Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
IndianicWorld
Posts: 3404
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2001 11:32 am

Re: Possibility of Lufthansa Group returning to Australasia?

Sun Apr 01, 2018 12:13 pm

The only way that I can realistically see LH come back to Australia is with a non-stop flight.

This is also the case for TK, as trying to fly a 1-stop just comes up against endless other options that lead to a yield nightmare.

The non-stop flight from Europe to Australia would essentially provide a significant competitive advantage that none of the ME3 or the Asian carriers can offer. That it not to say that PER would be a good option just because it is closest, as the main strength would be from the East Coast, especially as LH would not have a partner carrier in Australia to provide feed.

The reality is that we will be waiting a while until LH can be seen flying to this country.
 
User avatar
eta unknown
Posts: 2905
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2001 5:03 am

Re: Possibility of Lufthansa Group returning to Australasia?

Sun Apr 01, 2018 12:32 pm

"I remember that I was in Sydney a few years back and I saw a Lufthansa Group office in the CBD."
It's been the Munich Re building for a few years now. FYI there was actually a dispute between LH and the landlord- eventually LH decided to remove the signage due to a huge increase in third party insurance premiums.

"For a while until recently, LH had a Lufthansa Intouch office in MEL. That was probably the only direct presence the group had in Australia. Lufthansa Technik also had a JV with QF via LTQ maintenance, until QF decided to close it."
LH has a GSA operation in Australia now, but about 3 finance staff are still on the LH payroll. There's also a rep office for their travel agent payment card system nextdoor.

Re all the Australian companies in Germany and German companies in Australia. How many are based in PER or FRA (note: BMW is Munich, not FRA)? Why would a company in SYD/MEL be induced to fly via PER at a premium when they can get cheaper via Asia or ME?
 
IndianicWorld
Posts: 3404
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2001 11:32 am

Re: Possibility of Lufthansa Group returning to Australasia?

Sun Apr 01, 2018 12:43 pm

eta unknown wrote:
"I remember that I was in Sydney a few years back and I saw a Lufthansa Group office in the CBD."
It's been the Munich Re building for a few years now. FYI there was actually a dispute between LH and the landlord- eventually LH decided to remove the signage due to a huge increase in third party insurance premiums.

"For a while until recently, LH had a Lufthansa Intouch office in MEL. That was probably the only direct presence the group had in Australia. Lufthansa Technik also had a JV with QF via LTQ maintenance, until QF decided to close it."
LH has a GSA operation in Australia now, but about 3 finance staff are still on the LH payroll. There's also a rep office for their travel agent payment card system nextdoor.

Re all the Australian companies in Germany and German companies in Australia. How many are based in PER or FRA (note: BMW is Munich, not FRA)? Why would a company in SYD/MEL be induced to fly via PER at a premium when they can get cheaper via Asia or ME?


Good info there.

The amount of competition certainly makes it ever more important that it can deliver non-stop flights if it ever did come back as an online market.

As an offline market, it is tapping into code shares and partnerships to deliver a presence, but coming back with their own metal will be an interesting future possibility.

The reality is that airlines like LH, TK, BA, AF, or KL may well have the possibility to return as technology develops that makes ULH flying more viable on routes like Europe-Australia.

QF will have a fight on their hands down the track even if it gets its Project Sunrise requirements met and launches its SYD/MEL-LHR routes. It may have a strong market point of difference for a while, but it may well see the re-birth of the European carriers in Australian skies down the track with those same advances in aviation technology. Isn’t competition a beautiful thing? :)
 
User avatar
JBusworth
Posts: 183
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2017 8:55 am

Re: Possibility of Lufthansa Group returning to Australasia?

Sun Apr 01, 2018 1:01 pm

zkncj wrote:

Think it would be more likely to see AKL-PER-FRA by NZ, than an QF PER-FRA. NZ will have much more feed ex-FRA with being able to hock into LH's network.

If anything an NZ/LH JV on AKL-PER-FRA with NZ ops AKL-PER and LH on PER-FRA could be an option.


I don't think we will be seeing NZ doing any Fifth Freedom flights out of Oz anytime soon. QF and others would be sure to kick up a fuss and get any approvals blocked.
 
