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Wynnster8
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Did Pro Air have special flap configurations for their 737s?

Sat Apr 14, 2018 1:38 am

According to Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti ... =552305262 (2013 revision) They had Special flap configuration because of their short runways at (Coleman A. Young Airport (DET) Detroit City Airport.)
Favorite plane is 757-200 Favorite airport is Singapore Favorite route is SYD-JNB
 
joffie
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Re: Did Pro Air have special flap configurations for their 737s?

Sat Apr 14, 2018 5:32 am

It is called a Short Field Performance package, however didn't think available on the 737 classic series, only available on the NG. Maybe take a look at the below link hope it helps
https://www.pprune.org/tech-log/438394- ... 737-a.html
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: Did Pro Air have special flap configurations for their 737s?

Sat Apr 14, 2018 5:50 am

joffie wrote:
It is called a Short Field Performance package, however didn't think available on the 737 classic series, only available on the NG. Maybe take a look at the below link hope it helps
https://www.pprune.org/tech-log/438394- ... 737-a.html


The Short Field Package is an option on the NG. It’s baseline on the Max.

I agree with the other response. To my knowledge, it was not offered on the Classic. IIRC, Pro Air flew 737-400s.
 
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longhauler
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Re: Did Pro Air have special flap configurations for their 737s?

Sat Apr 14, 2018 2:26 pm

The Short Field Performance package was not offered on the Classics, as they were already short field performers!

I flew the 737 Classic out of 3000' gravel strips, safely ... but cruised at only M 0.74. That big thick wing on the -100 to -500 was a feat in engineering and an example of what Boeing does best ... wings.

Starting with the NG, Boeing identified a need for a faster cruising aircraft to compete with the Airbus narrow bodies. So, the NG and later models cruised economically at M 0.80 with a much slimmer wing, but you'd never try to operate out of a short strip. The Short Field Package addressed (to some extent) that need and was sold when desired.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
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leleko747
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Re: Did Pro Air have special flap configurations for their 737s?

Sat Apr 14, 2018 2:32 pm

SFP started with a request from Gol, to operate the B737-800 on short runways here in Brazil, specially Santos Dumont airport in Rio.
I wonder when people will understand:
Embraer 190 or simply E190, not ERJ-190. E-Jets are NOT ERJs!
Boeing 747-8, not Boeing 747-800. Same goes for 787.
Airbus A320, not Airbus 320.
Airbii does not exist.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Did Pro Air have special flap configurations for their 737s?

Sat Apr 14, 2018 2:34 pm

Longhauler,

Not to poke, but how wide were those short gravel strips? I’ve had arguments over real narrow runway ops with operators who only marginally understand the risks on narrow runways? Just curious, but being bizjets, I’ve heard all sorts of stories on operations.

GF
 
KarlB737
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Re: Did Pro Air have special flap configurations for their 737s?

Sat Apr 14, 2018 3:50 pm

Wynnster8 wrote:
short runways at (Coleman A. Young Airport (DET) Detroit City Airport.)


Just an aside note that Southwest flew their 737-200s and 300s out of DET.
 
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bluefltspecial
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Re: Did Pro Air have special flap configurations for their 737s?

Sat Apr 14, 2018 4:58 pm

KarlB737 wrote:
Wynnster8 wrote:
short runways at (Coleman A. Young Airport (DET) Detroit City Airport.)


Just an aside note that Southwest flew their 737-200s and 300s out of DET.


This was my first thought when reading this thread.

Coincidentally, I stumbled upon this article last night:

https://www.freep.com/story/money/business/john-gallagher/2018/04/13/detroit-city-airport-coleman-young-international-airport/494461002/

Curious to see what's next for that field.
Save a horse, ride a Fly-boy....
 
WA707atMSP
Posts: 1771
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Re: Did Pro Air have special flap configurations for their 737s?

Sun Apr 15, 2018 1:40 pm

bluefltspecial wrote:
KarlB737 wrote:
Wynnster8 wrote:
short runways at (Coleman A. Young Airport (DET) Detroit City Airport.)


Just an aside note that Southwest flew their 737-200s and 300s out of DET.


This was my first thought when reading this thread.

