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Asiaflyer
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SAS places order for 50 A320neo

Tue Apr 10, 2018 7:48 am

Scandinavian Airlines has today placed an order for additional 50 A320neo according to press release from the company.

From Reuters:

Today, SAS has decided to order 50 Airbus A320neo aircraft with delivery from spring 2019 through 2023. This order means SAS for the first time will have a single-type fleet by 2023 that consists of the market's most efficient short- and medium-haul aircraft in terms of cost and environment. "Just over one year ago, we started to phase into service brand new Airbus A320neos, and since then we have received a very positive response from our customers. I'm therefore delighted that, through this order, we can continue improving and investing in our customer offering, and thereby SAS's future. We are also creating a single-type and more efficient fleet for the first time. Ordering 50 Airbus A320neos gives us access to the market's most efficient aircraft thereby enabling us to further improve our operational efficiency and to continue to reduce our climate-impacting emissions," says Rickard Gustafson,
President and CEO of SAS.
 
KLDC10
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Re: SAS places order for 50 A320neo

Tue Apr 10, 2018 7:52 am

Makes sense that they wish to transition to a single fleet type, but it's a shame to see the 737 disappear from another major European carrier's fleet.
DC9/MD90/MD11/F70/BAE146
737/738/739/744/748/752/763/772/789
A319/A320/A321/A332/A333/A346/A359
Q400/E170/E175/E190/CS300
 
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BlueSky1976
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Re: SAS places order for 50 A320neo

Tue Apr 10, 2018 7:56 am

Excellent choice. Way to go, SAS!
Proudly avoiding 737 MAX since 18.11.2020.
 
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MaxiAir
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Re: SAS places order for 50 A320neo

Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:15 am

Flown on - 306,313,318,319,320,321,332,333,343,345,346,359,35K,388, 712,733,734,735,736,73G,738,744,748,752,753,763,77E,77L,77W, 788, 789, M11, M1F, M88, CR7,CR9, E35,E45,E75,E90,E95, AR1,AR8, DHT,DH1,DH4, and some more ;)
 
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MrHMSH
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Re: SAS places order for 50 A320neo

Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:15 am

Unsurprising, with the A320neo already on property the odds were definitely in its favour, it will be a very good aircraft for them. I wonder if how many - if any - from this order will be A321neos, I'm pretty sure that option is always there, and maybe they could use the LR to open up some new routes in the future, the A321neoLR suits having multiple hubs/bases which is what SAS currently do.
 
skipness1E
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Re: SAS places order for 50 A320neo

Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:18 am

Wonder how many are for SAIL (SAS IRELAND) I wonder?
They're going the full Norwegian with that one and ironically due to BREXIT may need a UK AOC instead!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: SAS places order for 50 A320neo

Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:28 am

Also a nice order for Airbus. Amazing that there are still slots available for 2019.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Someone83
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Re: SAS places order for 50 A320neo

Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:30 am

Note that 35 is ordered directly from Airbus, while 15 is coming from a unknown leasing company. Thus the firsr aircraft in this batch is being delivered already in 2019

Engines is not announced, but I'll be surprised if they don't continue with CFM Leap

MrHMSH wrote:
Unsurprising, with the A320neo already on property the odds were definitely in its favour, it will be a very good aircraft for them. I wonder if how many - if any - from this order will be A321neos, I'm pretty sure that option is always there, and maybe they could use the LR to open up some new routes in the future, the A321neoLR suits having multiple hubs/bases which is what SAS currently do.


In the press release only the A320neo is mentioned, but whether they have an option to switch in unknown at the moment
 
Someone83
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Re: SAS places order for 50 A320neo

Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:35 am

The order also contains 5 options

In addition they mention the possibility for "options" from the leasing company
 
Airboe
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Re: SAS places order for 50 A320neo

Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:16 am

I am a little curious about this sentence:



(Quote from press release:)
https://www.sasgroup.net/en/sas-places- ... ype-fleet/


The list price of the 35 A320neo aircraft, including engines, directly purchased from Airbus amounts to just below USD 4 billion,



Does this mean they also buy the engines (which not yet officially has been selected) directly from Airbus?
- And is this not a bit unusual?


