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727LOVER
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McDonnell 220

Sat Apr 21, 2018 3:38 am

Ran across this interesting promotional film

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKcGDJQwTz0

Took a look on a.net...BOOM...4 pics....SWEET







Looks like only 1 was built.
Apparently, as of last year, it's still intact. Is it airworthy?
Wonder what it sounded like


Broader question.....before merging with Douglas, what kind of aircraft did McDonnell build?
"We must accept finite disappointment, but never lose infinite hope." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
alggag
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Re: McDonnell 220

Sat Apr 21, 2018 3:41 am

Looks like a mini B58.
 
Newark727
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Re: McDonnell 220

Sat Apr 21, 2018 3:59 am

727LOVER wrote:
Broader question.....before merging with Douglas, what kind of aircraft did McDonnell build?


Mainly fighters. F-101 for the Air Force, FH, F2H, and F3H for the Navy. The F-4 Phantom also started as their project before the merger.
 
workhorse
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Re: McDonnell 220

Sat Apr 21, 2018 6:27 am

Oh, it's a quad! Yuck!

Totally inefficient! Bad CASM! Bad, bad, bad airplane! Think about the poor shareholders! Scrap it immediately!

Signed, typical modern day a-netter.
 
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Dahlgardo
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Re: McDonnell 220

Sat Apr 21, 2018 7:43 am

It's been stored outside at El Paso ELP for years, and is easy to protograph if anyone wants to have a picture of it.

Interesting place El Paso, I visited in october 2015 and apart from the MD220, I saw the following airworthy types :
Convair 5800
SG301 Super Guppy
DC-9-14

plus loads of Falcon 20 freighters, 767-200, DC10 etc

that's quite a selection in this day and age.
leave your nines at home and bring your skills to the battle
 
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exFWAOONW
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Re: McDonnell 220

Sat Apr 21, 2018 12:50 pm

alggag wrote:
Looks like a mini B58.

That was my first thought as well.
Is just me, or is flying not as much fun anymore?
 
MR27122
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Re: McDonnell 220

Sat Apr 21, 2018 1:33 pm

Could be totally wrong....but I recall this being the Corporate Jet for some long gone Airline & it's Exec's pre deregulation. Eastern, Pan Am, or Continental...maybe even Braniff (Looks like a Harding Lawrence kinda "thing")....again, I could be very wrong.
 
fsxfan38
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Re: McDonnell 220

Sat Apr 21, 2018 1:51 pm

Strange to see four engines for such a little plane...Was this supposed to compete with the 727 and early generation 737s?
 
Aeroplasma
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Re: McDonnell 220

Sat Apr 21, 2018 2:10 pm

fsxfan38 wrote:
Strange to see four engines for such a little plane...Was this supposed to compete with the 727 and early generation 737s?

Nah, it was supposed to compete against the Lockheed Jetstar and lost.
 
LU9092
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Re: McDonnell 220

Sat Apr 21, 2018 2:14 pm

MR27122 wrote:
Could be totally wrong....but I recall this being the Corporate Jet for some long gone Airline & it's Exec's pre deregulation. Eastern, Pan Am, or Continental...maybe even Braniff (Looks like a Harding Lawrence kinda "thing")....again, I could be very wrong.


One of the photo captions indicates it was used for years as McDonnell's corporate jet.
 
arcticcruiser
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Re: McDonnell 220

Sat Apr 21, 2018 2:17 pm

727LOVER wrote:
Ran across this interesting promotional film

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKcGDJQwTz0

Took a look on a.net...BOOM...4 pics....SWEET







Looks like only 1 was built.
Apparently, as of last year, it's still intact. Is it airworthy?
Wonder what it sounded like


Broader question.....before merging with Douglas, what kind of aircraft did McDonnell build?


Thanks for sharing this. Interesting bits in the video, it had the "blowaway jet" feature like the DC-8s where part of the bleed air was blown forward and downwards through the intake lip to blow away fod. Switched off during take-off on the -8 though to maximize thrust. "This roomy cockpit takes the fatigue out of flying" :lol: I have a pretty roomy up to date "office". I still get fatigued.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: McDonnell 220

Sat Apr 21, 2018 2:24 pm

MR27122 wrote:
Could be totally wrong....but I recall this being the Corporate Jet for some long gone Airline & it's Exec's pre deregulation. Eastern, Pan Am, or Continental...maybe even Braniff (Looks like a Harding Lawrence kinda "thing")....again, I could be very wrong.


McDonnell attempted to market it as such, but no sales materialized and thus only this prototype remains constructed. It still exists.
 
Andre3K
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Re: McDonnell 220

Sat Apr 21, 2018 2:29 pm

Bet you it flew like a scalded cat though. I used this for my desktop background a few years back.
 