User avatar
EK413
Posts: 5593
Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2003 3:11 pm

Re: Possibility of Lufthansa Group returning to Australasia?

Sun Apr 01, 2018 1:16 pm

qf789 wrote:
EK413 wrote:
KL once served AMS-KUL-SYD & now code-share on MH. I can’t remember the year KL pulled out of SYD?

EK413


The last KL flight from SYD was on the 23 March 2001, presumably that was the end of the NW schedule for that year. Flight operated as KL843 as SYD-SIN-AMS, 744 PH-BFI CIty of Jakarta operated the last flight



Cheers for the correction, via KUL was OS.

EK413
Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
 
ltbewr
Posts: 15468
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

Re: Possibility of Lufthansa Group returning to Australasia?

Sun Apr 01, 2018 1:22 pm

The rise of the ME3 and Asian based carriers with relatively cheaper, better quality 1-stop service, the huge distances, relatively small and flat growth market, high overhead costs for operations, the limited amount of premium pax already taken by BA and QF/NZ, all works against the chance of EC based major carriers to Australia and NZ.
 
User avatar
RyanairGuru
Posts: 8509
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:59 am

Re: Possibility of Lufthansa Group returning to Australasia?

Sun Apr 01, 2018 1:37 pm

InnsbruckFlyer wrote:
I remember that I was in Sydney a few years back and I saw a Lufthansa Group office in the CBD.


Lufthansa have a pretty large sales team in Australia, at least large for a market they don’t fly to. I really don’t know why, but Australia is an important market for them, but as a source on interline feed. They won’t fly here again.

Just going off the top of my head, and no doubt I’m missing some, LH Australia-Europe fares interline with the following airlines between their Asian ports and Australia: SQ, TG, CX, QF, AI, BA, OZ, NH and CA. LX also interline with MU but LH don’t. Going by nothing but personal observation, SQ and QF seem to take the largest portion of Lufthansa traffic.
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
ZK-NBT
Posts: 7606
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2000 5:42 pm

Re: Possibility of Lufthansa Group returning to Australasia?

Sun Apr 01, 2018 6:06 pm

JBusworth wrote:
zkncj wrote:

Think it would be more likely to see AKL-PER-FRA by NZ, than an QF PER-FRA. NZ will have much more feed ex-FRA with being able to hock into LH's network.

If anything an NZ/LH JV on AKL-PER-FRA with NZ ops AKL-PER and LH on PER-FRA could be an option.


I don't think we will be seeing NZ doing any Fifth Freedom flights out of Oz anytime soon. QF and others would be sure to kick up a fuss and get any approvals blocked.


You won’t see NZ doing any fifth freedoms out of O because it doesn’t fit their business model.

However NZ-Australia have open skies, NZ could fly anywhere if they wished and QF couldn’t do a thing about it.
 
User avatar
XAM2175
Posts: 1156
Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2014 2:25 pm

Re: Possibility of Lufthansa Group returning to Australasia?

Sun Apr 01, 2018 6:41 pm

ZK-NBT wrote:
JBusworth wrote:
I don't think we will be seeing NZ doing any Fifth Freedom flights out of Oz anytime soon. QF and others would be sure to kick up a fuss and get any approvals blocked.

... However NZ-Australia have open skies, NZ could fly anywhere if they wished and QF couldn’t do a thing about it.


Indeed - the Australia-NZ bilateral grants unlimited capacity and frequency to NZ-designated airlines on the following routes:

A. Routes for the airline or airlines designated by the Government of New Zealand:
1. From points behind New Zealand via New Zealand, and any intermediate point(s), to any point(s) in Australia, and beyond.
2. For all-cargo services, between Australia and any point or points.


Or, in short, from anywhere, to anywhere :p
 
zkncj
Posts: 3987
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2005 4:57 pm

Re: Possibility of Lufthansa Group returning to Australasia?

Sun Apr 01, 2018 7:19 pm

[quote="ZK-NBT"

You won’t see NZ doing any fifth freedoms out of O because it doesn’t fit their business model.

However NZ-Australia have open skies, NZ could fly anywhere if they wished and QF couldn’t do a thing about it.[/quote]

That being said - an few years back IAH and ORD wouldn't have been within NZ's business model, as time changes smart business change it business model to keep moving forward.

