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sixtyseven
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What about a reengined Caravelle

Sat Apr 07, 2018 6:35 am

In the spirit of similar threads waxing on about the possibility of re-engined DC-10s, and 1011s. I have been wondering about the chances of the caravelle getting a new life??

Maybe the BAC-111?? You put a couple of GTFs on that thing maybe DL can start up a super hub out of MIA and really penetrate LatAm. Sky’s the limit.

Maybe call the new venture PanAm.
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scbriml
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Re: What about a reengined Caravelle

Sat Apr 07, 2018 6:50 am

Good idea.

There are lots of them just laying around waiting desperately for a new lease of life. Oh wait...

Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
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cougar15
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Re: What about a reengined Caravelle

Sat Apr 07, 2018 6:58 am

scbriml wrote:
Good idea.

There are lots of them just laying around waiting desperately for a new lease of life. Oh wait...



now that would look good with a couple of V2500s on it´s rear, I would jump strait on the maiden flight..... :banghead:
some you lose, others you can´t win!
 
2Holer4Longhaul
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Re: What about a reengined Caravelle

Sat Apr 07, 2018 8:22 am

There's a reason people complain about these threads: the answer has always been a resounding no. Reviving production of a frame that has fallen such a way behind modern developments is not, and shall never be, an efficient idea.
Furthermore, re-engining is super expensive and complex, which is why it hasn't been done since the DC-8.
"You know, if you just set out to be liked, you would be prepared to compromise on anything, wouldn't you, at any time? And you would achieve nothing!" - Margaret Thatcher
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: What about a reengined Caravelle

Sat Apr 07, 2018 9:23 am

The aerodynamics of a new design will always be better than that of a design that's decades old, let alone the systems. I've seen the cockpit of a Caravelle once, nothing can be more outdated than that. It's all analogue steam-powered instruments and navigation on the needles. Whilst that may sound appealing to the retro freaks out there, it doesn't sound any good to professional airlines. They just want up-to-date digital navigation and that's what new aircraft offer. Updating the Caravelle would cost more than buying a new aircraft.
 
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ClassicLover
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Re: What about a reengined Caravelle

Sat Apr 07, 2018 11:21 am

sixtyseven wrote:
In the spirit of similar threads waxing on about the possibility of re-engined DC-10s, and 1011s. I have been wondering about the chances of the caravelle getting a new life??

Maybe the BAC-111?? You put a couple of GTFs on that thing maybe DL can start up a super hub out of MIA and really penetrate LatAm. Sky’s the limit.

Maybe call the new venture PanAm.


Well, I'm crying with laughter - pretty funny post :) Well done :)

It's good to see some humour poked at those other threads.
I do enjoy a spot of flying, especially when it's not in economy!
 
Philippine747
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Re: What about a reengined Caravelle

Sat Apr 07, 2018 11:50 am

I definitely don't see this as a possibility. The tooling to create this type is long destroyed, and as said here the aerodynamics would be out of whack. Also, the chances of finding an airframe in relatively good condition would be rare...
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RalXWB
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Re: What about a reengined Caravelle

Sat Apr 07, 2018 11:54 am

Airbus has withdrawn the airworthiness certificate for the Caravelle. IF there would be a good example left (I think there is none) it could be operated with a permit to fly but that is very unlikely.
 
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hOMSaR
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Re: What about a reengined Caravelle

Sat Apr 07, 2018 12:39 pm

scbriml wrote:
Good idea.

There are lots of them just laying around waiting desperately for a new lease of life. Oh wait...



What’s that thing hanging underneath the front of the plane?
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Channex757
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Re: What about a reengined Caravelle

Sat Apr 07, 2018 12:58 pm

hOMSaR wrote:
scbriml wrote:
Good idea.

There are lots of them just laying around waiting desperately for a new lease of life. Oh wait...



What’s that thing hanging underneath the front of the plane?

It was some kind of testing pod, atmospheric research if memory serves. Measuring pollution which is ironic considering it was strapped to a Caravelle!
 
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Spacepope
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Re: What about a reengined Caravelle

Sat Apr 07, 2018 1:04 pm

Channex757 wrote:
hOMSaR wrote:
scbriml wrote:
Good idea.

There are lots of them just laying around waiting desperately for a new lease of life. Oh wait...



What’s that thing hanging underneath the front of the plane?

It was some kind of testing pod, atmospheric research if memory serves. Measuring pollution which is ironic considering it was strapped to a Caravelle!