BravoOne
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Re: McDonnell 220

Sat Apr 21, 2018 2:37 pm

Pretty sure the 2nd prototype crashed killing all onboard. Don't think this aircraft ever went beyond the developmental stage and other than the first two built there were no "production:" aircraft built. As another poster mentioned it was a contender for what later became the Lockheed -6 JetStar. A very cool looking airplane that reminded me op a mini CV880.
 
BravoOne
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Re: McDonnell 220

Sat Apr 21, 2018 3:29 pm

Another tid bit regarding this airplane. It was once flown from an airport in the PHX local to ABQ where they attmepted to put GE CJ610's on it. I don't if they were successful or not, but the FAA was really stressed out at the unauthorized ferry flight and pulled th ticket on one or both pilots. One of them later on was directly involved in the O'Hare Comet event back around 1976?
 
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N14AZ
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Re: McDonnell 220

Sat Apr 21, 2018 4:14 pm

BravoOne wrote:
Another tid bit regarding this airplane. It was once flown from an airport in the PHX local to ABQ where they attmepted to put GE CJ610's on it. I don't if they were successful or not, but the FAA was really stressed out at the unauthorized ferry flight and pulled th ticket on one or both pilots. One of them later on was directly involved in the O'Hare Comet event back around 1976?

What is the „O'Hare Comet event“?
 
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American 767
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Re: McDonnell 220

Sat Apr 21, 2018 4:18 pm

fsxfan38 wrote:
Strange to see four engines for such a little plane...Was this supposed to compete with the 727 and early generation 737s?


The BAe 146 also had 4 engines.

Didn't the Lockheed Jetstar also have 4 engines?
Ben Soriano
 
727LOVER
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Re: McDonnell 220

Sat Apr 21, 2018 4:19 pm

BravoOne wrote:
Pretty sure the 2nd prototype crashed killing all onboard.


Is that the one in the vid ?
"We must accept finite disappointment, but never lose infinite hope." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
A320FlyGuy
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Re: McDonnell 220

Sat Apr 21, 2018 4:33 pm

Everything that I have ever read says that there was only 1 aircraft built - the prototype. I couldn't find any information about a second prototype crashing, let alone even being built. The massive failure of the 220 is also the reason why after the merger with Douglas, McDonnell was sour on the entire commercial market. A story that I recall from reading "The Sporty Game" was that James McDonnell actually went to the head of American or United and lectured them on how airlines were the source of so many issues for the manufacturers, how they should accept the aircraft as designed, etc. Long story short, he was very quickly shown the door.

Considering how cost concious the comapny became - partly out of need/partly out of sheer greed, you can see why the DC-10/MD-11 had such significant shortfalls as well as the lack of innovation in the narrowbody family of aircraft.
My other car is an A320-200
 
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longhauler
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Re: McDonnell 220

Sat Apr 21, 2018 4:59 pm

MR27122 wrote:
Could be totally wrong....but I recall this being the Corporate Jet for some long gone Airline & it's Exec's pre deregulation. Eastern, Pan Am, or Continental...maybe even Braniff (Looks like a Harding Lawrence kinda "thing")....again, I could be very wrong.

I think you might be thinking of the Lockheed Jetstar.

It flew for many airlines, in both a training as well as an executive transport function.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
Aptivaboy
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Re: McDonnell 220

Sat Apr 21, 2018 6:38 pm

What a beautiful airplane. Sadly, its languished for many years. There was an outfit trying to restore her to flight status not too long ago, but I don't recall the details. Wouldn't it have been cool to own one of those? Your own personal mini-B-58 Hustler?
 
BravoOne
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Re: McDonnell 220

Sat Apr 21, 2018 7:13 pm

I'll stick by my story regarding the fact that there were two of these prototypes< BUT I need to get back to my office desk to check some references just to be sure.

As for the OHare Comet story, google is your friend. I know the story well , as myself and two others flew it in there many years ago. At the time the 220 was sitting on the ramp in ABQ awaiting an engine swap out to the CJ610,
 
fsxfan38
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Re: McDonnell 220

Sun Apr 22, 2018 3:58 am

American 767 wrote:
fsxfan38 wrote:
Strange to see four engines for such a little plane...Was this supposed to compete with the 727 and early generation 737s?


The BAe 146 also had 4 engines.

Didn't the Lockheed Jetstar also have 4 engines?



True...quad engines still looks kind of strange on small aircraft like the Avro and the Jetstar.

Usually when I think of Quadjets, I think of the mighty 747 and A340.
 
Mortyman
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Re: McDonnell 220

Sun Apr 22, 2018 4:03 am

 
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N14AZ
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Re: McDonnell 220

Sun Apr 22, 2018 5:28 am

BravoOne wrote:
As for the OHare Comet story, google is your friend.

... and blocked here in China, where I am, currently.