KR/
Airboe
I'm learning to fly, but I ain't got wings
Coming down is the hardest thing

- Tom Petty & The Heartbreakers
 
McG1967
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Re: SAS places order for 50 A320neo

Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:36 am

It means that the list price including engines is $4B and that they are purchasing 35 aircraft directly from Airbus.
 
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zkojq
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Re: SAS places order for 50 A320neo

Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:46 am

Excellent. Sounds like the A320neo has been a real winner for them so far. I wonder how many will be converted to A321neos?

KLDC10 wrote:
Makes sense that they wish to transition to a single fleet type, but it's a shame to see the 737 disappear from another major European carrier's fleet.

Agreed, especially SK. I really wanted them to operate a few 737-8MAXs. The aircraft would look particularly stunning in their livery.

skipness1E wrote:
Wonder how many are for SAIL (SAS IRELAND) I wonder?
They're going the full Norwegian with that one and ironically due to BREXIT may need a UK AOC instead!


I understood that SAIL were having crewing problems as is. SK can't convert existing SK crew over to SAIL and since these aircraft in the latest order are replacements, rather than growth, I think SAIL's scope will be somewhat limited.
First to fly the 787-9
 
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OA940
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Re: SAS places order for 50 A320neo

Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:14 am

Are they A320neo FAMILY aircraft (as in conversion rights to the A321neo) or just A320neos?
A350/CSeries = bae
 
GLANKG
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Re: SAS places order for 50 A320neo

Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:50 am

Solid results for A320 program, but does this deal boost the chance of a SK CSeries deal or decrease it?
 
Kikko19
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Re: SAS places order for 50 A320neo

Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:59 am

Oddly SAS will have same main fleet op by same a/c as their Finnish neighbors, might be a sign of merging in the future?
 
Airboe
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Re: SAS places order for 50 A320neo

Tue Apr 10, 2018 11:28 am

Kikko19 wrote:
Oddly SAS will have same main fleet op by same a/c as their Finnish neighbors, might be a sign of merging in the future?


No - Finnair and SAS have never been "good friends" - contrary to SAS and Lufthansa that used to have very good relationsship - albeit a little colder for the moment.
There have been merger talks between Lufthansa and SAS several times, - last some 4-5 years ago.
And their fleets also compliments each other nicely.



KR/Airboe
I'm learning to fly, but I ain't got wings
Coming down is the hardest thing

- Tom Petty & The Heartbreakers
 
fbwless
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Re: SAS places order for 50 A320neo

Tue Apr 10, 2018 11:43 am

While the SAS A320NEOs are new and fresh, the seats are IMO the worst ever. People don't seem to know that for intra Europe flights SAS has turned into a low cost carrier with lower standard than all competitors in Europe, at least I haven't found any other airline that is worse.

I will miss the 737NG at SAS even though they are getting a bit worn and noise level in the cabin is higher.
 
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downtown273
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Re: SAS places order for 50 A320neo

Tue Apr 10, 2018 11:59 am

I will miss their 737's too, but the A320NEO order makes sense.

Do we know when the 737's will be gone?
 
Kikko19
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Re: SAS places order for 50 A320neo

Tue Apr 10, 2018 12:07 pm

fbwless wrote:
While the SAS A320NEOs are new and fresh, the seats are IMO the worst ever. People don't seem to know that for intra Europe flights SAS has turned into a low cost carrier with lower standard than all competitors in Europe, at least I haven't found any other airline that is worse.

I will miss the 737NG at SAS even though they are getting a bit worn and noise level in the cabin is higher.


TP on the rear seats on a320 have slimline seats with no recline. MY 2 cents that all airline will go that way for lower paying passengers. race to the bottom (of comfort) ... continues.
 
Asiaflyer
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Re: SAS places order for 50 A320neo

Tue Apr 10, 2018 12:15 pm

OA940 wrote:
Are they A320neo FAMILY aircraft (as in conversion rights to the A321neo) or just A320neos?

As SK already today flies A321ceo, expect them to have A321neo in the future as well.
 
kanye
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Re: SAS places order for 50 A320neo

Tue Apr 10, 2018 12:25 pm

fbwless wrote:
While the SAS A320NEOs are new and fresh, the seats are IMO the worst ever. People don't seem to know that for intra Europe flights SAS has turned into a low cost carrier with lower standard than all competitors in Europe, at least I haven't found any other airline that is worse.

