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IndianicWorld
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2018

Mon Apr 23, 2018 11:46 am

waoz1 wrote:
IndianicWorld wrote:
waoz1 wrote:

The WA economy has bottomed out and is on the up.
Mining sector is up, Chevron just announced phase 2 worth around $5 billion. Which is just the start....
This cut is for 3 months and then back to normal.

Its got more to do with WA not doing much tourism promotion over the last few years. The new government is trying to reverse that. Which is what the article is eluding too.


As has been discussed previously in this thread, WA will always be disadvantaged in some markets, particularly those who like to combine itineraries with multiple cities. It’s location makes that difficult to achieve.

Tourism wise, WA has some good attractions but PER itself has a long way to go to be a tourism destination of any note.

Like it or not, Sydney gets the lions share of the tourism fovus, which makes most journeys include that city and usually a couple more. That’s why the East Coast tends to be a stronger tourism market, which will likely still be the case with any significant WA investment in marketing.

As for mining, it is not predicted to reach the heights it was at again for some time to come, which was the time that WA really saw its fortunes prosper. There will be some upswing, but don’t expect anything too spectacular based on most industry analysis.


Unless your involved in WA business i wouldnt be making sweeping statements shows how little know about the WA economy. Ofcourse sydney will get more of the market. Good luck to them, we know Perth will not compete and is at a disadvantage due to location.

And as it says this is a 3 month drop, people are losing their minds over nothing.


Given I have been over there a few times in the last 3 months, in a role that works with multiple businesses nationwide every day (across many industry sectors in a consulting role), those weren’t sweeping statements.

The reality is that it is commonly understood business analysis data that builds that view, especially around the need for a more diversified economic base.

Sorry if what you read doesn’t sit well, but to suggest people don’t know what’s going on there just because they aren’t based there is misguided, and may be a seeeping statement in itself :)

Back on the topic, the reality that people have pointed out is the relative weakness of the WA market into China. It just hasn’t seen significant momentum in the years of CZ’s operation, but no one is losing their minds over anything.
Last edited by IndianicWorld on Mon Apr 23, 2018 11:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
planemanofnz
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2018

Mon Apr 23, 2018 11:49 am

waoz1 wrote:
CZ dropping from 5 to 4 for one month and from 4 to 3 for two months then back up to 5.
Has nothing to do with a unemployment rate from last month.

As CZ said itself, it's not happy with PER's performance (see my post above) - part of this performance is attributable to weak out-bound demand, given the state of WA's economy, of which unemployment is one indicator.

For a city of PER's size and industry, and with PER's level of competition (i.e. none to China), it should not still be at a 3x - 5x weekly frequency after all these years - regionally, smaller cities like AKL get a much greater service.

Cheers,

C.
 
waoz1
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2018

Mon Apr 23, 2018 11:52 am

planemanofnz wrote:
waoz1 wrote:

Eh, that's a forecast into the future which hasn't occurred yet, whereas the unemployment figures are actual and fact.

Separately, read your article - it says: "most West Australians will still go financially backwards until 2020." Pretty bad.

Cheers,

C.


CZ dropping from 5 to 4 for one month and from 4 to 3 for two months then back up to 5.
Has nothing to do with a unemployment rate from last month.
 
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qf789
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2018

Mon Apr 23, 2018 11:53 am

planemanofnz wrote:
waoz1 wrote:
The WA economy has bottomed out and is on the up.

On some indicators like GDP, perhaps, but certainly not on others - WA's unemployment rate (arguably more relevant here than GDP) in March was the highest it has been in 16 years. That has all sorts of implications for WA-originating traffic.

See, for example: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-04-19/w ... gh/9676932.

Cheers,

C.


This is only one month, lets not get too carried away. In previous months it has been lower.

Additionally for March PER passenger numbers grew 3.8%

Domestic up 3.7%
International up by 4.1%

https://blueswandaily.com/perth-airport ... -mar-2018/
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mh124
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2018

Mon Apr 23, 2018 12:43 pm

planemanofnz wrote:
waoz1 wrote:
CZ dropping from 5 to 4 for one month and from 4 to 3 for two months then back up to 5.
Has nothing to do with a unemployment rate from last month.

As CZ said itself, it's not happy with PER's performance (see my post above) - part of this performance is attributable to weak out-bound demand, given the state of WA's economy, of which unemployment is one indicator.

For a city of PER's size and industry, and with PER's level of competition (i.e. none to China), it should not still be at a 3x - 5x weekly frequency after all these years - regionally, smaller cities like AKL get a much greater service.

Cheers,

C.


Saying Auckland is smaller than Perth is kind of misleading. Yes Perth has more people, but Auckland is the financial centre for the entire New Zealand economy. Looking at it another way - Auckland has 200 000 more people than Adelaide (about 15% more) but 19 million passengers vs Adelaide's 8 million. These comparisons are not helpful.
And using one off monthly seasonally adjusted data is not helpful at all. The increase in unemployment was due to more people actively seeking work (in Australia, if you're not actually looking for work you are not technically unemployed - you just kind of disappear off the system - I know that's kind of weird). Western Australia has very high participation rates, that is, it has more people who are either employed or actively looking for work and less people who sit around at home not doing either of those two things (possibly because it has a youngish population). Overall employed numbers increased, though full time employment dropped, so lets agree that it's kind of a mixed picture.

