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stlgph
Posts: 11338
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 4:19 pm

Re: American to start ORH to PHL

Tue Apr 10, 2018 4:52 pm

MO11 wrote:
This is hilarious. Are these comments from Twitter or did the Worcester airport post this?

http://flyorh.com/americanarlines.php


That's not the airport's homepage.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
NEAvGuy
Posts: 16
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 5:56 pm

Re: American to start ORH to PHL

Tue Apr 10, 2018 4:52 pm

MO11 wrote:
This is hilarious. Are these comments from Twitter or did the Worcester airport post this?

http://flyorh.com/americanarlines.php



That site is not affiliated with the airport. Run by a local guy who likes to promote the airport.
 
airbazar
Posts: 10369
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

Re: American to start ORH to PHL

Tue Apr 10, 2018 5:22 pm

NEAvGuy wrote:
airbazar wrote:
cessna53996 wrote:
Massport better worry about AA's commitment to ORH because the fact that HVN will have more daily flights on AA than the second biggest city in New England should be saying something.

Yes, it says for most people BOS is a 30 minute drive away where you can avoid flying thru PHL and find a multitude of non-stop options.
At the end of the day, road access to ORH is terrible and only a few people will prefer to fly from there.


BOS is a 30 minute drive during rush hour even if you live in Boston. From the Worcester area, most people count on at least 90 minutes with traffic and generally plan for at least two hours just in case.

Two problems with that statement: 1) "Worcester area" is subjective. The reality is the money doesn't live in Worcester, it lives in towns like Hopkinton, Westborough, etc. 2) Business people don't want to depart at 9:30am and then connect. They would rather leave at 5am or 6am and fly non-stop from BOS. At that time it's not a 90 minute drive.

Road access to ORH is far from "terrible". There is no direct highway access, but hundreds of thousands of pax in the catchment area have a trip of under 30 minutes to the airport. From the highway, the last three miles or so are over city streets, but with GPS, it's no sweat. In fact, I'd rather crawl along those city streets than sit in miles of traffic on the highways leading into BOS. And when you get to the airport, cheap parking is right next to the terminal.


And yet these same "hundreds of thousands of pax", every day for years and years chose and continue to chose to drive to BOS.
It's a simple fact, if there was money to be made at ORH airlines would be there. The fact that they need incentives from Massport makes it clear that there is no money to be made in ORH.

As jetBlue has proven, if an airline offers good service, pax from all over will find the airport. The problem here is not the airport, it's the poor product announced yesterday by AA. They have time to fix it, and ORH pax should let them know it needs to be fixed.

I'm not sure B6 has proven anything. Worcester is New England's second largest city and B6 still needs "favors" from Massport to operate 2 measly flights to Florida. If you can't make money on a flight to Florida out of New England then nothing else works.

Access is a real issue. BOS, PVD, MHT, all have spent billions over he last decade improving airport access. You may not mind city streets and GPS but most people do.
 
catiii
Posts: 3871
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Re: American to start ORH to PHL

Tue Apr 10, 2018 5:32 pm

airbazar wrote:

Access is a real issue. BOS, PVD, MHT, all have spent billions over he last decade improving airport access. You may not mind city streets and GPS but most people do.


Well said. I would also note this is the same issue HVN also faces.
 
evank516
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Re: American to start ORH to PHL

Tue Apr 10, 2018 5:50 pm

catiii wrote:
airbazar wrote:

Access is a real issue. BOS, PVD, MHT, all have spent billions over he last decade improving airport access. You may not mind city streets and GPS but most people do.


Well said. I would also note this is the same issue HVN also faces.


Not really the same. HVN lacks direct access to a major highway, yes, but it's about a mile from I-95 and the drive is mostly through residential streets once you exit at Main Street Annex. ORH is further away from the nearest major highway.
 
cloudboy
Topic Author
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Re: American to start ORH to PHL

Tue Apr 10, 2018 6:02 pm

evank516 wrote:
catiii wrote:
airbazar wrote:

Access is a real issue. BOS, PVD, MHT, all have spent billions over he last decade improving airport access. You may not mind city streets and GPS but most people do.


Well said. I would also note this is the same issue HVN also faces.


