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Zoedyn
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China-Latin America Air Links Thread

Sat Apr 07, 2018 11:26 am

If there are any so called "final frontiers" of intercontinental long-haul flights around the world yet to be vigorously explored, links btwn China and Latin America surely count among such ranks.

Currently, there are just six scheduled services available between China and Latin America, as shown on the map (plz correct me if there's any omission)
PEK-MAD-GRU (started by Air China from late 2006)
PEK-YUL-HAV (started by Air China from late 2015)
CAN-YVR-MEX (started by China Southern from last July)
PEK-TIJ-MEX (started by Hainan Airlines just weeks ago)
PEK-IAH-PTY (launched by Air China just days ago, colored in blue)
PVG-MEX (the only nonstop service available now, colored in orange, operated by Aeroméxico for almost a decade, initially with a stop in TIJ)

It is easy to note Mexico City is currently the best connected city in Latin America in terms of air links with China, and with all three top-tier cities in mainland China.
Also Chengdu-based Sichuan Airlines is reported to be considering opening a Panama route

Any next city pairs btwn China & Latin America you see most likely or highly desirable for direct/ indirect service in the near future?

Image
 
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Zoedyn
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Re: China-Latin America Air Links Thread

Sat Apr 07, 2018 11:31 am

CA's inaugural China-Panama flight was welcomed with a water arch solute when arriving at Panama City's Tocumen International Airport days ago
Image

Image
 
xiaotung
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Re: China-Latin America Air Links Thread

Sat Apr 07, 2018 11:41 am

CZ have been rumoured to be looking at AKL as a transit point for their flights from CAN to continue to South America. NZ have the potential to connect the 2 continents from their Asian flights to their EZE route but unfortunately current Asian slots do not allow for a convenient connection. Last time I checked, EK and ET carry a lot of traffic between China and Brazil/Argentina via their DXB and ADD hub respectively.
 
factsonly
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Re: China-Latin America Air Links Thread

Sat Apr 07, 2018 12:45 pm

There are also numerous Chinese codeshare services to Latin America via Europe, building on Chinese Alliance partner hub networks:

China Southern offers:
- PEK-AMS on CZ metal
- PEK-AMS on KL metal
- CAN-AMS on CZ metal
- PVG-AMS on KL metal
- XMN-AMS on KL metal
- CTU-AMS on KL metal
- HGH-AMS on KL metal

to feed one Latin American service:

- AMS-LIM CZ7617 on KL metal

Xiamen Airlines offers more Latin Amerian services (and JNB via AMS):
- XMN-AMS on MF metal
- XMN-AMS on KL metal
- PEK-AMS on CZ metal
- PEK-AMS on KL metal
- PVG-AMS on KL metal
- CAN-AMS on CZ metal
- CTU-AMS on KL metal
- HGH-AMS on KL metal

to feed Xiamen's Latin American codeshare services:

- AMS-LIM MF9605 on KL metal
- AMS-PBM MF9603 on KL metal
- AMS-GRU MF9925 on KL metal
- AMS-GIG MF9923 on KL metal

http://www.gcmap.com/map?P=ams-pek,+ams ... 0x360&PM=*
 
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Zoedyn
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Re: China-Latin America Air Links Thread

Sun Apr 08, 2018 3:49 am

xiaotung wrote:
CZ have been rumoured to be looking at AKL as a transit point for their flights from CAN to continue to South America. NZ have the potential to connect the 2 continents from their Asian flights to their EZE route but unfortunately current Asian slots do not allow for a convenient connection. Last time I checked, EK and ET carry a lot of traffic between China and Brazil/Argentina via their DXB and ADD hub respectively.


It would definitely be a masterful stroke for CZ to launch services btwn China and South America via AKL or any other Oceanic airport like PER as a transit point! Almost too good to be true :D
 
Tailwinds13
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Re: China-Latin America Air Links Thread

Mon Apr 09, 2018 2:39 am

I think MEX makes a great Latin American gateway to Asia. Pending the opening of the new airport, I'm excited to see how service to Asia changes.
 