For what its worth - it appears CZ has already reduced ADL to 3 weekly, it just didn't get an announcement.
 
planemanofnz
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2018

Mon Apr 23, 2018 12:48 pm

mh124 wrote:
Yes Perth has more people, but Auckland is the financial centre for the entire New Zealand economy.

Eh, PER is the gateway to the WA economy, which is virtually the same size as the New Zealand economy, to which AKL is the gateway to.

See: https://www.domain.com.au/money-markets ... 29-h0onmo/.

I do appreciate that comparisons to ADL, AKL or elsewhere are difficult though..

Cheers,

C.
 
eamondzhang
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2018

Mon Apr 23, 2018 1:32 pm

waoz1 wrote:
Gemuser wrote:
Kashmon wrote:
Cathay would go 3 daily to PER but the Australian Government and QF won't allow it.

I believe they go 2 daily for part of the year, or used to be able to....

How about a bit of accuracy rather than mud slinging? QF has no input into the decision to allow/not allow foreign airline services in to Australia, apart from the usual lobbying of the government that ALL companies do.
As well the Australian government cannot disallow services by foreign airlines *IF* the proposal is within the current Air Service Agreement. Therefore I presume that CX is maxed out to PER under the ASA, if they want more access it will require negotiations between the Australian & Hong Kong governments, which would probably result, in return, for more access to HKG by Australian airlines, which I doubt CX would like.

Gemuser



When you think about it, if an airline wants to increase flights its a benefit to Australia in the form of tourism/trade and jobs.
If Qantas isn't interested then why not allow others to do so.

Just seems a tad crazy we are so restrictive with things.

For Hong Kong - Australia service my understanding is that QF has absolutely no input on the government's bilateral negotiation with HKSAR. I read here in an older Australian Aviation Thread that Australia actually wanted to renegotiate with HK about the bilateral, but it's the Hong Kong who aren't interested in an expanded bilateral.

And funny enough you said that, Australia has one of the most open aviation system that I've witnessed. Much of open-skies or a lot of capacity allocated with a lot of countries, and even an open-skies agreement with China (you don't really have many countries that have open-skies agreement with China). You can even go and set up a domestic airline that is 100% foreign controlled. Try this in just about any other country.

Michael
 
usssla
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2018

Mon Apr 23, 2018 2:33 pm

eamondzhang wrote:
waoz1 wrote:
Gemuser wrote:
How about a bit of accuracy rather than mud slinging? QF has no input into the decision to allow/not allow foreign airline services in to Australia, apart from the usual lobbying of the government that ALL companies do.
As well the Australian government cannot disallow services by foreign airlines *IF* the proposal is within the current Air Service Agreement. Therefore I presume that CX is maxed out to PER under the ASA, if they want more access it will require negotiations between the Australian & Hong Kong governments, which would probably result, in return, for more access to HKG by Australian airlines, which I doubt CX would like.

Gemuser



When you think about it, if an airline wants to increase flights its a benefit to Australia in the form of tourism/trade and jobs.
If Qantas isn't interested then why not allow others to do so.

Just seems a tad crazy we are so restrictive with things.

For Hong Kong - Australia service my understanding is that QF has absolutely no input on the government's bilateral negotiation with HKSAR. I read here in an older Australian Aviation Thread that Australia actually wanted to renegotiate with HK about the bilateral, but it's the Hong Kong who aren't interested in an expanded bilateral.

And funny enough you said that, Australia has one of the most open aviation system that I've witnessed. Much of open-skies or a lot of capacity allocated with a lot of countries, and even an open-skies agreement with China (you don't really have many countries that have open-skies agreement with China). You can even go and set up a domestic airline that is 100% foreign controlled. Try this in just about any other country.

Michael


Australia and Hong Kong are negotiating free trade agreement. Open-sky agreement maybe part of that.
 
downdata
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2018

Mon Apr 23, 2018 2:50 pm

planemanofnz wrote:
mh124 wrote:
Yes Perth has more people, but Auckland is the financial centre for the entire New Zealand economy.

Eh, PER is the gateway to the WA economy, which is virtually the same size as the New Zealand economy, to which AKL is the gateway to.

See: https://www.domain.com.au/money-markets ... 29-h0onmo/.

I do appreciate that comparisons to ADL, AKL or elsewhere are difficult though..

Cheers,

C.


Well, there is a reason why avg house price in Perth is 550k and above 1mil in Auckland...
 
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CraigAnderson
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2018

Mon Apr 23, 2018 11:09 pm

No more QF B747s for LAX in major network rejig from Qantas
https://www.ausbt.com.au/qantas-drops-b ... ource=hero
 
Whatsaptudo
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2018

Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:02 am

In an internal email this morning, QF have confirmed they want to operate seasonal services PER-South Africa (doesn’t mention which city), and they want it to operate from Terminal 3. They are in discussions with Perth airport.
Last edited by Whatsaptudo on Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:05 am, edited 3 times in total.
 
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qf789
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2018

Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:04 am

QF network changes include

SYD-LAX eff 4 Dec QF11/12 will be all A380, no 744, seasonal QF17/18 will be 2 weekly A380

SYD-HNL from 7 Dec to Easter will see 744 instead of A333

SYD-SFO will go daily eff 17 Dec

SYD-DFW will drop to 6 weekly eff 4 Feb 19

SYD-KIX increasesto 4 weekly from 7 Dec

SYD-PEK reduced to 5 weekly from 28 Oct

SYD-MNL extra service added on Tuesday’s from28 Oct

https://www.qantasnewsroom.com.au/media ... rk-update/
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eamondzhang
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2018

Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:13 am

qf789 wrote:

Mostly makes sense except SYD-DFW - lack of aircraft anyone? Or maybe they're planning BNE-DFW?

usssla wrote:
Australia and Hong Kong are negotiating free trade agreement. Open-sky agreement maybe part of that.

