The previous thread viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1386095&start=200 is locked so I had to start a new one.

In the old thread I had already speculated that HiFly has postponed its plans to add second hand A380s to their fleet. I am now wondering if they have even cancelled these plans.

Yesterday, member Godsbeloved had posted a link to HiFly‘s webpage. Neither in the news section nor in the jobs opportunities section there is mentioning of the A380. Remember, they said they would be flying the A380 by spring 2018 (source: http://onemileatatime.boardingarea.com/ ... 0-leasing/ )

So what do you think? Just a delay or have they cancelled their plans?

Perhaps they have filled the A380 positions already? I can imagine that a new A380 operator would have people from the established operators willing to jump through whatever hoops were necessary to join the operation and get them up and running using the institutional knowledge they have already. I would expect a fairly streamlined hiring process, as there would not be a shortage of candidates. These positions would be huge promotions for others who would never have the opportunity at the other operators... It's a lucrative career opportunity.

Siren wrote:

Perhaps they have filled the A380 positions already? I can imagine that a new A380 operator would have people from the established operators willing to jump through whatever hoops were necessary to join the operation and get them up and running using the institutional knowledge they have already. I would expect a fairly streamlined hiring process, as there would not be a shortage of candidates. These positions would be huge promotions for others who would never have the opportunity at the other operators... It's a lucrative career opportunity.

Possibly, but the reverse may hold true. Anybody with specialist knowledge of the A380 will be currently working for an established, pretty stable operator. While the new job title will sound good, it relies on HiFly's continuing success. If it fails, then there is no market for that knowledge. Also, I wonder whether the overall package as No 1 on HiFly's A380 operation is markedly better than No 3 at ,say, BA LH or even KA, where there is the opportunity to move up the greasy pole an another type.

airbazar wrote:

My rumor mill told me that the deal fell through because HiFly and Airbus couldn't agree on the maintenance terms. I seemed like HiFly was only willing to take the birds if Airbus agreed to be responsible to all the maintenance.

Ha! I know something was wrong... (provided your source is correct ... I have no doubt about that).

VolvoBus wrote:

Siren wrote:

It's a lucrative career opportunity.

Possibly, but the reverse may hold true. Anybody with specialist knowledge of the A380 will be currently working for an established, pretty stable operator. While the new job title will sound good, it relies on HiFly's continuing success. If it fails, then there is no market for that knowledge. Also, I wonder whether the overall package as No 1 on HiFly's A380 operation is markedly better than No 3 at ,say, BA LH or even KA, where there is the opportunity to move up the greasy pole an another type.

They had already started the recruitment process. Zeke had provided us wíth a link of a recruitment Consultant for the required A380 Captains & First Officers in the old thread: https://www.aeroprofessional.com/job/11 ... -Officers/
You can even still apply...

N14AZ wrote:

They had already started the recruitment process. Zeke had provided us wíth a link of a recruitment Consultant for the required A380 Captains & First Officers in the old thread: https://www.aeroprofessional.com/job/11 ... -Officers/
You can even still apply...

Trying to recruit people who already have 500/1000 hours on the type and an EASA A380 type rating has got to be tough.

Polot wrote:

N14AZ wrote:

They had already started the recruitment process. Zeke had provided us wíth a link of a recruitment Consultant for the required A380 Captains & First Officers in the old thread: https://www.aeroprofessional.com/job/11 ... -Officers/
You can even still apply...

Trying to recruit people who already have 500/1000 hours on the type and an EASA A380 type rating has got to be tough.

Basically has to be Europeans working in China, who want to move "home"...

MalevTU134 wrote:

Polot wrote:

N14AZ wrote:

They had already started the recruitment process. Zeke had provided us wíth a link of a recruitment Consultant for the required A380 Captains & First Officers in the old thread: https://www.aeroprofessional.com/job/11 ... -Officers/
You can even still apply...

Trying to recruit people who already have 500/1000 hours on the type and an EASA A380 type rating has got to be tough.

Basically has to be Europeans working in China, who want to move "home"...

