Chasensfo
Posts: 94
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2013 2:07 am

Re: Sun Country (SY) strands hundreds of passengers in Mexico and tells them to find their own way home

Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:09 pm

Aliqiout wrote:
Chasensfo wrote:
What is your point here? UA is not known as the most customer friendly airline. This comparison is making SY look even worse. Look at all the things UA did that SY didn't. They actually provided alternative transportation. They even provided some hotels. It is unfortunate that some of the UA passengers had to make their way to FAT, but SY didn't offer transportation to an airport near MSP, they didn't offer transportation from a nearby Mexican airport, they didn't offer transportation 2 days or even 7 days latter, and they didn't offer anyone a hotel. There is a big difference between not doing as much as we would like and doing absolutely nothing.

The point is that many in this thread insist only an LCC would do this to customers, not a legacy. United is still a legacy. My point was re-booked or not, people still got screwed and left to fend for themselves for a long part of the journey. Google map the drive between MMH and FAT, then imagine doing it at night, in ice and snow, unfamiliar with the area. UA rebooked these people, yes...from FRESNO. QX was still flying LAX and SJC year round at that point, if they booked people to arrive home 7 days behind schedule, they probably could have gotten them out on Alaska/Horzion sooner, but they did not. Kept them on UA metal...via a drive to FAT. If you look up that drive, they might as well just drive to SFO! I don't think UA handled this better than AS.
 
jrkmsp
Topic Author
Posts: 46
Joined: Sun May 14, 2017 1:33 am

Re: Sun Country (SY) strands hundreds of passengers in Mexico and tells them to find their own way home

Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:55 pm

OP here. I just want to note that it seems like Sun Country has finally succumbed to the out-roar and committed to providing all of the Mazatlan and Cabo passengers with a complete reimbursement of their out-of-pocket transportation expenses, in addition to the refunds of the unflown portion of their Sun Country fares.

Wouldn't it have been a lot easier to do this, you know, Sunday, instead of enduring 48 hours of the worst PR coverage?

http://crankyflier.com/wp-content/uploa ... Letter.pdf
 
strfyr51
Posts: 3010
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:04 pm

Re: Sun Country (SY) strands hundreds of passengers in Mexico and tells them to find their own way home

Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:02 pm

jrkmsp wrote:
[url][/url]
FlyingElvii wrote:
And how, exactlt is this Sun Country's problem? Did a tour operator sell seats for flights that did not exist?


Sun Country had flights canceled for the snow, and chose not to find a way to accommodate its passengers. It’s not illegal, but it’s certainly distasteful.


Maybe? Passengers will remember this when they Book with Sun Country. But I doubt it!!
 
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usxguy
Posts: 1492
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 1:28 pm

Re: Sun Country (SY) strands hundreds of passengers in Mexico and tells them to find their own way home

Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:22 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
usxguy wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
If these were zero-value, consolidator (vacation package) tickets, it's unlikely any carrier with whom SY has an interline agreement would take them as Rule 120.20 since the settlement rate is face value of the coupon, and as those typically show zero, well, you get the idea. Best thing would have been to have SY arrange a charter or reach out to their counterparts at AS/DL/AA/UA/WN and arrange to buy blocks of seats for these customers.


the latest prorate from MITA was like 12.8% of the high Y fare for billing minimums when an SPA/prorate agreement isn't in place. So they *could* push over a bulk ticket as a reroute/invol to AS, but AS will bill them for the highest value.

(this was one of the reasons DL/AA got into a tiff a while back, if you remember... DL wanted a higher % than what MITA and others had agreed upon).


Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought those agreements only mattered when a valid fare was shown on the coupon that was pulled? I know DL wanted higher settlement rates than the 120.20 rate due to what they perceived as being a disproportionately higher number of reprotects coming from AA, but we've seen how that played out when ATL was shut down from a power outage.

Regardless, it doesn't change the fact that the end result of this debacle for SY will cost far more than anything they would have done to make things right by their customers.


Rule 240 vs SIPP 120.20 are really gone the wayside as most airlines are focusing on the MITA and also SPAs on reprotects. Your employer *loves* reprotect agreements, similar to how ZED fares are done, whereby its more of a set fare on the routing pair used - I just wish more airlines did it that way.