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KrustyTheKlown
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Re: China-Latin America Air Links Thread

Mon Apr 09, 2018 5:37 am

Zoedyn wrote:
PVG-MEX (the only nonstop service available now, colored in orange, operated by Aeroméxico for almost a decade, initially with a stop in TIJ)


AM99 from PVG to MEX is a nonstop flight, but the MEX to PVG leg (AM98) still operates with a stop in TIJ.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: China-Latin America Air Links Thread

Mon Apr 09, 2018 6:30 am

Tailwinds13 wrote:
I think MEX makes a great Latin American gateway to Asia.

MEX makes a rather poor gateway to Asia, due to its performance-inhibiting elevation.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
c933103
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Re: China-Latin America Air Links Thread

Mon Apr 09, 2018 6:52 am

Last year, CZ said they will open 3-5 new destinations each in South America + Africa on direct flight, including Brazil and Argentina.
What's the different between Russian settlement in secessionist territories in Caucasus/Eastern Europe, and historical Western settlement in colonial Africa?
 
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Zoedyn
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Re: China-Latin America Air Links Thread

Mon Apr 09, 2018 4:13 pm

KrustyTheKlown wrote:
Zoedyn wrote:
PVG-MEX (the only nonstop service available now, colored in orange, operated by Aeroméxico for almost a decade, initially with a stop in TIJ)


AM99 from PVG to MEX is a nonstop flight, but the MEX to PVG leg (AM98) still operates with a stop in TIJ.


Thanks for pointing this out :checkmark:
That means we are yet to see a round-trip service that is fully nonstop on China-Latin America routes
 
dcajet
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Re: China-Latin America Air Links Thread

Mon Apr 09, 2018 4:20 pm

c933103 wrote:
Last year, CZ said they will open 3-5 new destinations each in South America + Africa on direct flight, including Brazil and Argentina.


http://www.scmp.com/news/china/article/ ... expand-its
Keep calm and wash your hands.
 
MalevTU134
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Re: China-Latin America Air Links Thread

Mon Apr 09, 2018 4:23 pm

Zoedyn wrote:
xiaotung wrote:
CZ have been rumoured to be looking at AKL as a transit point for their flights from CAN to continue to South America. NZ have the potential to connect the 2 continents from their Asian flights to their EZE route but unfortunately current Asian slots do not allow for a convenient connection. Last time I checked, EK and ET carry a lot of traffic between China and Brazil/Argentina via their DXB and ADD hub respectively.


It would definitely be a masterful stroke for CZ to launch services btwn China and South America via AKL or any other Oceanic airport like PER as a transit point! Almost too good to be true :D

Sorry to rain on your parade, but traffic rights apart, PER is probably the worst spot in Australia to route it through, geographically speaking. AKL is the only one making sense, but it's already well served to South America.
Last edited by MalevTU134 on Mon Apr 09, 2018 4:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
EddieDude
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Re: China-Latin America Air Links Thread

Mon Apr 09, 2018 4:35 pm

Zoedyn wrote:
That means we are yet to see a round-trip service that is fully nonstop on China-Latin America routes

Yes. Perhaps once the new MEX (longer runways) is operational and AM has received all of its 789s, MEX-PVG could be done nonstop? That would be very interesting. In any case, I think AM will focus first on making the flight daily.

AM was also looking at PEK (via TIJ or wherever), but HU launched it first.
Upcoming flights:
April/May: AM MEX-SCL 788 (J), AM EZE-MEX 789 (J).
 
dcajet
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Re: China-Latin America Air Links Thread

Mon Apr 09, 2018 5:26 pm

MalevTU134 wrote:
Zoedyn wrote:
xiaotung wrote:
CZ have been rumoured to be looking at AKL as a transit point for their flights from CAN to continue to South America. NZ have the potential to connect the 2 continents from their Asian flights to their EZE route but unfortunately current Asian slots do not allow for a convenient connection. Last time I checked, EK and ET carry a lot of traffic between China and Brazil/Argentina via their DXB and ADD hub respectively.


It would definitely be a masterful stroke for CZ to launch services btwn China and South America via AKL or any other Oceanic airport like PER as a transit point! Almost too good to be true :D

Sorry to rain on your parade, but traffic rights apart, PER is probably the worst spot in Australia to route it through, geographically speaking. AKL is the only one making sense, but it's already well served to South America.