Hey now this one has efficient JT-8Ds, it IS the re-engined one!
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Channex757
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Re: What about a reengined Caravelle

Sat Apr 07, 2018 1:14 pm

Spacepope wrote:
Channex757 wrote:
hOMSaR wrote:

What’s that thing hanging underneath the front of the plane?

It was some kind of testing pod, atmospheric research if memory serves. Measuring pollution which is ironic considering it was strapped to a Caravelle!

Hey now this one has efficient JT-8Ds, it IS the re-engined one!

Look closer. Avon silencers. Which is odd as it's got the revised cockpit layout.
 
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longhauler
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Re: What about a reengined Caravelle

Sat Apr 07, 2018 1:20 pm

Channex757 wrote:
Spacepope wrote:
Channex757 wrote:
It was some kind of testing pod, atmospheric research if memory serves. Measuring pollution which is ironic considering it was strapped to a Caravelle!

Hey now this one has efficient JT-8Ds, it IS the re-engined one!

Look closer. Avon silencers. Which is odd as it's got the revised cockpit layout.

That's a VI-R which has the old engines, RR Avon 532Rs but the new cockpit. Looking at the lack of HF antenna, I'd guess it started life with United.

The VI-N, same vintage, but without reverse, (Avon 531s), had the old cockpit windows.

Caravelle 10s and later had the JT-8Ds.
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sixtyseven
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Re: What about a reengined Caravelle

Sat Apr 07, 2018 2:09 pm

ClassicLover wrote:
sixtyseven wrote:
In the spirit of similar threads waxing on about the possibility of re-engined DC-10s, and 1011s. I have been wondering about the chances of the caravelle getting a new life??

Maybe the BAC-111?? You put a couple of GTFs on that thing maybe DL can start up a super hub out of MIA and really penetrate LatAm. Sky’s the limit.

Maybe call the new venture PanAm.


Well, I'm crying with laughter - pretty funny post :) Well done :)

It's good to see some humour poked at those other threads.


Thank you and that was the intent. I’m getting more of a chuckle at the serious replies to this.
Stand-by for new ATIS message......
 
Jetsouth
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Re: What about a reengined Caravelle

Sat Apr 07, 2018 2:20 pm

While we are at it, might as well put GTF's on DC-3's. At least there are still plenty of them still out there...and many posters are looking for another jet under 50 seats to replace the retiring CRJ200's....
 
georgiabill
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Re: What about a reengined Caravelle

Sat Apr 07, 2018 2:57 pm

Why did the Caravelle not sell better? Was it lack of range, capacity or the competition built better aircraft faster and less expensive? Apparently all series of Caravelle had 280 produced and ordered or operated by 46 airlines In comparison the BAC-111 had nearly 400 produced, Douglas delivered 976 DC-9'S.
 
skipness1E
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Re: What about a reengined Caravelle

Sat Apr 07, 2018 3:12 pm

GTF means something very different on social media, really surprised they are still calling it that.
 
kalvado
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Re: What about a reengined Caravelle

Sat Apr 07, 2018 3:25 pm

Jetsouth wrote:
While we are at it, might as well put GTF's on DC-3's. At least there are still plenty of them still out there...and many posters are looking for another jet under 50 seats to replace the retiring CRJ200's....

There are several DC-3 turbine re-engine programs. And, of course, there should be a gearbox on those,,,
 
N626AA
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Re: What about a reengined Caravelle

Sat Apr 07, 2018 3:26 pm

I personally often ponder things like this too, whether it be viable in reality or not. If restoring classic planes cost as much as restoring classic cars, I'm sure many more people would do it. Unfortunately re-engining a caravelle costs exponentially more than dropping a new motor a '58 El Dorado, let alone other costs.
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Antarius
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Re: What about a reengined Caravelle

Sat Apr 07, 2018 3:48 pm

sixtyseven wrote:
ClassicLover wrote:
sixtyseven wrote:
In the spirit of similar threads waxing on about the possibility of re-engined DC-10s, and 1011s. I have been wondering about the chances of the caravelle getting a new life??

Maybe the BAC-111?? You put a couple of GTFs on that thing maybe DL can start up a super hub out of MIA and really penetrate LatAm. Sky’s the limit.

Maybe call the new venture PanAm.


Well, I'm crying with laughter - pretty funny post :) Well done :)

It's good to see some humour poked at those other threads.


