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ikolkyo
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Air Canada begins MAX 8 service to LHR

Fri Apr 06, 2018 11:33 am

Looks like AC started serving YHZ-LHR with the MAX 8 as of Tuesday 4/4 , replaces the 767-300ER previously operating the route.

https://fr24.com/data/flights/ac860#10efae99
https://fr24.com/data/flights/ac861#10f0597e
 
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ACCS300
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Re: Air Canada begins MAX 8 service to LHR

Fri Apr 06, 2018 12:20 pm

I'll miss the 767-300 on this route, super comfortable ride and one less WB visitor at YHZ. Look forward to perhaps a seasonal up-guage to a 787-8 in the future if there's demand.
 
Eirules
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Re: Air Canada begins MAX 8 service to LHR

Fri Apr 06, 2018 12:21 pm

Significant downgrade for business passengers with no flat bed
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scbriml
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Re: Air Canada begins MAX 8 service to LHR

Fri Apr 06, 2018 12:23 pm

ikolkyo wrote:
Looks like AC started serving YHZ-LHR with the MAX 8 as of Tuesday 4/4


4th April was Wednesday. :wink2:

Yes, I saw that flight on 4th, it flight flew right over my house at 8,000ft on its approach to Heathrow. I was quite surprised when it popped up on my SBS tracker.
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Airontario
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Re: Air Canada begins MAX 8 service to LHR

Fri Apr 06, 2018 12:31 pm

Eirules wrote:
Significant downgrade for business passengers with no flat bed


If AC was consistantly selling out J class on this flight the 767 would continue. If a lie-flat bed is a deal breaker, those passengers can backtrack to YUL/YOW/YYZ. Honestly I doubt many will complain, considering they're pretty lucky to have daily non-stop service to LHR to be honest.
 
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Re: Air Canada begins MAX 8 service to LHR

Fri Apr 06, 2018 12:31 pm

Eirules wrote:
Significant downgrade for business passengers with no flat bed


In fact there's no more business class, the flight is sold as Y and Y+
 
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Re: Air Canada begins MAX 8 service to LHR

Fri Apr 06, 2018 12:38 pm

A second B38M will be scheduled to LHR soon from St Johns
 
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Re: Air Canada begins MAX 8 service to LHR

Fri Apr 06, 2018 12:43 pm

runway23 wrote:
Eirules wrote:
Significant downgrade for business passengers with no flat bed


In fact there's no more business class, the flight is sold as Y and Y+


And no cargo capability. They now have an once daily YUL-YHZ-YUL A333 turn to get the lobster across the pond via YUL. An aircraft that can't take the fish (or in this case shellfish) is a bad choice.
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Re: Air Canada begins MAX 8 service to LHR

Fri Apr 06, 2018 12:48 pm

Glad to see NBs taking over TATL routes. This also debunks the myth only large wide-bodies should serve congested hubs.
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leghorn
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Re: Air Canada begins MAX 8 service to LHR

Fri Apr 06, 2018 12:49 pm

They've got an ETOPS rating for this 737Max8? The replay in flightrader doesn't show me how close they got to Iceland and Greenland.
 
CRJ900
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Re: Air Canada begins MAX 8 service to LHR

Fri Apr 06, 2018 12:50 pm

According to FR24, the aircraft flies YYZ-YHZ-LHR-YHZ-YYZ before starting over again - so far, at least. Does the crew work YYZ-YHZ-LHR, then layover before working LHR-YHZ-YYZ?
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Re: Air Canada begins MAX 8 service to LHR

Fri Apr 06, 2018 12:54 pm

Does anyone have the break down on cabin capacity from the 767?
 
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Re: Air Canada begins MAX 8 service to LHR

Fri Apr 06, 2018 12:57 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Glad to see NBs taking over TATL routes. This also debunks the myth only large wide-bodies should serve congested hubs.


What myth? There's an abundance of NB at LHR.
 
runway23
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Re: Air Canada begins MAX 8 service to LHR

Fri Apr 06, 2018 12:59 pm

727200 wrote:
Does anyone have the break down on cabin capacity from the 767?