Routing a hypothetical CAN-EZE via PER is shorter to the tune of nearly 1,000 miles than via AKL or the Australian East Coast. Trouble is the PER-EZE leg that goes directly over the South Pole, with all the challenges that implies - let alone getting regulatory approval. Not sure if that is what you meant above.

Rds,
Keep calm and wash your hands.
 
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KrustyTheKlown
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Re: China-Latin America Air Links Thread

Mon Apr 09, 2018 5:27 pm

Technically HU's PEK-TIJ counts as a fully nonstop China-Latin America route.
 
MalevTU134
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Re: China-Latin America Air Links Thread

Mon Apr 09, 2018 5:56 pm

dcajet wrote:
MalevTU134 wrote:
Zoedyn wrote:

It would definitely be a masterful stroke for CZ to launch services btwn China and South America via AKL or any other Oceanic airport like PER as a transit point! Almost too good to be true :D

Sorry to rain on your parade, but traffic rights apart, PER is probably the worst spot in Australia to route it through, geographically speaking. AKL is the only one making sense, but it's already well served to South America.


Routing a hypothetical CAN-EZE via PER is shorter to the tune of nearly 1,000 miles than via AKL or the Australian East Coast. Trouble is the PER-EZE leg that goes directly over the South Pole, with all the challenges that implies - let alone getting regulatory approval. Not sure if that is what you meant above.

Rds,

Yes, of course. You would never get approval to fly over the South Pole (PER-EZE GC route goes straight above the pole). Taking ETOPS and regulatory limitations into account, PER is quite inadequate.
Also, instead of these "heroic" routings across the southern seas, why not just do it through JNB?...


http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=can-per-ez ... 410&EU=kts
 
dcajet
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Re: China-Latin America Air Links Thread

Mon Apr 09, 2018 6:04 pm

Definitely out of bounds for a twin. Now, I wonder if a quad would be able to get regulatory approval? There are literally no alternatives other than USH and CHC at each end of the route.
Keep calm and wash your hands.
 
MalevTU134
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Re: China-Latin America Air Links Thread

Mon Apr 09, 2018 6:16 pm

dcajet wrote:
Definitely out of bounds for a twin. Now, I wonder if a quad would be able to get regulatory approval? There are literally no alternatives other than USH and CHC at each end of the route.

But why?? The distance through JNB is the same as through PER. Send the A380!! :D
 
dcajet
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Re: China-Latin America Air Links Thread

Mon Apr 09, 2018 6:18 pm

MalevTU134 wrote:
dcajet wrote:
Definitely out of bounds for a twin. Now, I wonder if a quad would be able to get regulatory approval? There are literally no alternatives other than USH and CHC at each end of the route.

But why?? The distance through JNB is the same as through PER. Send the A380!! :D


Reading the SCMP article, it is apparent that is the idea CZ is going for. The Argentina/Chile-Australia/New Zealand market is already getting crowded with very nice deals to be had, especially since LATAM launched the route to Melbourne.

380? Now that's an idea, considering CZ does not have many places to deploy it to... other than LAX, AMS and PEK! :idea: :stirthepot:
Keep calm and wash your hands.
 
MalevTU134
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Re: China-Latin America Air Links Thread

Mon Apr 09, 2018 6:28 pm

dcajet wrote:
MalevTU134 wrote:
dcajet wrote:
Definitely out of bounds for a twin. Now, I wonder if a quad would be able to get regulatory approval? There are literally no alternatives other than USH and CHC at each end of the route.

But why?? The distance through JNB is the same as through PER. Send the A380!! :D


Reading the SCMP article, it is apparent that is the idea CZ is going for. The Argentina/Chile-Australia/New Zealand market is already getting crowded with very nice deals to be had, especially since LATAM launched the route to Melbourne.

380? Now that's an idea, considering CZ does not have many places to deploy it to... other than LAX, AMS and PEK! :idea: :stirthepot:

Exactly. And they could do GRU through LAD.