I will miss the 737NG at SAS even though they are getting a bit worn and noise level in the cabin is higher.



Well it's same standard Recaro seats as almost every airline are using. Besides that SAS has 174 seats and Easyjet for example186 which means two rows extra, that makes it a lot tighter for your legs.







I really like the wooden wall with logo in the front of their new Aircrafts.

https://thepointsguy.com/wp-content/upl ... G_0124.jpg
 
seansasLCY
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Re: SAS places order for 50 A320neo

Tue Apr 10, 2018 12:58 pm

fbwless wrote:
While the SAS A320NEOs are new and fresh, the seats are IMO the worst ever. People don't seem to know that for intra Europe flights SAS has turned into a low cost carrier with lower standard than all competitors in Europe, at least I haven't found any other airline that is worse.

I will miss the 737NG at SAS even though they are getting a bit worn and noise level in the cabin is higher.


I fly the SAS A320Neo every week and have to say other than BA E190s its one of the most comfortable short haul Y planes out there. Lots of legroom, charging port in each seat and recline. No complaints. Much better than the SAS 737s which were very tight.
 
Kikko19
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Re: SAS places order for 50 A320neo

Tue Apr 10, 2018 1:18 pm

seansasLCY wrote:
fbwless wrote:
While the SAS A320NEOs are new and fresh, the seats are IMO the worst ever. People don't seem to know that for intra Europe flights SAS has turned into a low cost carrier with lower standard than all competitors in Europe, at least I haven't found any other airline that is worse.

I will miss the 737NG at SAS even though they are getting a bit worn and noise level in the cabin is higher.


I fly the SAS A320Neo every week and have to say other than BA E190s its one of the most comfortable short haul Y planes out there. Lots of legroom, charging port in each seat and recline. No complaints. Much better than the SAS 737s which were very tight.


Didn't try still sas neo's but eventually i'll like more and more the cr9 / e190/195 as you will never seat in the middle seat.
 
Mortyman
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Re: SAS places order for 50 A320neo

Tue Apr 10, 2018 1:26 pm

SAS will have atleast 80 Airbus A320neo flying by 2023

https://investor.dn.no/?&_ga=2.38152611 ... ekte/27782
 
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TheRedBaron
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Re: SAS places order for 50 A320neo

Tue Apr 10, 2018 2:28 pm

With this new 50 aircraft order has the a320 surpassed the 737 in volume (all aircraft with delivered plus orders?)

TRB
The best seat in a Plane is the Jumpseat.
 
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chrisnh
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Re: SAS places order for 50 A320neo

Tue Apr 10, 2018 2:45 pm

Can this plane do the Boston run that the A330 is way too big for?
 
Kikko19
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Re: SAS places order for 50 A320neo

Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:00 pm

Asiaflyer wrote:
OA940 wrote:
Are they A320neo FAMILY aircraft (as in conversion rights to the A321neo) or just A320neos?

As SK already today flies A321ceo, expect them to have A321neo in the future as well.


according to internal source SK can convert any plane ordered to 321lr some time before delivery.
 
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william
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Re: SAS places order for 50 A320neo

Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:12 pm

So SAS is going all Airbus, right? All Airbus narrowbody?
 
juliuswong
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Re: SAS places order for 50 A320neo

Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:19 pm

A320neo family order, ending 31st March 2018:
A319neo- 30
A320neo- 4071
A321neo-1930

April 2018 to date orders:
Aegean Airlines- 20 A320neo and 10 A321neo
SAS- 35 A320neo + 15 A320neo through lessors
Vistara- 2 A320neo
- Life is a journey, travel it well -
 
juliuswong
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Re: SAS places order for 50 A320neo

Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:32 pm

william wrote:
So SAS is going all Airbus, right? All Airbus narrowbody?

(Ignoring their current ATR72, CRJ-900/1000 fleet.) Yes, apparently so after being Boeing customer since 1971 when their first Boeing aircraft, a B747-283B arrived at CPH.