763: 24J 187Y
7M8: 16Y+, 153Y

Overall a 20% loss in number of seats.
 
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Re: Air Canada begins MAX 8 service to LHR

Fri Apr 06, 2018 1:09 pm

runway23 wrote:
727200 wrote:
Does anyone have the break down on cabin capacity from the 767?


763: 24J 187Y
7M8: 16Y+, 153Y

Overall a 20% loss in number of seats.


If there is a demand, airlines will put the aircraft on it. The max will definitely open up or maintain low yielding routes like these given the CASM savings.
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voodoo
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Re: Air Canada begins MAX 8 service to LHR

Fri Apr 06, 2018 1:09 pm

CRJ900 wrote:
According to FR24, the aircraft flies YYZ-YHZ-LHR-YHZ-YYZ before starting over again - so far, at least. Does the crew work YYZ-YHZ-LHR, then layover before working LHR-YHZ-YYZ?


That's the way the A319 service YYZ-YYT-LHR used to work so I assume it will be similar with the MAX via YHZ and YYT later on..
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Re: Air Canada begins MAX 8 service to LHR

Fri Apr 06, 2018 1:10 pm

Arion640 wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
Glad to see NBs taking over TATL routes. This also debunks the myth only large wide-bodies should serve congested hubs.


What myth? There's an abundance of NB at LHR.


Yes, but Arion640 was specifically talking about TATL flights with narrowbody planes and there are very few of those. In fact, AC might be the only airline doing it to LHR today.

fcogafa wrote:
A second B38M will be scheduled to LHR soon from St Johns


Is that replacing the A319 service?
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ikolkyo
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Re: Air Canada begins MAX 8 service to LHR

Fri Apr 06, 2018 1:11 pm

scbriml wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
Looks like AC started serving YHZ-LHR with the MAX 8 as of Tuesday 4/4


4th April was Wednesday. :wink2:

Yes, I saw that flight on 4th, it flight flew right over my house at 8,000ft on its approach to Heathrow. I was quite surprised when it popped up on my SBS tracker.


Sheesh, I even edited that part and I still got it wrong haha.
 
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Re: Air Canada begins MAX 8 service to LHR

Fri Apr 06, 2018 1:11 pm

727200 wrote:
Does anyone have the break down on cabin capacity from the 767?


Buisness class (pods): 24 seats Economy: 137 seats

(This is just Air Canada's 767-300ER)

Standard 767-300ER:


181-375 seats on most jets
(over 1100 jets built have an average of 181-375 seats, some have more and some have less)

Please correct me if I am wrong.

Thanks and always happy to help,
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Re: Air Canada begins MAX 8 service to LHR

Fri Apr 06, 2018 1:12 pm

727200 wrote:
Does anyone have the break down on cabin capacity from the 767?

For overseas flying, the MAX8 cabin is configured at 16 Premium Economy, 54 Preferred (Y+) and 99 Economy.

For Air Canada to no longer offer J out of YHZ to LHR is the best indication how well it sold. Anecdotally, as employees when non-reving, YHZ was the only way to be sure you'd get a J seat to Europe. ;) While there was a plan for a while to put Premium Economy in the 767, (there was even a seat chart published) as soon as the A330 was refitted instead, it more or less sealed the fate of the future of the 767 at Air Canada mainline. One could tell which of the two (A330 or 767) was staying.

So the 767 at mainline only offered J (lie flat pods), Preferred and Economy.

Remember, with a fleet as diverse and elastic as Air Canada's, if it shows to be a bad decision then it will be switched very quickly.
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ikolkyo
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Re: Air Canada begins MAX 8 service to LHR

Fri Apr 06, 2018 1:13 pm

scbriml wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
Glad to see NBs taking over TATL routes. This also debunks the myth only large wide-bodies should serve congested hubs.


What myth? There's an abundance of NB at LHR.


Yes, but Arion640 was specifically talking about TATL flights with narrowbody planes and there are very few of those. In fact, AC might be the only airline doing it to LHR today.

fcogafa wrote:
A second B38M will be scheduled to LHR soon from St Johns


Is that replacing the A319 service?