The days of BT versus face value in the ticket have changed with E-ticketing vs paper tickets, and the revenue management systems are now a lot more automated where a coupon with a BT had to receive special handling as the manual clearinghouse processes have been highly automated (thank god).

So right now, if there's no SPA on file, the airline revenue accounting system will bill Airline XY whatever 12.8% is of the high Y fare + taxes thru the proper BSP (or ACH for the US) unless you pushed the ticket over (not exchanged it), then Airline XY will only collect face value less 8% (if that system will read and process the ETR and coupons) *OR* bill for the prorated fare.

its a mind boggling back-end process....
xx
 
jchaase
Posts: 20
Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2010 5:21 pm

Re: Sun Country (SY) strands hundreds of passengers in Mexico and tells them to find their own way home

Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:00 pm

jrkmsp wrote:
OP here. I just want to note that it seems like Sun Country has finally succumbed to the out-roar and committed to providing all of the Mazatlan and Cabo passengers with a complete reimbursement of their out-of-pocket transportation expenses, in addition to the refunds of the unflown portion of their Sun Country fares.

Wouldn't it have been a lot easier to do this, you know, Sunday, instead of enduring 48 hours of the worst PR coverage?

http://crankyflier.com/wp-content/uploa ... Letter.pdf


Good. It’s a little more than the least they could do, which is what they had done up to this point.
 
wjcandee
Posts: 6976
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Re: Sun Country (SY) strands hundreds of passengers in Mexico and tells them to find their own way home

Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:53 pm

Now being covered on ABC World News Tonight. Teased as the next flight available is months from now. "How is this even possible?" Ouch.
 
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Pellegrine
Posts: 2120
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2007 10:19 am

Re: Sun Country (SY) strands hundreds of passengers in Mexico and tells them to find their own way home

Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:57 pm

What a crap airline.
oh boy, here we go!!!
 
FlyHappy
Posts: 698
Joined: Sat May 13, 2017 1:06 pm

Re: Sun Country (SY) strands hundreds of passengers in Mexico and tells them to find their own way home

Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:14 pm

Pellegrine wrote:
What a crap airline.


Not a crap airline. A good airline, with good people.
A crap new investment group owner/management team who made a horribly callous, calculated bottom line dollar judgment that blew up in their face.

They've since backpedaled with a bigger than minimum "mea culpa" . So they get some props to that; but there is still some damage. Time will heal, if they do the right thing, the next time. And the next time. And the next time.

Meanwhile, for loyal repeat clients like myself, we will wrestle with the question of whether to trust them the next time we go to book.
 
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airportugal310
Posts: 3353
Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2004 12:49 pm

Re: Sun Country (SY) strands hundreds of passengers in Mexico and tells them to find their own way home

Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:39 pm

stlgph wrote:
FlyHappy wrote:
stlgph wrote:

Not so much. We live in the world of Expedia now. Anyone in any market going from Point A to Point B in or out of Minneapolis will see a price they want slam right up in their faces during their next dump and jump on it.


Sure but that's not where much of SY's flying and profits come from.
It comes from Winter getaways Oct-April originating from MSP (I'm pretty sure you know this better than I). All that talk of Transavia seasonal planes from AMS, etc, etc. Profits further enhanced by serving as tour operator (forgive semantics) for many of these longer sector beach destinations.

So sure, they get a few pax in the summer months in LA, NYC, SEA who might choose to fly SY into MSP, but not a lot. Anecdotally, I know people in a fair number of cities served by SY, who have never, ever heard of SY...... despite the fact that fly alot, and occasionally come to see me!

I don't know how to find any statistics on their customer base, but it's hard to believe they've got squat for outside MN sales (newer services from Dallas, Portland notwithstanding).

Another factor - as you say, pax in a market who Expedia a low SY fare into MSP, if so cost conscious, is likely to be a VFR type, ya? What do you suppose they are likely to do if unfamiliar with SY? Answer: "Hey Uncle Joe, should I book this cheap Sun Country ticket?" What do you suppose Uncle Joe of Lakeville is likely to say?


The belief that Sun Country's passengers are all Minneapolis-based is 5 years ago.

And for the record, Los Angeles to Honolulu has booked so well, they've added extra sections.