BravoOne wrote:
I know the story well , as myself and two others flew it in there many years ago. At the time the 220 was sitting on the ramp in ABQ awaiting an engine swap out to the CJ610

But when using Bing I found immediately this a.net thread: viewtopic.php?t=170205

So I am aware about Dick Drost‘s Comet.



I was just wondering about the „event“ you mentioned but considering Drost ran a nudist colony maybe you don’t want to share more details ... don’t worry, if it is too „salacious“ it would be blocked here anyway ;-)

Sorry for going off-topic. This McDonnel 220 fascinates me as well. I think we had already several threads about her but it is always nice to see her again. Have a nice Sunday.
 
MR27122
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Re: McDonnell 220

Sun Apr 22, 2018 5:43 am

longhauler wrote:
MR27122 wrote:
Could be totally wrong....but I recall this being the Corporate Jet for some long gone Airline & it's Exec's pre deregulation. Eastern, Pan Am, or Continental...maybe even Braniff (Looks like a Harding Lawrence kinda "thing")....again, I could be very wrong.

I think you might be thinking of the Lockheed Jetstar.

It flew for many airlines, in both a training as well as an executive transport function.


U R 101% Correct!
 
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N14AZ
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Re: McDonnell 220

Sun Apr 22, 2018 5:44 am

American 767 wrote:
Didn't the Lockheed Jetstar also have 4 engines?

This was a rhethorical question, right? ;-)

This question would be great for the a.net-prequalification-test that I once suggested in the site related section of this forum. :‘)))))
Last edited by N14AZ on Sun Apr 22, 2018 5:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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N14AZ
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Re: McDonnell 220

Sun Apr 22, 2018 6:10 am

longhauler wrote:
MR27122 wrote:
Could be totally wrong....but I recall this being the Corporate Jet for some long gone Airline & it's Exec's pre deregulation. Eastern, Pan Am, or Continental...maybe even Braniff (Looks like a Harding Lawrence kinda "thing")....again, I could be very wrong.

I think you might be thinking of the Lockheed Jetstar.

It flew for many airlines, in both a training as well as an executive transport function.

... and last but not least for the USAF:

I took this picture from the database since this Jetstar has a slightly different livery as we all know.

ZAS Egypt still operated theirs in the 80ies:
 
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TurboJet707
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Re: McDonnell 220

Sun Apr 22, 2018 7:57 am

workhorse wrote:
Oh, it's a quad! Yuck!

Totally inefficient! Bad CASM! Bad, bad, bad airplane! Think about the poor shareholders! Scrap it immediately!

Signed, typical modern day a-netter.


:checkmark: :checkmark:

Sometimes it seems like there's more enthusiasm for efficiency than for aviation among a part of today's a-netters. I've joined not that long ago but I had been lurking here since 2004 and I've seen it changing. I sometimes miss the honest enthusiasm and respect for the history of aviation.

Back on topic: a fascinating and very sharp-looking little plane! With those four turbojets, it must have been an extremely noisy aircraft. The type of jet that you do not only hear when it takes of, but actually feel in your stomach as well, that you can still hear thundering away in the distance five minutes after it departed. Love it :cloudnine:
 
A320FlyGuy
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Re: McDonnell 220

Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:51 am

N14AZ wrote:
BravoOne wrote:
As for the OHare Comet story, google is your friend.

... and blocked here in China, where I am, currently.

BravoOne wrote:
I know the story well , as myself and two others flew it in there many years ago. At the time the 220 was sitting on the ramp in ABQ awaiting an engine swap out to the CJ610

But when using Bing I found immediately this a.net thread: viewtopic.php?t=170205

So I am aware about Dick Drost‘s Comet.



I was just wondering about the „event“ you mentioned but considering Drost ran a nudist colony maybe you don’t want to share more details ... don’t worry, if it is too „salacious“ it would be blocked here anyway ;-)

Sorry for going off-topic. This McDonnel 220 fascinates me as well. I think we had already several threads about her but it is always nice to see her again. Have a nice Sunday.


I'm really dating myself here, but I seem to recall many, many (can I say it) "moons" ago, that there was an episode of L.A. Law that was based on Dick Drost and his little legal issues in California.
My other car is an A320-200
 
BravoOne
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Re: McDonnell 220

Sun Apr 22, 2018 7:11 pm

Never actually met Drost as he was in a wheelchair and remained inside a black limo that had pulled up in front of the airplane. A woman got out of the limo and posed for cheese cake shots side with a photographer and then came up the air stairs and inside the airplane. She was Miss Nude USA or something like that. We all took a few photos and left shortly after that. I was not aware of Drost's reputation at the time so the whole event was meaningless after were paid for our work.
 