Not China, Dubai. But with HiFly’s business model they will be away from “home” a lot. Basically looking for someone who wants a slower pace towards the end of their career I’m guessing. I’m not sure that fits many of EK’s pilots (the end of career part, most would probably welcome slower pace) and the A380 Euro legacy pilots are probably all mostly senior, living comfortably, and making tons of money especially compared to what HiFly probably pays.

Maybe they decided on A330-900 instead?
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1390111
LHRlocal

airbazar wrote:

It seemed like HiFly was only willing to take the birds if Airbus agreed to be responsible to all the maintenance.

Which is actually quite funny... when they announced their plans proudly last autumn, HiFly‘s CEO said in an interview that they had prepared themselves for introducing the A380 for two years. I wonder what cost they had considered in their financial model for maintenance... Or generally speaking, it seems strange to announce such a fleet expansion at a time when fundamental issues such as who is doing maintenance works have not yet been solved...

N14AZ
Armchair CEO

Polot wrote:

Basically looking for someone who wants a slower pace towards the end of their career I’m guessing. I’m not sure that fits many of EK’s pilots (the end of career part, most would probably welcome slower pace) and the A380 Euro legacy pilots are probably all mostly senior, living comfortably, and making tons of money especially compared to what HiFly probably pays.

You might be right about the "slower pace," but I'm not so sure it's a more relaxing job than working for a carrier like EK. If the A380s were going to be doing Hajj/Umrah charters, you'd be spending a bunch of time in KSA (not so much fun for ex-pats) as well as cities with less appeal to foreigners than Dubai (i.e. Lagos, Abuja, Islamabad, Khartoum, etc.)

Siren wrote:

Perhaps they have filled the A380 positions already? I can imagine that a new A380 operator would have people from the established operators willing to jump through whatever hoops were necessary to join the operation and get them up and running using the institutional knowledge they have already.

I suspect that if they were in an advanced enough stage of readiness that they had filled most or all A380-related positions, we'd see a lot more in the company's promotional materials (i.e. the web site).

What about this spanish article from february stating the Malta branch of Hi Fly will receive the 2 ex SIA A380?

http://fly-news.es/aviacion-comercial/a ... singapore/

HiFly just announced A330NEOs, so they cannot be on horrid terms with Airbus:

http://www.hifly.aero/en/welcoming-the- ... 00neo.html

Did they demand too much to purchase? I would love to know maintenance terms. If I were buying early A388s, I would demand a power by the hour maintenance contract with no risk. But that is just my opinion.

Lightsaber

l'espace180 wrote:

What about this spanish article from february stating the Malta branch of Hi Fly will receive the 2 ex SIA A380?

http://fly-news.es/aviacion-comercial/a ... singapore/

Dr. Peters Group, the owner of the two ex-SQ A380s stated in the middle of February 2018 that negotiations with HiFly have been put on ice
and that positions were a long way away from each other. Source: see link at the end of the previous thread

lightsaber wrote:

Did they demand too much to purchase? I would love to know maintenance terms. If I were buying early A388s, I would demand a power by the hour maintenance contract with no risk. But that is just my opinion.

Almost certainly wanted an 'on demand' power by the hour contract for engines and air frame, with very low minimum monthly hours. Contracts are subject to draconian confidentiality clauses, but would have an idea of what EK have negotiated.

N14AZ wrote:

l'espace180 wrote:

What about this spanish article from february stating the Malta branch of Hi Fly will receive the 2 ex SIA A380?

http://fly-news.es/aviacion-comercial/a ... singapore/

Dr. Peters Group, the owner of the two ex-SQ A380s stated in the middle of February 2018 that negotiations with HiFly have been put on ice
and that positions were a long way away from each other. Source: see link at the end of the previous thread

More parties involved, if early SQ aircraft are subject to Airbus buyback (they almost certainly are), in which case negotiations possibly continuing with Airbus and RR. HiFly enjoy a special relationship with Airbus.

Planesmart wrote:

Almost certainly wanted an 'on demand' power by the hour contract for engines and air frame, with very low minimum monthly hours. Contracts are subject to draconian confidentiality clauses, but would have an idea of what EK have negotiated.