Thx, wasn't aware of that but it could certainly be part of the package.

Michael
 
waoz1
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2018

Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:39 am

Whatsaptudo wrote:
In an internal email this morning, QF have confirmed they want to operate seasonal services PER-South Africa (doesn’t mention which city), and they want it to operate from Terminal 3. They are in discussions with Perth airport.


Not sure Qantas does itselt any favours with seasonal services.. but good luck if they do.
Perth airport would be fine with that im sure as they forked out for the upgrades, would want to get some money back on investment.


Suprising they are with recent comments from all the economic experts from the east on here.
 
tullamarine
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2018

Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:44 am

usssla wrote:
Australia and Hong Kong are negotiating free trade agreement. Open-sky agreement maybe part of that.

Thx, wasn't aware of that but it could certainly be part of the package.


Open skies arrangement would be of little value to AU airlines currently. They can't get additional slots in HKG so ability to fly there is restricted anyway. It would benefit CX who control a huge bloc of HKG slots and whose only limitations in AU are landing slots in SYD and gate slots in MEL.
717, 721/2, 732/3/4/5/7/8/9, 742/3/4, 752/3, 762/3, 772/E/W, 788/9, 300,310, 319,320/1, 332/3, 359, 388, DC9, DC10, F28, F100, 142,143, E75/90, CR2, D82/3/4, SF3, ATR
 
Whatsaptudo
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2018

Tue Apr 24, 2018 1:37 am

waoz1 wrote:
Whatsaptudo wrote:
In an internal email this morning, QF have confirmed they want to operate seasonal services PER-South Africa (doesn’t mention which city), and they want it to operate from Terminal 3. They are in discussions with Perth airport.


Not sure Qantas does itselt any favours with seasonal services.. but good luck if they do.
Perth airport would be fine with that im sure as they forked out for the upgrades, would want to get some money back on investment.


Suprising they are with recent comments from all the economic experts from the east on here.


Osaka was announced as a seasonal service, but moved to year round before it began. Might be a bit of that in this also.
 
Kashmon
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2018

Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:00 am

tullamarine wrote:
usssla wrote:
Australia and Hong Kong are negotiating free trade agreement. Open-sky agreement maybe part of that.

Thx, wasn't aware of that but it could certainly be part of the package.


Open skies arrangement would be of little value to AU airlines currently. They can't get additional slots in HKG so ability to fly there is restricted anyway. It would benefit CX who control a huge bloc of HKG slots and whose only limitations in AU are landing slots in SYD and gate slots in MEL.

currently

CX has been asking for more slots for nearly 6 years now, slots were aplenty in 2011, not CX's fault the AUS airlines were incompetent... and the AU airlines had fifth freedom right to use more HKG slots when they were freely available but they did not

its better for the consumer anyway- more flights and connection opportunities through Asia's biggest international hub.

Plus it does not have to be CX
HX would gain as well which would give more options for the customer.

The goal a free democratic government is to serve the people, not QF's executive team
 
Kashmon
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2018

Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:05 am

eamondzhang wrote:
waoz1 wrote:
Gemuser wrote:
How about a bit of accuracy rather than mud slinging? QF has no input into the decision to allow/not allow foreign airline services in to Australia, apart from the usual lobbying of the government that ALL companies do.
As well the Australian government cannot disallow services by foreign airlines *IF* the proposal is within the current Air Service Agreement. Therefore I presume that CX is maxed out to PER under the ASA, if they want more access it will require negotiations between the Australian & Hong Kong governments, which would probably result, in return, for more access to HKG by Australian airlines, which I doubt CX would like.

Gemuser



When you think about it, if an airline wants to increase flights its a benefit to Australia in the form of tourism/trade and jobs.
If Qantas isn't interested then why not allow others to do so.

Just seems a tad crazy we are so restrictive with things.

For Hong Kong - Australia service my understanding is that QF has absolutely no input on the government's bilateral negotiation with HKSAR. I read here in an older Australian Aviation Thread that Australia actually wanted to renegotiate with HK about the bilateral, but it's the Hong Kong who aren't interested in an expanded bilateral.

And funny enough you said that, Australia has one of the most open aviation system that I've witnessed. Much of open-skies or a lot of capacity allocated with a lot of countries, and even an open-skies agreement with China (you don't really have many countries that have open-skies agreement with China). You can even go and set up a domestic airline that is 100% foreign controlled. Try this in just about any other country.

Michael


Well the HKG side from what I have heard insists it is QF pulling the strings and halting talks

QF used to have a hub in HK, but they got out foxed, it makes sense that they would want to restrict a competitor from HK....

Just because AU is open to everyone does not mean it is always seeking to be open- it has been restrictive with HKG for nearly a decade now.
QF does not want another SQ like takeover of their Europe and Chinese passengers
 
getluv
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2018

Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:26 am

Kashmon wrote:
eamondzhang wrote:
waoz1 wrote:


When you think about it, if an airline wants to increase flights its a benefit to Australia in the form of tourism/trade and jobs.
If Qantas isn't interested then why not allow others to do so.

Just seems a tad crazy we are so restrictive with things.