Current Boeing fleet:
Boeing 737-600- 10
Boeing 737-700- 28
Boeing 737-800- 29
Total- 67

Strangely, the current A320 family fleet has only 40.
- Life is a journey, travel it well -
 
MIflyer12
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Re: SAS places order for 50 A320neo

Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:35 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Also a nice order for Airbus. Amazing that there are still slots available for 2019.


Maybe they're taking spots held by orders by lessors? From the SAS press release:

The first 15 new Airbus A320neos, with deliveries from the spring of 2019 through 2021, have been secured through declarations of intent with lessors. The remaining 35 Airbus A320neos are planned to be delivered directly by Airbus up to 2023.
 
VSMUT
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Re: SAS places order for 50 A320neo

Tue Apr 10, 2018 4:07 pm

juliuswong wrote:
Yes, apparently so after being Boeing customer since 1971 when their first Boeing aircraft, a B747-283B arrived at CPH.


There was a gap between the retirement of the 747 in 1986 and the introduction of the 767 in 1989.
 
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OA940
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Re: SAS places order for 50 A320neo

Tue Apr 10, 2018 4:15 pm

Kikko19 wrote:
Asiaflyer wrote:
OA940 wrote:
Are they A320neo FAMILY aircraft (as in conversion rights to the A321neo) or just A320neos?

As SK already today flies A321ceo, expect them to have A321neo in the future as well.


according to internal source SK can convert any plane ordered to 321lr some time before delivery.


I'd also expect them to. They could start flights from secondary cities to the US and ME.
A350/CSeries = bae
 
Mortyman
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Re: SAS places order for 50 A320neo

Tue Apr 10, 2018 4:46 pm

william wrote:
So SAS is going all Airbus, right? All Airbus narrowbody?



Apparently, but I think it will take time before their Boeing 737-800's to leave the fleet. Some of them are fairly new I think-
 
Bostrom
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Re: SAS places order for 50 A320neo

Tue Apr 10, 2018 5:24 pm

Mortyman wrote:
william wrote:
So SAS is going all Airbus, right? All Airbus narrowbody?



Apparently, but I think it will take time before their Boeing 737-800's to leave the fleet. Some of them are fairly new I think-


Some are, their youngest 737-800 was delivered from the factory in 2014. But there will be probably some second hand value in it. (Unless Norwegian goes bankrupt and floods the market with used 737-800s… )
 
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JetBuddy
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Re: SAS places order for 50 A320neo

Tue Apr 10, 2018 5:27 pm

Congratulations SAS and Airbus. This was expected, but great news.

GLANKG wrote:
Solid results for A320 program, but does this deal boost the chance of a SK CSeries deal or decrease it?


I don't think we'll see the C-Series in SAS colors unless CityJet or another partner starts operating them. SAS is heading towards a single fleet type for mainline.

OA940 wrote:
Are they A320neo FAMILY aircraft (as in conversion rights to the A321neo) or just A320neos?


I believe the first 15 orders from lessors will be A320neo, while the remaining 35 directly from Airbus can be swapped to A321neoLR or any other type of A320-series.

chrisnh wrote:
Can this plane do the Boston run that the A330 is way too big for?


I think it will be tight, but the A321LR can do it. And SAS has the option to swap to A321LR in the second part of the order (as far as I understand).

william wrote:
So SAS is going all Airbus, right? All Airbus narrowbody?


Yes, the mainline and long haul fleet will be all Airbus.
 
Someone83
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Re: SAS places order for 50 A320neo

Tue Apr 10, 2018 5:33 pm

Bostrom wrote:
Mortyman wrote:
william wrote:
So SAS is going all Airbus, right? All Airbus narrowbody?



Apparently, but I think it will take time before their Boeing 737-800's to leave the fleet. Some of them are fairly new I think-


Some are, their youngest 737-800 was delivered from the factory in 2014. But there will be probably some second hand value in it. (Unless Norwegian goes bankrupt and floods the market with used 737-800s… )


All those 737-800 delivered new on that order are leased from GECAS
 
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Narfish641
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Re: SAS places order for 50 A320neo

Tue Apr 10, 2018 5:35 pm

Big accomplishment for both SAS and Airbus!
Flew on:
SWA 737 738
 
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Slash787
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Re: SAS places order for 50 A320neo

Tue Apr 10, 2018 6:29 pm

Well I hope they order some A321neos and A330neos too.
 