Yes, the MAX is expected to replace the A319 in May.
 
MapleLeaf789
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Re: Air Canada begins MAX 8 service to LHR

Fri Apr 06, 2018 1:15 pm

How long is this flight? Is there a big need for a lie flat seat?

I guess the 767 will be re-deployed to Rouge?
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Newbiepilot
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Re: Air Canada begins MAX 8 service to LHR

Fri Apr 06, 2018 1:15 pm

WildcatYXU wrote:
runway23 wrote:
Eirules wrote:
Significant downgrade for business passengers with no flat bed


In fact there's no more business class, the flight is sold as Y and Y+


And no cargo capability. They now have an once daily YUL-YHZ-YUL A333 turn to get the lobster across the pond via YUL. An aircraft that can't take the fish (or in this case shellfish) is a bad choice.


No cargo capability? The eastbound flight is 5.5 hours, which is well within the range of the 737-8 including allowing for cargo. If the 737 can’t take any cargo like fish, someone better tell Alaska Airlines

https://www.alaskaair.com/content/cargo/ship-seafood
Last edited by Newbiepilot on Fri Apr 06, 2018 1:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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longhauler
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Re: Air Canada begins MAX 8 service to LHR

Fri Apr 06, 2018 1:15 pm

FedEx747 wrote:
[
Buisness class (pods): 24 seats Economy: 137 seats
(This is just Air Canada's 767-300ER)

FedEx747

24J (sometimes 23 on some routes)
187 Y (14 of which are Preferred)
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flipdewaf
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Re: Air Canada begins MAX 8 service to LHR

Fri Apr 06, 2018 1:16 pm

Oh well, I used to fly this route regularly and then drive up through to NB. I'll have a go at it in the max to see what its like and give a good idea of what single vs dual aisle is like on the same trip over the Atlantic, my guess is that if the AVOD is good enough it won't be any worse than the AC787.

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Newbiepilot
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Re: Air Canada begins MAX 8 service to LHR

Fri Apr 06, 2018 1:20 pm

FedEx747 wrote:
Does anyone have a list of all NB jets that can cross the Atlantic? (I have been once told that the 757 was the only one, but evidently, that's wrong)

Thank you


Norwegian has been flying 737MAX Transatlantic since last summer. Their longest route is Stewart New York to Bergen Norway, which is 600 miles longer than Halifax to London.
 
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FedEx747
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Re: Air Canada begins MAX 8 service to LHR

Fri Apr 06, 2018 1:21 pm

Does anyone have a list of all NB jets that can cross the Atlantic? (I have been once told that the 757 was the only one, but evidently, that's wrong)

Thank you
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Re: Air Canada begins MAX 8 service to LHR

Fri Apr 06, 2018 1:23 pm

flipdewaf wrote:
My guess is that if the AVOD is good enough it won't be any worse than the AC787.
Fred

The AVOD on the MAX is identical to the 787/777.

With the swift retirement of the 767 and E190, only the A320 series will have the old Thales system. The A330s are being refitted with the new system as the new J cabin is installed.
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flipdewaf
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Re: Air Canada begins MAX 8 service to LHR

Fri Apr 06, 2018 1:25 pm

longhauler wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
My guess is that if the AVOD is good enough it won't be any worse than the AC787.
Fred

The AVOD on the MAX is identical to the 787/777.

With the swift retirement of the 767 and E190, only the A320 series will have the old Thales system. The A330s are being refitted with the new system as the new J cabin is installed.


Sweet! I will make use of LHR-YUL-YFC for my trips. x8 in the A330 beats all the others!

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Dominion301
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Re: Air Canada begins MAX 8 service to LHR

Fri Apr 06, 2018 1:26 pm

Eirules wrote:
Significant downgrade for business passengers with no flat bed


True, but YHZ-LHR is shorter than many transcons that are in the same boat.

runway23 wrote:
727200 wrote:
Does anyone have the break down on cabin capacity from the 767?


763: 24J 187Y
7M8: 16Y+, 153Y

Overall a 20% loss in number of seats.