For Hong Kong - Australia service my understanding is that QF has absolutely no input on the government's bilateral negotiation with HKSAR. I read here in an older Australian Aviation Thread that Australia actually wanted to renegotiate with HK about the bilateral, but it's the Hong Kong who aren't interested in an expanded bilateral.

And funny enough you said that, Australia has one of the most open aviation system that I've witnessed. Much of open-skies or a lot of capacity allocated with a lot of countries, and even an open-skies agreement with China (you don't really have many countries that have open-skies agreement with China). You can even go and set up a domestic airline that is 100% foreign controlled. Try this in just about any other country.

Michael


Well the HKG side from what I have heard insists it is QF pulling the strings and halting talks

QF used to have a hub in HK, but they got out foxed, it makes sense that they would want to restrict a competitor from HK....

Just because AU is open to everyone does not mean it is always seeking to be open- it has been restrictive with HKG for nearly a decade now.
QF does not want another SQ like takeover of their Europe and Chinese passengers

Considering your anti-QF bias on here, I will take your posts with a grain of salt.

Any relaxation in the AU-HK bilateral will hurt CX the most, not QF. Australian carriers are not permitted to codeshare on routes beyond HK which is what both QF and VA want in exchange for HK wanting a better deal, which CX doesn't need especially when it can upgauge aircraft.

Given how difficult getting primetime slots is in HK, I think the impasse will continue for a while.
Last edited by getluv on Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:39 am, edited 3 times in total.
I'm that bad type.
 
Sydscott
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2018

Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:32 am

Kashmon wrote:
eamondzhang wrote:
waoz1 wrote:


When you think about it, if an airline wants to increase flights its a benefit to Australia in the form of tourism/trade and jobs.
If Qantas isn't interested then why not allow others to do so.

Just seems a tad crazy we are so restrictive with things.

For Hong Kong - Australia service my understanding is that QF has absolutely no input on the government's bilateral negotiation with HKSAR. I read here in an older Australian Aviation Thread that Australia actually wanted to renegotiate with HK about the bilateral, but it's the Hong Kong who aren't interested in an expanded bilateral.

And funny enough you said that, Australia has one of the most open aviation system that I've witnessed. Much of open-skies or a lot of capacity allocated with a lot of countries, and even an open-skies agreement with China (you don't really have many countries that have open-skies agreement with China). You can even go and set up a domestic airline that is 100% foreign controlled. Try this in just about any other country.

Michael


Well the HKG side from what I have heard insists it is QF pulling the strings and halting talks

QF used to have a hub in HK, but they got out foxed, it makes sense that they would want to restrict a competitor from HK....

Just because AU is open to everyone does not mean it is always seeking to be open- it has been restrictive with HKG for nearly a decade now.
QF does not want another SQ like takeover of their Europe and Chinese passengers


Without allowing this to takeover this thread, we've been through all this before:

1) Cathay has maxed out the slots it has and is upgrading services to larger aircraft. This somewhat negates what they are saying because they've been able to significantly increase capacity despite being at the bilateral max;
2) The liberalisation of the Chinese Agreement has negated, to a large extent, the need to do a deal with Hong Kong. You can expect further liberalisation of that to occur in future thereby allowing mainland carriers to build their access levels so their hubs can compete with CX's and eventually overtake it;
3) Given the liberalisation of the Chinese Agreement, Hong Kong has so far, clearly, not made an offer attractive enough to Australia to get more slots. If it had, we would have a deal;
4) Australian Carriers currently do not use anywhere near the bilateral slot limit. So there is neither the imperative, nor the push from this side, about doing a deal. So while it would be a nice to have it's not critical for Australia to give further frequency rights to Hong Kong Carriers;
5) An Open Skies Agreement and a Free Trade Agreement with Hong Kong is probably a pipedream given the general lack of agreements between the two countries and the difficulty negotiating them. I'd not expect either of these to be given priority unless Hong Kong could match, or beat, the deal Australia currently has with a Country like Singapore.

For all of these reason I'd not expect talks between Hong Kong and Australia to go anywhere just like in the past.

As for QF's involvement there are a few posters on here who have claimed that the Australian Government favours QF and in particular in relation to Hong Kong. The objective facts of the situation clearly show the opposite and the Open Skies Agreements with places like the UAE, Singapore and China are clear examples of the Australian Government putting the much larger benefits that Open Skies bring in front of protecting Australian Carriers. That is the history of Trade Agreements and Australia for basically the last 30 years and is consistent from both sides of politics here in Australia. The fact that Hong Kong has been unable to negotiate something similar says everything about Hong Kong and CX.
 
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CraigAnderson
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2018

Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:27 am

GT reports on QF vs PER for T3 vs T1, makes interesting observations about terminal arrangements: "Another difficulty for Qantas is that the A330 will operate from Sydney as a domestic flight to T4 and then require towing to the other side of the airport to T1 which can take up to one hour depending on traffic in a worse-case scenario."

https://thewest.com.au/business/aviatio ... b88800665z
 
qf002
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2018

Tue Apr 24, 2018 5:24 am

Kashmon wrote:
The goal a free democratic government is to serve the people, not QF's executive team


VA has benefited more from the HKG situation in recent years than QF. Allowing CX to saturate the market with more and more frequencies only makes it harder for new competitors to enter.