Thank you and that was the intent. I’m getting more of a chuckle at the serious replies to this.


I was like wtf-really on the first post till I read the last line about calling the new venture PanAm... then I saw what you did there.

Well played
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2Holer4Longhaul
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Re: What about a reengined Caravelle

Sat Apr 07, 2018 4:16 pm

sixtyseven wrote:
ClassicLover wrote:
sixtyseven wrote:
In the spirit of similar threads waxing on about the possibility of re-engined DC-10s, and 1011s. I have been wondering about the chances of the caravelle getting a new life??

Maybe the BAC-111?? You put a couple of GTFs on that thing maybe DL can start up a super hub out of MIA and really penetrate LatAm. Sky’s the limit.

Maybe call the new venture PanAm.


Well, I'm crying with laughter - pretty funny post :) Well done :)

It's good to see some humour poked at those other threads.


Thank you and that was the intent. I’m getting more of a chuckle at the serious replies to this.

I gotta admit, you had me hook, line, and sinker, mostly because there are a.nutters who have suggested all these things.
"You know, if you just set out to be liked, you would be prepared to compromise on anything, wouldn't you, at any time? And you would achieve nothing!" - Margaret Thatcher
 
beeweel15
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Re: What about a reengined Caravelle

Sat Apr 07, 2018 4:42 pm

Well a great idea would be to try and keep a couple flight worthy like they do with world war 2 bombers and fighter planes.
 
lat41
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Re: What about a reengined Caravelle

Sat Apr 07, 2018 5:06 pm

I always wondered about 4 BR710s like what is on the 717 to be fitted onto a Vikers VC-10 like the RAF and BA had replacing the RE Conways. Fan diameter not too far off!
 
jimatkins
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Re: What about a reengined Caravelle

Sat Apr 07, 2018 5:54 pm

Turboprop Ford Trimotor? Do you think we could shoehorn one of those Williams cruise missile engines into a Fokker Eindecker?
 
Mortyman
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Re: What about a reengined Caravelle

Sat Apr 07, 2018 6:29 pm

and I got flamed for proposing a continuation of the Airbus 340 program with new and more efficient engines ...
 
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GE90man
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Re: What about a reengined Caravelle

Sat Apr 07, 2018 7:02 pm

Mortyman wrote:
and I got flamed for proposing a continuation of the Airbus 340 program with new and more efficient engines ...

Feels bad man. *pats shoulder*
 
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keesje
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Re: What about a reengined Caravelle

Sat Apr 07, 2018 7:12 pm

Image
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
aviatorcraig
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Re: What about a reengined Caravelle

Sat Apr 07, 2018 7:17 pm

Jetsouth wrote:
While we are at it, might as well put GTF's on DC-3's. At least there are still plenty of them still out there....

I have this image in my head of lots of enginless DC-3s parked on an airfield awaiting delivery their GTFs


lat41 wrote:
I always wondered about 4 BR710s like what is on the 717 to be fitted onto a Vikers VC-10 like the RAF and BA had replacing the RE Conways. Fan diameter not too far off!

Nah, bad idea! It would never SOUND like a VC-10 :lol:
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VSMUT
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Re: What about a reengined Caravelle

Sat Apr 07, 2018 7:18 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
The aerodynamics of a new design will always be better than that of a design that's decades old...


Ironically, the nose shape of the Caravelle (Comet) is now being emulated by almost everyone else, with the 787 and C-series being the most notable ones! :D

The fuselage itself would probably have been pretty well suited for a 100-150 seater to compete with the E-195, Fokker-100, ARJ-21 and C-series. The rest, including interior, cockpit, engine, wing, empennage and at the very least the main landing gear would have to be completely new though, at which point you might as well do a completely new fuselage anyway.
 
N626AA
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Re: What about a reengined Caravelle

Sat Apr 07, 2018 7:19 pm

Mortyman wrote:
and I got flamed for proposing a continuation of the Airbus 340 program with new and more efficient engines ...