There should be no problems filling a A380 4-5x weekly from EZE to JNB/CAN and connections to China and E. Asia. Especially at the fares CZ offers on other long-haul markets...
 
dcajet
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Re: China-Latin America Air Links Thread

Mon Apr 09, 2018 6:39 pm

MalevTU134 wrote:
dcajet wrote:
MalevTU134 wrote:
But why?? The distance through JNB is the same as through PER. Send the A380!! :D


Reading the SCMP article, it is apparent that is the idea CZ is going for. The Argentina/Chile-Australia/New Zealand market is already getting crowded with very nice deals to be had, especially since LATAM launched the route to Melbourne.

380? Now that's an idea, considering CZ does not have many places to deploy it to... other than LAX, AMS and PEK! :idea: :stirthepot:

Exactly. And they could do GRU through LAD.

There should be no problems filling a A380 4-5x weekly from EZE to JNB/CAN and connections to China and E. Asia. Especially at the fares CZ offers on other long-haul markets...


I remember seeing the long lines of Asian travellers waiting to board MH's EZE-CPT-JNB-KUL flights @ EZE. We all know what happened to that flight, and not for lack of traffic. Anyway, that market has now been taken over by EK, ET and QR.
Keep calm and wash your hands.
 
MalevTU134
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Re: China-Latin America Air Links Thread

Mon Apr 09, 2018 6:47 pm

dcajet wrote:
MalevTU134 wrote:
dcajet wrote:

Reading the SCMP article, it is apparent that is the idea CZ is going for. The Argentina/Chile-Australia/New Zealand market is already getting crowded with very nice deals to be had, especially since LATAM launched the route to Melbourne.

380? Now that's an idea, considering CZ does not have many places to deploy it to... other than LAX, AMS and PEK! :idea: :stirthepot:

Exactly. And they could do GRU through LAD.

There should be no problems filling a A380 4-5x weekly from EZE to JNB/CAN and connections to China and E. Asia. Especially at the fares CZ offers on other long-haul markets...


I remember seeing the long lines of Asian travellers waiting to board MH's EZE-CPT-JNB-KUL flights @ EZE. We all know what happened to that flight, and not for lack of traffic. Anyway, that market has now been taken over by EK, ET and QR.

Oh yes, took that flight several times on MH's delightful 744s. Many on those flights were Argentinean backpackers though. Remember sitting next to a girl who came back after 2 months in Vietnam once. I only flew to/from CPT.
 
dcajet
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Re: China-Latin America Air Links Thread

Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:20 pm

MalevTU134 wrote:
dcajet wrote:
MalevTU134 wrote:
Exactly. And they could do GRU through LAD.

There should be no problems filling a A380 4-5x weekly from EZE to JNB/CAN and connections to China and E. Asia. Especially at the fares CZ offers on other long-haul markets...


I remember seeing the long lines of Asian travellers waiting to board MH's EZE-CPT-JNB-KUL flights @ EZE. We all know what happened to that flight, and not for lack of traffic. Anyway, that market has now been taken over by EK, ET and QR.

Oh yes, took that flight several times on MH's delightful 744s. Many on those flights were Argentinean backpackers though. Remember sitting next to a girl who came back after 2 months in Vietnam once. I only flew to/from CPT.


Oh yes... one of my nieces took that flight when she went backpacking to SE Asia a few years ago, only 18 at the time, much to my sister's anxiety. Not the highest yielding crowd, I am afraid. A friend of mine who works breeding polo horses in Monte, 100 km SW of Bs As used to go often to KL on business with the Sultan - often and not the only one in his business!
Keep calm and wash your hands.
 
c933103
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Re: China-Latin America Air Links Thread

Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:33 am

I am actually thinking about would they use URC to launch flight as URC is closer to some part of South America that make nonstop flight possible without stop and thus not needing transit visa. But despite CZ have a URC hub I don't think it would be strategical for them to do so?
What's the different between Russian settlement in secessionist territories in Caucasus/Eastern Europe, and historical Western settlement in colonial Africa?
 
MalevTU134
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Re: China-Latin America Air Links Thread

Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:52 am

c933103 wrote:
I am actually thinking about would they use URC to launch flight as URC is closer to some part of South America that make nonstop flight possible without stop and thus not needing transit visa. But despite CZ have a URC hub I don't think it would be strategical for them to do so?