Coincidentally, I stumbled upon this article last night:

https://www.freep.com/story/money/business/john-gallagher/2018/04/13/detroit-city-airport-coleman-young-international-airport/494461002/

Curious to see what's next for that field.


Thanks for sharing the article about DET. It boggles my mind to read that the City of Detroit wants to re develop the land at DET because there's a shortage of developable land elsewhere in the city. There are so many areas filled with abandoned houses and businesses awaiting being torn down that a land shortage is NOT a problem in Detroit!

I hope they find a way to save DET!
 
klm617
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Re: Did Pro Air have special flap configurations for their 737s?

Sun Apr 15, 2018 1:45 pm

WA707atMSP wrote:
bluefltspecial wrote:
KarlB737 wrote:

Just an aside note that Southwest flew their 737-200s and 300s out of DET.


This was my first thought when reading this thread.

Coincidentally, I stumbled upon this article last night:

https://www.freep.com/story/money/business/john-gallagher/2018/04/13/detroit-city-airport-coleman-young-international-airport/494461002/

Curious to see what's next for that field.


Thanks for sharing the article about DET. It boggles my mind to read that the City of Detroit wants to re develop the land at DET because there's a shortage of developable land elsewhere in the city. There are so many areas filled with abandoned houses and businesses awaiting being torn down that a land shortage is NOT a problem in Detroit!

I hope they find a way to save DET!



I agree 100%.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
klm617
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Re: Did Pro Air have special flap configurations for their 737s?

Sun Apr 15, 2018 1:45 pm

WA707atMSP wrote:
bluefltspecial wrote:
KarlB737 wrote:

Just an aside note that Southwest flew their 737-200s and 300s out of DET.


This was my first thought when reading this thread.

Coincidentally, I stumbled upon this article last night:

https://www.freep.com/story/money/business/john-gallagher/2018/04/13/detroit-city-airport-coleman-young-international-airport/494461002/

Curious to see what's next for that field.


Thanks for sharing the article about DET. It boggles my mind to read that the City of Detroit wants to re develop the land at DET because there's a shortage of developable land elsewhere in the city. There are so many areas filled with abandoned houses and businesses awaiting being torn down that a land shortage is NOT a problem in Detroit!

I hope they find a way to save DET!



I agree 100%.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
klm617
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Re: Did Pro Air have special flap configurations for their 737s?

Sun Apr 15, 2018 1:48 pm

KarlB737 wrote:
Wynnster8 wrote:
short runways at (Coleman A. Young Airport (DET) Detroit City Airport.)


Just an aside note that Southwest flew their 737-200s and 300s out of DET.


The A319s of Allegiant are a perfect fit for the airport
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
nikeherc
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Re: Did Pro Air have special flap configurations for their 737s?

Sun Apr 15, 2018 4:18 pm

longhauler wrote:
The Short Field Performance package was not offered on the Classics, as they were already short field performers!

I flew the 737 Classic out of 3000' gravel strips, safely ... but cruised at only M 0.74. That big thick wing on the -100 to -500 was a feat in engineering and an example of what Boeing does best


The short field performance of the original 737 was the reason Piedmont purchased the 737 instead of the DC-9. The original dash 10 DC-9 had poor short field performance. Later models had much more sophisticated HLD.
DC6 to 777 and most things in between
 
KarlB737
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Re: Did Pro Air have special flap configurations for their 737s?

Sun Apr 15, 2018 4:24 pm

klm617 wrote:
The A319s of Allegiant are a perfect fit for the airport


Can anyone here in our forum tell us if an A319 can take off and land on a 5000 ft. runway. In the meantime until such needed improvements are made how about just some CRJ-200 flights from an existing airline to fly from DET to their hubs elsewhere and a few selected non-stops to cities of interest to local business executives like LGA, DCA & ORD.
 
sparky35805
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Re: Did Pro Air have special flap configurations for their 737s?

Sun Apr 15, 2018 4:52 pm

DC-9-14 worked fine out of our 5200'at Huntsville.
Pro Air had 737-400s .Not sure of their performance.
 
klm617
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Re: Did Pro Air have special flap configurations for their 737s?