Hope so. No one out here will tolerate shoddy service...just look at the demise of Allegiant in Hawaii for your answer.
I sell airplanes and airplane accessories
 
usflyer msp
Posts: 3046
Joined: Tue May 23, 2000 11:50 am

Re: Sun Country (SY) strands hundreds of passengers in Mexico and tells them to find their own way home

Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:39 pm

FlyHappy wrote:
Pellegrine wrote:
What a crap airline.


Not a crap airline. A good airline, with good people.
A crap new investment group owner/management team who made a horribly callous, calculated bottom line dollar judgment that blew up in their face.

They've since backpedaled with a bigger than minimum "mea culpa" . So they get some props to that; but there is still some damage. Time will heal, if they do the right thing, the next time. And the next time. And the next time.

Meanwhile, for loyal repeat clients like myself, we will wrestle with the question of whether to trust them the next time we go to book.


Just a reminder that SY is laying off all of their ground staff next week ;(
 
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Pellegrine
Posts: 2120
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2007 10:19 am

Re: Sun Country (SY) strands hundreds of passengers in Mexico and tells them to find their own way home

Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:48 pm

FlyHappy wrote:
Pellegrine wrote:
What a crap airline.


Not a crap airline. A good airline, with good people.
A crap new investment group owner/management team who made a horribly callous, calculated bottom line dollar judgment that blew up in their face.

They've since backpedaled with a bigger than minimum "mea culpa" . So they get some props to that; but there is still some damage. Time will heal, if they do the right thing, the next time. And the next time. And the next time.

Meanwhile, for loyal repeat clients like myself, we will wrestle with the question of whether to trust them the next time we go to book.


The business gets the blame in all situations such as this. Not one of those passengers is going to say "what crap management, but wonderful cabin crew who flew us down here!" I don't doubt wonderful people work for them - a cheap business, a crap business - it's par for the course all around the US.
oh boy, here we go!!!
 
FlyHappy
Posts: 698
Joined: Sat May 13, 2017 1:06 pm

Re: Sun Country (SY) strands hundreds of passengers in Mexico and tells them to find their own way home

Wed Apr 18, 2018 12:15 am

Pellegrine wrote:
FlyHappy wrote:
Pellegrine wrote:
What a crap airline.


Not a crap airline. A good airline, with good people.
A crap new investment group owner/management team who made a horribly callous, calculated bottom line dollar judgment that blew up in their face.

They've since backpedaled with a bigger than minimum "mea culpa" . So they get some props to that; but there is still some damage. Time will heal, if they do the right thing, the next time. And the next time. And the next time.

Meanwhile, for loyal repeat clients like myself, we will wrestle with the question of whether to trust them the next time we go to book.


The business gets the blame in all situations such as this. Not one of those passengers is going to say "what crap management, but wonderful cabin crew who flew us down here!" I don't doubt wonderful people work for them - a cheap business, a crap business - it's par for the course all around the US.


I am guessing you are not MN based.

You likely do not understand the nature and history of the local affection for SY. They are the little carrier with (mostly) local, private, family ownership since its inception. They are the little fleet that operated in the shadow of the local behemoth and survived; thru consolidations, thru 9/11, thru bankruptcy. They are the zany planes who took us to Laughlin to gamble, took us to Orlando to see Mickey, to Cozumel to snorkel, took our college sports teams to games.
Their FA's, pilots and ground staff are our neighbors - they've never been that well paid, but they always treated us right; there's not that many of them.

SY has never been "par for the course"; they've been "our airline". How many other cities can say that?
Until now.
 
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Pellegrine
Posts: 2120
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2007 10:19 am

Re: Sun Country (SY) strands hundreds of passengers in Mexico and tells them to find their own way home

Wed Apr 18, 2018 12:52 am

FlyHappy wrote:
Pellegrine wrote:
FlyHappy wrote:

Not a crap airline. A good airline, with good people.
A crap new investment group owner/management team who made a horribly callous, calculated bottom line dollar judgment that blew up in their face.

They've since backpedaled with a bigger than minimum "mea culpa" . So they get some props to that; but there is still some damage. Time will heal, if they do the right thing, the next time. And the next time. And the next time.

Meanwhile, for loyal repeat clients like myself, we will wrestle with the question of whether to trust them the next time we go to book.


The business gets the blame in all situations such as this. Not one of those passengers is going to say "what crap management, but wonderful cabin crew who flew us down here!" I don't doubt wonderful people work for them - a cheap business, a crap business - it's par for the course all around the US.