Planesmart wrote:

More parties involved, if early SQ aircraft are subject to Airbus buyback (they almost certainly are), in which case negotiations possibly continuing with Airbus and RR. HiFly enjoy a special relationship with Airbus.

You have to imagine that even with the tight relationship between HiFly and Airbus, there's still a very delicate balancing act for Airbus and Rolls as well. Placing some of the early A380s would make financiers more confident in the program, which could potentially lead to further sales of new A380s if financing were available on terms comparable to segment-adjacent aircraft like the 777X and A350. However, even with strict confidentiality agreements, word tends to get around and one can easily imagine EK demanding at least comparable terms -- and that could be devastating to the spares business which is likely the only bright spot in the program for Airbus and the engine makers at present.

ScottB wrote:

Planesmart wrote:

Almost certainly wanted an 'on demand' power by the hour contract for engines and air frame, with very low minimum monthly hours. Contracts are subject to draconian confidentiality clauses, but would have an idea of what EK have negotiated.

Planesmart wrote:

More parties involved, if early SQ aircraft are subject to Airbus buyback (they almost certainly are), in which case negotiations possibly continuing with Airbus and RR. HiFly enjoy a special relationship with Airbus.

You have to imagine that even with the tight relationship between HiFly and Airbus, there's still a very delicate balancing act for Airbus and Rolls as well. Placing some of the early A380s would make financiers more confident in the program, which could potentially lead to further sales of new A380s if financing were available on terms comparable to segment-adjacent aircraft like the 777X and A350. However, even with strict confidentiality agreements, word tends to get around and one can easily imagine EK demanding at least comparable terms -- and that could be devastating to the spares business which is likely the only bright spot in the program for Airbus and the engine makers at present.

There is also the delicate balance act of wanting to prove there is a secondary market versus suggesting that a secondary market is only viable if outside parties (that is, not the operating airline) is bearing the brunt of the costs.

Airbus wants there to be an awakening where an airline shows how the A380 can be heavily popular if operated outside the current box and line of thinking by the legacies, so that more risk adverse customers would be sold on the idea. But hard to do so if the trial airline is not eating a lot of the traditional aircraft costs.

Polot wrote:

ScottB wrote:

Planesmart wrote:

Almost certainly wanted an 'on demand' power by the hour contract for engines and air frame, with very low minimum monthly hours. Contracts are subject to draconian confidentiality clauses, but would have an idea of what EK have negotiated.

Planesmart wrote:

More parties involved, if early SQ aircraft are subject to Airbus buyback (they almost certainly are), in which case negotiations possibly continuing with Airbus and RR. HiFly enjoy a special relationship with Airbus.

You have to imagine that even with the tight relationship between HiFly and Airbus, there's still a very delicate balancing act for Airbus and Rolls as well. Placing some of the early A380s would make financiers more confident in the program, which could potentially lead to further sales of new A380s if financing were available on terms comparable to segment-adjacent aircraft like the 777X and A350. However, even with strict confidentiality agreements, word tends to get around and one can easily imagine EK demanding at least comparable terms -- and that could be devastating to the spares business which is likely the only bright spot in the program for Airbus and the engine makers at present.

There is also the delicate balance act of wanting to prove there is a secondary market versus suggesting that a secondary market is only viable if outside parties (that is, not the operating airline) is bearing the brunt of the costs.

Airbus wants there to be an awakening where an airline shows how the A380 can be heavily popular if operated outside the current box and line of thinking by the legacies, so that more risk adverse customers would be sold on the idea. But hard to do so if the trial airline is not eating a lot of the traditional aircraft costs.

Awakening... Hard to to do when the one outside the box thinker used the plane to stuff hub waves at high demand cities.

For EK's top hub waves, how many A380s to/from LHR? IIRC 3, but by all means correct me.

The only outside the box not tried is using the A380 to fill some massive resort a la how Allegiant is building/selling shares in a resort in Florida to aid selling tickets. But how? Someone buys a secondary island of Fiji and puts in 5,000 units and an airport?

It is one thing for U2 to fill an A321 to a resort. It is another to have 300+ units available per flight.

