by KCaviator
FlyingElvii wrote:
Frontier14 wrote:
There are a lot of Big 3 pilots out there that got there start with Great Lakes. The FAA change in Part 135 pilot flight hour requirements really did Lakes in. Their service after that collapsed, as was evident in the loss of so much of the EAS flying. Good memories of flying the Rockies in the ol' Beechs. :white:

Frontier 14


Great Lakes is a LONG story with many ups and downs.
As far as paying "Living Wages", as has been noted before, if you still have resumes arriving on the desk, there is no need to raise wages. Sucks, but there it is.

The destruction of the economy in the Mid-2000's, as well as the complete lack of any suitable replacement aircraft in that segment were major contributors to the fall, IMHO. GL's planes weren't just old, they were OLD..., with everything that entails. Between Clinton's Mid-90's "Reforms", and the arbitrary hours rule, I am surprised that they made it this long.


Exactly. This is why pay didn’t improve sooner. Many people forget that just 5-6 years ago pilots were PAYING airlines to work for them. You can say all you want about liveable wages, but pilots were lining up at the door to work in those conditions.

Re: Great Lakes (ZK) suspends operations

Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 7:11 pm
by KarlB737
Courtesy: Aviation Pros
Regional Airline Association Statement on Great Lakes Suspension of Operations

http://www.aviationpros.com/press_release/12405542/regional-airline-association-statement-on-great-lakes-suspension-of-operations

Re: Great Lakes (ZK) suspends operations

Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 7:33 pm
by PSAjet17
Saw this on Facebook from Air Wisconsin:

Air Wisconsin Airlines
March 28 at 7:06am ·

Our entire team is sorry to hear that Great Lakes Airlines has ceased operations. We would like to offer any current Great Lakes pilot the opportunity to bypass the interview and reserve an expedited class date. All time while in training is paid, and as part of our $57,000 bonus program you receive your first $5,000 during your first month of training and an additional $26,000 after completion of IOE.

Email: [email protected]

Re: Great Lakes (ZK) suspends operations

Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 7:45 pm
by QXAS
I don’t see PRC getting service again unless it’s a tag from FLG. AA already flies to FLG so a tag through PRC wouldn’t be impossible. I’m glad Air Wisconsin is taking in the pilots.

Re: Great Lakes (ZK) suspends operations

Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 9:50 pm
by KCaviator
Air Wisconsin is not "taking in the pilots," they are simply allowing them to bypass the interview if they so chose to work at ZW. Also, they are not the only airline trying to benefit (i.e. acquire pilots) by Great Lakes' demise. Mesa, Trans States, and Republic are just as savage and have offered some type of preferential treatment to former ZK pilots.

Re: Great Lakes (ZK) suspends operations

Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 1:02 am
by wedgetail737
One would think QX would be on top of this for hiring pilots and 1st officers. QX brought in almost all of the Island Air's pilots fairly quickly.

Re: Great Lakes (ZK) suspends operations

Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 1:44 am
by DiamondFlyer
wedgetail737 wrote:
One would think QX would be on top of this for hiring pilots and 1st officers. QX brought in almost all of the Island Air's pilots fairly quickly.


All 17 of them? They'll go where they want.

Re: Great Lakes (ZK) suspends operations

Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 1:53 am
by Varsity1
lightsaber wrote:
Where can pilots without an ATP gain hours now in the USA?


Non-turbojet 135 doesn't have the same hour rules as TJet135 and 121 (1500). You can fly in the right seat of normal 135 at 500 hours and be a captain at 1200 hours.

Great lakes was literally just THAT bad. Flying super expensive B1900's doesn't help when your competition is flying Pc-12's with exactly half the fuel burn.


Had they bought PC-12's, ZK would still be here today.

Re: Great Lakes (ZK) suspends operations

Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 4:14 am
by wedgetail737
DiamondFlyer wrote:
wedgetail737 wrote:
One would think QX would be on top of this for hiring pilots and 1st officers. QX brought in almost all of the Island Air's pilots fairly quickly.


All 17 of them? They'll go where they want.


I saw it in a report about QX's recovery from the major pilot shortage.

Re: Great Lakes (ZK) suspends operations

Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 4:17 am
by wedgetail737
Varsity1 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Where can pilots without an ATP gain hours now in the USA?


Non-turbojet 135 doesn't have the same hour rules as TJet135 and 121 (1500). You can fly in the right seat of normal 135 at 500 hours and be a captain at 1200 hours.

Great lakes was literally just THAT bad. Flying super expensive B1900's doesn't help when your competition is flying Pc-12's with exactly half the fuel burn.


Had they bought PC-12's, ZK would still be here today.