Bostrom
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Re: SAS places order for 50 A320neo

Tue Apr 10, 2018 7:16 pm

JetBuddy wrote:

GLANKG wrote:
Solid results for A320 program, but does this deal boost the chance of a SK CSeries deal or decrease it?


I don't think we'll see the C-Series in SAS colors unless CityJet or another partner starts operating them. SAS is heading towards a single fleet type for mainline.


Agree, the chance is still very low. Probably not impossible, but very unlikely is my guess.
 
flyingbird
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Re: SAS places order for 50 A320neo

Tue Apr 10, 2018 7:25 pm

fbwless wrote:
While the SAS A320NEOs are new and fresh, the seats are IMO the worst ever. People don't seem to know that for intra Europe flights SAS has turned into a low cost carrier with lower standard than all competitors in Europe, at least I haven't found any other airline that is worse.

I will miss the 737NG at SAS even though they are getting a bit worn and noise level in the cabin is higher.


I think the 320neo seats are MUCH MUCH better than NG seats. I often fly between ARN and AGP and always avoid the NG as the seats are really a pain in the ass. SAS has 174 seats and you can’t find a low cost carrier with 174 seats. When WiFi has been installed the SAS A320neo will be one of the best economy products in Europe.
 
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reidar76
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Re: SAS places order for 50 A320neo

Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:48 pm

SAS has the most generous pitch on the A320neo in EUrope. British Airways and Lufthansa both have 180 seats, Easyjet 186 seats, while SAS has 174 seats.

The last SAS 737 will leave the fleet in a few years time. Will KLM be the only full service carrier still operating the 737 in EUrope? As far as I know, there isn't any 737 MAX orders from the EUropean full service carriers?
 
Bostrom
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Re: SAS places order for 50 A320neo

Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:19 pm

reidar76 wrote:
SAS has the most generous pitch on the A320neo in EUrope. British Airways and Lufthansa both have 180 seats, Easyjet 186 seats, while SAS has 174 seats.

The last SAS 737 will leave the fleet in a few years time. Will KLM be the only full service carrier still operating the 737 in EUrope? As far as I know, there isn't any 737 MAX orders from the EUropean full service carriers?


KLM, LOT and Icelandair it seems like at the moment.
 
noviorbis77
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Re: SAS places order for 50 A320neo

Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:51 pm

Bostrom wrote:
reidar76 wrote:
SAS has the most generous pitch on the A320neo in EUrope. British Airways and Lufthansa both have 180 seats, Easyjet 186 seats, while SAS has 174 seats.

The last SAS 737 will leave the fleet in a few years time. Will KLM be the only full service carrier still operating the 737 in EUrope? As far as I know, there isn't any 737 MAX orders from the EUropean full service carriers?


KLM, LOT and Icelandair it seems like at the moment.


And Ryanair of course.
 
Mortyman
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Re: SAS places order for 50 A320neo

Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:06 pm

Thus, SAS and Airbus merged together a "express delivery"

SAS wanted to buy one of the airline indistries's most popular aircraft from Airbus, but the waiting lists are long. To get the first aircraft delivered faster, the two companies merged a patchwork of several smaller orders.

In total, there are 50 Airbus A320neo, with options for another five aircraft and the option of delivering an unknown number of the A321-Long Range, a variant that has more seats and a long enough range to fly from Europe to the United States east coast.


The problem for SAS is that both of these types of aircraft are very popular and the waiting time could have been long if SAS only had the option to order all 50 Airbus aircraft directly from the factory.

In order to get the aircraft faster, SAS has in the same way as when the company commissioned Airbus long distance aircraft in 2013 taken some special grips.

In 2013, it was decided to spread the order over two different long-haul Aircrafts ( Airbus 350-900 and A330-300E ), not having to wait until 2018/2019 to get the first delivery, and also this time it has been decided to buy aircrafts from both Airbus and other players to get first new aircraft already from spring next year ..


Airbus's latest order statistics show that the airline currently has 30 A319neo orders, 4,071 orders for A320neo and 1,930 orders on the A321neo (including A321LR).