No wonder Dubai promotes cruise lines. . But for every cabin, you need a hotel room for before the flight (approximately...).

Lightsaber

Considering HiFly currently have a fleet of eight aircraft, it was always going to be a big ask for an airline of this size to successfully purchase, refurbish and operate the A380.

I can only speculate that a third party airline was originally behind the deal. For instance an arms length relationship with Hi-Fly may have allowed for lower purchase and refurbishment costs, whilst at the same time given an airline the flexibility to operate the aircraft on a seasonal or on demand basis. Airlines like BA who have already expressed an interest in second hand A380's comes to mind.

So, if my speculation is correct, there would have been quite a few bridges to cross to make this deal work.

ScottB wrote:

Planesmart wrote:

Almost certainly wanted an 'on demand' power by the hour contract for engines and air frame, with very low minimum monthly hours. Contracts are subject to draconian confidentiality clauses, but would have an idea of what EK have negotiated.

However, even with strict confidentiality agreements, word tends to get around and one can easily imagine EK demanding at least comparable terms -- and that could be devastating to the spares business which is likely the only bright spot in the program for Airbus and the engine makers at present.

EK already has the industry leading deal. My reference was to HiFly after something comparable to EK, not the reverse.

RR offers engine lease and maintenance by the hour, with guaranteed time frames for replacement engines and parts. Could Airbus be poised to replicate for air frames, what is already done for engines, with HiFly being part of the equation?

This 22 March 2018 NZ Herald article says Hi Fly are getting two ex SQ A380s this year. Grant Bradley interviewed Hi-Fly founder Paulo Mirpuri who was in AKL for the Volvo Ocean Race.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news ... d=12016316

The A340s being used from Auckland are old by global standards, and problems with in-flight entertainment have led to complaints, but they will be phased out as the airline adds new planes, starting with two A330-200s in the middle of the year and the first of 10 A330-900neos next year.

This year the airline is also getting two Airbus A380 superjumbos, the first ex-Singapore Airlines planes.

PA515

PA515 wrote:

This 22 March 2018 NZ Herald article says Hi Fly are getting two ex SQ A380s this year. Grant Bradley interviewed Hi-Fly founder Paulo Mirpuri who was in AKL for the Volvo Ocean Race.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news ... d=12016316

Thanks for the link and this new source. However - yes, you can call me an all-time sceptical-half-glass-empty-guy - as you wrote correctly THE ARTICLE says they are getting two A380s. But from reading it, it seems to me that this was just an information the editor added from his knowledge, most probably as a result of an internet research.

There is (another) mistake in that article:

Hi Fly now has 20 wide-body aircraft [...].

According to their own Webpage they just have 11 aircraft.

So the jury is still out what happened. Either they are still negotiating (e.g. waiting until Dr. Peters calls with a better rate, i.e. lower rate) or they cancelled their plans.
What is certain is that they are not going to operate any A380 in "spring 2018"... well, seems as if this winter doesn't want to end anyway, maybe that's the explanation...

travelhound wrote:

Considering HiFly currently have a fleet of eight aircraft, it was always going to be a big ask for an airline of this size to successfully purchase, refurbish and operate the A380.

I agree it is quite a challenge for such a small and relatively young airline to add A380s, but I got severely ridiculed for saying so in the original thread talking about Hi Fly getting A380s:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1386095&start=200

Perhaps the A330neo is a better investment for them

The problem with the number of airplains owned by Hy Fly is, that not all frames owened are also registered at Hy Fly. I assume the website is talking about frames available for leasing.
Register for Hy Fly shows at the moment 8 frames, but there are 3 frames being returned that were registered elsewhere, so that would make 11.
Hy Fly Malta has 7 registered frames.

So frames currently owned by Hy Fly could be 18 and there could be this and that owned frame that is leased out long term and registered elsewhere.

Latest news (behind paywall) in ch-aviation says:
Portugal's Hi Fly to add maiden A380 in 2Q18
https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... 80-in-2q18
Seems they will get A380s after all? If so, it must be to operate for some customer(s) already found, just as they said initially.
I don't think the order for A330neos has anything to do with taking some A380s or not, that order is aimed for replacing the current A330/340 fleet and the aircraft must come out of some lessor's order list.