NZ has recently invested in an new Lounge in PER, which is overkill for 1-2 daily flights ex-PER. It shows that that is must be 'future' growth they can see from the Perth market to help reason the need for an Lounge, they could of still kept using an contract lounge.
 
ZK-NBT
Posts: 7606
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2000 5:42 pm

Re: Possibility of Lufthansa Group returning to Australasia?

Sun Apr 01, 2018 7:50 pm

zkncj wrote:
[quote="ZK-NBT"

You won’t see NZ doing any fifth freedoms out of O because it doesn’t fit their business model.

However NZ-Australia have open skies, NZ could fly anywhere if they wished and QF couldn’t do a thing about it.


That being said - an few years back IAH and ORD wouldn't have been within NZ's business model, as time changes smart business change it business model to keep moving forward.

NZ has recently invested in an new Lounge in PER, which is overkill for 1-2 daily flights ex-PER. It shows that that is must be 'future' growth they can see from the Perth market to help reason the need for an Lounge, they could of still kept using an contract lounge.[/quote]


ORD has in the background plans for years, now they have an aircraft that can do it from AKL nonstop, the 772 was looked at but couldn’t do it. Probably would have come before IAH.

Absolutely the business model does get tweaked, currently it’s now waiting for next generation A350/77X to do GRU/EWR from AKL non stop.

The PER lounge, no idea really what they will do? Allow other carriers to use it I guess? It’s about giving customers a good experience. They have redone several Australian lounges and elsewhere.
 
User avatar
LOWS
Posts: 1335
Joined: Sun Oct 23, 2011 5:37 am

Re: Possibility of Lufthansa Group returning to Australasia?

Sun Apr 01, 2018 8:12 pm

RyanairGuru wrote:
InnsbruckFlyer wrote:
I remember that I was in Sydney a few years back and I saw a Lufthansa Group office in the CBD.


Lufthansa have a pretty large sales team in Australia, at least large for a market they don’t fly to. I really don’t know why, but Australia is an important market for them, but as a source on interline feed. They won’t fly here again.

Just going off the top of my head, and no doubt I’m missing some, LH Australia-Europe fares interline with the following airlines between their Asian ports and Australia: SQ, TG, CX, QF, AI, BA, OZ, NH and CA. LX also interline with MU but LH don’t. Going by nothing but personal observation, SQ and QF seem to take the largest portion of Lufthansa traffic.


Doesn't LH group have a JV with SQ that covers EU-Australia?
 
c7aero
Posts: 15
Joined: Mon Aug 12, 2013 1:35 am

Re: Possible Lufthansa Group Return to Australasia?

Sun Apr 01, 2018 8:58 pm

InnsbruckFlyer wrote:
JamesCousins wrote:
InnsbruckFlyer wrote:
Just wondering if we might see the Lufthansa Group return to Australia/NZ in the coming years, and if so when. Any thoughts?

InnsbruckFlyer


I wouldn't write anything off with the big EU airline groups, but Asia & India seem to be huge areas for growth at the moment, so I'd find them less surprising. Some context in your original post about Lufthansa's history in Australasia would be appreciated too btw :)


Here is some info of LH's former flights to Australia (source: routesonline.com):

1969 May
LH690 Frankfurt-Athens-Karachi-Bangkok-Singapore-Sydney
LH691 Sydney-Singapore-Bangkok-Karachi-Athens-Frankfurt
known as one of most profitable LH route at the time
1 weekly 707

1974 Mar
LH690 Frankfurt-Karachi-Bangkok-Singapore-Sydney
LH691 Sydney-Singapore-Bangkok-Karachi-Frankfurt
1 weekly 707

LH692 Frankfurt-Athens-Bombay-Bangkok-Singapore-Sydney
LH693 Sydney-Singapore-Bangkok-Bombay-Athens-Frankfurt
1 weekly 707

LH694 Frankfurt-Karachi-Bombay-Bangkok-Singapore-Jakarta-Sydney
LH695 Sydney-Jakarta-Singapore-Bangkok-Bombay-Karachi-Frankfurt
1 weekly 707