SAS had never managed to gotten a spot already in 2019 in that queue, but with Airbus they found a solution anyway:

"We have a solid order backlog and could not offer new aircrafts directly (on order, journ.anm.) At such short notice, but we have entered into an agreement with several leasing companies in cooperation with SAS," said Chris Buckley, Executive Vice President of commercial airline sales in Europe, Africa and Asia / Pacific Ocean in Airbus to E24.


This means that the first 15 aircraft SAS receives from their 50 orders comes from different leasing companies that already secured a seat in the queue, while the last 35 aircraft are "regular" orders that will be delivered directly from the Airbus factory. These will be are delivered from 2021 to 2023.


Just what SAS pays for the planes remains a secret between the two parties. But one reason SAS chose Airbus was because they managed to get such a big deal without the delivery time being too long. This confirms SAS boss Rickard Gustafson.


The so-called list price on all planes is around 43 billion NOK, but the actual price will be lower depending on the discounts given.



Considering the XL version

In the agreement text with Airbus, SAS has secured the opportunity to choose from the many variants of the A320 family to Airbus. Thus, the company can end up with different dimensions of different dimensions, although all are relatively similar and based on the same technical platform. Primarily speaking, the smaller A319 and up to the largest A321.

SAS already has eight A321 Aircraft (in its original version) in its fleet. This is an extended version of the A320 that accommodates more passengers. In the new Neo variants that SAS now orders, there is also a longer range A321LR variant, with about the same number of seats as the A321 aircraft SAS currently has.


Norwegian has already converted parts of its order on the Airbus A320 to receive 30 aircraft of A321LR from next year. These planes have a little longer range than Norwegians new Boeing 737-Max8, which can also reach parts of the United States from Europe.


- Have you decided if you also want A321LR or any A319 to have a fleet that can operate destinations with different passenger bases and different travel distances?

- In this agreement we have the flexibility to order the A321LR, and we will explore what opportunities exist for that aircraft in the long-distance market. It is important for us to have a fleet that ensures the future and the opportunity for growth, but the main focus now is the A320neo with a potential for the A321LR. And we will follow the demand and market closely, "says Gustafson.

- So you do not consider the smaller A319?

"If it's it that conditions and market conditions indicate then the A319 can be interesting and is something I would definitely like to consider," he adds.



Translation of excerpts of article from Norwegian to English:

https://e24.no/naeringsliv/sas/slik-mek ... g/24307108
 
Bostrom
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Re: SAS places order for 50 A320neo

Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:22 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
Bostrom wrote:
reidar76 wrote:
SAS has the most generous pitch on the A320neo in EUrope. British Airways and Lufthansa both have 180 seats, Easyjet 186 seats, while SAS has 174 seats.

The last SAS 737 will leave the fleet in a few years time. Will KLM be the only full service carrier still operating the 737 in EUrope? As far as I know, there isn't any 737 MAX orders from the EUropean full service carriers?


KLM, LOT and Icelandair it seems like at the moment.


And Ryanair of course.


I'm note sure I would call Ryanair a full service carrier…
 
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gatibosgru
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Re: SAS places order for 50 A320neo

Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:42 pm

A321LR is perfect fro CPH-BOS.
@DadCelo
 
Aliqiout
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Re: SAS places order for 50 A320neo

Tue Apr 10, 2018 11:07 pm

Narfish641 wrote:
Big accomplishment for both SAS and Airbus!

How is this an accomplishment for SAS?
 
Planeflyer
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Re: SAS places order for 50 A320neo

Tue Apr 10, 2018 11:48 pm

Good move, can they use 321lr to expand tatl routes. If they can this could be a really good move.

Anyone know how much commonality exists between the 321 now and lr models?

I guess there must be s thread that discusses all that so if someone could point me too it, much appreciated.
 
Mortyman
Posts: 5879
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2006 8:26 pm

Re: SAS places order for 50 A320neo

Tue Apr 10, 2018 11:51 pm

Aliqiout wrote:
Narfish641 wrote:
Big accomplishment for both SAS and Airbus!

How is this an accomplishment for SAS?


Considering that they were on the verge of going out of business a few years ago, it is.

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