LXwing wrote:

Latest news (behind paywall) in ch-aviation says:
Portugal's Hi Fly to add maiden A380 in 2Q18
https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... 80-in-2q18
Seems they will get A380s after all? If so, it must be to operate for some customer(s) already found, just as they said initially.
I don't think the order for A330neos has anything to do with taking some A380s or not, that order is aimed for replacing the current A330/340 fleet and the aircraft must come out of some lessor's order list.

While I hope this is true, ch-aviation isn't the same as a press release from HiFly, the leasing company, Airbus, RR, or even a tire vendor.

While possible, I think there would be some other source. This is possible, but I'll be skeptical until there is another source. For A380s and ten A339s seems like too much of a change in business strategy.

Lightsaber

According to a report in portuguese media (presumably based on the ch-aviation news), 9V-SKA (MSN003) will be delivered in June and 9V-SKB (MSN005) later this year. So the deal with Dr. Peters should have a happy ending after all.
Source (only in portuguese): http://www.presstur.com/empresas---nego ... rbus-a380/

Time to update the title of the topic, to a "maybe"?

We now have another source, aerotelegraph had an interview with HiFly‘s CEO and he confirmed they will take over their first A380 in June. He is not willing to share more details, obviously due to on-going negotiations...: https://www.aerotelegraph.com/hi-fly-be ... f-a330-neo

Jayafe wrote:

Time to update the title of the topic, to a "maybe"?

To my defense: I had placed a question mark behind the thread title.

N14AZ wrote:

We now have another source, aerotelegraph had an interview with HiFly‘s CEO and he confirmed they will take over their first A380 in June. He is not willing to share more details, obviously due to on-going negotiations...: https://www.aerotelegraph.com/hi-fly-be ... f-a330-neo

Jayafe wrote:

Time to update the title of the topic, to a "maybe"?

To my defense: I had placed a question mark behind the thread title.

Well, told y´all in the related SQ (A380/SKA) retirement thread, 5K are everything, but not stupid! The only thing I don´t have a clue on is who they will operate them for, that still baffles me

HiFly just tweeted this

Hi Fly is taking delivery of its first Airbus A380, the world’s largest and most spacious airliner. The arrival is a major event for the Company, making it the 1st Portuguese and the 4th European airline operating the model. #Hifly #hiflyairline #a380

https://twitter.com/hifly_airline/statu ... 8619290624

With that European tail Paul Stoddard might be involved. Atconexstagexhe had an arrangement with BA to covervtgeircexcess flying with his old 747-200's

Looks like they will keep the SQ cabin interior

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ar-447342/

The carrier says the first Rolls-Royce Trent 900-powered aircraft will arrive in mid-2018 and will be operated "worldwide", with a 471-seat configuration.

This includes 399 seats on the main deck with 60 business-class and 12 first-class seats on the upper deck – the configuration used by Singapore Airlines, which started withdrawing its older A380s last year.

juliuswong wrote:

I am surprised SQ didn't rip out the interior like what they usually does when they retire/return aircraft to lessor.

Maybe it was worn out (for SQ's standards)

I am surprised SQ didn't rip out the interior like what they usually does when they retire/return aircraft to lessor.

Interesting development, thank you all for your links.
So after all, it was just a delay, most probably caused by intensive negotiations with all partners involved.

Will be interesting to learn the leasing rate they managed to get. Dr. Peters will have to inform the shareholders of the related funds for MSN 003 and 005 and I guess sooner or later we will have some information.

If you want the title changed report the post to the moderators using the "!" icon on the top right of said post.

Can we please change the thread title? HiFly just announced on Twitter that they are taking A380s. The NOT in the title is no longer appropriate. Perhaps it never was...

https://twitter.com/hifly_airline?lang=de

Does all this now not fit together somehow? Was the (330) NEO commitment somehow linked to this deal actually coming together (Power by the hour for the 380??) . Again, Hifly are not as stupid as many people think and the dear ´German Doctor´ had few - if any options. I also doubt Airbus liked the idea of these frames enjoying the spanish sunshine (even if that means biting a few uncomfortable bullets....) . Good on 5K, I think they pulled of something very clever here, but my question remains, who will they operate these for??

cougar15 wrote:

Momo1435 wrote:

Just open a new thread.

or get the title changed on this one, all it takes is ´IS rather than NOT´ and we have a thread with background to build upon!

