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george77300
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New Large Jet Airways Boeing 737 MAX order

Wed Apr 04, 2018 9:05 pm

Jet Airways ordered another 75, 737 MAX aircraft. Total order now at 150.

Anyone know if this is the 75 unidentified order from last year? Or is that their 1st 75?

Source: http://boeing.mediaroom.com/2018-04-04- ... -Airplanes
 
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zkojq
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Re: New Large Jet Airways Boeing 737 MAX order

Wed Apr 04, 2018 10:51 pm

So they can afford to buy new planes but not to pay their staff? If that's not a sign of mismanagement, i don't know what is.
First to fly the 787-9
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: New Large Jet Airways Boeing 737 MAX order

Wed Apr 04, 2018 11:59 pm

zkojq wrote:
So they can afford to buy new planes but not to pay their staff? If that's not a sign of mismanagement, i don't know what is.


In India, airlines can lease/finance planes from global financiers at a very competitive rate, say 4%-5%, but airlines cannot borrow for working capital loans from global sources, the only option is to borrow from local banks at 15%.

There is some archaic rule limiting total (all carriers) external borrowing to $1B and individual carrier to $300M.

So you can bring in a brand new plane, but you cannot crew or buy ATF.
All posts are just opinions.
 
Newbiepilot
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Re: New Large Jet Airways Boeing 737 MAX order

Thu Apr 05, 2018 2:04 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
zkojq wrote:
So they can afford to buy new planes but not to pay their staff? If that's not a sign of mismanagement, i don't know what is.


In India, airlines can lease/finance planes from global financiers at a very competitive rate, say 4%-5%, but airlines cannot borrow for working capital loans from global sources, the only option is to borrow from local banks at 15%.

There is some archaic rule limiting total (all carriers) external borrowing to $1B and individual carrier to $300M.

So you can bring in a brand new plane, but you cannot crew or buy ATF.


Thanks for explaining that. Almost all companies use short term debt to help deal with inconsistent cash flow throughout the year. Airplane financing is a separate financing market. This is the time of the year when airlines have the least cash. Revenue from summer operations peak season has not fully started coming in yet and the high cost of maintenance from low season heavy checks can be a burden. Both Air India and Jet Airways are having cash flow issues right now. While missing payroll is never good, I could see the airline still being healthy enough to make a big order. I have heard of archaic financing restrictions in India before.
 
behramjee
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Re: New Large Jet Airways Boeing 737 MAX order

Thu Apr 05, 2018 7:10 am

As stated in the Boeing press release clearly, this is an incremental order for 75 additional B737MAXs so in total 150 have been ordered.

It doesn't though provide a breakdown as to how many are MAX8s, 9s and 10s. However a vast majority are for the MAX8 but I expect a sizeable amount of MAX10s to be part of the mix.
 
binayak
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Re: New Large Jet Airways Boeing 737 MAX order

Thu Apr 05, 2018 1:31 pm

Their plans are to add new short haul int'l routes besides expanding in domestic sector . Routes like BOM-NBO , BLR-HKG are on their cards. Hope this new variant helps them reduce operational costs and turn loss making domestic routes to profitable ones.
The best preparation for tomorrow is doing your best today
 
JOYA380B747
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Re: New Large Jet Airways Boeing 737 MAX order

Thu Apr 05, 2018 2:34 pm

First MAX deliveries, which I'm assuming would be from the previous order, start in which year?
India's biggest loss w.r.t global aviation (so far) - Being an Australasia-Europe stopover.
 
anshabhi
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Re: New Large Jet Airways Boeing 737 MAX order

Thu Apr 05, 2018 2:56 pm

JOYA380B747 wrote:
First MAX deliveries, which I'm assuming would be from the previous order, start in which year?

June this year. 9W has already started planning nrw routes with them

I just find it amazing the massive growth that Indian aviation sector has achieved in such a short time. If it was 2009-2010 and 9W had placed this order back then, surely a lot more discussion on the order itself like viability, size of market etc would have taken place.
Here though most of us are not at all surprised by this order and it feels like just a small thing. Which is amazing!!
 
binayak
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Re: New Large Jet Airways Boeing 737 MAX order

Thu Apr 05, 2018 3:01 pm

anshabhi wrote:
JOYA380B747 wrote:
First MAX deliveries, which I'm assuming would be from the previous order, start in which year?

June this year. 9W has already started planning nrw routes with them

I just find it amazing the massive growth that Indian aviation sector has achieved in such a short time. If it was 2009-2010 and 9W had placed this order back then, surely a lot more discussion on the order itself like viability, size of market etc would have taken place.
Here though most of us are not at all surprised by this order and it feels like just a small thing. Which is amazing!!