Interesting thought. But, then, after a 19 (or so) hour flight from GRU (only conceivable airport to do this from), you find yourself in Ürümqi, not exactly the centre of the Universe, and with less-than-stellar connections (I would have thought - I haven't checked) to the rest of China and E. Asia.
 
c933103
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Re: China-Latin America Air Links Thread

Tue Apr 10, 2018 2:37 pm

MalevTU134 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
I am actually thinking about would they use URC to launch flight as URC is closer to some part of South America that make nonstop flight possible without stop and thus not needing transit visa. But despite CZ have a URC hub I don't think it would be strategical for them to do so?

Interesting thought. But, then, after a 19 (or so) hour flight from GRU (only conceivable airport to do this from), you find yourself in Ürümqi, not exactly the centre of the Universe, and with less-than-stellar connections (I would have thought - I haven't checked) to the rest of China and E. Asia.

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/airports/urc/routes
It have rather abundant connection to most Chinese cities including secondary and tertiary cities except a few places like Hainan, Northeast China, Tibet. I think they have had plans for flight to Korea and Japan too.
And I am also thinking about would it be necessary for a refueling stop at like FOR/REF.
What's the different between Russian settlement in secessionist territories in Caucasus/Eastern Europe, and historical Western settlement in colonial Africa?
 
PDPsol
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Re: China-Latin America Air Links Thread

Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:46 pm

Perhaps the best, most commercially-viable non-stop alternative is from GRU, not EZE or SCL, to Southeast Asia, specifically SIN. Nonstop GRU-SIN clocks out at 16,000 kilometers, approximately 650 kilometers over the to-be-launched SIN-JFK/EWR flight. Can the A350-900 ULR variant do a GRU-SIN nonstop with a full load, no penalties? IF so, that could very well be the 'cash cow' route everyone is looking for, connecting the largest, most important metropolitan center in all Latin America, Sao Paulo, with the leading hub in Southeast Asia, SIN. From SIN, traffic can connect onward to China and Northeast Asia (another 6 hours away for Japan, Korea and northeast PRC), or throughout Southeast Asia and South Asia.

The other potential nonstop link could be PTY to Northeast Asia, NRT most viable.
 
DominoxX
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Re: China-Latin America Air Links Thread

Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:48 pm

I'd like to point out that there were credible rumours (staff at SCL) that Air China about 4-3 years back was looking into SCL... That was when Argentina wasn't doing well, so now EZE would be more likely?
Thank u, next.
 
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Zoedyn
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Re: China-Latin America Air Links Thread

Tue Apr 10, 2018 4:02 pm

A list of some major near-antipodes routes btwn Asia & South America and the distances to challenge the range capability of any latest advanced aircraft claiming excellence in ultra long range
KUL—CUE 19955 km
TPE—ASU 19904 km
XIY—SCL 19882 km
CKG—BOG 19830 km
PEK—BHI 19827 km
SIN—UIO 19734 km
BKK—LIM 19726 km
MNL—CGB 19697 km
ICN—MVD 19644 km
PVG—EZE 19596 km
Image
 
MalevTU134
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Re: China-Latin America Air Links Thread

Tue Apr 10, 2018 4:09 pm

PDPsol wrote:
Perhaps the best, most commercially-viable non-stop alternative is from GRU, not EZE or SCL, to Southeast Asia, specifically SIN. Nonstop GRU-SIN clocks out at 16,000 kilometers, approximately 650 kilometers over the to-be-launched SIN-JFK/EWR flight. Can the A350-900 ULR variant do a GRU-SIN nonstop with a full load, no penalties? IF so, that could very well be the 'cash cow' route everyone is looking for, connecting the largest, most important metropolitan center in all Latin America, Sao Paulo, with the leading hub in Southeast Asia, SIN. From SIN, traffic can connect onward to China and Northeast Asia (another 6 hours away for Japan, Korea and northeast PRC), or throughout Southeast Asia and South Asia.

The other potential nonstop link could be PTY to Northeast Asia, NRT most viable.