That may be true, but keep in mind WS are starting a daily YHZ-LGW on the 7M8 too. This means overall Halifax-London capacity will be flat at worst over the course of a year, but it's probably more like up 20% on a combined basis.

ikolkyo wrote:
scbriml wrote:
Arion640 wrote:

What myth? There's an abundance of NB at LHR.


Yes, but Arion640 was specifically talking about TATL flights with narrowbody planes and there are very few of those. In fact, AC might be the only airline doing it to LHR today.

fcogafa wrote:
A second B38M will be scheduled to LHR soon from St Johns


Is that replacing the A319 service?


Yes, the MAX is expected to replace the A319 in May.


The 319s on YYT-LHR ended last October. AC over the winter was pit stopping AC860/861 on the 763 2x week at YYT.

Newbiepilot wrote:
WildcatYXU wrote:
runway23 wrote:

In fact there's no more business class, the flight is sold as Y and Y+


And no cargo capability. They now have an once daily YUL-YHZ-YUL A333 turn to get the lobster across the pond via YUL. An aircraft that can't take the fish (or in this case shellfish) is a bad choice.


No cargo capability? The eastbound flight is 5.5 hours, which is well within the range of the 737-8 including allowing for cargo. If the 737 can’t take any cargo like fish, someone better tell Alaska Airlines

https://www.alaskaair.com/content/cargo/ship-seafood


Sure it can take some cargo, but nowhere near the volumes that the 763 could haul.
 
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CarbonFibre
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Re: Air Canada begins MAX 8 service to LHR

Fri Apr 06, 2018 1:38 pm

LHR saw both the AC A319 & 7M8 yesterday.
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: Air Canada begins MAX 8 service to LHR

Fri Apr 06, 2018 1:38 pm

Dominion301 wrote:

ikolkyo wrote:

Yes, the MAX is expected to replace the A319 in May.


The 319s on YYT-LHR ended last October. AC over the winter was pit stopping AC860/861 on the 763 2x week at YYT.



A319 is most definitely still operating YYT-LHR as AC822.
 
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Re: Air Canada begins MAX 8 service to LHR

Fri Apr 06, 2018 1:40 pm

I am booked on this route in June flying ARN-LHR-YHZ-YYZ-LAX (fun routing!). When I booked the ticket it was scheduled as a 767, so a bit disappointed to see it downgraded to a 737. While I have flown TATL on NBs before (EWR-ARN/757 and CPH-BOS/737), I still prefer WBs as you have more room to move around. Oh well, I will at least get a 787 on the last segment of my trip.
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Re: Air Canada begins MAX 8 service to LHR

Fri Apr 06, 2018 1:44 pm

[/quote]The 319s on YYT-LHR ended last October. AC over the winter was pit stopping AC860/861 on the 763 2x week at YYT.[/quote]

The A319's are back on this route as of last week. The MAX is slated to start the end of April, however, talking to some pilots, they have stated that the YYT-LHR MAX start might be delayed as there aren't enough crews trained on the MAX for TATL ops. Guess we'll wait and see.
Last edited by AC_B777 on Fri Apr 06, 2018 1:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Dominion301
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Re: Air Canada begins MAX 8 service to LHR

Fri Apr 06, 2018 1:45 pm

ikolkyo wrote:
Dominion301 wrote:

ikolkyo wrote:

Yes, the MAX is expected to replace the A319 in May.


The 319s on YYT-LHR ended last October. AC over the winter was pit stopping AC860/861 on the 763 2x week at YYT.



A319 is most definitely still operating YYT-LHR as AC822.


Ah yes AC822 would have just resumed on the 319 temporarily with YHZ switching over to the MAX. YYT-LHR though was definitely a 763 over the winter schedule.
 
bmacleod
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Re: Air Canada begins MAX 8 service to LHR

Fri Apr 06, 2018 1:45 pm

runway23 wrote:
727200 wrote:
Does anyone have the break down on cabin capacity from the 767?


763: 24J 187Y
7M8: 16Y+, 153Y

Overall a 20% loss in number of seats.