This thread doesn't have too much background, and was based on info that didn't turn out to be correct. If it was the original thread that was already locked there would have more background and more relevant discussion. And it's also confusing that the info in the 1st post doesn't correspond with the new info that has just come out.

A new thread would have been the best option in this case.

Congrats to HiFly on this historical achievement!!!! I assume that A380 will be flying for one airline for a longer period instead of doing only occasional flight for more airlines when they need it? TUI Netherlands occasionally uses HiFly aircraft when their own aircraft are AOG or not available for whatever reason. I assume the A380 won't be available for such one-off flights?

A388

Fantastic news for A380 program, hopefully it can keep up the momentum when more second hand frames became available.

well, now on flight global too

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/airlines/

cougar15 wrote:

Does all this now not fit together somehow? Was the (330) NEO commitment somehow linked to this deal actually coming together (Power by the hour for the 380??) . Again, Hifly are not as stupid as many people think and the dear ´German Doctor´ had few - if any options. I also doubt Airbus liked the idea of these frames enjoying the spanish sunshine (even if that means biting a few uncomfortable bullets....) . Good on 5K, I think they pulled of something very clever here, but my question remains, who will they operate these for??

The A330neo order has nothing to do with the leasing of a couple of A380. The former are to replace their current A330/340 fleet, while the latter are for new/additional services. I'm convinced they already have agreements with the necessary customers to operate the A380 for.

Congrats to HiFly on this historical achievement!!!! I assume that A380 will be flying for one airline for a longer period instead of doing only occasional flight for more airlines when they need it? TUI Netherlands occasionally uses HiFly aircraft when their own aircraft are AOG or not available for whatever reason. I assume the A380 won't be available for such one-off flights?

A388

Someone83 wrote:

Looks like they will keep the SQ cabin interior

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ar-447342/

The carrier says the first Rolls-Royce Trent 900-powered aircraft will arrive in mid-2018 and will be operated "worldwide", with a 471-seat configuration.

This includes 399 seats on the main deck with 60 business-class and 12 first-class seats on the upper deck – the configuration used by Singapore Airlines, which started withdrawing its older A380s last year.

That's very typical for Hi Fly to do---every plane they have is configured either in the livery of its previous operator, or if acquired firsthand, in the configuration of the operator intended to take it up but not doing so.

As for how this actually ends up looking, I'm expecting all white unless it's in a special livery as CS-TQW is now, or as 9H-TQM (ex-CS-TQM) was before being retired.

A330freak wrote:

HiFly just tweeted this

Hi Fly is taking delivery of its first Airbus A380, the world’s largest and most spacious airliner. The arrival is a major event for the Company, making it the 1st Portuguese and the 4th European airline operating the model. #Hifly #hiflyairline #a380

https://twitter.com/hifly_airline/statu ... 8619290624

What's with the livery?

RalXWB wrote:

Can we please change the thread title? HiFly just announced on Twitter that they are taking A380s. The NOT in the title is no longer appropriate. Perhaps it never was...

Title has been changed. But tell me, what exactly was inappropriate when asking “So what do you think? Just a delay or have they cancelled their plans?”
Remember, in mid-February 2018 Dr. Peters had officially noted that negotiations with HiFly have been put on ice.`

There was a reason why I asked this question by starting this thread (I would have preferred to continue in the previous thread but it was locked, as I wrote above). Can you imagine the implications if Dr. Peters would not have found a new customer?

lightsaber wrote:

Polot wrote:

Airbus wants there to be an awakening where an airline shows how the A380 can be heavily popular if operated outside the current box and line of thinking by the legacies, so that more risk adverse customers would be sold on the idea. But hard to do so if the trial airline is not eating a lot of the traditional aircraft costs.

Awakening...

So the awakening starts....