I would support CX being granted additional rights but with some concessions designed to encourage competition (ie CX agreeing to make a certain number of HKG slots available to competitors wishing to enter the market or increase service, similar to some of the conditions placed on the various TATL JVs).
 
redroo
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2018

Tue Apr 24, 2018 5:28 am

CraigAnderson wrote:
GT reports on QF vs PER for T3 vs T1, makes interesting observations about terminal arrangements: "Another difficulty for Qantas is that the A330 will operate from Sydney as a domestic flight to T4 and then require towing to the other side of the airport to T1 which can take up to one hour depending on traffic in a worse-case scenario."

https://thewest.com.au/business/aviatio ... b88800665z


The way PAPL treat their biggest customer is a joke. One would have thought they would want to encourage more flights through Perth. Problem is they make more money through the other terminals because QF owns the domestic part of its terminal and I believe the concessions.

PAPL could hurry up and build a decent terminal on the international side capable of holding all of QFs operations.

End of rant.
 
tullamarine
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2018

Tue Apr 24, 2018 5:37 am

VA has benefited more from the HKG situation in recent years than QF. Allowing CX to saturate the market with more and more frequencies only makes it harder for new competitors to enter


How has VA benefited from the lack of slots in HKG? It has meant that it has not been able to get daily slots for both MEL and SYD services and, even now, the MEL services have had to be moved to different times as some of the slots that were available could only be used from a curfew-free airport.

QF has also been limited but has had the benefit on incumbency meaning it already a suite of fairly good slots enabling daily services from a number of AU ports.
717, 721/2, 732/3/4/5/7/8/9, 742/3/4, 752/3, 762/3, 772/E/W, 788/9, 300,310, 319,320/1, 332/3, 359, 388, DC9, DC10, F28, F100, 142,143, E75/90, CR2, D82/3/4, SF3, ATR
 
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qf789
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2018

Tue Apr 24, 2018 5:39 am

redroo wrote:
CraigAnderson wrote:
GT reports on QF vs PER for T3 vs T1, makes interesting observations about terminal arrangements: "Another difficulty for Qantas is that the A330 will operate from Sydney as a domestic flight to T4 and then require towing to the other side of the airport to T1 which can take up to one hour depending on traffic in a worse-case scenario."

https://thewest.com.au/business/aviatio ... b88800665z


The way PAPL treat their biggest customer is a joke. One would have thought they would want to encourage more flights through Perth. Problem is they make more money through the other terminals because QF owns the domestic part of its terminal and I believe the concessions.

PAPL could hurry up and build a decent terminal on the international side capable of holding all of QFs operations.

End of rant.


I agree with this. It seems quite silly on Perth Airport’s part to push for the flight to be operated at T1 when QF only moved their flights to T3 only 30 days ago, not only that but didn’t QF and PER sign an agreement that all QF flights would be moved to T1 by the end of 2025, so what has changed. This could actually open up a Pandora’s box, what terminal will QF be expected to operate other future flights let’s say to Europe from. A lot of money has been spent on upgrading T3 it makes sense to get a ROI on it
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qf002
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2018

Tue Apr 24, 2018 5:50 am

tullamarine wrote:
How has VA benefited from the lack of slots in HKG?


I was referring to the fact that CX hasn’t been able to continuously add flights which means there is space in the market for new competitors to launch services.
 
Whatsaptudo
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2018

Tue Apr 24, 2018 5:50 am

What an utter disgrace Perth Airport is. Protecting South African jobs at the expense of Australians. Without QF expansion in Perth it is very probable they will close the base, potentially costing WA hundreds if not thousands of jobs, and most probably their only direct link to Europe. I think they’d better be careful.

https://thewest.com.au/business/aviatio ... b88800665z
 
waoz1
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2018

Tue Apr 24, 2018 6:09 am

We do have to be careful.

This is the west australian newspaper... not always completely accurate.
Its what sells papers.

Perth airport are fine with AKL seasonal, LHR daily and SIN double daily so not sure why they would be making a deal out of this one.
 
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CraigAnderson
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2018

Tue Apr 24, 2018 6:48 am

qf789 wrote:
I agree with this. It seems quite silly on Perth Airport’s part to push for the flight to be operated at T1 when QF only moved their flights to T3 only 30 days ago, not only that but didn’t QF and PER sign an agreement that all QF flights would be moved to T1 by the end of 2025, so what has changed. This could actually open up a Pandora’s box, what terminal will QF be expected to operate other future flights let’s say to Europe from. A lot of money has been spent on upgrading T3 it makes sense to get a ROI on it


I agree and it's strange isn't it, QF has moved all its existing international flights to T3 and launched PER-LHR from there so I don't understand what's the big deal about another route like PER-JNB operating from T3. Maybe there is more to it than just this, because on the surface what GT is reporting doesn't make sense.
 
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CraigAnderson
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2018

Tue Apr 24, 2018 6:49 am

Not sure if already reported? QF and JQ move to CGK T3 from May 11
https://www.ausbt.com.au/qantas-jetstar ... ource=grid.
 
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qf789
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2018

Tue Apr 24, 2018 7:19 am

waoz1 wrote:
We do have to be careful.

This is the west australian newspaper... not always completely accurate.
Its what sells papers.

Perth airport are fine with AKL seasonal, LHR daily and SIN double daily so not sure why they would be making a deal out of this one.


That may be true but Perth Airport has form in this area, in 2013 they dragged their feet with an A380 compatable gate for EK to start A380 services to PER in the end the A380 service was moved to BNE instead, then there was the 1 year delay in the construction of VA’s new terminal with the airport blaming the ones constructing it, in the end the construction firm sued the airport and then finally PER-LHR nearly didn’t get off the ground as PER wanted it at T1 and QF at T3, in the end the government had to intervene.