Your comment reminds me of the 2005 order of 6E and how we made fun of a "mere start up" airline overestimating the Indian market!!!
The best preparation for tomorrow is doing your best today
 
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unrave
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Re: New Large Jet Airways Boeing 737 MAX order

Thu Apr 05, 2018 3:13 pm

anshabhi wrote:

I just find it amazing the massive growth that Indian aviation sector has achieved in such a short time. If it was 2009-2010 and 9W had placed this order back then, surely a lot more discussion on the order itself like viability, size of market etc would have taken place.
Here though most of us are not at all surprised by this order and it feels like just a small thing. Which is amazing!!


Indian carriers have placed orders for 951 next gen narrow body aircraft. 10 years back the entire Indian domestic market had less than 100 aircraft
17April2019: RIP Jet Airways
 
CaliguyNYC
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Re: New Large Jet Airways Boeing 737 MAX order

Thu Apr 05, 2018 3:55 pm

I hope they install lie flat J class in some 737MAX for routes like BOM-NGO. Has any airline installed lie flat in a 737 in 2 by 2 config (so I am excluding a businesses Jet style config). Or are the only single isle with lie flat J 2X2 on the A321 and 757?
 
anshabhi
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Re: New Large Jet Airways Boeing 737 MAX order

Thu Apr 05, 2018 4:04 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
I hope they install lie flat J class in some 737MAX for routes like BOM-NGO. Has any airline installed lie flat in a 737 in 2 by 2 config (so I am excluding a businesses Jet style config). Or are the only single isle with lie flat J 2X2 on the A321 and 757?

Would pose a lot of operational issues that way, as you can't deploy lie flat seats on domestic sector.
Fleet commonality saves a lot of money ...
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: New Large Jet Airways Boeing 737 MAX order

Thu Apr 05, 2018 4:05 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
I hope they install lie flat J class in some 737MAX for routes like BOM-NGO. Has any airline installed lie flat in a 737 in 2 by 2 config (so I am excluding a businesses Jet style config). Or are the only single isle with lie flat J 2X2 on the A321 and 757?


FlyDubai 737 MAX are equipped like this.
 
jbs2886
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Re: New Large Jet Airways Boeing 737 MAX order

Thu Apr 05, 2018 4:34 pm

anshabhi wrote:
CaliguyNYC wrote:
I hope they install lie flat J class in some 737MAX for routes like BOM-NGO. Has any airline installed lie flat in a 737 in 2 by 2 config (so I am excluding a businesses Jet style config). Or are the only single isle with lie flat J 2X2 on the A321 and 757?

Would pose a lot of operational issues that way, as you can't deploy lie flat seats on domestic sector.
Fleet commonality saves a lot of money ...


Why can't you deploy lie flat seats on a domestic sector? US3 and B6 have tons of them flying domestically. So do the Chinese airlines.
 
anshabhi
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Re: New Large Jet Airways Boeing 737 MAX order

Thu Apr 05, 2018 4:53 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
anshabhi wrote:
Would pose a lot of operational issues that way, as you can't deploy lie flat seats on domestic sector.
Fleet commonality saves a lot of money ...


Why can't you deploy lie flat seats on a domestic sector? US3 and B6 have tons of them flying domestically. So do the Chinese airlines.

Well in India the max duration of domestic flights can be only about 3 hours and most trunk routes are 2 hours or less.
 
subramak1
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Re: New Large Jet Airways Boeing 737 MAX order

Thu Apr 05, 2018 7:23 pm

anshabhi wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
anshabhi wrote:
Would pose a lot of operational issues that way, as you can't deploy lie flat seats on domestic sector.
Fleet commonality saves a lot of money ...


Why can't you deploy lie flat seats on a domestic sector? US3 and B6 have tons of them flying domestically. So do the Chinese airlines.

Well in India the max duration of domestic flights can be only about 3 hours and most trunk routes are 2 hours or less.


The only premium routes in India would be

1. DEL BOM - 2 hrs 5 min end to end
2. DEL BLR - 2 hrs 40 mins end to end
3. DEL MAA - 2 hrs 40 mins end to end
4. BOM BLR - 1hr 50 mins
5. BOM MAA - 1 hr 55 mins

These lie flat seats arent required. As it is jet airways and Air India have reduced # of first class seats in domestic sector.

In 2002, 9W B738 had 24 business class and 132 economy class seats . Today, they have 12 Business class and 160 economy seats
Heck even their B737 700 had 20 first class seats and 112 economy seats.