Another discussion pointed to WS starting MAX-8 summer service YHZ-LGW as prime reason for AC replacing the 763 on AC860/861 with MAX8. But www.routesonline.com just announced AC intention to keep the MAX-8 on AC860/861 year round - so maybe J seats on YHZ-LHR weren't selling enough.

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/airlineroute/277835/air-canada-w18-atlantic-canada-london-service-changes-as-of-26mar18/?highlight=air%20canada
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leghorn
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Re: Air Canada begins MAX 8 service to LHR

Fri Apr 06, 2018 1:52 pm

ETOPS rating? A better rating would cut 20 to 30 minutes from flight time. Norwegian were flying near Greenland with Max8 because they hadn't got the bigger ETOPS rating at the time.
 
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Re: Air Canada begins MAX 8 service to LHR

Fri Apr 06, 2018 2:08 pm

runway23 wrote:
In fact there's no more business class, the flight is sold as Y and Y+

That shows the demand. If the front cabin wasn't paying, then give them what they will pay for.

fcogafa wrote:
A second B38M will be scheduled to LHR soon from St Johns

We'll see many more narrowbodies TATL over the next decade. :hyper:

WildcatYXU wrote:
And no cargo capability. They now have an once daily YUL-YHZ-YUL A333 turn to get the lobster across the pond via YUL. An aircraft that can't take the fish (or in this case shellfish) is a bad choice.

It is all about the fish. ;)

Seriously, they'll have some room. If the 767 could earn that much additional revenue, they would still be flying it or replace it with another widebody. This looks like a wise downgauge.


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bmacleod
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Re: Air Canada begins MAX 8 service to LHR

Fri Apr 06, 2018 2:13 pm

Eirules wrote:
Significant downgrade for business passengers with no flat bed


If YHZ passengers are willing to pay extra and connect to YUL to try to get a J seat on a 787 YUL-LHR they're certainly welcome.

Or connect to YOW for J seats one of the remaining 763s on YOW-LHR.

Wonder if YOW-LHR will get a 787 when the 763s are scrapped?
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Re: Air Canada begins MAX 8 service to LHR

Fri Apr 06, 2018 2:30 pm

ikolkyo wrote:
Dominion301 wrote:

ikolkyo wrote:

Yes, the MAX is expected to replace the A319 in May.


The 319s on YYT-LHR ended last October. AC over the winter was pit stopping AC860/861 on the 763 2x week at YYT.



A319 is most definitely still operating YYT-LHR as AC822.


IIRC, wasn't YYT-LHR seasonal anyway? I don't ever recall seeing AC A319s at LHR during the winter.
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loonytoon44
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Re: Air Canada begins MAX 8 service to LHR

Fri Apr 06, 2018 2:33 pm

I thought they had cancelled the St. Johns flight to LHR but it appears that Air Canada will be using the Max on both the St. Johns (3 Weekly) and Halifax (4 weekly) route in the winter.
 
jimbo737
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Re: Air Canada begins MAX 8 service to LHR

Fri Apr 06, 2018 2:41 pm

For years It was suggested that the YHZ - LHR 767 service was highly profitable because it was underwritten by endless pallets of lobster being flown to Europe daily and premium maritime traffic paying big $ to have a lie flat seat over the Atlantic.

Lo and behold, the service is changed to the Max8 and there is no longer cargo capability of any consequence and no lie flat seats for those high yielding J passengers that filled the 767 and made it so “profitable”.

:lol:
 
skipness1E
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Re: Air Canada begins MAX 8 service to LHR

Fri Apr 06, 2018 2:52 pm

The prices charged on YHZ-LHR are astronomical for a transatlantic flight of that length!
We only ever saw two A319s, C-GITP/R at LHR, as I believe they are fitted with the necessary rafts for long overwater flying, will the whole MAX fleet be so equipped or it will be a subfleet?

As to narrow body North America flying out of LHR, well United (and until this month Delta) are till flying the B757.
 
BAINY3
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Re: Air Canada begins MAX 8 service to LHR

Fri Apr 06, 2018 2:54 pm

longhauler wrote:
With the swift retirement of the 767 and E190, only the A320 series will have the old Thales system. The A330s are being refitted with the new system as the new J cabin is installed.