I suspect 2 things may be in play (there may be more), the first QF have asked for Gare 18 at T3 to upgraded to a dual bridge gate and second Perth Airport sees that there is more than enough room at the planned times with EY pulling the plug though i have read elsewhere this may only be temporary
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eta unknown
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2018

Tue Apr 24, 2018 7:31 am

Yeah EY says PER & EDI **MAY** be temporary. Define temporary- one year, two, three?
 
waoz1
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2018

Tue Apr 24, 2018 7:37 am

eta unknown wrote:
Yeah EY says PER & EDI **MAY** be temporary. Define temporary- one year, two, three?


Where was that quote from?
 
waoz1
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2018

Tue Apr 24, 2018 7:41 am

qf789 wrote:
waoz1 wrote:
We do have to be careful.

This is the west australian newspaper... not always completely accurate.
Its what sells papers.

Perth airport are fine with AKL seasonal, LHR daily and SIN double daily so not sure why they would be making a deal out of this one.


That may be true but Perth Airport has form in this area, in 2013 they dragged their feet with an A380 compatable gate for EK to start A380 services to PER in the end the A380 service was moved to BNE instead, then there was the 1 year delay in the construction of VA’s new terminal with the airport blaming the ones constructing it, in the end the construction firm sued the airport and then finally PER-LHR nearly didn’t get off the ground as PER wanted it at T1 and QF at T3, in the end the government had to intervene.

I suspect 2 things may be in play (there may be more), the first QF have asked for Gare 18 at T3 to upgraded to a dual bridge gate and second Perth Airport sees that there is more than enough room at the planned times with EY pulling the plug though i have read elsewhere this may only be temporary



I agree with you, but I dont always trust the local papers thats all.
Might be generating a storm in a teacup.
 
SYDSpotter
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2018

Tue Apr 24, 2018 8:44 am

Kashmon wrote:
Well the HKG side from what I have heard insists it is QF pulling the strings and halting talks


Time to get a new source...

Kashmon wrote:
QF used to have a hub in HK, but they got out foxed, it makes sense that they would want to restrict a competitor from HK....


Google Jetstar Hong Kong and then lets have another conversation about "free competition"
319_320_321_332_333_359_388 / 734_737_738_743_744_762_763_772_773_77W_788_789
 
eamondzhang
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2018

Tue Apr 24, 2018 10:15 am

Sydscott wrote:

Without allowing this to takeover this thread, we've been through all this before:

1) Cathay has maxed out the slots it has and is upgrading services to larger aircraft. This somewhat negates what they are saying because they've been able to significantly increase capacity despite being at the bilateral max;
2) The liberalisation of the Chinese Agreement has negated, to a large extent, the need to do a deal with Hong Kong. You can expect further liberalisation of that to occur in future thereby allowing mainland carriers to build their access levels so their hubs can compete with CX's and eventually overtake it;
3) Given the liberalisation of the Chinese Agreement, Hong Kong has so far, clearly, not made an offer attractive enough to Australia to get more slots. If it had, we would have a deal;
4) Australian Carriers currently do not use anywhere near the bilateral slot limit. So there is neither the imperative, nor the push from this side, about doing a deal. So while it would be a nice to have it's not critical for Australia to give further frequency rights to Hong Kong Carriers;
5) An Open Skies Agreement and a Free Trade Agreement with Hong Kong is probably a pipedream given the general lack of agreements between the two countries and the difficulty negotiating them. I'd not expect either of these to be given priority unless Hong Kong could match, or beat, the deal Australia currently has with a Country like Singapore.

For all of these reason I'd not expect talks between Hong Kong and Australia to go anywhere just like in the past.

As for QF's involvement there are a few posters on here who have claimed that the Australian Government favours QF and in particular in relation to Hong Kong. The objective facts of the situation clearly show the opposite and the Open Skies Agreements with places like the UAE, Singapore and China are clear examples of the Australian Government putting the much larger benefits that Open Skies bring in front of protecting Australian Carriers. That is the history of Trade Agreements and Australia for basically the last 30 years and is consistent from both sides of politics here in Australia. The fact that Hong Kong has been unable to negotiate something similar says everything about Hong Kong and CX.

Well said, I couldn't say that better.

CX's increased frequency will, let's be honest, dominate the market even further given the fact that they've already got the largest number of flights, and enjoy monopoly to PER/ADL routes. At least now VA could enter the market, or otherwise the competition may be too severe for them to enter IMHO.
SYDSpotter wrote:

Kashmon wrote:
QF used to have a hub in HK, but they got out foxed, it makes sense that they would want to restrict a competitor from HK....


Google Jetstar Hong Kong and then lets have another conversation about "free competition"

Indeed, especially with the strong objection force from CX behind Jetstar HK's demise to make sure their short-haul flights are not squashed (but they're bleeding nowadays even with the absence of Jetstar HK).

Michael
 
waoz1
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2018

Tue Apr 24, 2018 11:57 am

Hope the link works

Perths today tonight had first look at SQ new 787-10 starting Perth on May 7th

https://m.facebook.com/TodayTonight/?__tn__=C-R
 
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qf789
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2018

Tue Apr 24, 2018 11:58 am

waoz1 wrote:
eta unknown wrote:
Yeah EY says PER & EDI **MAY** be temporary. Define temporary- one year, two, three?


Where was that quote from?