I hate to see people get shark attacked on here for topics a little off from the ordinary thread discussions. Herd mentality.
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irishaviation
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Re: What about a reengined Caravelle

Sat Apr 07, 2018 7:41 pm

maybe ,yes for an aviation enthusiasts but for airlines ,a reengined with a modern glass cockpit with winglits and other mdification could get used maybe with a new airframe ,is it practical ,not really ,should we do it ,yes
 
hotelima
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Re: What about a reengined Caravelle

Sat Apr 07, 2018 7:42 pm

It may be interesting to know that in Sweden does exist at ARN one ex-SAS Caravelle (registered SE-DAI, c/n 210) with engines (RR Avon Mk 527) the fanatics of the swedish "Le Caravelle Club" get starting regularly, however without rolling up the aircraft..There are also some Caravelle displayed here and there.The best example is the SE-210 Caravelle reg F-BOHA c/n 242 displayed in Air France perfect condition at Avignon airport (AVN) France. Somebody very interested in the Caravelle topic ? As I made a complete Caravelle study, I can give you free all détails about every Caravelle built, from c/n 001 to c/n 280. Please, contact me, your pleasure will be mine ! !
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: What about a reengined Caravelle

Sat Apr 07, 2018 7:49 pm

While we’re at it, a Viscount with four P&W 123s for power. Props, four of them no less; the windows were used on Gulfstream for decades and classic look.

GF
 
Samrnpage
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Re: What about a reengined Caravelle

Sat Apr 07, 2018 7:55 pm

This thread though hahaha. I do hate the "what if ***insert random thing*** happened would delta have changed its name to Beta?" Threads. People if the answer is "we can never know" then dont post it.
 
gzm
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Re: What about a reengined Caravelle

Sat Apr 07, 2018 8:36 pm

scbriml wrote:
Good idea.

There are lots of them just laying around waiting desperately for a new lease of life. Oh wait...


I remember seeing this one or a similar one at Pima Air Museum. Were you there by any chance in December 2005?
 
DDR
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Re: What about a reengined Caravelle

Sat Apr 07, 2018 8:38 pm

Mortyman wrote:
and I got flamed for proposing a continuation of the Airbus 340 program with new and more efficient engines ...


Mortyman, I would love to see an A340 in service with new and more efficient engines. All these twin engine planes are starting to look the same. Boring.
 
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kjeld0d
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Re: What about a reengined Caravelle

Sat Apr 07, 2018 8:41 pm

Had to check the date...you're 6 days late!
 
deltadudejg
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Re: What about a reengined Caravelle

Sat Apr 07, 2018 9:04 pm

Ready for the Airliners Forum pot stirring statement:

:stirthepot: :stirthepot: :stirthepot:

Don't waste your time of on the Caravelle, we should re-engine the Boeing 757 and Boeing should remake the production line.

(I know the answer to the age old question on the 757.)
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Mortyman
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Re: What about a reengined Caravelle

Sat Apr 07, 2018 9:36 pm

Looking good

LN-KLH Ulf Viking Sud 210 Caravelle at the Norwegian Museum of Technology in Oslo, Norway. This was the first one delivered.

SAS was the launch customer of the Caravelle and became the model's second-largest operator. They were at first used on European routes, but were gradually transferred to domestic services, especially in Sweden. SAS also bought four Caravelles that it leased to Swissair and from the mid-1960s, eight were leased to Thai Airways. One aircraft had a fatal crash at Ankara in 1960.

Image

Image
 
ImperialEagle
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Re: What about a reengined Caravelle

Sat Apr 07, 2018 9:47 pm

Too little under-floor capacity! Forget cargo, you would be lucky to get all the luggage in there
"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
 
Cunard
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Re: What about a reengined Caravelle

Sun Apr 08, 2018 12:13 am

Joking or not but seriously why are these sort of threads even being allowed on A.net, they are getting to much and to many are appearing of late, the Mods should instantly lock them in my opinion.
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OzarkD9S
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Re: What about a reengined Caravelle

Sun Apr 08, 2018 12:48 am

Cunard wrote:

Joking or not but seriously why are these sort of threads even being allowed on A.net, they are getting to much and to many are appearing of late, the Mods should instantly lock them in my opinion.