Of course the PC-12's have exactly half of the fuel burn of the 1900's...the PC-12's have exactly half the engines of the 1900's. PC-12's have less than half of the passenger capacity as well.

Re: Great Lakes (ZK) suspends operations

Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 6:32 am
by Varsity1
wedgetail737 wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Where can pilots without an ATP gain hours now in the USA?


Non-turbojet 135 doesn't have the same hour rules as TJet135 and 121 (1500). You can fly in the right seat of normal 135 at 500 hours and be a captain at 1200 hours.

Great lakes was literally just THAT bad. Flying super expensive B1900's doesn't help when your competition is flying Pc-12's with exactly half the fuel burn.


Had they bought PC-12's, ZK would still be here today.


Of course the PC-12's have exactly half of the fuel burn of the 1900's...the PC-12's have exactly half the engines of the 1900's. PC-12's have less than half of the passenger capacity as well.


ZK flies alot of their B1900's on the EAS routes sched 135 (9 seats).

Re: Great Lakes (ZK) suspends operations

Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 1:06 pm
by rajincajun01
Varsity1 wrote:
Great lakes was literally just THAT bad. Flying super expensive B1900's doesn't help when your competition is flying Pc-12's with exactly half the fuel burn.


Had they bought PC-12's, ZK would still be here today.


Very short sighted comment. Boutique Air has lost out on many of their EAS bids (especially from DEN) due to only having one engined aircraft. It’s not ideal in a mountainous area to many communities. Hence why they have invested in King Air 350s.

The other issue is weight limitations. GLA’s passengers often had heavier baggage items (ie skis and coolers) that the PC-12 is limited with.

GLA had its issues, but solely putting blame on not buying PC-12s wasn’t a sole decision that could have saved them.

Re: Great Lakes (ZK) suspends operations

Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 4:55 pm
by wedgetail737
Varsity1 wrote:
wedgetail737 wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:

Non-turbojet 135 doesn't have the same hour rules as TJet135 and 121 (1500). You can fly in the right seat of normal 135 at 500 hours and be a captain at 1200 hours.

Great lakes was literally just THAT bad. Flying super expensive B1900's doesn't help when your competition is flying Pc-12's with exactly half the fuel burn.


Had they bought PC-12's, ZK would still be here today.


Of course the PC-12's have exactly half of the fuel burn of the 1900's...the PC-12's have exactly half the engines of the 1900's. PC-12's have less than half of the passenger capacity as well.


ZK flies alot of their B1900's on the EAS routes sched 135 (9 seats).


ZK met their demise due to bad management and unreliable service...from what I have read.

Re: Great Lakes (ZK) suspends operations

Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 9:07 pm
by Varsity1
rajincajun01 wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
Great lakes was literally just THAT bad. Flying super expensive B1900's doesn't help when your competition is flying Pc-12's with exactly half the fuel burn.


Had they bought PC-12's, ZK would still be here today.


Very short sighted comment. Boutique Air has lost out on many of their EAS bids (especially from DEN) due to only having one engined aircraft. It’s not ideal in a mountainous area to many communities. Hence why they have invested in King Air 350s.

The other issue is weight limitations. GLA’s passengers often had heavier baggage items (ie skis and coolers) that the PC-12 is limited with.

GLA had its issues, but solely putting blame on not buying PC-12s wasn’t a sole decision that could have saved them.


:lol: uh, no bud. Try again!

Re: Great Lakes (ZK) suspends operations

Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:32 pm
by rajincajun01
Varsity1 wrote:
rajincajun01 wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
Great lakes was literally just THAT bad. Flying super expensive B1900's doesn't help when your competition is flying Pc-12's with exactly half the fuel burn.


Had they bought PC-12's, ZK would still be here today.


Very short sighted comment. Boutique Air has lost out on many of their EAS bids (especially from DEN) due to only having one engined aircraft. It’s not ideal in a mountainous area to many communities. Hence why they have invested in King Air 350s.

The other issue is weight limitations. GLA’s passengers often had heavier baggage items (ie skis and coolers) that the PC-12 is limited with.

GLA had its issues, but solely putting blame on not buying PC-12s wasn’t a sole decision that could have saved them.


:lol: uh, no bud. Try again!


Where are your facts then? Research what I stated and come back with an answer better than a 16 year old would give.

Re: Great Lakes (ZK) suspends operations

Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:43 pm
by bomber996
rajincajun01 wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
rajincajun01 wrote:

Very short sighted comment. Boutique Air has lost out on many of their EAS bids (especially from DEN) due to only having one engined aircraft. It’s not ideal in a mountainous area to many communities. Hence why they have invested in King Air 350s.

The other issue is weight limitations. GLA’s passengers often had heavier baggage items (ie skis and coolers) that the PC-12 is limited with.