Here's the link to the story

http://www.arabianbusiness.com/transpor ... irways-ceo
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Sydscott
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2018

Tue Apr 24, 2018 11:55 pm

qf789 wrote:
waoz1 wrote:
We do have to be careful.

This is the west australian newspaper... not always completely accurate.
Its what sells papers.

Perth airport are fine with AKL seasonal, LHR daily and SIN double daily so not sure why they would be making a deal out of this one.


That may be true but Perth Airport has form in this area, in 2013 they dragged their feet with an A380 compatable gate for EK to start A380 services to PER in the end the A380 service was moved to BNE instead, then there was the 1 year delay in the construction of VA’s new terminal with the airport blaming the ones constructing it, in the end the construction firm sued the airport and then finally PER-LHR nearly didn’t get off the ground as PER wanted it at T1 and QF at T3, in the end the government had to intervene.

I suspect 2 things may be in play (there may be more), the first QF have asked for Gare 18 at T3 to upgraded to a dual bridge gate and second Perth Airport sees that there is more than enough room at the planned times with EY pulling the plug though i have read elsewhere this may only be temporary


Being a WA native and frequent traveller between SYD and PER, I've got ot say that the Management of PER really has been a disgrace. I can understand that eventually they want to consolidate all of the terminals but the fact is a seasonal PER-JNB service would be mainly targeting the locals with a few connections. The SYD-JNB takes the traffic bound to the East Coast while PER takes the rest.

At the back of this though, I think QF smells an opportunity to kick out a much weakened South African Airways and replace them with QF service to JNB out of PER. Ever since the codeshare arrangements were denied renewal I suspect QF has been watching this route and waiting for the right opportunity to jump back into the market with its own metal. Why not start with a seasonal service, just like KIX, and see how it goes?
 
waoz1
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2018

Wed Apr 25, 2018 12:30 am

Sydscott wrote:
qf789 wrote:
waoz1 wrote:
We do have to be careful.

This is the west australian newspaper... not always completely accurate.
Its what sells papers.

Perth airport are fine with AKL seasonal, LHR daily and SIN double daily so not sure why they would be making a deal out of this one.


That may be true but Perth Airport has form in this area, in 2013 they dragged their feet with an A380 compatable gate for EK to start A380 services to PER in the end the A380 service was moved to BNE instead, then there was the 1 year delay in the construction of VA’s new terminal with the airport blaming the ones constructing it, in the end the construction firm sued the airport and then finally PER-LHR nearly didn’t get off the ground as PER wanted it at T1 and QF at T3, in the end the government had to intervene.

I suspect 2 things may be in play (there may be more), the first QF have asked for Gare 18 at T3 to upgraded to a dual bridge gate and second Perth Airport sees that there is more than enough room at the planned times with EY pulling the plug though i have read elsewhere this may only be temporary


Being a WA native and frequent traveller between SYD and PER, I've got ot say that the Management of PER really has been a disgrace. I can understand that eventually they want to consolidate all of the terminals but the fact is a seasonal PER-JNB service would be mainly targeting the locals with a few connections. The SYD-JNB takes the traffic bound to the East Coast while PER takes the rest.

At the back of this though, I think QF smells an opportunity to kick out a much weakened South African Airways and replace them with QF service to JNB out of PER. Ever since the codeshare arrangements were denied renewal I suspect QF has been watching this route and waiting for the right opportunity to jump back into the market with its own metal. Why not start with a seasonal service, just like KIX, and see how it goes?



I always think with QF tho you cant trust them with Perth services they have a bit of a track record of cutting international services. To think we went from Tokyo,Hong Kong,Singapore,Bali.... to nothing only a few years ago.
So whats not to say they get SA out of the market then drop services...?
 
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RyanairGuru
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2018

Wed Apr 25, 2018 12:34 am

waoz1 wrote:
Sydscott wrote:
qf789 wrote:

That may be true but Perth Airport has form in this area, in 2013 they dragged their feet with an A380 compatable gate for EK to start A380 services to PER in the end the A380 service was moved to BNE instead, then there was the 1 year delay in the construction of VA’s new terminal with the airport blaming the ones constructing it, in the end the construction firm sued the airport and then finally PER-LHR nearly didn’t get off the ground as PER wanted it at T1 and QF at T3, in the end the government had to intervene.

I suspect 2 things may be in play (there may be more), the first QF have asked for Gare 18 at T3 to upgraded to a dual bridge gate and second Perth Airport sees that there is more than enough room at the planned times with EY pulling the plug though i have read elsewhere this may only be temporary


Being a WA native and frequent traveller between SYD and PER, I've got ot say that the Management of PER really has been a disgrace. I can understand that eventually they want to consolidate all of the terminals but the fact is a seasonal PER-JNB service would be mainly targeting the locals with a few connections. The SYD-JNB takes the traffic bound to the East Coast while PER takes the rest.

At the back of this though, I think QF smells an opportunity to kick out a much weakened South African Airways and replace them with QF service to JNB out of PER. Ever since the codeshare arrangements were denied renewal I suspect QF has been watching this route and waiting for the right opportunity to jump back into the market with its own metal. Why not start with a seasonal service, just like KIX, and see how it goes?



I always think with QF tho you cant trust them with Perth services they have a bit of a track record of cutting international services. To think we went from Tokyo,Hong Kong,Singapore,Bali.... to nothing only a few years ago.
So whats not to say they get SA out of the market then drop services...?