Not really the same. HVN lacks direct access to a major highway, yes, but it's about a mile from I-95 and the drive is mostly through residential streets once you exit at Main Street Annex. ORH is further away from the nearest major highway.


Although I agree that Access is a huge problem for ORH, it is not that difficult. Most old - timers still go through the city to get there, but you can come up Cambridge st from 290 or Oxford St from the pike - you just have to go around to Ludlow to get to airport drive. That is the last leg that the residents in that area are fighting.
"Six becoming three doesn't create more Americans that want to fly." -Adam Pilarski
 
NEAvGuy
Posts: 16
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Re: American to start ORH to PHL

Tue Apr 10, 2018 6:57 pm

airbazar wrote:
NEAvGuy wrote:
airbazar wrote:
Yes, it says for most people BOS is a 30 minute drive away where you can avoid flying thru PHL and find a multitude of non-stop options.
At the end of the day, road access to ORH is terrible and only a few people will prefer to fly from there.


BOS is a 30 minute drive during rush hour even if you live in Boston. From the Worcester area, most people count on at least 90 minutes with traffic and generally plan for at least two hours just in case.

Two problems with that statement: 1) "Worcester area" is subjective. The reality is the money doesn't live in Worcester, it lives in towns like Hopkinton, Westborough, etc. 2) Business people don't want to depart at 9:30am and then connect. They would rather leave at 5am or 6am and fly non-stop from BOS. At that time it's not a 90 minute drive.

Road access to ORH is far from "terrible". There is no direct highway access, but hundreds of thousands of pax in the catchment area have a trip of under 30 minutes to the airport. From the highway, the last three miles or so are over city streets, but with GPS, it's no sweat. In fact, I'd rather crawl along those city streets than sit in miles of traffic on the highways leading into BOS. And when you get to the airport, cheap parking is right next to the terminal.


And yet these same "hundreds of thousands of pax", every day for years and years chose and continue to chose to drive to BOS.
It's a simple fact, if there was money to be made at ORH airlines would be there. The fact that they need incentives from Massport makes it clear that there is no money to be made in ORH.

As jetBlue has proven, if an airline offers good service, pax from all over will find the airport. The problem here is not the airport, it's the poor product announced yesterday by AA. They have time to fix it, and ORH pax should let them know it needs to be fixed.

I'm not sure B6 has proven anything. Worcester is New England's second largest city and B6 still needs "favors" from Massport to operate 2 measly flights to Florida. If you can't make money on a flight to Florida out of New England then nothing else works.

Access is a real issue. BOS, PVD, MHT, all have spent billions over he last decade improving airport access. You may not mind city streets and GPS but most people do.



I wasn't defending the AA service. Unless changed, it will fail for some of the reasons you state. And I'm not suggesting ORH will ever compete with BOS. But if you draw the catchment area to include only those pax that are closer in time (given existing roads) to ORH than to another airport, the market is large enough to generate 500,000 annual enplanements with the right mix of service. If ORH can get service to three hubs, with multiple turns at each, it will grow very quickly. The B6 flight to JFK is a start, but the AA flight to PHL adds very little. If AA did it right, along the lines of what it does in MHT, it would attract sufficient business. But a badly timed token flight is not a step in that direction.

Incentives got B6 to ORH; loyal passengers have made it expand service.
 
catiii
Posts: 3871
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Re: American to start ORH to PHL

Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:57 pm

evank516 wrote:
catiii wrote:
airbazar wrote:

Access is a real issue. BOS, PVD, MHT, all have spent billions over he last decade improving airport access. You may not mind city streets and GPS but most people do.


Well said. I would also note this is the same issue HVN also faces.


Not really the same. HVN lacks direct access to a major highway, yes, but it's about a mile from I-95 and the drive is mostly through residential streets once you exit at Main Street Annex. ORH is further away from the nearest major highway.


One is a 5 min drive, one is a 12 min drive. Both are through residential neighborhoods.
 
uconn99
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Re: American to start ORH to PHL

Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:52 pm

ORH to BDL door to door is 1 hour and 15 minutes as well with plenty of PHL flight to choose from.
 
