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kearnet
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Patriots already selling one of the team 767s?

Sat Mar 31, 2018 9:26 pm

While taking a drive around GYR today, I saw one of the Patriot 767s sans decals outside AerSales, with a cherry picker raised to the crown. I think it was N36NE but couldn’t see the reg clearly in the sun.

I know the plan was to charter them during the off season if I recall correctly,. I also know one of them was used last week to take the Parkland students to DC for the rally. This Sun Sentinal article shows the plane used for that trip with full decals ( http://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/browa ... story.html ) Alas, as the reg's are not trackeable I’m not sure if they're the same one or not.

As they only acquired the planes last August, and I’m assuming they would have had a major check before delivery, plus I think it’d be cost prohibited to change the decals on and off with the seasons, I can only conclude one is being sold.

Unless AerSales is doing some type of upgrade maintenance, but then again, why remove decals unless D-Check not done before acquiring?

Only other out there hypothesis is they're taking a 3rd one.
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32andBelow
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Re: Patriots already selling one of the team 767s?

Sat Mar 31, 2018 9:29 pm

Maybe they are just taking the decals off for the off season so they can just charter it as a white tail.
 
UA444
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Re: Patriots already selling one of the team 767s?

Sun Apr 01, 2018 12:40 am

Maybe the embarrassment from the Super Bowl was too much to handle? Hopefully.
 
ual763
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Re: Patriots already selling one of the team 767s?

Sun Apr 01, 2018 1:22 am

Yeah one of them had a pretty massive tail strike last year.
From flying to the NOTAM office
 
Max Q
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Re: Patriots already selling one of the team 767s?

Sun Apr 01, 2018 1:23 am

Wasn’t one of them involved in a tail strike ?
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lat41
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Re: Patriots already selling one of the team 767s?

Sun Apr 01, 2018 1:29 am

Saw one at its home port PVD this past Wednesday parked in its usual prominent spot with full livery. Yes they cannot be followed on Flightaware etc.
 
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Runway28L
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Re: Patriots already selling one of the team 767s?

Sun Apr 01, 2018 1:35 am

Anyone know if they can be tracked on OpenADSB?
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lavalampluva
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Re: Patriots already selling one of the team 767s?

Sun Apr 01, 2018 2:13 am

Have two seemed a little much. One widebody should be plenty. Even for an NFL team.
Remind me to send a thank you note to Mr. Boeing.
 
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kearnet
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Re: Patriots already selling one of the team 767s?

Sun Apr 01, 2018 2:38 am

So after doing some additional research it seems it was N225NE that I saw, which never had the decals applied, just the color scheme.

I’m still curious why it was on AerSale's ramp with a cherry picker working on it. I know AerSale is an MRO, so maybe general maintenance or systems (antenna) upgrade.
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7673mech
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Re: Patriots already selling one of the team 767s?

Sun Apr 01, 2018 3:03 am

ual763 wrote:
Yeah one of them had a pretty massive tail strike last year.


No it didn't.
Trouble with the internet, everyone sees a unclear picture, assumes they know and it gets discussed here to death, but it didn't happen.
Also it was the other tail number.
 
MO11
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Re: Patriots already selling one of the team 767s?

Sun Apr 01, 2018 3:07 am

Team 125 is Part 125; these planes can't be chartered.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Patriots already selling one of the team 767s?

Sun Apr 01, 2018 3:17 am

MO11 wrote:
Team 125 is Part 125; these planes can't be chartered.


Beat me to it. GYR has both maintenance and painting contractors at the facility. What's being done to the plane could be frankly anything. That it's there means absolutely zero in terms of the company's Fleet plans.
 
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Acey559
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Re: Patriots already selling one of the team 767s?

Sun Apr 01, 2018 6:45 am

One of them was just in ILN a few weeks ago getting some work done.
 
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ODwyerPW
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Re: Patriots already selling one of the team 767s?

Sun Apr 01, 2018 11:43 pm

Airliners.Net rumors are awesome!!
Rumors:
It had a tail strike.
It's had it's decals stripped.
It's parked.
They are selling it.
Truth:
Who knows, perhaps it is just having the equivalent of an oil change?
learning never stops.
 
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KGRB
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Re: Patriots already selling one of the team 767s?