Qantas in 2018 is a very different company to Qantas in 2011.
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
ben175
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2018

Wed Apr 25, 2018 1:07 am

Is SYD-HNL reverting back to a 330 after April? I find it strange they wouldn't keep the 744 on during the June/July peak period.
 
vhebb
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2018

Wed Apr 25, 2018 3:08 am

The schedule season ends at the end of March 2019. I wouldn't be surprised to see the B744s continue to serve HNL with the A330s deployed elsewhere
 
81819
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2018

Wed Apr 25, 2018 3:57 am

vhebb wrote:
The schedule season ends at the end of March 2019. I wouldn't be surprised to see the B744s continue to serve HNL with the A330s deployed elsewhere


Considering the 744's will remain with the older business product, I suspect these aircraft will eventually be relegated to secondary markets such as HNL, JNB & SCL. For passengers flying to the US the 787-9 and refurbished A380 combo will allow for a consistent product and for QANTAS the opportunity to right size aircraft to match underlying demand.
 
ZK-NBT
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2018

Wed Apr 25, 2018 5:13 am

I think there could be a few more changes for QF, afaik the 744 fleet will remain at 10 for now meaning there is still be some slack.

The 744’s at different times have gone to BKK/PVG over the peak season.

BNE-SIN was mentioned about more capacity sometime back, is this still on the cards? I’d say a second daily A330 over a 744 given all the 744’s seem SYD bound and they don’t go to SIN.

PER-AKL is still seasonal, will be interesting to see if anything happens here, demand is seasonal but QF have done this for 4-5 years now.

I could see some Tasman changes given the NZ/VA split. Will EK keep SYD-CHC? Long term I don’t think so, so some more QF capacity there.
 
81819
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2018

Wed Apr 25, 2018 5:24 am

ZK-NBT wrote:
I think there could be a few more changes for QF, afaik the 744 fleet will remain at 10 for now meaning there is still be some slack.

The 744’s at different times have gone to BKK/PVG over the peak season.

BNE-SIN was mentioned about more capacity sometime back, is this still on the cards? I’d say a second daily A330 over a 744 given all the 744’s seem SYD bound and they don’t go to SIN.

PER-AKL is still seasonal, will be interesting to see if anything happens here, demand is seasonal but QF have done this for 4-5 years now.

I could see some Tasman changes given the NZ/VA split. Will EK keep SYD-CHC? Long term I don’t think so, so some more QF capacity there.


The 744's are perfect for developing new markets. Even if A330's or 787's are subbed in and the 744 used for existing markets, the flexibility of having a whole lot of capacity at very little cost means QF can try new routes without the risk of having to bring new aircraft in.

I'd like to see the 744ER replacement aircraft ordered early. This would allow QF to try even more new markets.........and if things don't work out, they simply retire the 744's early. Very little risk in that......other than corporate debt gearing.
 
An767
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2018

Wed Apr 25, 2018 5:25 am

travelhound wrote:
vhebb wrote:
The schedule season ends at the end of March 2019. I wouldn't be surprised to see the B744s continue to serve HNL with the A330s deployed elsewhere


Considering the 744's will remain with the older business product, I suspect these aircraft will eventually be relegated to secondary markets such as HNL, JNB & SCL. For passengers flying to the US the 787-9 and refurbished A380 combo will allow for a consistent product and for QANTAS the opportunity to right size aircraft to match underlying demand.


When does the refurb program start on the 380 fleet. I flew QF1&2 last week, and the business cabin is still not a bad product. It is no match for the 330 &787 cabin

AN767
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MooLor
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2018

Wed Apr 25, 2018 10:04 am

IndianicWorld wrote:
Those MEL pax numbers are huge. I think SYD was around 9% international growth in March, so both are strong but this MEL result was certainly way above expectations.

How is the terminal handling that? Just crazy stuff.


SYD was up 11.1% in March according to this article: http://australianaviation.com.au/2018/04/sydney-airport-reports-double-digit-increase-in-international-passengers/

Numbers are similar - MEL's 16.5% increase is an increase of ~130,000 passengers. SYD's 11.1% is an increase of around 137,000 passengers.

As the Australian Aviation article points out, Easter fell in March this year / April 2017, which accounts for some of March's growth.
 
a7ala
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2018

Wed Apr 25, 2018 10:12 am

ZK-NBT wrote:
I could see some Tasman changes given the NZ/VA split. Will EK keep SYD-CHC? Long term I don’t think so, so some more QF capacity there.


Surely wlg-bne is on the cards given its a significant gap in the qf Tasman offering and the competition is now much weaker with the same capacity now split across both va and nz. If not with qf then surely with ek?
 
Flyerqf
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2018

Wed Apr 25, 2018 10:35 am

qf789 wrote:
QF network changes include

SYD-LAX eff 4 Dec QF11/12 will be all A380, no 744, seasonal QF17/18 will be 2 weekly A380

SYD-HNL from 7 Dec to Easter will see 744 instead of A333

SYD-SFO will go daily eff 17 Dec

SYD-DFW will drop to 6 weekly eff 4 Feb 19

SYD-KIX increasesto 4 weekly from 7 Dec

SYD-PEK reduced to 5 weekly from 28 Oct

SYD-MNL extra service added on Tuesday’s from28 Oct

https://www.qantasnewsroom.com.au/media ... rk-update/


Still only utilizing 10 of the 12 A380s. They are still only having 1 in maintenance at a time so have an operational spare. Presumably either HKG goes A380 or they start doing maintenance on 2 concurrently.

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