BravoOne
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Re: McDonnell 220

Sun Apr 22, 2018 7:21 pm

I'm withdrawing my comments regarding there being 2 M220 prototypes as I cannot find anything on the web to back that up. I have followed this airplane since the 70's, but I still do not I know where I came up with that idea. Puzzling to say the least

You may recall that the JetStar prototype was a 2 engine airplane designed by Kelly Johnson, the same guy responsible for the U2, SR71 along with many other Lockheed greats. The 2 engine JetStar remained in service for many years as a Lockheed corporate airplane used exclusively by Johnson.


http://www.rbogash.com/jetstar.html
 
jetstar
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Re: McDonnell 220

Sun Apr 22, 2018 10:07 pm

BravoOne wrote:
I'm withdrawing my comments regarding there being 2 M220 prototypes as I cannot find anything on the web to back that up. I have followed this airplane since the 70's, but I still do not I know where I came up with that idea. Puzzling to say the least

You may recall that the JetStar prototype was a 2 engine airplane designed by Kelly Johnson, the same guy responsible for the U2, SR71 along with many other Lockheed greats. The 2 engine JetStar remained in service for many years as a Lockheed corporate airplane used exclusively by Johnson.


http://www.rbogash.com/jetstar.html


Kelly Johnson’s 2 engine JetStar, one of the two 2 engine prototypes built is still around, it is located at the Museum of Aviation restoration center at Paine Field and their intention is to eventually restore this Jetstar to flight condition utilizing the original British engines. I have been to their restoration center and have seen them doing some work the airframe, the airplane is presently disassembled with the wings and the tail section located in another building

The second 2 engine prototype was converted to the 4 engine version and used for the initial certification tests. It was then donated to a aviation maintenance school in the Atlanta area and then purchased by the Air Force, painted up in Air Force colors and placed on display at Andrews Air Force base where it still is today.

Their was no 4 engine Jetstar prototype built, they were all built as customer airplanes, with the first 5 used in the certification program and then refurbished and sold. The first production JetStar serial number 5001 was operated for many years by the FAA with the registration numbr N1 and was one of the JetStars that was converted to the 731 fan engines which extended it service life.

I don't know if 5001was scrapped to saved for display.

JetStar
 
Clydenairways
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Re: McDonnell 220

Sun Apr 22, 2018 10:47 pm

MR27122 wrote:
Could be totally wrong....but I recall this being the Corporate Jet for some long gone Airline & it's Exec's pre deregulation. Eastern, Pan Am, or Continental...maybe even Braniff (Looks like a Harding Lawrence kinda "thing")....again, I could be very wrong.


Continental had the Sabreliner
https://www.airliners.net/photo/Continen ... 60/1057816

Eastern and TWA, the Jetstar
https://www.airliners.net/photo/Eastern- ... -8/1185708
https://www.airliners.net/photo/Trans-Wo ... -8/1647560
 
jetstar
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Re: McDonnell 220

Mon Apr 23, 2018 12:07 am

Clydenairways wrote:
MR27122 wrote:
Could be totally wrong....but I recall this being the Corporate Jet for some long gone Airline & it's Exec's pre deregulation. Eastern, Pan Am, or Continental...maybe even Braniff (Looks like a Harding Lawrence kinda "thing")....again, I could be very wrong.


Continental had the Sabreliner
https://www.airliners.net/photo/Continen ... 60/1057816

Eastern and TWA, the Jetstar
https://www.airliners.net/photo/Eastern- ... -8/1185708
https://www.airliners.net/photo/Trans-Wo ... -8/1647560


Continental's Sabreliner was used as a company airplane to fly executives around the country, it is a lot faster to fly between locations on a corporate jet than take their own airlines and have to go through hubs to get from plate to place.

Eastern had a plan to use a fleet of JetStars as a high end charter service, due to their union contract the pilots had to be Eastern line pilots who would bid the Jetstar, needless to say after operating a single JetStar for about a year Eastern realized it was totally unprofitable and sold the JetStar

TWA used 2 JetStars as flight trainers, One JetStar’s cockpit was set up for the Boeing 707 and the other for the Boeing 727. Lockheed did this special set up hoping they could sell more trainers to other airlines. Unfortunately for Lockheed, flight simulators were now coming into service and this killed off any future sales of airline configured JetStars. Also Lockheed when designing these airline cockpits made provisions in the design so they could be converted back to the standard JetStar cockpit. I heard that one was converted back to the original cockpit, but the other one remained with the airline cockpit, I believe it was the 707 version after TWA sold their JetStars.

JetStar
 
Max Q
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Re: McDonnell 220

Mon Apr 23, 2018 12:36 am

The Jetstar is an interesting aircraft with some unique design features



One of which is the stabilizer trim system, in a conventional set up in the horizontal stabilizer is attached to the rear fuselage and pivots nose up and down.