NEAvGuy
Posts: 16
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 5:56 pm

Re: American to start ORH to PHL

Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:05 pm

uconn99 wrote:
ORH to BDL door to door is 1 hour and 15 minutes as well with plenty of PHL flight to choose from.


I've used BDL at times, but my house to ORH is 17 minutes, with no walk from a parking garage or shuttle from an economy lot. So anyone who offers reasonable service from ORH will get my business. I wish AA would do that, but one badly timed flight a day won't get my attention. Now B6 is a different story, and I will continue to use them whenever possible, especially with a host of new connections at JFK starting next month and a CAT III system that will virtually guarantee I get home. In fact, when I arrive at ORH, I can be home before I would even get on the Logan Shuttle or hit 91 from BDL.
 
PVD757
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Re: American to start ORH to PHL

Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:12 pm

Lots of ORH area passengers use PVD which is just under 1 hour drive. Interesting move by AA, we’ll see what pans out.
 
ScottB
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Re: American to start ORH to PHL

Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:17 pm

F27500 wrote:
Even US pulled the Dash8s outta there on PHL in the late 90s. What did ORH do to piss everyone off like that ?


The growth of low-fare competition in the region -- at PVD, BDL, MHT, and finally BOS played a role. Worcester to PVD is usually a fairly easy drive, especially with the upgrades to MA/RI 146 made over the last 20 years. MHT and BDL also compete for portions of the catchment region around Worcester; i.e. a community like Sturbridge is only about 15 miles from ORH, but factoring in drive time, BDL might be a more convenient choice in the end with all-freeway access and far more destinations/flights. Similarly, ORH would compete with MHT (and BOS) from places in north-central Mass. like Fitchburg and Leominster. Typically, niche service to a smaller market like ORH is more expensive to provide due to smaller aircraft and fixed station costs, so the bleed of passengers to other airports made that service less sustainable.

Another factor would be prop avoidance: Quite a few passengers will drive further to avoid prop flights due to perceived safety issues, worse schedule reliability, and discomfort (bumpy, noisy flights). When the schedule is superior at pretty much every airport within an hour's drive (BOS, PVD, BDL, MHT) and most or all of those airports offer jet service, a prop to ORH is a hard sell. It's an even bigger challenge when the last flight of the night is often cancelled or significantly delayed, and PHL was very delay-prone back in the 1990s. It doesn't take too many occurrences of the last flight being cancelled and either being stuck overnight or having to make your way back to ORH from BOS to get your car to turn passengers away from ORH as a choice.

NEAvGuy wrote:
if you draw the catchment area to include only those pax that are closer in time (given existing roads) to ORH than to another airport, the market is large enough to generate 500,000 annual enplanements with the right mix of service. If ORH can get service to three hubs, with multiple turns at each, it will grow very quickly.


The problem is that travel time isn't the only factor. Sure, multiple daily turns would help, but it would still be difficult for ORH to compete with three daily to PHL against the hourly service at BOS. If you're delayed getting into PHL, there's a decent shot you can get on the next flight to BOS. You might be waiting 6 hours for the next flight to ORH. The legacy carriers generally won't be interested because ORH can't generate much of a revenue premium (if any, at all) over BOS or the other airports in the region -- so why would they compete with themselves by providing a more expensive service?
 
twaconnie
Posts: 293
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Re: American to start ORH to PHL

Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:40 pm

I don't know how the loads were but as far back 1960 Northeast airlines had 3 R/T's a day from LGA - ORH with DC6-B equipment. these flights lasted for some time.
 
cheapgreek
Posts: 566
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2017 3:57 pm

Re: American to start ORH to PHL

Tue Apr 10, 2018 11:57 pm

catiii wrote:
airbazar wrote:

Access is a real issue. BOS, PVD, MHT, all have spent billions over he last decade improving airport access. You may not mind city streets and GPS but most people do.


Well said. I would also note this is the same issue HVN also faces.


I've done both ORH and HVN. HVN is much easier from I-95 its a few minutes via Townsend ave and then two short blocks to the airport. ORH is through downtown streets.
 
evank516
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Re: American to start ORH to PHL

Wed Apr 11, 2018 1:22 pm

catiii wrote:
evank516 wrote:
catiii wrote:

Well said. I would also note this is the same issue HVN also faces.