The demand for first class has come down quite a bit ( I dont know why) even as air traffic growth has exploded

Subu
 
Newbiepilot
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Re: New Large Jet Airways Boeing 737 MAX order

Thu Apr 05, 2018 11:59 pm

subramak1 wrote:
anshabhi wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:

Why can't you deploy lie flat seats on a domestic sector? US3 and B6 have tons of them flying domestically. So do the Chinese airlines.

Well in India the max duration of domestic flights can be only about 3 hours and most trunk routes are 2 hours or less.


The only premium routes in India would be

1. DEL BOM - 2 hrs 5 min end to end
2. DEL BLR - 2 hrs 40 mins end to end
3. DEL MAA - 2 hrs 40 mins end to end
4. BOM BLR - 1hr 50 mins
5. BOM MAA - 1 hr 55 mins

These lie flat seats arent required. As it is jet airways and Air India have reduced # of first class seats in domestic sector.

In 2002, 9W B738 had 24 business class and 132 economy class seats . Today, they have 12 Business class and 160 economy seats
Heck even their B737 700 had 20 first class seats and 112 economy seats.

The demand for first class has come down quite a bit ( I dont know why) even as air traffic growth has exploded

Subu

I don’t believe first class demand dropped much. What happened is that economy travel demand has skyrocketed as the middle class grows. There are more flights so therefore the number of first class seats per flight has dropped.
 
subramak1
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Re: New Large Jet Airways Boeing 737 MAX order

Thu Apr 12, 2018 3:58 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
subramak1 wrote:
anshabhi wrote:
Well in India the max duration of domestic flights can be only about 3 hours and most trunk routes are 2 hours or less.


The only premium routes in India would be

1. DEL BOM - 2 hrs 5 min end to end
2. DEL BLR - 2 hrs 40 mins end to end
3. DEL MAA - 2 hrs 40 mins end to end
4. BOM BLR - 1hr 50 mins
5. BOM MAA - 1 hr 55 mins

These lie flat seats arent required. As it is jet airways and Air India have reduced # of first class seats in domestic sector.

In 2002, 9W B738 had 24 business class and 132 economy class seats . Today, they have 12 Business class and 160 economy seats
Heck even their B737 700 had 20 first class seats and 112 economy seats.

The demand for first class has come down quite a bit ( I dont know why) even as air traffic growth has exploded

Subu

I don’t believe first class demand dropped much. What happened is that economy travel demand has skyrocketed as the middle class grows. There are more flights so therefore the number of first class seats per flight has dropped.


That is possible.

Subu
 
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Slash787
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Re: New Large Jet Airways Boeing 737 MAX order

Thu Apr 12, 2018 6:40 pm

So they are not taking the 10 B787's cause there is no space or slots at Bombay Airport, but they will take 150 737Max?
 
binayak
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Re: New Large Jet Airways Boeing 737 MAX order

Fri Apr 13, 2018 5:16 am

Slash787 wrote:
So they are not taking the 10 B787's cause there is no space or slots at Bombay Airport, but they will take 150 737Max?

It's not slots which is stopping 9W from taking the 789s. They wanna first become stable in domestic and short haul market because bleeding in domestic and focussing on only long haul is not good in the long run. The order of 789s have not been cancelled yet which means they will sometime take it.
The 150 737 maxes won't be based in mumbai only. They need to replace their old aircraft , set up strong hub in BLR so for that they need more planes. Plus indian aviation sector is booming so to keep hold of their market share they need to keep on expanding. All the 150 aircraft will be received by them by 2023 . By that time Indian aviation market will be double of its today's size.
The best preparation for tomorrow is doing your best today
 
Planesmart
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Re: New Large Jet Airways Boeing 737 MAX order

Fri Apr 13, 2018 8:13 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
zkojq wrote:
So they can afford to buy new planes but not to pay their staff? If that's not a sign of mismanagement, i don't know what is.


In India, airlines can lease/finance planes from global financiers at a very competitive rate, say 4%-5%, but airlines cannot borrow for working capital loans from global sources, the only option is to borrow from local banks at 15%.

If not paying staff, a technical breach of financial covenants on existing loans and leases? Technical, because if they did pay, covenants could be breached.
 
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unrave
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Re: New Large Jet Airways Boeing 737 MAX order

Fri Apr 13, 2018 11:42 am

Planesmart wrote:
If not paying staff, a technical breach of financial covenants on existing loans and leases? Technical, because if they did pay, covenants could be breached.

Debt covenants in India usually don't cover non payment of staff. In fact I haven't come across a single instance of an employee pay related covenant.
17April2019: RIP Jet Airways

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