On the Jetstar the horizontal stabilizer is part of the vertical stab and is not adjustable(although the attached elevators are)




Instead the entire vertical tail ‘tilts’
forward or back, in turn changing the angle of the horizontal stabilizer



One of the Jetstar engineers subsequently went to work for Mooney light aircraft and incorporated the same feature in their single engine aircraft line



It is still being used to this day



If you look closely at photographs of the Jetstar you can see an exposed section of
highly polished aluminum at the base of the
vertical fin’s leading edge


This shows the range of movement utilized
for fore and aft trim
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
MR27122
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Re: McDonnell 220

Mon Apr 23, 2018 4:08 am

jetstar wrote:
Clydenairways wrote:
MR27122 wrote:
Could be totally wrong....but I recall this being the Corporate Jet for some long gone Airline & it's Exec's pre deregulation. Eastern, Pan Am, or Continental...maybe even Braniff (Looks like a Harding Lawrence kinda "thing")....again, I could be very wrong.


Continental had the Sabreliner
https://www.airliners.net/photo/Continen ... 60/1057816

Eastern and TWA, the Jetstar
https://www.airliners.net/photo/Eastern- ... -8/1185708
https://www.airliners.net/photo/Trans-Wo ... -8/1647560


Continental's Sabreliner was used as a company airplane to fly executives around the country, it is a lot faster to fly between locations on a corporate jet than take their own airlines and have to go through hubs to get from plate to place.

Eastern had a plan to use a fleet of JetStars as a high end charter service, due to their union contract the pilots had to be Eastern line pilots who would bid the Jetstar, needless to say after operating a single JetStar for about a year Eastern realized it was totally unprofitable and sold the JetStar

TWA used 2 JetStars as flight trainers, One JetStar’s cockpit was set up for the Boeing 707 and the other for the Boeing 727. Lockheed did this special set up hoping they could sell more trainers to other airlines. Unfortunately for Lockheed, flight simulators were now coming into service and this killed off any future sales of airline configured JetStars. Also Lockheed when designing these airline cockpits made provisions in the design so they could be converted back to the standard JetStar cockpit. I heard that one was converted back to the original cockpit, but the other one remained with the airline cockpit, I believe it was the 707 version after TWA sold their JetStars.

JetStar


@Clydenairways...Thanks for adding the photos to this thread.

@Jetstar...your "name" is apropos of the Jetstar topic! Thanks for the detailed & thorough explanation. Just out of curiosity...how did qualifications work w/ these pre sim aircraft? If a Jetstar had a 707/727 cockpit...would the training pilot need to be type rated in the Jetstar AND 707/727? I'm gonna "guess" here...the pilot in training would get "real" flying in the Jetstar, yet the flight deck layout would be 707/727 (flow training, etc)...however, the pilot in training would eventually need to do like 3 landing/takeoff's in an actual 707/727 until IOE/flying-the-line & then they'd beck qualified? Also....how the heck can Lockheed duplicate a Boeing 707/727 cockpit in a private-jet sized aircraft (I'm asking out of curiosity)??? They swap in the systems that Boeing has in the 707/727? But, what about fuel management, weight n' balance, radar, etc. Or....due to the 60's timeframe, was this really about getting exposure to Jet aircraft from props? Fascinating that these were used for training pre more realistic Sim's.
 
BravoOne
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Re: McDonnell 220

Mon Apr 23, 2018 9:39 am

jetstar wrote:
Clydenairways wrote:
MR27122 wrote:
Could be totally wrong....but I recall this being the Corporate Jet for some long gone Airline & it's Exec's pre deregulation. Eastern, Pan Am, or Continental...maybe even Braniff (Looks like a Harding Lawrence kinda "thing")....again, I could be very wrong.


Continental had the Sabreliner
https://www.airliners.net/photo/Continen ... 60/1057816

Eastern and TWA, the Jetstar
https://www.airliners.net/photo/Eastern- ... -8/1185708
https://www.airliners.net/photo/Trans-Wo ... -8/1647560


Continental's Sabreliner was used as a company airplane to fly executives around the country, it is a lot faster to fly between locations on a corporate jet than take their own airlines and have to go through hubs to get from plate to place.

Eastern had a plan to use a fleet of JetStars as a high end charter service, due to their union contract the pilots had to be Eastern line pilots who would bid the Jetstar, needless to say after operating a single JetStar for about a year Eastern realized it was totally unprofitable and sold the JetStar

TWA used 2 JetStars as flight trainers, One JetStar’s cockpit was set up for the Boeing 707 and the other for the Boeing 727. Lockheed did this special set up hoping they could sell more trainers to other airlines. Unfortunately for Lockheed, flight simulators were now coming into service and this killed off any future sales of airline configured JetStars. Also Lockheed when designing these airline cockpits made provisions in the design so they could be converted back to the standard JetStar cockpit. I heard that one was converted back to the original cockpit, but the other one remained with the airline cockpit, I believe it was the 707 version after TWA sold their JetStars.