Mon Apr 02, 2018 12:03 am

lavalampluva wrote:
Have two seemed a little much. One widebody should be plenty. Even for an NFL team.

And when their one plane goes on MX, then what? It's not like DL, AA, and UA can get them a widebody at a moment's notice.
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PVDspotting
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Re: Patriots already selling one of the team 767s?

Mon Apr 02, 2018 12:58 am

My guess is N225NE is in GYR to be stored over the off season? While N36NE is indeed sitting at PVD.
 
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kearnet
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Re: Patriots already selling one of the team 767s?

Mon Apr 02, 2018 2:54 am

KGRB wrote:
lavalampluva wrote:
Have two seemed a little much. One widebody should be plenty. Even for an NFL team.

And when their one plane goes on MX, then what? It's not like DL, AA, and UA can get them a widebody at a moment's notice.


I actually have to agree with lavalampluva, especially now that I know they can't use them for charter ops in the off season, they don't have that many away games that a second one would be that critical.

What is critical is that they do need be at the way games on time, but so does every other team who doesn't own there own planes.

Even with the mountains of money Kraft and Co. have, the cost/value equation doesn't equal out in my mind for two planes, heck even one of this size second hand seems slightly off, but at least one is logical to me.

As stated above even though AerSale does to maintenance, I would not be at all surprised if suddenly the franchise realized they'd might have bitten off more then they can chew with two.

I do grant all less dramatic options, ie off season storage and maintenance are perfectly valid too.
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PVDspotting
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Re: Patriots already selling one of the team 767s?

Mon Apr 02, 2018 4:24 pm

kearnet wrote:
KGRB wrote:
lavalampluva wrote:
Have two seemed a little much. One widebody should be plenty. Even for an NFL team.

And when their one plane goes on MX, then what? It's not like DL, AA, and UA can get them a widebody at a moment's notice.


I actually have to agree with lavalampluva, especially now that I know they can't use them for charter ops in the off season, they don't have that many away games that a second one would be that critical.

What is critical is that they do need be at the way games on time, but so does every other team who doesn't own there own planes.

Even with the mountains of money Kraft and Co. have, the cost/value equation doesn't equal out in my mind for two planes, heck even one of this size second hand seems slightly off, but at least one is logical to me.

As stated above even though AerSale does to maintenance, I would not be at all surprised if suddenly the franchise realized they'd might have bitten off more then they can chew with two.

I do grant all less dramatic options, ie off season storage and maintenance are perfectly valid too.

Who says they can't use the plane for charters? N36NE was used to fly the New England Revolution soccer team to Philly after a Nor'easter. Also flew the Parkland, Florida students and family to DC and back. Are those not considered charters? As far as N225NE, don't believe it's getting sold.
 
ScottB
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Re: Patriots already selling one of the team 767s?

Mon Apr 02, 2018 4:33 pm

PVDspotting wrote:
Who says they can't use the plane for charters? N36NE was used to fly the New England Revolution soccer team to Philly after a Nor'easter. Also flew the Parkland, Florida students and family to DC and back. Are those not considered charters?


They're not charters. The Kraft Group owns the Revolution as well, and they can fly other people with their aircraft if they want. They just can't do it for hire.
 
PVDspotting
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Re: Patriots already selling one of the team 767s?

Mon Apr 02, 2018 4:37 pm

ScottB wrote:
PVDspotting wrote:
Who says they can't use the plane for charters? N36NE was used to fly the New England Revolution soccer team to Philly after a Nor'easter. Also flew the Parkland, Florida students and family to DC and back. Are those not considered charters?


They're not charters. The Kraft Group owns the Revolution as well, and they can fly other people with their aircraft if they want. They just can't do it for hire.

Thanks, clearly I need another coffee lol. I miss took it as the plane couldn't be used for anything but the Patriots.
 
UA444
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Re: Patriots already selling one of the team 767s?

Mon Apr 02, 2018 7:26 pm

I think the Patriots were smart enough to do the numbers and got two planes because the costs and flexibility was justified.
 
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kjeld0d
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Re: Patriots already selling one of the team 767s?

Mon Apr 02, 2018 8:22 pm

kearnet wrote:
Even with the mountains of money Kraft and Co. have, the cost/value equation doesn't equal out in my mind for two planes, heck even one of this size second hand seems slightly off, but at least one is logical to me.


I can imagine they'd have to sell alot of peanut butter and mac and cheese to pay for a couple of 767s!
 
32andBelow
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Re: Patriots already selling one of the team 767s?

Mon Apr 02, 2018 9:24 pm

kearnet wrote:
KGRB wrote:
lavalampluva wrote:
Have two seemed a little much. One widebody should be plenty. Even for an NFL team.

And when their one plane goes on MX, then what? It's not like DL, AA, and UA can get them a widebody at a moment's notice.


I actually have to agree with lavalampluva, especially now that I know they can't use them for charter ops in the off season, they don't have that many away games that a second one would be that critical.

What is critical is that they do need be at the way games on time, but so does every other team who doesn't own there own planes.

Even with the mountains of money Kraft and Co. have, the cost/value equation doesn't equal out in my mind for two planes, heck even one of this size second hand seems slightly off, but at least one is logical to me.

As stated above even though AerSale does to maintenance, I would not be at all surprised if suddenly the franchise realized they'd might have bitten off more then they can chew with two.

I do grant all less dramatic options, ie off season storage and maintenance are perfectly valid too.

You can't run any air operation of any size without a spare. If one blows an engine on the ramp at BOS do they just cancel the game?
 
EvanWSFO
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Re: Patriots already selling one of the team 767s?

Mon Apr 02, 2018 9:44 pm

lavalampluva wrote:
Have two seemed a little much. One widebody should be plenty. Even for an NFL team.


I never understood two aircraft either. Perhaps one is reserved for Tom Brady's ego. :duck:
 
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kearnet
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Re: Patriots already selling one of the team 767s?

Mon Apr 02, 2018 10:41 pm

32andBelow wrote:
kearnet wrote:
KGRB wrote:
And when their one plane goes on MX, then what? It's not like DL, AA, and UA can get them a widebody at a moment's notice.


I actually have to agree with lavalampluva, especially now that I know they can't use them for charter ops in the off season, they don't have that many away games that a second one would be that critical.

What is critical is that they do need be at the way games on time, but so does every other team who doesn't own there own planes.

Even with the mountains of money Kraft and Co. have, the cost/value equation doesn't equal out in my mind for two planes, heck even one of this size second hand seems slightly off, but at least one is logical to me.

As stated above even though AerSale does to maintenance, I would not be at all surprised if suddenly the franchise realized they'd might have bitten off more then they can chew with two.

I do grant all less dramatic options, ie off season storage and maintenance are perfectly valid too.

You can't run any air operation of any size without a spare. If one blows an engine on the ramp at BOS do they just cancel the game?


But that begs the question of how the second aircraft is kept on stand by: do they do as Fedex does and have it circling nearby just on the off chance they might need it to swoop in? I know AA and a few other carriers stopped doing sports charters, which I assume means other teams use a dedicated charter like Miami Air who would have spare planes too, which assuming they they're not doing the fedex spare plane thing, they'd be delayed regardless as the backup plane as to get to them. The only solution in this case is if they keep the backup based in PVD with the primary during the season, that is kinda logical I guess. Anyone know for sure if this is how they run them?

I'm also wondering if anyone can roughly give a break down of cost estimates between Ownership (assuming 2 used 767s), dedicated charter (like Miami Air, ect), and commercial charter (AA, UA, ect)
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itchief
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Re: Patriots already selling one of the team 767s?

Mon Apr 02, 2018 10:50 pm

EvanWSFO wrote:
lavalampluva wrote:
Have two seemed a little much. One widebody should be plenty. Even for an NFL team.


I never understood two aircraft either. Perhaps one is reserved for Tom Brady's ego. :duck:


Robert Kraft
Net worth
6.2 billion USD
Maybe 2 used 767's is not that big of a deal.
 
EvanWSFO
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Re: Patriots already selling one of the team 767s?

Mon Apr 02, 2018 11:30 pm

itchief wrote:
EvanWSFO wrote:
lavalampluva wrote:
Have two seemed a little much. One widebody should be plenty. Even for an NFL team.


I never understood two aircraft either. Perhaps one is reserved for Tom Brady's ego. :duck:


Robert Kraft
Net worth
6.2 billion USD
Maybe 2 used 767's is not that big of a deal.


For the record, I was joking. The Pats are one of my favorite teams.
 
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sq421
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Re: Patriots already selling one of the team 767s?

Tue Apr 03, 2018 10:06 am

kjeld0d wrote:
kearnet wrote:
Even with the mountains of money Kraft and Co. have, the cost/value equation doesn't equal out in my mind for two planes, heck even one of this size second hand seems slightly off, but at least one is logical to me.


I can imagine they'd have to sell alot of peanut butter and mac and cheese to pay for a couple of 767s!


Robert Kraft has nothing to do with Kraft Foods (Kraft Heinz), the guys selling Mac & Cheese
 
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Goodyear
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Re: Patriots already selling one of the team 767s?

Tue Apr 03, 2018 10:23 am

Maintenance.
Filler
Filler
 
AirNovaBAe146
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Re: Patriots already selling one of the team 767s?

Tue Apr 03, 2018 12:08 pm

The way it was presented in media articles when the 767s were first rolled out last summer, it almost made it appear that doing charters for other large-sized groups was a part of the business plan. That is why I was surprised to learn of the limitations of FAR 125, the section they are operating under. I'd always figured they'd have more grandiose ambitions. The Krafts have been in the avante garde of NFL owners in terms of wringing as much $$$ from their NFL ownership position as possible, such as Patriot Place Mall, the NE Revolution, concerts at Gillette Stadium, or other ventures their connections would enable such as DraftKings, so I figured this was something in a similar vein.
 
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Pilawt
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Re: Patriots already selling one of the team 767s?

Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:17 am

It's over on the west side of GYR now. It may be there a while.

Image
 
Zambone
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Re: Patriots already selling one of the team 767s?

Thu May 17, 2018 12:27 am

It is always entertaining to listen to internet thoughts.

First of all there never was a tailstrike, just a picture of a high attitude landing with lot's of smoke obscuring the actual view., GYR may have been installing the interior improvements specified by the aircraft owners, which is what always happens with the high end jobs.

All 76 and 75 aircraft need the nitrogen generation system installed by way of a Boeing supplied kit, so some MX time will be experienced by all 76/75 operator's as Boeing finally starts delivering the extremely late kits to operators.

And lastly who says you can't fly for hire under Part 125, you just can not solicit business, if someone calls you you can pretty much do anything but sell tickets to individuals or enter into common carriage.

Man guys, there sure is a lack of knowledge base out there these days.
 
UA444
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Re: Patriots already selling one of the team 767s?

Thu May 17, 2018 1:16 am

Maybe they’ll paint Brady getting stripped sacked in the Super bowl on the tail.
 
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chrisnh
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Re: Patriots already selling one of the team 767s?

Thu May 17, 2018 1:32 am

UA444 wrote:
Maybe they’ll paint Brady getting stripped sacked in the Super bowl on the tail.


Or Donny McNabb throwing up that other time these two teams faced each other. The Boy never was the same.
 
ctrabs0114
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Re: Patriots already selling one of the team 767s?

Thu May 17, 2018 4:18 am

kjeld0d wrote:
kearnet wrote:
Even with the mountains of money Kraft and Co. have, the cost/value equation doesn't equal out in my mind for two planes, heck even one of this size second hand seems slightly off, but at least one is logical to me.


I can imagine they'd have to sell alot of peanut butter and mac and cheese to pay for a couple of 767s!


Robert Kraft is the chairman and CEO of the Kraft Group, which is in no way affiliated with the Kraft Heinz foods company.
2018: BWI, PIT, MDW, MCI, STL, DAL, ATL, BNA
 
jetwet1
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Re: Patriots already selling one of the team 767s?

Thu May 17, 2018 4:38 am

kjeld0d wrote:

I can imagine they'd have to sell alot of peanut butter and mac and cheese to pay for a couple of 767s!


Wrong Kraft, this Kraft was in the paper products business.
 
EvanWSFO
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Re: Patriots already selling one of the team 767s?

Thu May 17, 2018 5:28 am

UA444 wrote:
Maybe the embarrassment from the Super Bowl was too much to handle? Hopefully.


I seriously doubt a Super Bowl loss has anything to do with it. Five SB titles under a single QB is pretty significant. It may just be cheaper to charter flights than operate their own aircraft.
 
marcory
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Re: Patriots already selling one of the team 767s?

Thu May 17, 2018 9:43 am

jetwet1 wrote:
kjeld0d wrote:

I can imagine they'd have to sell alot of peanut butter and mac and cheese to pay for a couple of 767s!


Wrong Kraft, this Kraft was in the paper products business.


It's conceivable that Robert Kraft's company (International Forest Products) makes the boxes for Kraft Mac n'Cheese, but that would be the extent of his involvement in the food business.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Patriots already selling one of the team 767s?

Tue May 22, 2018 8:36 pm

Pilawt wrote:
It's over on the west side of GYR now. It may be there a while.


Looks like it flew to ILN today. Cmairplaneman pointed out the movement over on the Amazon Fleet Growth web site, where, among other things, we follow the line of conversions of ex-AA and other 767 aircraft into freighters by CAM (Cargo Aircraft Management), an ATSG subsidiary. ATSG also owns AMES, an MRO at ILN. AMES owns PEMCO in Florida, so it has that operation and the one at ILN. The one at ILN does all the maintenance on CAM's fleet, as well as contract maintenance for Delta and other carriers. AMES typically works on CAM's recently-purchased used aircraft before CAM sends them to TLV for conversion by IAI/Bedek.

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/UDG ... /KGYR/KILN

This case, however, has nothing to do with conversion. AMES did a bunch of work on the other Team 125 aircraft, and I guess is their current maintenance provider. Looks like AMES will be doing some work on 225NE now. I haven't been following carefully-enough to know if Dean Baldwin Painting there in GYR had added the fully livery to 225NE during its month or so at GYR, or whether the aircraft was just at GYR for storage.
 
Antarius
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Re: Patriots already selling one of the team 767s?

Tue May 22, 2018 8:46 pm

UA444 wrote:
Maybe they’ll paint Brady getting stripped sacked in the Super bowl on the tail.


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wjcandee
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Re: Patriots already selling one of the team 767s?

Tue May 22, 2018 8:58 pm

Zambone wrote:

And lastly who says you can't fly for hire under Part 125, you just can not solicit business, if someone calls you you can pretty much do anything but sell tickets to individuals or enter into common carriage.



It's not that simple. Part 125 doesn't preclude you receiving compensation per se, but it absolutely precludes you from operating in common carriage. The line between private carriage and common carriage, while often obvious, can actually be pretty-thin. As you point out, soliciting is forbidden (and makes you a common carrier), but something a little more slippery, "holding out", is the basic inquiry. However, there is much more than that. So it's not like if someone affirmatively calls the Patriots, that's all that's necessary to permit them to charter the aircraft. Just letting the media know that the business plan includes the possibility of operating for somebody else, in a high-profile situation like this, would almost certainly be "holding out", which would then preclude the flights under Part 125.

Here's the circular that the FAA still uses to explain the guidelines they use when determining whether someone is a common carrier or not. As you can see, almost no individual fact is dispositive; it's one of those things where the FAA uses its best judgment as to which side of the line the proposed operation falls, given all the factors. https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/med ... 20-12A.pdf

Bottom line: operation moving employees and guests of any Kraft Group-related company or team, and any purely-charitable endeavor moving people who aren't paying for the flight, would almost-certainly be fine. Beyond that (like carrying say another Boston team or NFL Team [although I doubt another NFL team would want to be seen in a plane that says Patriots all over it]), they have to be very careful. Suppose I call up and want to use them to fly my State Farm employee winners and their families on their annual trip to Europe; it would be cool to be able to use the Patriots plane(s), and I will pay them for the privilege. Maybe they can do that (it was my idea, after all, and I call not knowing whether they offer that service), or maybe they can't (too close to a general public thing, and most winners would presume that the aircraft was operating under the same rules as an airline).

It's one of those things that one has to wonder whether it's worth borrowing the trouble.
 
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Pilawt
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Re: Patriots already selling one of the team 767s?

Tue May 29, 2018 3:43 am

wjcandee wrote:
I haven't been following carefully-enough to know if Dean Baldwin Painting there in GYR had added the fully livery to 225NE during its month or so at GYR, or whether the aircraft was just at GYR for storage.

Thanks for the updated information.

No additional markings had been added to the airplane as of Thursday 17 May:

Image
 
727LOVER
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Re: Patriots already selling one of the team 767s?

Tue May 29, 2018 4:11 am

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