What about the E175s? I know they aren't mainline, but they used to be and still have Thales. Are these getting upgraded at some point?
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: Air Canada begins MAX 8 service to LHR

Fri Apr 06, 2018 3:02 pm

scbriml wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
Dominion301 wrote:



The 319s on YYT-LHR ended last October. AC over the winter was pit stopping AC860/861 on the 763 2x week at YYT.



A319 is most definitely still operating YYT-LHR as AC822.


IIRC, wasn't YYT-LHR seasonal anyway? I don't ever recall seeing AC A319s at LHR during the winter.


As Dominion pointed out the A319 doesn't operate during the winter, the 763 that operates YHZ-LHR stops in YYT 2x week then continues on to LHR in the winter.
 
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Re: Air Canada begins MAX 8 service to LHR

Fri Apr 06, 2018 3:36 pm

BAINY3 wrote:
longhauler wrote:
With the swift retirement of the 767 and E190, only the A320 series will have the old Thales system. The A330s are being refitted with the new system as the new J cabin is installed.

What about the E175s? I know they aren't mainline, but they used to be and still have Thales. Are these getting upgraded at some point?


Ditto the CRAs (or I guess they're called CR9s now - or as AC refers to them now on their website as 'undefined' :P).
 
Arion640
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Re: Air Canada begins MAX 8 service to LHR

Fri Apr 06, 2018 4:26 pm

scbriml wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
Glad to see NBs taking over TATL routes. This also debunks the myth only large wide-bodies should serve congested hubs.


What myth? There's an abundance of NB at LHR.


Yes, but Arion640 was specifically talking about TATL flights with narrowbody planes and there are very few of those. In fact, AC might be the only airline doing it to LHR today.



The daytime United IAD-LHR flight is 757 operated.
 
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Re: Air Canada begins MAX 8 service to LHR

Fri Apr 06, 2018 4:32 pm

loonytoon44 wrote:
I thought they had cancelled the St. Johns flight to LHR but it appears that Air Canada will be using the Max on both the St. Johns (3 Weekly) and Halifax (4 weekly) route in the winter.


That's the improvement, frankly. YYT-LHR is scheduled 3x thru the winter instead of being dropped entirely.
 
Thenoflyzone
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Re: Air Canada begins MAX 8 service to LHR

Fri Apr 06, 2018 4:37 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
WildcatYXU wrote:
runway23 wrote:

In fact there's no more business class, the flight is sold as Y and Y+


And no cargo capability. They now have an once daily YUL-YHZ-YUL A333 turn to get the lobster across the pond via YUL. An aircraft that can't take the fish (or in this case shellfish) is a bad choice.


No cargo capability? The eastbound flight is 5.5 hours, which is well within the range of the 737-8 including allowing for cargo. If the 737 can’t take any cargo like fish, someone better tell Alaska Airlines

https://www.alaskaair.com/content/cargo/ship-seafood


Alaska has a section about shipping seafood because it's so complicated to do it in a B737. Look at all those weight and size limitations. Palletised A330s eliminate this problem.
Last edited by Thenoflyzone on Fri Apr 06, 2018 4:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
Thenoflyzone
Posts: 3092
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2001 4:42 am

Re: Air Canada begins MAX 8 service to LHR

Fri Apr 06, 2018 4:41 pm

skipness1E wrote:
The prices charged on YHZ-LHR are astronomical for a transatlantic flight of that length!
We only ever saw two A319s, C-GITP/R at LHR, as I believe they are fitted with the necessary rafts for long overwater flying, will the whole MAX fleet be so equipped or it will be a subfleet?

As to narrow body North America flying out of LHR, well United (and until this month Delta) are till flying the B757.


Most likely a decent subfleet (if not all) will be ETOPS 180 certified. They will deploy them to Hawaii as well, as most of the west coast-Hawaii flights will be on the MAX 8 as of this winter. Not to mention some YUL/YYZ- Ireland flights as well. They will definately need more than just a few frames with ETOPS certification.
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!

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