JetStar


You may also recall that one of these 2 engine JetStars ran out of fuel northwest of the KVNY airport and landed in an open field with the pilots suffering some significant injuries. This was around the 1960 to 61 time period. Lockheed put the fuselage and wings on a rail car and shipped them back to the factory in GA for repair. Not sure which of the 2 airplanes was involved in this accident.

Also regarding the Continental Saberliner. The original CAL Saberliner crashed on takeoff from an airport in Colorado after having dropped Bob Six off at his ranch. I believe both pilots were killed in this accident. CAL also used their Saber 65 for pilot pre employment evaluations for a number of years.

Years later a CAL pilot was found guilty of rolling the 727 (No Pax onboard). His defense was that the Saber 65 pilots rolled the airplane on a number of occasions and both were certified under the same regs so he should not be punished. That did not work out well for him in the end and he was terminated.
 
OldAeroGuy
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Re: McDonnell 220

Mon Apr 23, 2018 2:33 pm

MR27122 wrote:
Could be totally wrong....but I recall this being the Corporate Jet for some long gone Airline & it's Exec's pre deregulation. Eastern, Pan Am, or Continental...maybe even Braniff (Looks like a Harding Lawrence kinda "thing")....again, I could be very wrong.


It was used as a McDonnell corporate jet.

Saw it once on a 1967 job interview trip to McDonnell in St Louis.

It was contemporary with the Lockheed Jetstar which was also a four engine airplane.
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
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N14AZ
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Re: McDonnell 220

Mon Apr 23, 2018 2:46 pm

Max Q wrote:
On the Jetstar the horizontal stabilizer is part of the vertical stab and is not adjustable(although the attached elevators are).

Instead the entire vertical tail ‘tilts’
forward or back, in turn changing the angle of the horizontal stabilizer.

Interesting, didn’t know this. That’s what I love about a.net. Even after so many years you can still learn something...
 
oldannyboy
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Re: McDonnell 220

Mon Apr 23, 2018 3:11 pm

727LOVER wrote:
Ran across this interesting promotional film

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKcGDJQwTz0


Oh wow... what a gem!!! :o
I just LOVE that positive, graceful, rosy attitude of the 'atomic era'!! :laughing: 'bless 'em!!! I sometimes wish I could fly back in time.... oh lord...
And that music. Priceless!!!

Thanks for posting!
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 6252
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: McDonnell 220

Mon Apr 23, 2018 3:19 pm

Bravo One,

CAL likely had a Sabre 40 or 60; the 65 came out in about 1980. The 65 had 731 engines and a Raisbeck mod’d wing which couldn’t stand ice. The earlier ones had JT-12 and slats.

GF
 
CATIIIevery5yrs
Posts: 168
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2016 4:40 am

Re: McDonnell 220

Mon Apr 23, 2018 5:35 pm

Must have landed in a crab with any decent crosswind. Doesn’t look like you’d be able to get the upwind wing down much before you make ground contact with an engine pod.
 
highflier92660
Posts: 724
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2004 2:16 am

Re: McDonnell 220

Mon Apr 23, 2018 5:51 pm

BravoOne wrote:
Never actually met Drost as he was in a wheelchair and remained inside a black limo that had pulled up in front of the airplane. A woman got out of the limo and posed for cheese cake shots side with a photographer and then came up the air stairs and inside the airplane. She was Miss Nude USA or something like that. We all took a few photos and left shortly after that. I was not aware of Drost's reputation at the time so the whole event was meaningless after were paid for our work.



Dick Drost (1936-2004) actually owned the first (and presumably only) fly-in nudist resort- I'm using the term liberally- in the heart of conservative and wholesome Roselawn, Indiana. According to one pilot it was a poorly maintained 2,300-foot east-west grass strip with trees on both ends. Although Drost was confined to a wheelchair with muscular dystrophy, he had illusions of nudist grandeur which is where the ex-Mexicana Comet 4C N999WA came-in. He envisioned flying hedonistic groups aboard the Comet to a lavish Caribbean nudist vacation mecca he wanted to start. From what credible information I can obtain online, it only made a single ferry flight from Albuquerque to Chicago's O'Hare where it took-up residence as a visual oddity and derelict eyesore. Because Drost thought of himself as a marketing expert he had someone paint crude Naked City lettering on the fuselage where an airline normally placed its logo. Passengers in airline jets taxiing past could clearly see this poor counterpart to Hugh Hefner's Big Bunny DC-9.

The story does not end well. Dick Drost was run out of town for (plagiarizing dialogue from the movie Animal House) " acts of perversion so profound and disgusting decorum prohibits mentioning them here." Drost went out to Hemet, California and attempted to continue with another rustic nudist gig called NCLA. He passed away in 2004 and was promptly cleared to descend to a much lower and warmer altitude.
 
