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Buffalomatt1027
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Re: AirAsia X won't buy "too expensive" Airbus A350: Tony Fernandes

Tue Apr 17, 2018 4:46 am

george77300 wrote:
Source:
@TonyFernandes (CEO Air Asia) has just confirmed the airline has no plans to buy the Airbus #A350 XWB — despite having 10 of them on (firm) order.

• AirAsiaX also has 66 #A330neo aircraft on firm order

• Final decision on AirAsiaX’s future fleet is expected later this year



So by the looks of it A350 cancelled. A330neo order in its totality not certain. Possible B787 as previously suggested but unlikely?


This is why I sometimes dont believe Airbus announcements of airplane deals. The deals on the surface seem amazing and sexy as the headlines on yahoo.com and other places to read your news. Then deals they make always seem to disappear, dissolve, and break apart.
 
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zeke
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Re: AirAsia X won't buy "too expensive" Airbus A350: Tony Fernandes

Tue Apr 17, 2018 4:55 am

The A350XWB never made sense for air asia. The A330 can cover their entire route network.
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seahawk
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Re: AirAsia X won't buy "too expensive" Airbus A350: Tony Fernandes

Tue Apr 17, 2018 4:57 am

Competitively priced 787 with GE engines must be a nice incentive for AirAsia and should be the best decision for the airline.
 
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MrHMSH
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Re: AirAsia X won't buy "too expensive" Airbus A350: Tony Fernandes

Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:18 am

seahawk wrote:
Competitively priced 787 with GE engines must be a nice incentive for AirAsia and should be the best decision for the airline.


Even an all-A330 operator should make the decision to buy the 787. I wonder if there will ever be a time an Airbus craft makes more sense for an airline...
 
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zeke
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Re: AirAsia X won't buy "too expensive" Airbus A350: Tony Fernandes

Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:22 am

seahawk wrote:
Competitively priced 787 with GE engines must be a nice incentive for AirAsia and should be the best decision for the airline.


Why the 787-9 offers less seats than an A330 to a LCC, and the 787-10 is not competitive

All the reasons why the A350 make no sense to Air Asia also apply to the 787
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
calt03
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Re: AirAsia X won't buy "too expensive" Airbus A350: Tony Fernandes

Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:26 am

zeke wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Competitively priced 787 with GE engines must be a nice incentive for AirAsia and should be the best decision for the airline.


Why the 787-9 offers less seats than an A330 to a LCC, and the 787-10 is not competitive

All the reasons why the A350 make no sense to Air Asia also apply to the 787


The neo should be able to make it to London. I think the 787-talk is for leverage.
 
Peterwk146
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Re: Air Asia X cancels A350. Decision on fleet expected later this year.

Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:27 am

IslandRob wrote:
Peterwk146 wrote:
george77300 wrote:
Source:
@TonyFernandes (CEO Air Asia) has just confirmed the airline has no plans to buy the Airbus #A350 XWB — despite having 10 of them on (firm) order.

• AirAsiaX also has 66 #A330neo aircraft on firm order

• Final decision on AirAsiaX’s future fleet is expected later this year



So by the looks of it A350 cancelled. A330neo order in its totality not certain. Possible B787 as previously suggested but unlikely?


I'm sorry but what is the actual source for this statement? I've not seen it reported anywhere else.


There are several published reports, including: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-aira ... SKBN1HN102

-ir

Thanks.
 
juliuswong
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Re: Air Asia X cancels A350. Decision on fleet expected later this year.

Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:35 am

jbs2886 wrote:
juliuswong wrote:
AirAsia X team is currently now in the US. Can't say anything more than that. 787 souvenirs distributed in office recently. Does it constitutes to anything? I can't comment.


You can't because you don't know? Or you can't because you know and are not at liberty to say anything?

The latter.
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JustSomeDood
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Re: AirAsia X won't buy "too expensive" Airbus A350: Tony Fernandes

Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:38 am

zeke wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Competitively priced 787 with GE engines must be a nice incentive for AirAsia and should be the best decision for the airline.


Why the 787-9 offers less seats than an A330 to a LCC, and the 787-10 is not competitive

All the reasons why the A350 make no sense to Air Asia also apply to the 787


Let's look at the cabin lengths of the 789, A333, and 78J
789: 48.4m
A333: 50.35m
78J: 54.5m

Straight away, that's 4m more cabin length for the 78J to put seats in, AA currently has 377 seats in their A333 so even 6 more rows of Y would still be below the exit limit of 440 seats.

The 789 is 2m short of cabin length, but it also doesn't taper towards the end nearly as much as the A330 does, seatguru shows 8 rows of Y tapered at the rear of Air Asia's A330s. 787s only have 1-2 rows at most, so seating differences between the two should be very small, I'd guess around 10 seats at most. Scoot was able to fit 375 seats into a 789, while also having a faux-premium section up front like Air Asia's A330s.
 
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Goodbye
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Re: Air Asia X cancels A350. Decision on fleet expected later this year.

Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:46 am

seahawk wrote:
Another huge win for the Dreamliner coming?


Man I hope not, I am not a fan of travelling in the 787 one bit, and will actively avoid it if I can. My trips on the 787 have not been the most comfortable experience.
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seahawk
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Re: Air Asia X cancels A350. Decision on fleet expected later this year.

Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:52 am

Goodbye wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Another huge win for the Dreamliner coming?