I am guessing you are not MN based.

You likely do not understand the nature and history of the local affection for SY. They are the little carrier with (mostly) local, private, family ownership since its inception. They are the little fleet that operated in the shadow of the local behemoth and survived; thru consolidations, thru 9/11, thru bankruptcy. They are the zany planes who took us to Laughlin to gamble, took us to Orlando to see Mickey, to Cozumel to snorkel, took our college sports teams to games.
Their FA's, pilots and ground staff are our neighbors - they've never been that well paid, but they always treated us right; there's not that many of them.

SY has never been "par for the course"; they've been "our airline". How many other cities can say that?
Until now.


Congratulations, I hope it works out well for you and other Minnesotans. Only problem I've had akin to this is when Indy Air went belly up midway into one of my formerly frequent IAD-SAV trips. US honored my return ticket though.

I genuinely feel sorry for those folks who don't have a couple thousand cash or credit limit just sitting around to use up though. That would suck.
oh boy, here we go!!!
 
tp1040
Posts: 359
Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2011 6:30 pm

Re: Sun Country (SY) strands hundreds of passengers in Mexico and tells them to find their own way home

Wed Apr 18, 2018 1:39 am

The ignorance of some management continues to amaze me. (not just carriers)
 
Andy33
Posts: 2203
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2009 9:30 am

Re: Sun Country (SY) strands hundreds of passengers in Mexico and tells them to find their own way home

Wed Apr 18, 2018 6:53 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
enilria wrote:
They either should have put the people on other airlines and paid the bill like a normal airline, or run a flight in the middle of the night like Delta often does and pick them up at 4am thereby not significantly disrupting the day time schedule.



This is the kind of experience that invites government mandates. Apart from standard duty of care (meals, phone calls, and a hotel room) I can outline three options from Wash DC:

1. The carrier sends one of its planes there to depart within 24 hours

2. The carrier can charter an aircraft to depart within 24 hours

3. The carrier can book passengers over to other scheduled carriers, paying up to full published (J, Y) fares, with departures within 24 hours

Carriers that fail to do that pay a significant fine, on the order of 3x the cost of walk-up fares. Carriers that fail twice to do that within one year get their license to fly yanked. They will find adequate staff and aircraft to rebook passengers under those conditions. You'll need to find your own way home is not an acceptable treatment of U.S. passengers.

Minnesota SY passengers, write to your Congressman.

This proposal is far too simplistic, and as a result airline lobbyists would find it all too easy to stall it in Congress, and even if by some miracle it passed, airline lawyers would find it all to easy to argue in court that in some circumstances it is impossible to comply with, and so get the law struck down.

First of all, when does the 24 hours start from? The original scheduled departure time, or the end of the severe weather event - and severe weather events can last for several days? Who would define for legal purposes when the severe weather event ended? We've had in the very recent past situations where Caribbean airports were rendered unusable for days or weeks by hurricane damage, and the actual hurricane affected the area for more than 24 hours!

Then, if you had resolved that issue, sending one of an airline's own fleet or a chartered plane within 24 hours might be possible for Mexico to Minneapolis, but what about say Morocco to Minneapolis, should such a service start in future? You get into issues about flight duration, places being in radically different time zones, FAA crew hours regulations, lack of planes with appropriate ETOPS certification and clearance to fly into the USA available at well under 24 hours notice, since all this would have to be organised at least 12 hours earlier to get the plane into position and the passengers notified.

And moving passengers to other scheduled carriers within 24 hours? Is this even physically possible given the high load factors most carriers have? What about airports that have only a handful of flights a day in total? And even if getting someone out of Mexico to somewhere in the USA is possible on other carriers, getting them to their actual final destination could be a lot harder, involve multiple connections, and still cause people to miss days at work etc.

Nice idea, I understand where you're coming from, needs a lot more work. There's a reason why the European regulations require airlines to look after passengers during severe weather events (which the US does not do) but set no time limits on how long the passengers have to wait for rerouting. The mounting accommodation costs incentivise the airlines to reroute as quickly as they can, but finding a definition of the maximum time they have to do this in was not possible because of the wide variety of different situations. Ryanair got away for several years with doing a Sun Country and telling people "here's your money back, you're on your own" before the regulators caught up with them, and now they do have to offer genuine reroutes.

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