BravoOne
Posts: 4094
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:27 pm

Re: McDonnell 220

Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:01 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Bravo One,

CAL likely had a Sabre 40 or 60; the 65 came out in about 1980. The 65 had 731 engines and a Raisbeck mod’d wing which couldn’t stand ice. The earlier ones had JT-12 and slats.

GF

It may have been something other than a 65 but it was not a 40, that I'm sure of. The only Sabreliner I was ever in belonged to Litton Industries over at VNY

Here is a brief report on the first CAL Sabreliner accident:
April 13, 1973, a Sabreliner NA-265-60 operated by Continental Airlines, N743R, crashed after takeoff at Montrose Airport in Montrose, Colorado following the uncommanded deployment of the port side thrust reverser. The two pilots, the only occupants of the aircraft, were killed and the aircraft was destroyed by impact ...
 
jetstar
Posts: 1414
Joined: Mon May 19, 2003 2:16 am

Re: McDonnell 220

Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:58 pm

Max Q wrote:
The Jetstar is an interesting aircraft with some unique design features



One of which is the stabilizer trim system, in a conventional set up in the horizontal stabilizer is attached to the rear fuselage and pivots nose up and down.



On the Jetstar the horizontal stabilizer is part of the vertical stab and is not adjustable(although the attached elevators are)




Instead the entire vertical tail ‘tilts’
forward or back, in turn changing the angle of the horizontal stabilizer



One of the Jetstar engineers subsequently went to work for Mooney light aircraft and incorporated the same feature in their single engine aircraft line



It is still being used to this day



If you look closely at photographs of the Jetstar you can see an exposed section of
highly polished aluminum at the base of the
vertical fin’s leading edge


This shows the range of movement utilized
for fore and aft trim



There are only 2 aircraft that use this type of pitch trim system, the single engine piston Mooney’s and the Lockheed JetStar.

But actually it was the other way around, Al Mooney after he left the company he helped found, Mooney Aircraft he then went to work for Kelly Johnson’s skunk works at Lockheed. He was tasked with engineering the design for the empennage section of the JetStar so he incorporated the same design he used for his Mooney airplanes. Since Kelly Johnson was the chief engineer of the JetStar I guess he liked the design because he approved it.

I cursed Al Mooney many times, probably each time I had to service the pitch trim servo unit, once every 200 hours to check the oil level, drain any water that would leak down the jack screws and grease the mechanism. The pitch trim unit had 2 motors, one main and a standby attached to a gear box with 2 large jack screws that moved the forward edge of the vertical stabilizer up or down. To access this pitch trim unit you had to crawl through an opening about 14 inches by 12 inches and place you body between all the control cables, making sure you do not put any weight on the 2” diameter fuel jettison line and then remove the cover plates to gain access to the pitch trim mechanism. I usually brought in my coffee with me because once I was in there I stayed until I finished the job so I did not have to go through all the contortions required to get comfortable again. It took about an hour and a half to do the servicing, changing a pitch trim motor took another hour or so.

JetStar
 
jetstar
Posts: 1414
Joined: Mon May 19, 2003 2:16 am

Re: McDonnell 220

Mon Apr 23, 2018 9:27 pm

MR27122 wrote:
jetstar wrote:
Clydenairways wrote:


Continental's Sabreliner was used as a company airplane to fly executives around the country, it is a lot faster to fly between locations on a corporate jet than take their own airlines and have to go through hubs to get from plate to place.

Eastern had a plan to use a fleet of JetStars as a high end charter service, due to their union contract the pilots had to be Eastern line pilots who would bid the Jetstar, needless to say after operating a single JetStar for about a year Eastern realized it was totally unprofitable and sold the JetStar

TWA used 2 JetStars as flight trainers, One JetStar’s cockpit was set up for the Boeing 707 and the other for the Boeing 727. Lockheed did this special set up hoping they could sell more trainers to other airlines. Unfortunately for Lockheed, flight simulators were now coming into service and this killed off any future sales of airline configured JetStars. Also Lockheed when designing these airline cockpits made provisions in the design so they could be converted back to the standard JetStar cockpit. I heard that one was converted back to the original cockpit, but the other one remained with the airline cockpit, I believe it was the 707 version after TWA sold their JetStars.

JetStar


@Clydenairways...Thanks for adding the photos to this thread.