GLA had its issues, but solely putting blame on not buying PC-12s wasn’t a sole decision that could have saved them.


:lol: uh, no bud. Try again!


Where are your facts then? Research what I stated and come back with an answer better than a 16 year old would give.


Great Lakes could have in no way afforded the PC-12. They could barely keep their fleet aloft as it was. None of their aircraft had GPS and at least the 1900s did not have autopilot. Air Traffic Control would constantly have to vector aircraft for shortcuts. If you cannot afford GPS, how could you afford a much newer aircraft? This not even considering the debt they defaulted on back in 2015.

http://www.kgwn.tv/home/headlines/Great ... 73861.html

They were doomed when they pulled 10 seats out of their 1900s. Only a matter of time once they did that.

Peace :box:

Re: Great Lakes (ZK) suspends operations

Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2018 12:27 am
by 32andBelow
bomber996 wrote:
rajincajun01 wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:

:lol: uh, no bud. Try again!


Where are your facts then? Research what I stated and come back with an answer better than a 16 year old would give.


Great Lakes could have in no way afforded the PC-12. They could barely keep their fleet aloft as it was. None of their aircraft had GPS and at least the 1900s did not have autopilot. Air Traffic Control would constantly have to vector aircraft for shortcuts. If you cannot afford GPS, how could you afford a much newer aircraft? This not even considering the debt they defaulted on back in 2015.

http://www.kgwn.tv/home/headlines/Great ... 73861.html

They were doomed when they pulled 10 seats out of their 1900s. Only a matter of time once they did that.

Peace :box:
What do the seats have to do with it? They were EAS routes that wouldn't fill a 19 seater anyways. They were bid as such and subsidized.

Re: Great Lakes (ZK) suspends operations

Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2018 12:51 am
by 32andBelow
RJNUT wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
bomber996 wrote:

Great Lakes could have in no way afforded the PC-12. They could barely keep their fleet aloft as it was. None of their aircraft had GPS and at least the 1900s did not have autopilot. Air Traffic Control would constantly have to vector aircraft for shortcuts. If you cannot afford GPS, how could you afford a much newer aircraft? This not even considering the debt they defaulted on back in 2015.

http://www.kgwn.tv/home/headlines/Great ... 73861.html

They were doomed when they pulled 10 seats out of their 1900s. Only a matter of time once they did that.

Peace :box:
What do the seats have to do with it? They were EAS routes that wouldn't fill a 19 seater anyways. They were bid as such and subsidized.

I assumed they pulled the seats in order to operate under PART 135 which had lowered pilot qualifications. Someone help me out there?!

Yah they did. But then they bid the EAS with 9 seat planes and asked for cost + 5% so really the seats had no effect either way.

Re: Great Lakes (ZK) suspends operations

Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2018 12:52 am
by RJNUT
32andBelow wrote:
bomber996 wrote:
rajincajun01 wrote:

Where are your facts then? Research what I stated and come back with an answer better than a 16 year old would give.


Great Lakes could have in no way afforded the PC-12. They could barely keep their fleet aloft as it was. None of their aircraft had GPS and at least the 1900s did not have autopilot. Air Traffic Control would constantly have to vector aircraft for shortcuts. If you cannot afford GPS, how could you afford a much newer aircraft? This not even considering the debt they defaulted on back in 2015.

http://www.kgwn.tv/home/headlines/Great ... 73861.html

They were doomed when they pulled 10 seats out of their 1900s. Only a matter of time once they did that.

Peace :box:
What do the seats have to do with it? They were EAS routes that wouldn't fill a 19 seater anyways. They were bid as such and subsidized.

I assumed they pulled the seats in order to operate under PART 135 which had lowered pilot qualifications. Someone help me out there?!

Re: Great Lakes (ZK) suspends operations

Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2018 1:10 am
by rajincajun01
RJNUT wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
bomber996 wrote:

Great Lakes could have in no way afforded the PC-12. They could barely keep their fleet aloft as it was. None of their aircraft had GPS and at least the 1900s did not have autopilot. Air Traffic Control would constantly have to vector aircraft for shortcuts. If you cannot afford GPS, how could you afford a much newer aircraft? This not even considering the debt they defaulted on back in 2015.

http://www.kgwn.tv/home/headlines/Great ... 73861.html

They were doomed when they pulled 10 seats out of their 1900s. Only a matter of time once they did that.

Peace :box:
What do the seats have to do with it? They were EAS routes that wouldn't fill a 19 seater anyways. They were bid as such and subsidized.

I assumed they pulled the seats in order to operate under PART 135 which had lowered pilot qualifications. Someone help me out there?!


You are correct.