Or maybe just make a Nostalgia forum...with all the "what ifs" relegated to that one. I would browse it for sure! :old:
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Cunard
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Re: What about a reengined Caravelle

Sun Apr 08, 2018 1:14 am

I one hundred percent agree with you that there should be a Nostalgia forum for topics such as this so that the Civil Aviation forum doesn't get clogged up with pointless topics such as this one :-)

I think that it would make a very good forum to discuss anything nostalgic.
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JAAlbert
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Re: What about a reengined Caravelle

Sun Apr 08, 2018 2:02 am

VSMUT wrote:

Ironically, the nose shape of the Caravelle (Comet) is now being emulated by almost everyone else, with the 787 and C-series being the most notable ones! :D


My thought exactly! I've always thought the Caravelle an "almost" beautiful plane. The nose and cockpit windows are so sleek, the lozenge shaped cabin windows are fun (and big!) and the wings are swept back nicely. Then we come to that tail -- what happened? It looks like they ran out of design funds so they pulled a tail fin from some old DC-3, then stuck some horizontal stabilizers onto it. Had the fin been more shark-shaped and swept back, the plane would have been smokin' hot - especially with the horizontal stabilizers mounted half way up the tail.

The Comet's design also suffered due to its wonky tail. I wonder who hit upon the swept back tails that are standard on airliners today and when? I also wonder whether the old Comet and Caravelle tails were less efficient than those used commonly today.

Questions aside, the Caravelle is still a great looking aircraft!
 
bohica
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Re: What about a reengined Caravelle

Sun Apr 08, 2018 3:28 pm

Instead of the Caravelle, they should bring back the Trident. It will be stretched, have a modern cockpit, and carry three CFM LEAP engines in the back. It will have enough range to do TPAC and no worries about ETOPS. It will be called the "Trident-8" because the aviation community seems to have a love affair with the number 8.

(sarcasm now turned off) :biggrin:
 
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TedToToe
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Re: What about a reengined Caravelle

Sun Apr 08, 2018 4:40 pm

Mortyman wrote:
Looking good

LN-KLH Ulf Viking Sud 210 Caravelle at the Norwegian Museum of Technology in Oslo, Norway. This was the first one delivered.

Image

Now, that is well preserved. It is such a shame that airliners don't seem to carry the same level of importance when it comes to preservation. Duxford is a good case in point, where some classic airliners have to languish outside in all weathers!
 
gzm
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Re: What about a reengined Caravelle

Sun Apr 08, 2018 6:47 pm

This plane looks like a hybrid in my opinion. Nose like a comet, tail like an Electra, rear-mounted engines like a DC-9. triangular windows and last but not least, four-wheel bogies. It should be worthy to have a re-engined one to do some flights...it is in the spirit of aviation.
 
jubguy3
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Re: What about a reengined Caravelle

Sun Apr 08, 2018 6:47 pm

How about a... please stop making these posts.
 
kelval
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Re: What about a reengined Caravelle

Sun Apr 08, 2018 7:11 pm

ImperialEagle wrote:
Too little under-floor capacity! Forget cargo, you would be lucky to get all the luggage in there


Oh you are right! No fish, no flight!
 
Conniston
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Re: What about a reengined Caravelle

Sun Apr 08, 2018 7:16 pm

sixtyseven wrote:
In the spirit of similar threads waxing on about the possibility of re-engined DC-10s, and 1011s. I have been wondering about the chances of the caravelle getting a new life??

Maybe the BAC-111?? You put a couple of GTFs on that thing maybe DL can start up a super hub out of MIA and really penetrate LatAm. Sky’s the limit.

Maybe call the new venture PanAm.


Although your thread was meant in jest, many of these actually happened. The BAC One Eleven was re-engined with the RR Tay by Dee Howard:


https://www.deehoward.org/the-dee-howard-legacy/innovations/dee-howard-company-innovations/item/dhc-bac-1-11-rolls-royce-tay-re-engine
https://www.deehoward.org/videos/category/dhc-bac-1-11-rolls-royce-tay-re-engine


The DC-3 somebody brought up, it also received multiple re-engined variants. The Conroy Turbo Three with RR Darts, and later the Basler TC-67 with the PT-6s.




jimatkins wrote:
Turboprop Ford Trimotor? Do you think we could shoehorn one of those Williams cruise missile engines into a Fokker Eindecker?


A little more modern than the Ford Tri-Motor, the DC-3 also received 3 engines (PT-6s) with the Conroy Tri Turbo Three conversion.




PatrickZ80 wrote:
I've seen the cockpit of a Caravelle once, nothing can be more outdated than that. It's all analogue steam-powered instruments and navigation on the needles.

Never heard of an aircraft with steam-powered gauges. What instruments used steam, where was the steam sourced from and how was it used? :) The only fellow in aviation I'm aware ever tried using steam was Clément Ader, although in his case it was for propulsion. That said, there are plenty more "outdated" cockpits than a Caravelle's to be found.

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