@Jetstar...your "name" is apropos of the Jetstar topic! Thanks for the detailed & thorough explanation. Just out of curiosity...how did qualifications work w/ these pre sim aircraft? If a Jetstar had a 707/727 cockpit...would the training pilot need to be type rated in the Jetstar AND 707/727? I'm gonna "guess" here...the pilot in training would get "real" flying in the Jetstar, yet the flight deck layout would be 707/727 (flow training, etc)...however, the pilot in training would eventually need to do like 3 landing/takeoff's in an actual 707/727 until IOE/flying-the-line & then they'd beck qualified? Also....how the heck can Lockheed duplicate a Boeing 707/727 cockpit in a private-jet sized aircraft (I'm asking out of curiosity)??? They swap in the systems that Boeing has in the 707/727? But, what about fuel management, weight n' balance, radar, etc. Or....due to the 60's timeframe, was this really about getting exposure to Jet aircraft from props? Fascinating that these were used for training pre more realistic Sim's.


I would assume the training pilot was type rated for the JetStar, I would also assume the training pilots were type rated in either of the 707 or 727 as any training pilot would be. I believe these converted JetStars were fully certified because of Lockheed’s plans to sell them to other airlines as trainers.

The main purpose for the 707/727 trainers was to familiarize new pilots with the handling characteristics and the cockpit layouts of the 707/727. It was said by many pilots the JetStar handled more like a baby 707 than a 727, but the intention was to use the JetStar for early transition training it to the 707/727 to save money and free up the 707/727 airplanes that would normally be taken out of revenue service for flight training. Remember this was back in the late 1960’s to early 1970’s before advanced flight simulators, so training was done using line airplanes, also many pilots back then coming out of the military, especially cargo pilots had no jet time, only piston engine or turboprop engine time.

These JetStar trainers were never intended for advanced pilot training leading to type certification in the 707/727 airplanes

The JetStar parts manual on many pages had an asterisk next to a part number indicating except 5117/5119 which if I remember were the serial numbers for the TWA trainers.

JetStar
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 6252
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: McDonnell 220

Mon Apr 23, 2018 9:35 pm

CATIIIevery5yrs wrote:
Must have landed in a crab with any decent crosswind. Doesn’t look like you’d be able to get the upwind wing down much before you make ground contact with an engine pod.


Just decrab in the flare like most all pod-engined jets.

GF
 
F9Animal
Posts: 4435
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 7:13 am

Re: McDonnell 220

Tue Apr 24, 2018 1:13 am

I recall as a kid seeing the comet at ORD!!! Now my brain is really pushing here!!! Was there an old plane at IAD for the longest time? Was it used for fire training?

Has anyone been able to get a pic of the interior? Is it still at ELP?
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
Max Q
Posts: 8506
Joined: Wed May 09, 2001 12:40 pm

Re: McDonnell 220

Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:48 am

jetstar wrote:
Max Q wrote:
The Jetstar is an interesting aircraft with some unique design features



One of which is the stabilizer trim system, in a conventional set up in the horizontal stabilizer is attached to the rear fuselage and pivots nose up and down.



On the Jetstar the horizontal stabilizer is part of the vertical stab and is not adjustable(although the attached elevators are)




Instead the entire vertical tail ‘tilts’
forward or back, in turn changing the angle of the horizontal stabilizer



One of the Jetstar engineers subsequently went to work for Mooney light aircraft and incorporated the same feature in their single engine aircraft line



It is still being used to this day



If you look closely at photographs of the Jetstar you can see an exposed section of
highly polished aluminum at the base of the
vertical fin’s leading edge


This shows the range of movement utilized
for fore and aft trim



There are only 2 aircraft that use this type of pitch trim system, the single engine piston Mooney’s and the Lockheed JetStar.

But actually it was the other way around, Al Mooney after he left the company he helped found, Mooney Aircraft he then went to work for Kelly Johnson’s skunk works at Lockheed. He was tasked with engineering the design for the empennage section of the JetStar so he incorporated the same design he used for his Mooney airplanes. Since Kelly Johnson was the chief engineer of the JetStar I guess he liked the design because he approved it.

I cursed Al Mooney many times, probably each time I had to service the pitch trim servo unit, once every 200 hours to check the oil level, drain any water that would leak down the jack screws and grease the mechanism. The pitch trim unit had 2 motors, one main and a standby attached to a gear box with 2 large jack screws that moved the forward edge of the vertical stabilizer up or down. To access this pitch trim unit you had to crawl through an opening about 14 inches by 12 inches and place you body between all the control cables, making sure you do not put any weight on the 2” diameter fuel jettison line and then remove the cover plates to gain access to the pitch trim mechanism. I usually brought in my coffee with me because once I was in there I stayed until I finished the job so I did not have to go through all the contortions required to get comfortable again. It took about an hour and a half to do the servicing, changing a pitch trim motor took another hour or so.

JetStar




I stand corrected Jetstar and thanks for the interesting follow up



It’s a unique configuration, not really sure
if there’s any advantage or disadvantage



You do end up moving a larger, heavier piece of metal for the same result as a conventional horizontal stabilizer


An advantage might be that you have an overall simpler system


Fascinating aircraft though, do you know if there are any still flying ?
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg

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