Not really the same. HVN lacks direct access to a major highway, yes, but it's about a mile from I-95 and the drive is mostly through residential streets once you exit at Main Street Annex. ORH is further away from the nearest major highway.


One is a 5 min drive, one is a 12 min drive. Both are through residential neighborhoods.


And the 5 minute drive is for HVN. Still half the time, so not really the same issue.
 
lowfareair
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Re: American to start ORH to PHL

Wed Apr 11, 2018 1:52 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
cessna53996 wrote:
evank516 wrote:
Looks like one daily flight? Not timed well for connections either.


Flight times according to the pamphlet handed out at the announcement:
PHL-ORH 0805-0905
ORH-PHL 09:30-10:39

Assuming this is accurate, this flight is in no way catering for business pax.


That early PHL departure isn't as limiting as you think - there's a whole lot of early arrivals to PHL. Using a 30 minute MCT one can connect from:

CMH
SYR
IND
DAY
CVG
YOW
ILS
CHS
JAX
GSP
ORF
GSO
BOS(!)
ITH
GRR
CHO
RDU
PWM
ALB
YUL
ROC
TYS
PVD
SBY
BTV
BDL
ERI
RIC
ABE
PHX
MHT
UNV
PIT
ROA
ART
SWF
IPT
AVP
ISP
SFO
LGA
MDT
HVN
DCA
LAS
SAN
LAX
PHX
DEN
SJU


I believe the D to D MCT is 40 or 45 minutes at PHL. Can you provide the list of cities available with AA's actual D to D MCT at PHL?
 
cessna53996
Posts: 126
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Re: American to start ORH to PHL

Wed Apr 11, 2018 2:43 pm

lowfareair wrote:
I believe the D to D MCT is 40 or 45 minutes at PHL. Can you provide the list of cities available with AA's actual D to D MCT at PHL?


Today's logical connecting flight starting after 11:19am (40 min after arrival into PHL) include DFW, CLT, BNA, ATL, SDF, IND, RIC, and CHS until around 1:00pm. Slim pickings for sure... And

For a 40 minute connection time (arriving in PHL by 7:20am) going PHL-ORH, origins include TYS, CLE, CMH, PHF, RIC, PIT, ART, SFO, DCA, LAS, PHX, SAN, and LAX.
 
lowfareair
Posts: 327
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Re: American to start ORH to PHL

Wed Apr 11, 2018 2:58 pm

cessna53996 wrote:
lowfareair wrote:
I believe the D to D MCT is 40 or 45 minutes at PHL. Can you provide the list of cities available with AA's actual D to D MCT at PHL?


Today's logical connecting flight starting after 11:19am (40 min after arrival into PHL) include DFW, CLT, BNA, ATL, SDF, IND, RIC, and CHS until around 1:00pm. Slim pickings for sure... And

For a 40 minute connection time (arriving in PHL by 7:20am) going PHL-ORH, origins include TYS, CLE, CMH, PHF, RIC, PIT, ART, SFO, DCA, LAS, PHX, SAN, and LAX.


I'm sure we'll know soon if the flight times posted are accurate (sounds like it may be incorrect and there will be a RON at ORH), but if they are accurate, it looks like the only reasonable round trip connection is RIC. RIC has 7 daily nonstops out of BOS on DL/B6 at very reasonable prices. This flight targets nobody.
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: American to start ORH to PHL

Wed Apr 11, 2018 3:29 pm

I remember when they flew ORH JFK with a Saab!
 
cheapgreek
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Re: American to start ORH to PHL

Wed Apr 11, 2018 4:32 pm

I have never seen a major start new service with one R/T. Frequency is what people want and the normal number for new flights is usually three, especially on short flights such as ORH-PHL. It may be due to the shortage of RJ's with Air Wisconsin going to UA and the Dash-8's being gone in a few months.
 
ilovepabst
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Re: American to start ORH to PHL

Wed Apr 11, 2018 4:40 pm

cheapgreek wrote:
I have never seen a major start new service with one R/T. Frequency is what people want and the normal number for new flights is usually three, especially on short flights such as ORH-PHL. It may be due to the shortage of RJ's with Air Wisconsin going to UA and the Dash-8's being gone in a few months.