1974 Apr
LH690 Frankfurt-Bombay-Singapore-Jakarta-Sydney
LH691 Sydney-Singapore-Bombay-Frankfurt
1 weekly DC10

LH692 Frankfurt-Bombay-Singapore-Sydney
LH693 Sydney-Jakarta-Singapore-Bombay-Frankfurt
1 weekly DC10

LH694 Frankfurt-Bombay-Singapore-Sydney
LH695 Sydney-Singapore-Bombay-Frankfurt
1 weekly DC10

1979 Oct
LH690 Frankfurt-Bombay-Singapore-Jakarta-Sydney
LH691 Sydney-Jakarta-Singapore-Bombay-Frankfurt
2 weekly 747

LH692 Frankfurt-Bombay-Singapore-Melbourne-Sydney
LH693 Sydney-Melbourne-Singapore-Bombay-Frankfurt
1 weekly 747

1982 Nov
LH690 Frankfurt-Dubai-Kuala Lumpur-Melbourne-Sydney
LH691 Sydney-Melbourne-Kuala Lumpur-Dubai-Frankfurt
2 weekly 747. 3rd weekly from Dec

1985 Jul
LH690 Frankfurt-Dubai-Kuala Lumpur-Melbourne-Sydney
LH691 Sydney-Melbourne-Kuala Lumpur-Dubai-Frankfurt
2 weekly 747COMBI

1989 Oct
LH786 Frankfurt-Dubai-Kuala Lumpur-Melbourne-Sydney
LH787 Sydney-Melbourne-Kuala Lumpur-Dubai-Frankfurt
1 weekly 747COMBI
Dubai stopover stopped from DEC

LH788 Frankfurt-Abu Dhabi-Singapore-Melbourne-Sydney
LH789 Sydney-Melbourne-Singapore-Abu Dhabi-Frankfurt
1 weekly 747
Abu Dhabi stopover stopped from DEC

LH796 Frankfurt-Bangkok-Sydney
LH797 Sydney-Bangkok-Frankfurt
2 weekly 747

1991 Feb
LH786 FRA-KUL-MEL-SYD
LH787 SYD-MEL-KUL-FRA
1 weekly 747-400COMBI

LH788 FRA-SIN-MEL-SYD
LH789 SYD-MEL-SIN-FRA
1 weekly 747-400COMBI

LH796 FRA-BKK-SYD
LH797 SYD-BKK-FRA
1 weekly 747-400

LH798 FRA-BKK-MEL-SYD
LH799 SYD-MEL-BKK-FRA
1 weekly 747-400

1994 Feb
LH796 FRA-BKK-SYD
LH797 SYD-BKK-FRA
1 weekly 747

LH788 FRA-SIN-MEL-SYD
LH789 SYD-MEL-SIN-FRA
2 weekly 747



In 1995, LH flew FRA-BKK-SYD 3 weekly 767-300
Lifetime miles flown so far: + – 3.2 million.
Airports in 2018 in cron order: BON CUR AUA MIA SCL JFK LHR HEL BKK HKT DEL IXM MAA VNS HJR UDR BOM IXU LIM MEX FLL ORD ZCO PUQ PMC DFW SNA SEA DUS RTM LCY DUB LGA EZE IGR AEP GRU MAD ARN GOT BRU CGN STN SNN
 
ZEDZAG
Posts: 116
Joined: Mon May 21, 2012 3:09 pm

Re: Possibility of Lufthansa Group returning to Australasia?

Wed Apr 04, 2018 5:04 pm

melpax wrote:
planemanofnz wrote:
eta unknown wrote:
The QF 789's are configured premium heavy so I think a PER-FRA option is a wet dream.



A PER-FRA would work, but a MEL-FRA could also be a winner once possible.

Melbourne is home to the Australian HQ's for BMW, Mercedes, Siemens & Bosch, among others. These 4 companies alone run substantial operations here, Allianz also has a decent presence in Melbourne. So there would be the premium demand for a non-stop FRA flight in both directions.


All these companies that you mentioned are large, and if LH has corporate agreements with those, then there would be some business case for the flight, but not from FRA, but from MUC, and top two reasons for that is: lot less backtracking, and all of thesse companies are based in southern germany (as MUC is)

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos