I found it interesting today in the Sky magazine that the 757-200 was profiled. They referred to the 75S as the "sleepy" since it has the flat seats in J. It was a nice write up. But I did notice the tail number ended with TW. I can't find the number instantly (oddly, DL doesn't have the magazine in the SC). Aren't these all purchased from TWA? I seem to recall those 757s had the old drop down from the ceiling TVs that never worked. I am guessing, if I am correct, these are some of the last TWA planes operating in the US?

jbmitt wrote:

Delta would also operate ex-TWA 717s

I've only seen 717s ending with AT (so I presume from Air Tran). Would the ex-TWA end TW? I'll keep a look out for them if so.

davescj wrote:

I found it interesting today in the Sky magazine that the 757-200 was profiled. They referred to the 75S as the "sleepy" since it has the flat seats in J. It was a nice write up. But I did notice the tail number ended with TW. I can't find the number instantly (oddly, DL doesn't have the magazine in the SC). Aren't these all purchased from TWA? I seem to recall those 757s had the old drop down from the ceiling TVs that never worked. I am guessing, if I am correct, these are some of the last TWA planes operating in the US?

AA operated them up until ~10 years ago when their leases expired. They were not renewed because they have PW engines instead of RR like the rest of AA’s fleet. DL got them them (not sure if leased or purchased from leasor).

There are a few more recent non-TWA 75Ss in DL fleet iirc.

Delta would also operate ex-TWA 717s

Delta does indeed still have some of those TWA 752s and the majority of them operate JFK-Transcon, but also JFK-TATL, BOS-SFO/DUB, DCA-LAX, and RDU-CDG in the winter IINM.

Delta also has a few TWA 717s that AirTran had acquired many years ago. You can tell if one is an AirTran original (-2BD) or a TWA original (-231).

Also, quite a few of AA's MD-83s that are still flying around are originally from TWA.

jbmitt wrote:

Delta would also operate ex-TWA 717s

What does this have to do about a thread regarding former TWA 757s in Delta's fleet?

Brick wrote:

jbmitt wrote:

Delta would also operate ex-TWA 717s

What does this have to do about a thread regarding former TWA 757s in Delta's fleet?

The very last question the OP asks is if the exTWA 757s are among the last exTWA planes operating in the US.

Polot wrote:

Brick wrote:

jbmitt wrote:

Delta would also operate ex-TWA 717s

What does this have to do about a thread regarding former TWA 757s in Delta's fleet?

The very last question the OP asks is if the exTWA 757s are among the last exTWA planes operating in the US.

Indeed I missed that last sentence in the OP. My apologies to jbmitt...

davescj wrote:

I found it interesting today in the Sky magazine that the 757-200 was profiled. They referred to the 75S as the "sleepy" since it has the flat seats in J. It was a nice write up. But I did notice the tail number ended with TW. I can't find the number instantly (oddly, DL doesn't have the magazine in the SC). Aren't these all purchased from TWA?

DL currently has 18 75S in their fleet, of which 17 of them came from TWA/AA. Of the 17, all of them have reg # ending in TW except one (N704X). The 18th one is registered as N624AG (it began life with AM back in 1993 and then went thru various operators before joining the DL fleet).

FYI, all the 75S had flat-bed Delta One seats installed in 2014-15, and all Y seats have the latest large Panasonic screen PTVs.

We have flown on them TATL. If I hadn't seen the tail number, I would never have known. Props to DL for the upkeep.

Did they reverse the cockpit switches in the TWA birds after they went to AA?

The overhead panel on all TWA aircraft were "up for on", which is what most of the world does/did, whereas AA (and most major US carriers at the time) were "forward for on". An important human factors issue.

FWIW, the number of the plane in the Sky Magazine is N702TW. And it’s longest scheduled route is 3830 miles JFK- Dakar, Senegal.

wjcandee wrote:

Did they reverse the cockpit switches in the TWA birds after they went to AA?

The overhead panel on all TWA aircraft were "up for on", which is what most of the world does/did, whereas AA (and most major US carriers at the time) were "forward for on". An important human factors issue.

Not positive but I think TWA did away with that practice some years before they shut down. FWIW Lufthansa was the same once upon a time as they to treated the OH panel as a vertical panel.

Loved flying those TW 757s with the small cabin in the back, as long as I didn't have to deplane fairly quickly. Otherwise, loved sitting back there.

I think Delta has a few ex-SQ 752s as well. N750AT comes to mind... and it was an ATA frame too. 11/1984 to Singapore, 12/1989 to American Trans Air, and then 9/1996 to Delta.

N751AT and N752AT as well, same story.

gdg9 wrote:

I think Delta has a few ex-SQ 752s as well. N750AT comes to mind... and it was an ATA frame too. 11/1984 to Singapore, 12/1989 to American Trans Air, and then 9/1996 to Delta.

N751AT and N752AT as well, same story.

All four of the ex- SQ birds are now retired.

The TW 757s have allowed DL to fly to a number of markets that would never make sense with a 763, so these are great birds. I personally do not like flying across the Atlantic in coach on a narrowbody, but I do appreciate the additional choice in destinations and extra capacity the 757s provide. I'm hoping the A321 serves as a good replacement for these aircraft whenever they are taken out of service.

I'm personally facinated how certain airlines buy used wisely, but also own new. In my opinion every airline has 3 fleets:
1. Intense utilization where buying new saves money.
2. Intermediate utilization where either works. Older aircraft protect versus interest rate spikes. Newer protect against oil price spikes.
3. Low utilization which is only economical with old aircraft.

What is the utilization of these ex-TWA birds! The higher the utilization, the sooner an A321LR is more profitable...

usdcaguy wrote:

The TW 757s have allowed DL to fly to a number of markets that would never make sense with a 763, so these are great birds. I personally do not like flying across the Atlantic in coach on a narrowbody, but I do appreciate the additional choice in destinations and extra capacity the 757s provide. I'm hoping the A321 serves as a good replacement for these aircraft whenever they are taken out of service.

The birds prove a need for long/thin. 3,850nmis amazing (and probably very payload limited).

I don't see the difference in narrowbody vs. widebody coach, so bring on fragmentation! I'm very enthusiastic about the A321LR.

Lightsaber

Brick wrote:

Polot wrote:

Brick wrote:

What does this have to do about a thread regarding former TWA 757s in Delta's fleet?

The very last question the OP asks is if the exTWA 757s are among the last exTWA planes operating in the US.

Indeed I missed that last sentence in the OP. My apologies to jbmitt...

But why would you take that attitude in any case? The comment added to my knowledge about the provenance of Delta's various airframes, and I welcome it even if the OP had not asked his/her final question. I don't understand all the demeaning comments made about others' posts on a.net. We are all interested in the same field of civil aviation - why not be nice to each other?

[quote="Polot"][quote="davescj"]
AA operated them up until ~10 years ago when their leases expired. They were not renewed because they have PW engines instead of RR like the rest of AA’s fleet. DL got them them (not sure if leased or purchased from leasor).



As a side note, when AA operated the ex TW 75’s, because of this the P&W engines were maintained by Delta under their operating certificate and benefited from DL’s experience operating these engines.

It was not cost effective for AA to set up and maintain these engines under their operating certificate for a small fleet of engines that they knew they would be getting rid of when the airplanes leases expired

JetStar

jetstar wrote:

Polot wrote:

davescj wrote:

AA operated them up until ~10 years ago when their leases expired. They were not renewed because they have PW engines instead of RR like the rest of AA’s fleet. DL got them them (not sure if leased or purchased from leasor).



As a side note, when AA operated the ex TW 75’s, because of this the P&W engines were maintained by Delta under their operating certificate and benefited from DL’s experience operating these engines.

It was not cost effective for AA to set up and maintain these engines under their operating certificate for a small fleet of engines that they knew they would be getting rid of when the airplanes leases expired

JetStar

FWIW in exchange for doing the 2000s on the the AA fleet Delta sent its Trent 800s to TAESL/AA for overhaul.

spinotter wrote:

Brick wrote:

Polot wrote:

The very last question the OP asks is if the exTWA 757s are among the last exTWA planes operating in the US.

Indeed I missed that last sentence in the OP. My apologies to jbmitt...

But why would you take that attitude in any case? The comment added to my knowledge about the provenance of Delta's various airframes, and I welcome it even if the OP had not asked his/her final question. I don't understand all the demeaning comments made about others' posts on a.net. We are all interested in the same field of civil aviation - why not be nice to each other?

Amen

As an AvGeek, I just love to look up at Delta's fleet history since they are averse to mopping up a diverse fleet from different OEM. Those different Boeing customer codes makes DL's fleet interesting. DL 757-200 fleet has/ used to have -231, -232, -212, 251, 2Q8, and 26D.

767 fleet has 232, -3P6, 332, 332ER, 324, and -432.

davescj wrote:

jbmitt wrote:

Delta would also operate ex-TWA 717s

I've only seen 717s ending with AT (so I presume from Air Tran). Would the ex-TWA end TW? I'll keep a look out for them if so.

I've seen a couple N###DL 717s. Most likely the over seas acquisitions???

I flew on AA in July 2005 and was on an exTW 757 SMF-DFW. I remember it having drop down TVs and only learning years later the only AA 757s that had that were the TWA ones.

AA is also operating ex TW MD-80s, some of the last on the line.

And doesn’t ABX air or DHL have a few 767-231Fs?

SEAxSANxBOS wrote:

davescj wrote:

jbmitt wrote:

Delta would also operate ex-TWA 717s

I've only seen 717s ending with AT (so I presume from Air Tran). Would the ex-TWA end TW? I'll keep a look out for them if so.

I've seen a couple N###DL 717s. Most likely the over seas acquisitions???

Those are the ex blueone birds.

UA444 wrote:

I flew on AA in July 2005 and was on an exTW 757 SMF-DFW. I remember it having drop down TVs and only learning years later the only AA 757s that had that were the TWA ones.

AA is also operating ex TW MD-80s, some of the last on the line.

And doesn’t ABX air or DHL have a few 767-231Fs?

You are correct, ABX Air did have a few 767-231's but they have since transferred over to Atlas Air.

juliuswong wrote:

As an AvGeek, I just love to look up at Delta's fleet history since they are averse to mopping up a diverse fleet from different OEM. Those different Boeing customer codes makes DL's fleet interesting. DL 757-200 fleet has/ used to have -231, -232, -212, 251, 2Q8, and 26D.

767 fleet has 232, -3P6, 332, 332ER, 324, and -432.

You could have a lot of fun with the MD90s, too! Long list of previous operators there.

A related question, why is it that Delta decided to use these particular a/c for their transcon/tatl 757 subfleet? Is there something in particular about these aircraft or engines that make them better suited for the longer runs? Was it just age & cycle count? Just curious if anyone has insight as to why they chose these as opposed to others.

backseatdriver wrote:

juliuswong wrote:

As an AvGeek, I just love to look up at Delta's fleet history since they are averse to mopping up a diverse fleet from different OEM. Those different Boeing customer codes makes DL's fleet interesting. DL 757-200 fleet has/ used to have -231, -232, -212, 251, 2Q8, and 26D.

767 fleet has 232, -3P6, 332, 332ER, 324, and -432.

You could have a lot of fun with the MD90s, too! Long list of previous operators there.

A related question, why is it that Delta decided to use these particular a/c for their transcon/tatl 757 subfleet? Is there something in particular about these aircraft or engines that make them better suited for the longer runs? Was it just age & cycle count? Just curious if anyone has insight as to why they chose these as opposed to others.

These were DL’s first ETOPS 757’s. None of the existing DL fleet were ETOPS certified so the TWA birds were acquired for TATL expansion.

NW747-400 wrote:

backseatdriver wrote:

juliuswong wrote:

As an AvGeek, I just love to look up at Delta's fleet history since they are averse to mopping up a diverse fleet from different OEM. Those different Boeing customer codes makes DL's fleet interesting. DL 757-200 fleet has/ used to have -231, -232, -212, 251, 2Q8, and 26D.

767 fleet has 232, -3P6, 332, 332ER, 324, and -432.

You could have a lot of fun with the MD90s, too! Long list of previous operators there.

A related question, why is it that Delta decided to use these particular a/c for their transcon/tatl 757 subfleet? Is there something in particular about these aircraft or engines that make them better suited for the longer runs? Was it just age & cycle count? Just curious if anyone has insight as to why they chose these as opposed to others.

These were DL’s first ETOPS 757’s. None of the existing DL fleet were ETOPS certified so the TWA birds were acquired for TATL expansion.

Yep. TWA was actually one of the first airlines to truly embrace flying the 757 transatlantic, which they did as soon as they received them. I remember the STL flight attendants being especially thrilled about this because they were the first base trained on the 757, so they got to fly transatlantic flights on the 757s out of JFK until the JFK crew base was trained on them.

I flew on the ex-TW 757s a bunch after the merger when I lived in STL. AA seemed to favor operating them out of STL, probably for operational/mx reasons. They were much nicer aircraft than the native AA 757s in that era. They had one more exit door than AA's did so if you could get those exit row seats, you'd have a good four feet of legroom.

NW747-400 wrote:

These were DL’s first ETOPS 757’s. None of the existing DL fleet were ETOPS certified so the TWA birds were acquired for TATL expansion.

The four ex-ATA 757s were ETOPS certified prior to the acquisition of the ex-TWA birds, but they were limited to west coast to Hawaii routes with occasional forays down to South America. They were the first 757s used with a Business Class configuration, as the seats up front had foot rests and more leg room than standard domestic FC seats. The early attempts at using them as a short/mid range Business Elite product didn't workout very well and instead they got re-marketed as domestic FC and spent a lot of their time flying to the outer islands from LAX.

777PHX wrote:

I flew on the ex-TW 757s a bunch after the merger when I lived in STL. AA seemed to favor operating them out of STL, probably for operational/mx reasons. They were much nicer aircraft than the native AA 757s in that era. They had one more exit door than AA's did so if you could get those exit row seats, you'd have a good four feet of legroom.

They did not always touch STL. I flew on one nonstop from DFW to LGA in 2003. Wonderful flight. Smooth, not so noisy, comfy. I was sitting by the window on the last row in Y-Class before the last section. I remember the galley and the emergency exits just behind the wings of the airplane, on the ex-TWA 757.

A few years later, I flew on ex-TWA/AA Delta 757s from JFK to BRU and back to JFK.

davescj wrote:

jbmitt wrote:

Delta would also operate ex-TWA 717s

I've only seen 717s ending with AT (so I presume from Air Tran). Would the ex-TWA end TW? I'll keep a look out for them if so.

Yes, it does. Ex TWA planes end in that. I've seen old TWA MD-80's operating for American with TW at the end of their tail number.

asqx wrote:

NW747-400 wrote:

These were DL’s first ETOPS 757’s. None of the existing DL fleet were ETOPS certified so the TWA birds were acquired for TATL expansion.

The four ex-ATA 757s were ETOPS certified prior to the acquisition of the ex-TWA birds, but they were limited to west coast to Hawaii routes with occasional forays down to South America. They were the first 757s used with a Business Class configuration, as the seats up front had foot rests and more leg room than standard domestic FC seats. The early attempts at using them as a short/mid range Business Elite product didn't workout very well and instead they got re-marketed as domestic FC and spent a lot of their time flying to the outer islands from LAX.

Oh I forgot all about the 75V’s. I flew N752AT days before she was retired. So far it’s the only airplane I’ve flown older than me.

UAL747422 wrote:

davescj wrote:

jbmitt wrote:

Delta would also operate ex-TWA 717s

I've only seen 717s ending with AT (so I presume from Air Tran). Would the ex-TWA end TW? I'll keep a look out for them if so.

Yes, it does. Ex TWA planes end in that. I've seen old TWA MD-80's operating for American with TW at the end of their tail number.

Not always ththe case. For the AA and DL jets they kept the original TW tail numbers, but I believe the 717s that went to Air Tran were the-registered for whatever reason. Please correct me if I’m wrong. As mentioned earlier in that case, the best way to tell is the identifier for the aircraft. A 717-231 was a TWA bird.

If the UA/US merger had gone ahead the plan was that an enlarged UA would have swapped the ex-US RR powered 757s (certainly the 757-2B7s) with AA for the ex-TW PW powered 757s.

777PHX wrote:

TWA was actually one of the first airlines to truly embrace flying the 757 transatlantic, which they did as soon as they received them. I remember the STL flight attendants being especially thrilled about this because they were the first base trained on the 757, so they got to fly transatlantic flights on the 757s out of JFK until the JFK crew base was trained on them.

After selling its Charter subsidiary, Caledonian Airways (KT), in 1995 BA had the ex-KT 757-236s that were ETOPS equipped returned. KT had used these TATL to Florida (with fuel stops at Bangor) but BA put them in use on BHX-JFK (later extended to YYZ) and GLA-JFK-BOS. I personally think BA missed a trick - it could have possibly opened up more regional flying from MAN (twice daily MAN-JFK for example in place of the 767-336ER), Islamabad (instead of LGW-MAN-ISB allowing the LGW flight to go non-stop on a smaller aircraft). But as this was also the time it was building up LGW to operate as a dual hub alongside LHR I think the 757 could have been used to open up more secondary routes to support the LGW hub.

I recall TW using the 757 on JFK-LIS and JFK-BCN - it certainly seemed a good way to try and keep longhaul out of JFK going.

Threads like this are the reason I hate Boeing's decision to eliminate customer codes in their aircraft identifiers. Lot of fascinating history.

lightsaber wrote:

I'm personally facinated how certain airlines buy used wisely, but also own new. In my opinion every airline has 3 fleets:
1. Intense utilization where buying new saves money.
2. Intermediate utilization where either works. Older aircraft protect versus interest rate spikes. Newer protect against oil price spikes.
3. Low utilization which is only economical with old aircraft.