See this thread for in-depth discussion on this :

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1390029&start=100
 
MalevTU134
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Re: China-Latin America Air Links Thread

Tue Apr 10, 2018 4:12 pm

Zoedyn wrote:
A list of some major near-antipodes routes btwn Asia & South America and the distances to challenge the range capability of any latest advanced aircraft claiming excellence in ultra long range
KUL—CUE 19955 km
TPE—ASU 19904 km
XIY—SCL 19882 km
CKG—BOG 19830 km
PEK—BHI 19827 km
SIN—UIO 19734 km
BKK—LIM 19726 km
MNL—CGB 19697 km
ICN—MVD 19644 km
PVG—EZE 19596 km
Image

So...you found some antipodes...or near antipodes. Congratulations!! Now what? How does this add to the discussion?... None of those will be flown in the foreseeable future.
 
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Zoedyn
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Re: China-Latin America Air Links Thread

Tue Apr 10, 2018 4:23 pm

Technically, KHG has a better chance to connect nonstop with SA just from within China
KHG-GRU 14377 km
URC-GRU 15264 km
KHG-EZE 15997 km
URC-EZE 16949 km

KHG is fully capable of handling B747 in terms of infrastructure
Image
 
dcajet
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Re: China-Latin America Air Links Thread

Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:27 pm

PDPsol wrote:
Perhaps the best, most commercially-viable non-stop alternative is from GRU, not EZE or SCL, to Southeast Asia, specifically SIN. Nonstop GRU-SIN clocks out at 16,000 kilometers, approximately 650 kilometers over the to-be-launched SIN-JFK/EWR flight. Can the A350-900 ULR variant do a GRU-SIN nonstop with a full load, no penalties? IF so, that could very well be the 'cash cow' route everyone is looking for, connecting the largest, most important metropolitan center in all Latin America, Sao Paulo, with the leading hub in Southeast Asia, SIN. From SIN, traffic can connect onward to China and Northeast Asia (another 6 hours away for Japan, Korea and northeast PRC), or throughout Southeast Asia and South Asia.

The other potential nonstop link could be PTY to Northeast Asia, NRT most viable.


The problem I see with such a hypothetical flight (GRU-SIN) is that it would have to be filled with mostly super high yielding business class paying customers to even begin to make economic sense. Such a flight would be restrictions-heavy and incredibly expensive to operate (just think the sheer amount of fuel it'd have to carry - and that costs a lot of money) and not sure there is enough high caliber traffic ($$) between SCL/EZE/GRU (those would be the feeding points for such a flight) to justify it. Sure, there is plenty of lower yielding traffic between Asia and South America, but for such traffic we can count on EK, ET, QR, etc.
Keep calm and wash your hands.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: China-Latin America Air Links Thread

Tue Apr 10, 2018 11:07 pm

KrustyTheKlown wrote:
Zoedyn wrote:
PVG-MEX (the only nonstop service available now, colored in orange, operated by Aeroméxico for almost a decade, initially with a stop in TIJ)


AM99 from PVG to MEX is a nonstop flight, but the MEX to PVG leg (AM98) still operates with a stop in TIJ.


Likely because of hot and high MEX. But if upgraded to a B789, could there be a nonstop flight?

A nonstop beyond MEX might have problems with respect to crewing as well as one would likely need 2 complete crews per flight.
 
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KrustyTheKlown
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Re: China-Latin America Air Links Thread

Wed Apr 11, 2018 4:46 am

aemoreira1981 wrote:
KrustyTheKlown wrote:
Zoedyn wrote:
PVG-MEX (the only nonstop service available now, colored in orange, operated by Aeroméxico for almost a decade, initially with a stop in TIJ)


AM99 from PVG to MEX is a nonstop flight, but the MEX to PVG leg (AM98) still operates with a stop in TIJ.


Likely because of hot and high MEX. But if upgraded to a B789, could there be a nonstop flight?

A nonstop beyond MEX might have problems with respect to crewing as well as one would likely need 2 complete crews per flight.


I'm not completely sure, but I think the B788 has a marginally better range out of MEX than the B789 (the B789 engines have higher thrust but plane is also heavier).

A B788 with B789 engines would be the best choice for range out of MEX. Apparently Boeing offers the B788 with a "hi-thrust engines" option but I'm not sure if Aeromexico ordered this option.

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