I seem to remember DL only had one daily ATL-ORH
 
cloudboy
Topic Author
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Re: American to start ORH to PHL

Thu Apr 12, 2018 12:11 pm

From today's Telegram - Cat III supposedly has nothing to do with American starting service to ORH.
http://www.telegram.com/news/20180411/w ... es-flights
"Six becoming three doesn't create more Americans that want to fly." -Adam Pilarski
 
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LotsaRunway
Posts: 447
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Re: American to start ORH to PHL

Thu Apr 12, 2018 2:07 pm

cloudboy wrote:
From today's Telegram - Cat III supposedly has nothing to do with American starting service to ORH.
http://www.telegram.com/news/20180411/w ... es-flights

Nope! Cat III is not going to help Piedmont E145s land in ORH, but Cat II might. And even though B6 flights can use Cat III, my understanding is that they often don't push it to the limits and have higher minimums than the Cat III specs offer. On the other hand, larger cargo jets will use Cat III and routinely operate in conditions well beyond what airlines will consider, but ORH doesn't have any large (or small) Fed Ex or UPS flights. In fact, ORH appears to average 4-5 landings per day of any type of aircraft, two of which are Cat III capable B6 E190s. Add the AA E145 and the B6 flight to JFK and you get 6-7 daily landings. The FAA would never have considered funds for ORH Cat III if it weren't for the brass knuckles in MassPort's hands because it's such a large investment for such a small amount of operations that might use it. Don't get me wrong, I love ORH but always felt Cat III was overkill when a Cat II would have done the job. While I'm pleased B6 is doing reasonably well at ORH, I'm guessing that when MassPort told B6 they had to start ORH flights for BOS operational favors, B6 said not without Cat III, expecting it to not happen. And today we have a fully operational Cat III system just in case one of the 4-5 daily landings might need it.
 
cloudboy
Topic Author
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Re: American to start ORH to PHL

Thu Apr 12, 2018 7:58 pm

Does Rectrix use Cat III on any of their jets?
"Six becoming three doesn't create more Americans that want to fly." -Adam Pilarski
 
cessna53996
Posts: 126
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2013 12:27 am

Re: American to start ORH to PHL

Thu Apr 12, 2018 8:32 pm

cloudboy wrote:
Does Rectrix use Cat III on any of their jets?

The Rectrix fleet barely ever touches ORH.
 
tomaheath
Posts: 688
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2014 11:58 pm

Re: American to start ORH to PHL

Sat Apr 21, 2018 1:06 am

If anyone is interested this is now bookable. Arrives at ORH 9 am leaves at 9:30 on an E145.
 
727LOVER
Posts: 8633
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2001 12:22 am

Re: American to start ORH to PHL

Sun Jun 03, 2018 6:46 pm

For all the people that were complaining about only 1 daily flight......well. they've added a 2nd one.

Departures from ORH

6-ish AM
4-ish PM
"We must accept finite disappointment, but never lose infinite hope." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
ctrabs0114
Posts: 1117
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Re: American to start ORH to PHL

Sun Jun 03, 2018 7:07 pm

MO11 wrote:
This is hilarious. Are these comments from Twitter or did the Worcester airport post this?

http://flyorh.com/americanarlines.php


I get that ORH is a small airport, but my god, that webpage looks so horribly designed. I get that this is not an official website, but what kinda gave it away was the shilling for B6 at the bottom of the page.
2019: DAL, MCI, PHX, LAS, DFW, SAT, ORD, SLC, SEA, DTW, PHL, MIA, LAX; B73G (WN x3), B738 (WN, AA, DL), A20N (NK), MD83 (AA), B788 (AA x2), CS1 (DL), B739 (DL), B712 (DL), B752 (AA), B763 (AA), B77W (AA), B789 (AA)
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VS4ever
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Re: American to start ORH to PHL

Sun Jun 03, 2018 7:19 pm

727LOVER wrote:
For all the people that were complaining about only 1 daily flight......well. they've added a 2nd one.