What is the utilization of these ex-TWA birds! The higher the utilization, the sooner an A321LR is more profitable...

usdcaguy wrote:

The TW 757s have allowed DL to fly to a number of markets that would never make sense with a 763, so these are great birds. I personally do not like flying across the Atlantic in coach on a narrowbody, but I do appreciate the additional choice in destinations and extra capacity the 757s provide. I'm hoping the A321 serves as a good replacement for these aircraft whenever they are taken out of service.

The birds prove a need for long/thin. 3,850nmis amazing (and probably very payload limited).

I don't see the difference in narrowbody vs. widebody coach, so bring on fragmentation! I'm very enthusiastic about the A321LR.

Lightsaber

I believe this is correct for several mega airlines, yes. There is a constant frontier of financial optimality that gives you the big 3 fleet types. Another factor is, to run old aircraft you must invest in more skilled fleet management personnel. Any startup airline can purchase a gold maintenance plan from Airbus. It takes much more expertise to purchase used 757s or MD90s and refurb / maintain them to a highly drilled scheduled carrier dispatch rate, and with nice interior. LH and its well maintained, older widebodies are another example of such.

American 767 wrote:

777PHX wrote:

I flew on the ex-TW 757s a bunch after the merger when I lived in STL. AA seemed to favor operating them out of STL, probably for operational/mx reasons. They were much nicer aircraft than the native AA 757s in that era. They had one more exit door than AA's did so if you could get those exit row seats, you'd have a good four feet of legroom.

They did not always touch STL. I flew on one nonstop from DFW to LGA in 2003. Wonderful flight. Smooth, not so noisy, comfy. I was sitting by the window on the last row in Y-Class before the last section. I remember the galley and the emergency exits just behind the wings of the airplane, on the ex-TWA 757.

A few years later, I flew on ex-TWA/AA Delta 757s from JFK to BRU and back to JFK.

I deadheaded from DFW to LAX in August 2002 on a former TWA 757 (752 was AA's internal code for the 757-231 for flight attendants). It was crewed by former TWA flight attendants and pilots, and was operated by TWA LLC, a subsidiary of AA. The safety video was the TWA 757-200 safety video, and the seats were still covered in TWA's upholstery.

I agree. The 752 operated many routes, many of which did not involve STL. I remember it operating BOS-DFW and IIRC, ONT-DFW.

Out of curiosity for everyone, TWA operated 27 B757-200 during its existence.

17 B757-231 were built for TWA. Of these,
8 are now with Delta
3 each for Uzbekistan Airlines and FedEx
2 are now with Azur Air
1 is with Royal Flight

They also operated 10 B757-2Q8. Of these,
9 are now with Delta
1 is now with USAF

davescj wrote:

FWIW, the number of the plane in the Sky Magazine is N702TW. And it’s longest scheduled route is 3830 miles JFK- Dakar, Senegal.

II flew N702TW in May 1997 LGA-STLand back again. Glad to find out it's still flying Lots of good memorys.

gdg9 wrote:

I think Delta has a few ex-SQ 752s as well.

I've been on a few SQ's 752 to PEN and JKT. Like the 727, the 752 never lasted in SQ.

trnswrld wrote:

For the AA and DL jets they kept the original TW tail numbers, but I believe the 717s that went to Air Tran were the-registered for whatever reason. Please correct me if I’m wrong.

The ex-TWA 717s at Delta are fleet numbers 9563 thru 9586 and the registrations are: N936AT, N935AT, N934AT, N933AT, N930AT, N932AT, N607AT, N929AT, N928AT, N927AT, N926AT, N925AT, N924AT, N608AT, N921AT, N920AT, N919AT, N915AT, N910AT, N906AT, N987AT, N986AT, N985AT, and N937AT.

UAL747422 wrote:

Yes, it does. Ex TWA planes end in that. I've seen old TWA MD-80's operating for American with TW at the end of their tail number.

Mostly. When they couldn't get the NxxxTW registrations they wanted, TWA just used the fleet number and a letter. There's a large chunk of MD-80s that are just 9000 series numbers that have a letter at the end which are also ex-TWA. Not sure where American is at in their retirement with the MD-80s but I saw a couple of the ex-TWA birds in DFW when I was passing through there in recent months. If you can't see the registration the AA fleet numbers start with 4W, 4X, and 4Y for the ex-TW MD-80s.