Sun Apr 15, 2018 4:54 pm

KarlB737 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
The A319s of Allegiant are a perfect fit for the airport


Can anyone here in our forum tell us if an A319 can take off and land on a 5000 ft. runway. In the meantime until such needed improvements are made how about just some CRJ-200 flights from an existing airline to fly from DET to their hubs elsewhere and a few selected non-stops to cities of interest to local business executives like LGA, DCA & ORD.



Takeoff distances at MTOW (sea level altitude / ISA):

A318: 5,997 FT. / 1,828 M
A319: 7,100 FT. / 2,164 M
A320: 6,860 FT. / 2,090 M
A321: 8,400 FT. / 2,560 M
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
CanesFan
Posts: 151
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Re: Did Pro Air have special flap configurations for their 737s?

Sun Apr 15, 2018 5:07 pm

I imagine the A319 could operate out of DET, but with a weight penalty. Shorter flights to LGA, DCA, and ORD would probably be doable, but if the runway is wet or braking action is less than good, the subsequent weight penalties would likely wreak havoc on the schedule. Another consideration is the narrow runway, which will result in a lower max crosswind component for operations.
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: Did Pro Air have special flap configurations for their 737s?

Sun Apr 15, 2018 5:50 pm

nikeherc wrote:
longhauler wrote:
The Short Field Performance package was not offered on the Classics, as they were already short field performers!

I flew the 737 Classic out of 3000' gravel strips, safely ... but cruised at only M 0.74. That big thick wing on the -100 to -500 was a feat in engineering and an example of what Boeing does best


The short field performance of the original 737 was the reason Piedmont purchased the 737 instead of the DC-9. The original dash 10 DC-9 had poor short field performance. Later models had much more sophisticated HLD.


What is HLD? Not everyone on the thread knows every obscure acronym. High Lift something?
 
0newair0
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Re: Did Pro Air have special flap configurations for their 737s?

Sun Apr 15, 2018 6:01 pm

BoeingGuy wrote:
nikeherc wrote:
longhauler wrote:
The Short Field Performance package was not offered on the Classics, as they were already short field performers!

I flew the 737 Classic out of 3000' gravel strips, safely ... but cruised at only M 0.74. That big thick wing on the -100 to -500 was a feat in engineering and an example of what Boeing does best


The short field performance of the original 737 was the reason Piedmont purchased the 737 instead of the DC-9. The original dash 10 DC-9 had poor short field performance. Later models had much more sophisticated HLD.


What is HLD? Not everyone on the thread knows every obscure acronym. High Lift something?


High Lift Device. So close!
That's not how this works! That's not how any of this works!
 
wjcandee
Posts: 7855
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Re: Did Pro Air have special flap configurations for their 737s?

Sun Apr 15, 2018 6:01 pm

BoeingGuy wrote:
What is HLD? Not everyone on the thread knows every obscure acronym. High Lift something?



https://www.acronymfinder.com/High-Lift-Device-(aviation)-(HLD).html
 
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longhauler
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Re: Did Pro Air have special flap configurations for their 737s?

Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:37 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Longhauler,

Not to poke, but how wide were those short gravel strips? I’ve had arguments over real narrow runway ops with operators who only marginally understand the risks on narrow runways? Just curious, but being bizjets, I’ve heard all sorts of stories on operations.

GF

I'd have to pull out the old Flight Ops Manual, but off hand, I'd imagine we were always restrcted to no less than 100'. This was a regular airline operation with Canadian Airlines.

Most strips in the arctic though were much wider. As paving was not possible, the ice and gravel strips offered a lot more room.

"Arctic trained" pilots at Canadian required an extra sim session and two extra days in the classroom a year. I recall, the take-offs were a much higher flap setting than normal ... 15 degrees? 25 degrees? The V1 cuts in the simulator could be a handful with bleeds off max thrust and low (just above Vmca) speeds.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
alggag
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Re: Did Pro Air have special flap configurations for their 737s?

Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:52 pm

KarlB737 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
The A319s of Allegiant are a perfect fit for the airport


Can anyone here in our forum tell us if an A319 can take off and land on a 5000 ft. runway. In the meantime until such needed improvements are made how about just some CRJ-200 flights from an existing airline to fly from DET to their hubs elsewhere and a few selected non-stops to cities of interest to local business executives like LGA, DCA & ORD.


A319s can handle the 4341' runway at SDU. Of course that's sea level and no worries about snow or ice conditions.

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