Man I hope not, I am not a fan of travelling in the 787 one bit, and will actively avoid it if I can. My trips on the 787 have not been the most comfortable experience.


In that case though the 787 would be better, as thy would use both in 9 abreast.
 
airzona11
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Re: Air Asia X cancels A350. Decision on fleet expected later this year.

Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:55 am

A330 seems to be perfect for them. Not much value add for the A350. Maybe earlier on for the 787 but the A330 order appears to meet their needs. My take is that they might want to leverage further discounts as they will be the largest NEO operator

Goodbye wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Another huge win for the Dreamliner coming?


Man I hope not, I am not a fan of travelling in the 787 one bit, and will actively avoid it if I can. My trips on the 787 have not been the most comfortable experience.


Come on... better than a 9 abreast A330?
 
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zeke
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Re: AirAsia X won't buy "too expensive" Airbus A350: Tony Fernandes

Tue Apr 17, 2018 6:16 am

JustSomeDood wrote:

Let's look at the cabin lengths of the 789, A333, and 78J
789: 48.4m
A333: 50.35m
78J: 54.5m

Straight away, that's 4m more cabin length for the 78J to put seats in, AA currently has 377 seats in their A333 so even 6 more rows of Y would still be below the exit limit of 440 seats.

The 789 is 2m short of cabin length, but it also doesn't taper towards the end nearly as much as the A330 does, seatguru shows 8 rows of Y tapered at the rear of Air Asia's A330s. 787s only have 1-2 rows at most, so seating differences between the two should be very small, I'd guess around 10 seats at most. Scoot was able to fit 375 seats into a 789, while also having a faux-premium section up front like Air Asia's A330s.


None of that matters, for a LCC the 788-9 is limited to 420 seats, the the 787-10 and 330-900 440 seats. They are certified limits.

Cebu have 436 on the 330-330 and Air Asia will have over 400 in their additional A330-300s this year.

These are cheap VLAs, by Boeing’s definition of greater than 400 seats.
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juliuswong
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Re: Air Asia X cancels A350. Decision on fleet expected later this year.

Tue Apr 17, 2018 6:19 am

IslandRob wrote:
juliuswong wrote:
AirAsia X team is currently now in the US. Can't say anything more than that. 787 souvenirs distributed in office recently. Does it constitutes to anything? I can't comment.


Aw, come on, man! You've been dropping these tantalizing hints for weeks now. Spill already! -ir

I wish I can, but I don't have the privy now to spill more. But one thing for sure 66 A339neo order is here to stay.

Before everyone jumps into premature conclusion, worth noting the A350XWB order is not officially cancelled for now, as AirAsia Group is now negotiating to convert the order to other types. Your guess is as good as mine, more A339neo or deposit to A320neo/A321neo delivery. The A350XWB order was placed before A330neo family was made available, hence the 10 A350XWB order remains in place all these years. Buying A350XWB requires a huge financial and operational commitment for AirAsia Group which currently has a medicore debt gearing, the purchase will push them up to high debt gearing again. In addition AirAsia Group has always been yearning to return to London and Paris market, with the current cheap tickets dumped by numerous airlines, it made the return to EU no longer viable and sustainable in long run.

Being one of early adopters of A350XWB, their production slot worth some money, worth noting both American Airlines (order cancelled) and AirAsia X A350XWB delivery are on 2020. Or they may take delivery eventually, set up a leasing subsidiary and lease out.
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flee
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Re: Air Asia X cancels A350. Decision on fleet expected later this year.

Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:30 am

juliuswong wrote:
they may take delivery eventually, set up a leasing subsidiary and lease out.

Already established! Please see: http://airasiax.com/news.html/id/643671
 
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BlueSky1976
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Re: AirAsia X won't buy "too expensive" Airbus A350: Tony Fernandes

Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:49 am

seahawk wrote:
Competitively priced 787 with GE engines must be a nice incentive for AirAsia and should be the best decision for the airline.


Competitively priced A330-900 with RR engines remains absolutely as a better incentive for AirAsia and is still the best decision for the airline.
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JerseyFlyer
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Re: AirAsia X won't buy "too expensive" Airbus A350: Tony Fernandes

Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:04 am

So why is that Air Asia team in the US?

On holiday or placing a launch order for MoM?
 
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zeke
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Re: AirAsia X won't buy "too expensive" Airbus A350: Tony Fernandes

Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:05 am

About 40% of the A330 is built in the US, lots of big suppliers like galleys, bathrooms, and IFE based in WA.
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QXAS
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Re: AirAsia X won't buy "too expensive" Airbus A350: Tony Fernandes

Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:11 am

zeke wrote:
JustSomeDood wrote:

Let's look at the cabin lengths of the 789, A333, and 78J
789: 48.4m
A333: 50.35m
78J: 54.5m

Straight away, that's 4m more cabin length for the 78J to put seats in, AA currently has 377 seats in their A333 so even 6 more rows of Y would still be below the exit limit of 440 seats.

The 789 is 2m short of cabin length, but it also doesn't taper towards the end nearly as much as the A330 does, seatguru shows 8 rows of Y tapered at the rear of Air Asia's A330s. 787s only have 1-2 rows at most, so seating differences between the two should be very small, I'd guess around 10 seats at most. Scoot was able to fit 375 seats into a 789, while also having a faux-premium section up front like Air Asia's A330s.


None of that matters, for a LCC the 788-9 is limited to 420 seats, the the 787-10 and 330-900 440 seats. They are certified limits.

Cebu have 436 on the 330-330 and Air Asia will have over 400 in their additional A330-300s this year.

These are cheap VLAs, by Boeing’s definition of greater than 400 seats.

The 78J would allow a 440 seat layout that is much more friendly for pax. The only question is, how does it compete with the A339 on an Asian route such as KUL-HND. Obviously the aircraft wouldn’t be great for Europe which is where the 789 would be necessary.
Completely hypothetical, but would a ULCC derivative of the 78J be possible? Add overwing exits or exits in general such as what Boeing did with the 737-900ER? Would it be more competitive?
I think Air Asia Group has things down to a science and the A330 has proven itself perfect for the mission. 787 would require 2 variants due to range limitations on the 78J. The 251T 339 is a match made in heaven for Fernandes and co.
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oldannyboy
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Re: Air Asia X cancels A350. Decision on fleet expected later this year.

Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:36 am

LoganTheBogan wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Another huge win for the Dreamliner coming?


I kinda hope not. TBH I really get sick of the 787. Too many of them flying around and they're way too over hyped. I've been on them heaps of times and don't really notice a difference between them and other aircraft, or anything they've been advertising about them. I know they work well for airlines but I just like variation.


So agree with you man..... I really don't think it's anything special, and honestly it's not half as quiet/comfortable as the media was saying it would be.. Personally I still prefer the A330. My 2 :twocents:
 
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Re: AirAsia X won't buy "too expensive" Airbus A350: Tony Fernandes

Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:48 pm

Many decades ago 5 year planning was expected by most companies. I remember when the fallacy of this sort of planning was coming into corporate awareness. The whole aviation enterprise exemplifies the problem. Airlines, frame makers, engine makers have to plan ten or more years out. But reality changes and intrudes. Things including contracts have to give. The old sexist term, Its a man's game, is descriptive. I don't fault any of the players automatically. This aviation thing is hard. Why I am on this site as an observer. Air Asia, Boeing, Airbus, GE, RR all have to make it work.
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flee
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Re: AirAsia X won't buy "too expensive" Airbus A350: Tony Fernandes

Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:56 pm

From this Flightglobal report, it would appear that Airasia X will proceed with the A339 order but is now looking at what to do with its A350 order. A decision is needed this year because deliveries are scheduled to commence in 2019.

See: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... -x-447752/
 
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Jayafe
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Re: AirAsia X won't buy "too expensive" Airbus A350: Tony Fernandes

Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:00 pm

seahawk wrote:
Competitively priced 787 with GE engines must be a nice incentive for AirAsia and should be the best decision for the airline.


Are you suggesting that Boeing will continue to dump the price of the plane even out of the US where their suspicious activities are not protected by the flag? I seriously doubt it...
 
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OA940
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Re: AirAsia X won't buy "too expensive" Airbus A350: Tony Fernandes

Tue Apr 17, 2018 3:45 pm

A month ago he was pitching the 787. 3 months ago he was considering changing the entire 66-strong A330neo order to the A350 because it ''wasn't coming soon enough'' and there was a lot of demand. What's going on with Tony?
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astuteman
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Re: Air Asia X cancels A350. Decision on fleet expected later this year.

Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:56 pm

juliuswong wrote:
IslandRob wrote:
juliuswong wrote:
AirAsia X team is currently now in the US. Can't say anything more than that. 787 souvenirs distributed in office recently. Does it constitutes to anything? I can't comment.


Aw, come on, man! You've been dropping these tantalizing hints for weeks now. Spill already! -ir

I wish I can, but I don't have the privy now to spill more. But one thing for sure 66 A339neo order is here to stay.

Before everyone jumps into premature conclusion, worth noting the A350XWB order is not officially cancelled for now, as AirAsia Group is now negotiating to convert the order to other types. Your guess is as good as mine, more A339neo or deposit to A320neo/A321neo delivery. The A350XWB order was placed before A330neo family was made available, hence the 10 A350XWB order remains in place all these years. Buying A350XWB requires a huge financial and operational commitment for AirAsia Group which currently has a medicore debt gearing, the purchase will push them up to high debt gearing again. In addition AirAsia Group has always been yearning to return to London and Paris market, with the current cheap tickets dumped by numerous airlines, it made the return to EU no longer viable and sustainable in long run.

Being one of early adopters of A350XWB, their production slot worth some money, worth noting both American Airlines (order cancelled) and AirAsia X A350XWB delivery are on 2020. Or they may take delivery eventually, set up a leasing subsidiary and lease out.


It seems clear that, much as some seem keen to build the anti A330NEO excitement, the order will stay.

The question seems more to be about what aircraft might complement the A339's.
Given Boeing's ready pencil sharpening on the 787 these days, it's not hard to imagin Air Asia X shunting the A350XWB deposits elsewhere, and picking up some higher capacity 787-10's at "keen" prices to go with their A330's.

Rgds
 
strfyr51
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Re: Air Asia X cancels A350. Decision on fleet expected later this year.

Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:59 pm

workhorse wrote:
Given that their 350s were going to be 10 abreast I don't think any passenger will be crying over it.


Could it also be that Rolls Royce is having troubles with their Big turbofans with relaibility??
Especially since they can't get a GE powered A350?? It would seem to be a tactical move..
 
ap305
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Re: Air Asia X cancels A350. Decision on fleet expected later this year.

Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:41 pm

strfyr51 wrote:
workhorse wrote:
Given that their 350s were going to be 10 abreast I don't think any passenger will be crying over it.


Could it also be that Rolls Royce is having troubles with their Big turbofans with relaibility??
Especially since they can't get a GE powered A350?? It would seem to be a tactical move..


The trent xwb has had the most successful introduction of any new engine to date. 99.9 % dispatch reliability and not a single ifsd event. RR is having many problems but the xwb is not one of those.
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MartijnNL
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Re: Air Asia X cancels A350. Decision on fleet expected later this year.

Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:54 pm

EvanWSFO wrote:
Substitute any Airbus in your comment, and 1/2 the people will agree. There's nothing wrong with the 787 and it's sales seem to reflect that.

The dimmable windows are 'wrong' (when the crew darkens them while you want to look out the window when flying above Greenland for example) and the 3-3-3 seating is 'wrong' (if you have a window seat and have to inconvenience two people when getting up, compared to only one when flying economy in the A330).
 
EvanWSFO
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Re: Air Asia X cancels A350. Decision on fleet expected later this year.

Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:58 pm

MartijnNL wrote:
EvanWSFO wrote:
Substitute any Airbus in your comment, and 1/2 the people will agree. There's nothing wrong with the 787 and it's sales seem to reflect that.

The dimmable windows are 'wrong' (when the crew darkens them while you want to look out the window when flying above Greenland for example) and the 3-3-3 seating is 'wrong' (if you have a window seat and have to inconvenience two people when getting up, compared to only one when flying economy in the A330).


The 3x3x3 seating is not from Boeing. That is the airline flying the aircraft. I've flown a 787 and 330. Both were comfortable, but the 787 makes for a much more enjoyable flying experience for me.
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wingman
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Re: Air Asia X cancels A350. Decision on fleet expected later this year.

Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:11 pm

MartijnNL wrote:
The dimmable windows are 'wrong' (when the crew darkens them while you want to look out the window when flying above Greenland for example) and the 3-3-3 seating is 'wrong' (if you have a window seat and have to inconvenience two people when getting up, compared to only one when flying economy in the A330).


Doesn't Air Asia fly their 330s at 3-3-3? So they're wrong too. And Airbus is also wrong with the 350 and 380 (both are 3 seats at the window). And Boeing is wrong with the 777. Only JAL is right with the 787, but at least it's one right airline where 100% of 350 airlines are wrong. It's a lot of "wrongness" is all I'm saying. And we haven't even mentioned 320s or 737s!
 
L0VE2FLY
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Re: Air Asia X cancels A350. Decision on fleet expected later this year.

Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:33 pm

EvanWSFO wrote:
MartijnNL wrote:
EvanWSFO wrote:
Substitute any Airbus in your comment, and 1/2 the people will agree. There's nothing wrong with the 787 and it's sales seem to reflect that.

The dimmable windows are 'wrong' (when the crew darkens them while you want to look out the window when flying above Greenland for example) and the 3-3-3 seating is 'wrong' (if you have a window seat and have to inconvenience two people when getting up, compared to only one when flying economy in the A330).


The 3x3x3 seating is not from Boeing. That is the airline flying the aircraft. I've flown a 787 and 330. Both were comfortable, but the 787 makes for a much more enjoyable flying experience for me.


More enjoyable, huh?! The ONLY thing I enjoy about flying is looking at the beauty of planet Earth, the gimmicky dimmable windows deprive me and many other avgeeks of this pleasure, that's the reason why the 787 is my least favorite airliner of all time. I just don't understand how could you be an aviation enthusiast and not care about looking out the window?!
 
EvanWSFO
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Re: Air Asia X cancels A350. Decision on fleet expected later this year.

Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:56 pm

L0VE2FLY wrote:
EvanWSFO wrote:
MartijnNL wrote:
The dimmable windows are 'wrong' (when the crew darkens them while you want to look out the window when flying above Greenland for example) and the 3-3-3 seating is 'wrong' (if you have a window seat and have to inconvenience two people when getting up, compared to only one when flying economy in the A330).


The 3x3x3 seating is not from Boeing. That is the airline flying the aircraft. I've flown a 787 and 330. Both were comfortable, but the 787 makes for a much more enjoyable flying experience for me.


More enjoyable, huh?! The ONLY thing I enjoy about flying is looking at the beauty of planet Earth, the gimmicky dimmable windows deprive me and many other avgeeks of this pleasure, that's the reason why the 787 is my least favorite airliner of all time. I just don't understand how could you be an aviation enthusiast and not care about looking out the window?!


So it is not possible for me to be an enthusiast and not want to look out the window? I have been flying for business and pleasure for over 35 years. In the beginning, I always took a window seat when possible. Sometimes I spent my flight gazing out the window, sometimes not. As well, I choose <gasp> to read during flight as opposed to IFE (something else people have called me out on). Over time, and as travel became more of a hassle, I choose aisle seats now as it is takes a little less time to get off the plane. I've had a window seat on the 787, they were not dimmed by the crew.. If you don't like the 787, that is certainly your right. You don't need to understand why a window seat is no longer a big deal to me. I will continue to be an enthusiast, happily sitting in my aisle seat while you whine about the 787 windows.
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HI442ct
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Re: AirAsia X won't buy "too expensive" Airbus A350: Tony Fernandes

Wed Apr 18, 2018 12:29 am

BlueSky1976 wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Competitively priced 787 with GE engines must be a nice incentive for AirAsia and should be the best decision for the airline.


Competitively priced A330-900 with RR engines remains absolutely as a better incentive for AirAsia and is still the best decision for the airline.



With a signature like yours, I'm going to go ahead and just believe you, because you know it all

I'm no A fanboy, but the A330 seems to make some more sense for them to order, they have been operating them successfully for quite awhile.
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Ruscoe
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Re: AirAsia X won't buy "too expensive" Airbus A350: Tony Fernandes

Wed Apr 18, 2018 2:04 am

If Air Asia are looking for more payload range capability, and the 350 is too expensive, I would not rule out the 787, to add to existing 330,s.

Ruscoe
 
Planesmart
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Re: AirAsia X won't buy "too expensive" Airbus A350: Tony Fernandes

Wed Apr 18, 2018 4:59 am

lightsaber wrote:
If aircraft are too late as per the contract and miss performance? Of course an airline can cancel. They are being smart and rebidding before canceling.

The A330NEO was sold as low risk and with earlier delivery slots than the 787. I'm sure many vendor contact clauses were violated.

It is not good to miss promise. Contracts must be maintained by both parties. Generally when penalties start to exceed some value, either party may exit the contract.

You are aware there is no way the A330NEO will meet EIS ETOPS requirements?

We are also in an era where aircraft are oversold where a 20% cancelation rate is expected.

There is also no way A339 financing requirements are being met. Leasing companies are avoiding widebodies due to more rapid loss of asset value. Combine that with poor outlook for A330NEO resale, as is true of all poor selling aircraft. Look at the 717, WN had to subsidize DL's leases!

Thus I have trouble imagining how AirAsiaX wouldn't be able to renegotiate their contract or cancel it.

Commercial aircraft sale / purchase agreements generally include a 'get out of jail' clause valid until around 18 months (less for NB / can be more for WB) before delivery (linked to purchase of long lead and customer specific items), which coincides with the time when serious money (or guarantees) change hands for each aircraft (or tranche of aircraft).

Although the contract may be treated as unconditional, the magic clause, is '............subject to financial terms satisfactory to the customer'. Sometimes the customer changes their mind, and requests those providing funding, to withdraw the funding offer, or increase margins.

In those circumstances, A & B may provide their own funding, at the original offer rates. Or if there are truly underlying credit concerns (or aircraft margins are already fine, or there is another more profitable order pending), the OEM may decide to 'let the order lapse'.

The WB financing market is at two polar extremes at present - blue chip and the rest.

Add engine issues (which even the 777X has already), and financiers are proactively turning the taps off or down, encouraging customers to moderate WB acquisitions. And blue chip customers can see the soft demand, and want to re-negotiate existing orders.

Buybacks are very commonplace in the vehicle leasing and rental industries, from light cars to heavy vehicles. Airbus has more experience with buybacks, and not just with the two most well known model ranges. Will they be quite so keen this time, when the engines could affect resale interest and residuals? Will RR have to join the party? Do RR have the desire and capacity to fund ownership on this scale?

Boeing will have to join this party for the 777 (they already have for the 748). Expect Boeing Capital to own and fund many 777's from circa 2020.
 
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O530CarrisPT
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Re: AirAsia X won't buy "too expensive" Airbus A350: Tony Fernandes

Wed Apr 18, 2018 4:02 pm

BlueSky1976 wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Competitively priced 787 with GE engines must be a nice incentive for AirAsia and should be the best decision for the airline.


Competitively priced A330-900 with RR engines remains absolutely as a better incentive for AirAsia and is still the best decision for the airline.


Why not a competitively priced 787 with RR engines? It'd be a better incentive for both Boeing and Rolls-Royce (specially for RR, which could see here a point to regain confidence on the Trent 1000 engine), while still being a good decision for the airline.
Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity. - Martin Luther King Jr. (1929-1968)
 
L0VE2FLY
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Re: Air Asia X cancels A350. Decision on fleet expected later this year.

Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:54 pm

EvanWSFO wrote:
L0VE2FLY wrote:
EvanWSFO wrote:

The 3x3x3 seating is not from Boeing. That is the airline flying the aircraft. I've flown a 787 and 330. Both were comfortable, but the 787 makes for a much more enjoyable flying experience for me.


More enjoyable, huh?! The ONLY thing I enjoy about flying is looking at the beauty of planet Earth, the gimmicky dimmable windows deprive me and many other avgeeks of this pleasure, that's the reason why the 787 is my least favorite airliner of all time. I just don't understand how could you be an aviation enthusiast and not care about looking out the window?!


So it is not possible for me to be an enthusiast and not want to look out the window? I have been flying for business and pleasure for over 35 years. In the beginning, I always took a window seat when possible. Sometimes I spent my flight gazing out the window, sometimes not. As well, I choose <gasp> to read during flight as opposed to IFE (something else people have called me out on). Over time, and as travel became more of a hassle, I choose aisle seats now as it is takes a little less time to get off the plane. I've had a window seat on the 787, they were not dimmed by the crew.. If you don't like the 787, that is certainly your right. You don't need to understand why a window seat is no longer a big deal to me. I will continue to be an enthusiast, happily sitting in my aisle seat while you whine about the 787 windows.


You obviously fly much more often than I do, I don't really care for the IFE, reading etc... when flying, unless it's cloudy, or I'm on a red-eye transoceanic flight where there's not much to see. I've learned from people on this forum and in real life who flew the 787 that most airlines actually dim all the windows even on daytime flights. Enjoy your aisle seat on the 787, while I enjoy my window seat on the good old 767, 777, A330/350.
 
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O530CarrisPT
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Re: AirAsia X won't buy "too expensive" Airbus A350: Tony Fernandes

Thu Apr 19, 2018 9:20 pm

O530CarrisPT wrote:

Why not a competitively priced 787 with RR engines? It'd be a better incentive for both Boeing and Rolls-Royce (specially for RR, which could see here a point to regain confidence on the Trent 1000 engine), while still being a good decision for the airline.


Well, I think I made here a (small) mistake: I rethought the question and I now think that a Airbus A330-900neo with RR engines can be a better incentive for AirAsia in comparison to the Boeing 787 even if the 787 is equipped with RR engines (since it already has a big order for the A339, therefore AirAsia X can streamline resources in a single WB type). However, an A330-900neo order to replace the A330-300 DOES NOT preclude a order for the 787.

MartijnNL wrote:
EvanWSFO wrote:
Substitute any Airbus in your comment, and 1/2 the people will agree. There's nothing wrong with the 787 and it's sales seem to reflect that.

The dimmable windows are 'wrong' (when the crew darkens them while you want to look out the window when flying above Greenland for example) and the 3-3-3 seating is 'wrong' (if you have a window seat and have to inconvenience two people when getting up, compared to only one when flying economy in the A330).


Well, as far as I know AirAsia flies their Airbus A330s in a cramped 3-3-3 configuration (more cramped than the 787). So, one point in favour of the Boeing 787.
And I don't see nothing wrong whatsoever with dimmable windows (the 787 did not pioneer that technology, it was originally a option for Lockheed's L-1011 Tristar) and I hope the 777X can have those (although with the possibility of controlling directly from the window).
Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity. - Martin Luther King Jr. (1929-1968)
 
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Re: AirAsia X won't buy "too expensive" Airbus A350: Tony Fernandes

Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:11 pm

O530CarrisPT wrote:
And I don't see nothing wrong whatsoever with dimmable windows (...)

Maybe you are one of the many passengers who prefer looking at a screen instead of looking out the window. Last week a KLM flight attendant remarked to me how the number of passengers not interested in the beautiful views outside still amazes her. Most put down their blinds, even above great landscapes, and watch a movie or play a game on their mobile phone.

My problem with dimmable windows: I don't want somebody else to decide when I can look out the window.
 
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Jayafe
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Re: AirAsia X won't buy "too expensive" Airbus A350: Tony Fernandes

Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:22 pm

O530CarrisPT wrote:
And I don't see nothing wrong whatsoever with dimmable windows (the 787 did not pioneer that technology, it was originally a option for Lockheed's L-1011 Tristar)


You don't, but others do (me as well) As well pointed before, the lack of ability to decide what to do with your window (a majority of window passenger choose or pay for being seated there) is an erosion to in-flight comfort. And a pretty annoying one from my personal pov. There are several reasons why it has not been widely implemented over the years (and has been available many) and also why it's being faced out.

O530CarrisPT wrote:
...and I hope the 777X can have those (although with the possibility of controlling directly from the window).


Boeing has confirmed it won't.
 
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O530CarrisPT
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Re: AirAsia X won't buy "too expensive" Airbus A350: Tony Fernandes

Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:55 pm

Jayafe wrote:
You don't, but others do (me as well) As well pointed before, the lack of ability to decide what to do with your window (a majority of window passenger choose or pay for being seated there) is an erosion to in-flight comfort. And a pretty annoying one from my personal pov. There are several reasons why it has not been widely implemented over the years (and has been available many) and also why it's being faced out.


MartijnNL wrote:
Maybe you are one of the many passengers who prefer looking at a screen instead of looking out the window. Last week a KLM flight attendant remarked to me how the number of passengers not interested in the beautiful views outside still amazes her. Most put down their blinds, even above great landscapes, and watch a movie or play a game on their mobile phone.

My problem with dimmable windows: I don't want somebody else to decide when I can look out the window.


My bad. [The Price is Right losing horn cue]
As I forgot to say, the 787's dimmable windows (unlike those proposed for the L-1011 (which ended up deleted)) have that major flaw (you can't dim the window whenever you want). So, I admit that it can be bothersome for some passengers which paid for those window seats and want to see through them, therefore rendeing that feature (as much as I think that is somewhat cool) as somewhat useless.

Jayafe wrote:
Boeing has confirmed it won't.


Okay. Mea culpa once again...
In fact, I now began to see that dimmable windows, unlike window blinds, do not have much practical sense (due to the aforementioned reasons). So, I understand why Boeing excluded that feature from the 777X.
Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity. - Martin Luther King Jr. (1929-1968)
 
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monomojo
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Re: AirAsia X won't buy "too expensive" Airbus A350: Tony Fernandes

Fri Apr 20, 2018 12:33 am

Have flown on the 787 regularly for TPAC trips, always select window seats, always enjoy looking out the window, and don't mind giving up control of the window to the cabin crew through the middle part of the flight. I can still see out, even though it's completely dimmed, and the inflight experience is better for everybody because it allows the entire cabin to stay dark and relaxed without the constant shifting spotlights of people opening and closing the shades.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: AirAsia X won't buy "too expensive" Airbus A350: Tony Fernandes

Fri Apr 20, 2018 12:57 am

Planesmart wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
If aircraft are too late as per the contract and miss performance? Of course an airline can cancel. They are being smart and rebidding before canceling.

The A330NEO was sold as low risk and with earlier delivery slots than the 787. I'm sure many vendor contact clauses were violated.

It is not good to miss promise. Contracts must be maintained by both parties. Generally when penalties start to exceed some value, either party may exit the contract.

You are aware there is no way the A330NEO will meet EIS ETOPS requirements?

We are also in an era where aircraft are oversold where a 20% cancelation rate is expected.

There is also no way A339 financing requirements are being met. Leasing companies are avoiding widebodies due to more rapid loss of asset value. Combine that with poor outlook for A330NEO resale, as is true of all poor selling aircraft. Look at the 717, WN had to subsidize DL's leases!

Thus I have trouble imagining how AirAsiaX wouldn't be able to renegotiate their contract or cancel it.

Commercial aircraft sale / purchase agreements generally include a 'get out of jail' clause valid until around 18 months (less for NB / can be more for WB) before delivery (linked to purchase of long lead and customer specific items), which coincides with the time when serious money (or guarantees) change hands for each aircraft (or tranche of aircraft).

Although the contract may be treated as unconditional, the magic clause, is '............subject to financial terms satisfactory to the customer'. Sometimes the customer changes their mind, and requests those providing funding, to withdraw the funding offer, or increase margins.

In those circumstances, A & B may provide their own funding, at the original offer rates. Or if there are truly underlying credit concerns (or aircraft margins are already fine, or there is another more profitable order pending), the OEM may decide to 'let the order lapse'.

The WB financing market is at two polar extremes at present - blue chip and the rest.

Add engine issues (which even the 777X has already), and financiers are proactively turning the taps off or down, encouraging customers to moderate WB acquisitions. And blue chip customers can see the soft demand, and want to re-negotiate existing orders.

Buybacks are very commonplace in the vehicle leasing and rental industries, from light cars to heavy vehicles. Airbus has more experience with buybacks, and not just with the two most well known model ranges. Will they be quite so keen this time, when the engines could affect resale interest and residuals? Will RR have to join the party? Do RR have the desire and capacity to fund ownership on this scale?

Boeing will have to join this party for the 777 (they already have for the 748). Expect Boeing Capital to own and fund many 777's from circa 2020.

Thank you for the current state of the widebody market. Everything you said I've seen anecdotal evidence of. I cannot say specifics, but the general aligns.

I cannot imagine an airline with AirAsiaX's credit could get economical terms on the A330NEO.

However, given the option, I would expect Airbusto to finance with a hope of eventually selling the lease to a financial institution or an aircraft leasing company.

But how many aircraft? Boeing was stuck with 717 leases and that hurt their leasing arm as it consummed funds that could have been more profitably allocated. Airbus will have to make a similar decision.

I'm unusually facinated by the outcome of this order.

Lightsaber
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
HI442ct
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Re: AirAsia X won't buy "too expensive" Airbus A350: Tony Fernandes

Fri Apr 20, 2018 1:56 am

monomojo wrote:
Have flown on tuhe 787 regularly for TPAC trips, always select window seats, always enjoy looking out the window, and don't mind giving up control of the window to the cabin crew through the middle part of the flight. I can still see out, even though it's completely dimmed, and the inflight experience is better for everybody because it allows the entire cabin to stay dark and relaxed without the constant shifting spotlights of people opening and closing the shades.



Oh don't go bringing logic into this, were talking about people who will go out of their way to not fly a 787 because of the dimmable window feature?!?!, guess not everyone on here is an aviation "enthusiast", personally im happy to get from point "A" to point. "B" and fly, either it be in the cockpit or in the cabin.
Worked with
B707/727/737/747/757/767
DC8/DC10/MD11/MD80/
A300/L1011/A320/ATR42
 
workhorse
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Re: AirAsia X won't buy "too expensive" Airbus A350: Tony Fernandes

Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:30 am

HI442ct wrote:
Oh don't go bringing logic into this, were talking about people who will go out of their way to not fly a 787 because of the dimmable window feature?!?!, guess not everyone on here is an aviation "enthusiast", personally im happy to get from point "A" to point. "B" and fly, either it be in the cockpit or in the cabin.


Yes, and there's quite a bit of us. When booking a long haul flight, I always take into consideration the "787 risk" (the risk of getting a 787 on the route). The best situation is if the airline does not have 787s at all in its fleet. If it does, I look into the flight's history on FR24 to see if there are any occurrences of 787. If there are, I book elsewhere. Same for 10 abreast 777s.
 
Armodeen
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Re: AirAsia X won't buy "too expensive" Airbus A350: Tony Fernandes

Fri Apr 20, 2018 9:26 am

RJMAZ wrote:
Strato2 wrote:
What would the 787 offer that the A330neo would not? Nothing. Both would be configured at 9-abreast so there would be virtually no CASM advantage for the 787.

The 787 offers significantly better CASM at equal comfort levels. The 787 offers better comfort at equal CASM level.

The 9 abreast A330's run a decent 32" seat pitch. The 787-9 can easily run 30" seat pitch and have the same comfort levels thanks to its wider seats. That's quite a few extra seats while the 787-9 still burns less fuel.

I can definitely see AirAsia X in the future wanting to move away from the 9ab A330 and improve comfort slightly. Its currently using it to increase market share as they are in growth stage. A tight pitch 787 provides that slight upgrade.


I'm under the impression the 9ab A339 will better the 787 on CASM, with the opposite true of the (regular) 8ab A339.

Is that not the case?
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: AirAsia X won't buy "too expensive" Airbus A350: Tony Fernandes

Fri Apr 20, 2018 5:10 pm

monomojo wrote:
Have flown on the 787 regularly for TPAC trips, always select window seats, always enjoy looking out the window, and don't mind giving up control of the window to the cabin crew through the middle part of the flight. I can still see out, even though it's completely dimmed, and the inflight experience is better for everybody because it allows the entire cabin to stay dark and relaxed without the constant shifting spotlights of people opening and closing the shades.


My preference would be to have total control of the window myself. However, thta doesn't happen on any aircraft. I've had the FA make me close my shade in the middle of the day over beautiful country. Zero view. At least with a dimmable window, I can elect to dim it for the consideration of those around me while still seeing out. At the worst, it would be largely dimmed but still have some visibility. I just hate being stuck in a dark tube for hours in the middle of the day, and I hate being told I can't look out the window. Why even have windows then?

I get why some people dislike the dimmable windows. I also get why some people find them a nice compromise between full control and no control.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
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N14AZ
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Re: AirAsia X won't buy "too expensive" Airbus A350: Tony Fernandes

Fri Apr 20, 2018 5:33 pm

PlanesNTrains wrote:
I've had the FA make me close my shade in the middle of the day over beautiful country. Zero view. I just hate being stuck in a dark tube for hours in the middle of the day, and I hate being told I can't look out the window. Why even have windows then?

The same here. I usually try to take night flights for longhaul flights. But if I can’t avoid it and have to use a day flight, I work all the time. I hate it when all the people around me sleep like little babies and they ask me to close the shades while I work. :-(
 
bigjku
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Re: AirAsia X won't buy "too expensive" Airbus A350: Tony Fernandes

Fri Apr 20, 2018 6:37 pm

Armodeen wrote:
RJMAZ wrote:
Strato2 wrote:
What would the 787 offer that the A330neo would not? Nothing. Both would be configured at 9-abreast so there would be virtually no CASM advantage for the 787.

The 787 offers significantly better CASM at equal comfort levels. The 787 offers better comfort at equal CASM level.

The 9 abreast A330's run a decent 32" seat pitch. The 787-9 can easily run 30" seat pitch and have the same comfort levels thanks to its wider seats. That's quite a few extra seats while the 787-9 still burns less fuel.

I can definitely see AirAsia X in the future wanting to move away from the 9ab A330 and improve comfort slightly. Its currently using it to increase market share as they are in growth stage. A tight pitch 787 provides that slight upgrade.


I'm under the impression the 9ab A339 will better the 787 on CASM, with the opposite true of the (regular) 8ab A339.

Is that not the case?


I can’t find the article right now, google sucks on my phone, but when Delta picked the A330neo there was an analysis done that did a good comp of the cash operating cost. The basics of it were that the 787-9 was slightly more efficient on a 4,000nm or less route but gave that up because at the time it cost more. Found the article whole typing, here is the link.

https://airwaysmag.com/industry/analysi ... ilability/

They use pretty dense seating so Air Asia X would pickup to 377 for the A330neo and to similar numbers for 787. I suspect the answer would be about a wash.

It’s the 787-10 that should do better on CASM of the three. It should hold something like 50 more people than the A339neo. It will have higher cash operating cost but as a pure stretch they aren’t that much higher and CASM should come down from the 787-9 nicely.

Fuel prices narrow any advantage the 787 has but declining 787 prices hurt the A330neo advantage there from the analysis linked. Even at both being 9 wide 787 should have slightly lower CASM. Particularly if the cost to buy them is relatively similar.
 
trex8
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Re: AirAsia X won't buy "too expensive" Airbus A350: Tony Fernandes

Fri Apr 20, 2018 7:23 pm

Armodeen wrote:
RJMAZ wrote:
Strato2 wrote:
What would the 787 offer that the A330neo would not? Nothing. Both would be configured at 9-abreast so there would be virtually no CASM advantage for the 787.

The 787 offers significantly better CASM at equal comfort levels. The 787 offers better comfort at equal CASM level.

The 9 abreast A330's run a decent 32" seat pitch. The 787-9 can easily run 30" seat pitch and have the same comfort levels thanks to its wider seats. That's quite a few extra seats while the 787-9 still burns less fuel.

I can definitely see AirAsia X in the future wanting to move away from the 9ab A330 and improve comfort slightly. Its currently using it to increase market share as they are in growth stage. A tight pitch 787 provides that slight upgrade.


I'm under the impression the 9ab A339 will better the 787 on CASM, with the opposite true of the (regular) 8ab A339.

Is that not the case?

An 8AB A339 has similar seat capacity to a 9AB 789 but may ( we dont really know for sure at this point without data ) have slightly higher trip costs, you go to 9 on the A339 and it should be better on CASM than a 789.
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