Departures from ORH

6-ish AM
4-ish PM


Actually it's better than that, because they've abandoned the disaster of an original flight plan that was

PHL 0800-0905 ORH
ORH 0930-1039 PHL

Now it's.

ORH 0618- 0709 PHL
ORH 1619- 1710 PHL

PHL 1455-1510 ORH
PHL 2129-2224 ORH

Which is a WHOLE lot better. now you have a RON, an early departure for PHL and connections, a mid-afternoon to get connections late in the afternoon and a late night to get back to ORH

Now folks at ORH have something to work with, with 2 early from ORH to JFK/PHL a mid-afternoon to PHL and the evening flights to FLL and MCO, now I wonder if B6 is going come back with a 2nd to JFK to match?
That feeling when you sit at the end of a runway, brakes are released and the raw power takes over. Now that is a thing of beauty and it never gets old.
 
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SumChristianus
Posts: 697
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Re: American to start ORH to PHL

Sun Jun 03, 2018 7:21 pm

At least they're better committed commercially than the UA "chairman's flight"....
Would the 14:55 departure out of PHL be fed by long-haul domestic/transatlantic flights? It seems a long wait from early morning short hauls into PHL.
16:19 from ORH looks to feed into transatlantic schedules.
UA DL LH NW AA WN
Do not go gentle into that good night ...
Rage, rage against the dying of the light
 
cheapgreek
Posts: 566
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2017 3:57 pm

Re: American to start ORH to PHL

Sun Jun 03, 2018 9:21 pm

727LOVER wrote:
For all the people that were complaining about only 1 daily flight......well. they've added a 2nd one.

Departures from ORH

6-ish AM
4-ish PM


Now it stands a chance of succeeding. One R/T would not do it.
 
iyerhari
Posts: 1105
Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 4:25 pm

Re: American to start ORH to PHL

Sun Jun 03, 2018 9:31 pm

Good news 4 ORH finally - Massport efforts are finally making some payoffs... once DL comes onboard at ORH, there will be better connectivity from the top 3 carriers serving BOS - B6, DL and AA.
 
WingsOfLove
Posts: 223
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2018 12:54 am

Re: American to start ORH to PHL

Mon Jun 04, 2018 2:33 am

VS4ever wrote:
ORH 0618- 0709 PHL / ORH 1619- 1710 PHL / PHL 1455-1510 ORH / PHL 2129-2224 ORH


Excellent schedule and a significant investment. Will AA receive subsidies?
 
PHLCVGAMTK
Posts: 113
Joined: Tue Aug 29, 2017 6:50 pm

Re: American to start ORH to PHL

Mon Jun 04, 2018 3:23 am

As I pointed out when B6 started its ORH-JFK flight, one of the main competitors for ORH's catchment is Amtrak out of Providence or New London, but that the trains don't run early or late enough for same-day morning business travel to destinations outside of Midtown Manhattan. That can provide a steady base of O&D traffic, though of course Philadelphia is a smaller destination than New York. The midafternoon return connects well to and from Florida, the West Coast, all Europe departures and the early bank of Europe arrivals.

ORH is going to be a tiny spoke station on any airline's network, but that sort of service is the AA PHL hub's specialty. Congrats to ORH and Massport for ironing out the details so well in the passenger's favor.
 
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Jouhou
Posts: 2541
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Re: American to start ORH to PHL

Mon Jun 04, 2018 3:41 am

I also find BOS-PHL flights to be hard to find at a decent price. Whenever I'm looking for a flight they are always mostly booked. Hopefully this will make it a little easier for those of us living closer to BOS than ORH too...
情報
 
ahj2000
Posts: 1302
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Re: American to start ORH to PHL

Mon Jun 04, 2018 3:45 am

If this does well, I see a third then a CLT.
-Andrés Juánez
 
WingsOfLove
Posts: 223
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2018 12:54 am

Re: American to start ORH to PHL

Mon Jun 04, 2018 7:59 am

Cubsrule wrote:
It’s not a perfect analogy, but isn’t this something like ISP/HVN-PHL where AA has carved out a small but apparently profitable niche? ORH is long enough that it might catch some business O&D, and PHL is more or less on the way to most domestic places folks want to go from ORH.


Could HPN be next?

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