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GSP psgr
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Is ATL About To Fall Relative To Other Megahubs?

Sat Apr 21, 2018 9:07 pm

If one looks at the master plans of the major US megahubs, it's noticeable how little additional gate capacity Atlanta is planning on building-a modest ~10 gate Concourse G for International Arrivals/Departures, which may not even be built. They'll also be doing a very modest expansion of the T gates, adding a few for the United and American operations. But that's it. Long term, Atlanta is probably going to have to eventually find a way to move Delta's TechOps somewhere else (probably the north side of the airport) in order to open up the necessary space for significant terminal construction and expansion.

Elsewhere:

CLT: About to open the new concourse A North in June; plans in works for ~12 gate additions to Concourses B and C, adding significant capacity for American Airlines.

DFW: Plans to build a full scale Terminal F to accommodate American Airlines expansion.

DEN: Announced plans to add 39 additional gates to accommodate growth by United and Southwest.

IAH: Plans in works for new Terminal B North for United as well as a new, significantly larger International Terminal D for growth.

ORD: Recently announced massive expansion plans including a large expansion of C and a new Concourse D, plus the new L stinger gates for American Eagle.

This would set the stage for Atlanta to lose ground to their peer competitors, and would possibly place Delta at a disadvantage. American is supposedly talking about bringing DFW up to the ~900 flights per day range, and while Houston's been hit hard by hurricane damage it will continue to grow. O'Hare's talking big things again (though Illinois's economy is...eeeh), and Charlotte continues to boom.

It might also portend a relative shift in capacity towards Detroit, Minneapolis, and Salt Lake City within the Delta network; Detroit in particular has a moderate amount of excess gate capacity and could probably handle a 10 million passenger increase without too much difficulty; the new terminal at SLC will also bring online a significant increase in capacity for Delta once it is finished.
 
jumbojet
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Re: Is ATL About To Fall Relative To Other Megahubs?

Sat Apr 21, 2018 9:25 pm

How much bigger do you want ATL to be? Currently, it has 207 gates and with the T expansion and the new 10 gate concourse G, it will boost the overall gate capacity by 7%. That will be more than twice as much as DEN. Looks like DFW currently has 165 gates.

Looking way ahead into the future, there is a plan for a concourse H at ATL but that's not until 2030.

According to Wiki, ATL has over 1,000 flights a day with most of those obviously belonging to Delta.
 
777Mech
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Re: Is ATL About To Fall Relative To Other Megahubs?

Sat Apr 21, 2018 9:44 pm

GSP psgr wrote:
If one looks at the master plans of the major US megahubs, it's noticeable how little additional gate capacity Atlanta is planning on building-a modest ~10 gate Concourse G for International Arrivals/Departures, which may not even be built. They'll also be doing a very modest expansion of the T gates, adding a few for the United and American operations. But that's it. Long term, Atlanta is probably going to have to eventually find a way to move Delta's TechOps somewhere else (probably the north side of the airport) in order to open up the necessary space for significant terminal construction and expansion.

Elsewhere:

CLT: About to open the new concourse A North in June; plans in works for ~12 gate additions to Concourses B and C, adding significant capacity for American Airlines.

DFW: Plans to build a full scale Terminal F to accommodate American Airlines expansion.

DEN: Announced plans to add 39 additional gates to accommodate growth by United and Southwest.

IAH: Plans in works for new Terminal B North for United as well as a new, significantly larger International Terminal D for growth.

ORD: Recently announced massive expansion plans including a large expansion of C and a new Concourse D, plus the new L stinger gates for American Eagle.

This would set the stage for Atlanta to lose ground to their peer competitors, and would possibly place Delta at a disadvantage. American is supposedly talking about bringing DFW up to the ~900 flights per day range, and while Houston's been hit hard by hurricane damage it will continue to grow. O'Hare's talking big things again (though Illinois's economy is...eeeh), and Charlotte continues to boom.

It might also portend a relative shift in capacity towards Detroit, Minneapolis, and Salt Lake City within the Delta network; Detroit in particular has a moderate amount of excess gate capacity and could probably handle a 10 million passenger increase without too much difficulty; the new terminal at SLC will also bring online a significant increase in capacity for Delta once it is finished.


Did you not look at the master plans for ATL at all? Techops isn't going anywhere. What will move, if they build out G H and I concourse, is the cargo and gate gourmet facilities.

A 6th runway will be built in between 10/28 and 9R/27L if needed.

ATL is not going anywhere, much to the disappointment of the DTW crowd.
 
Samrnpage
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Re: Is ATL About To Fall Relative To Other Megahubs?

Sat Apr 21, 2018 9:46 pm

Nah - its already so big. Considering there is a 37million PAX difference (Effectively entire Newark airport in difference) between DTW and Atlanta, Atlanta wont "fall".
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Is ATL About To Fall Relative To Other Megahubs?

Sat Apr 21, 2018 10:14 pm

ATL's growth in the recent past, and short-to-medium term is coming from increased seats per departure. DL can't increase flights/frequency at peak times in most markets, but will try to upgauge to ~180 seat aircraft as much as possible. Thus that means more 739/A321/757 flights and fewer RJ, 319/717 sized aircraft. DL doesn't really want to increase the number of departures, and the number of departures at ATL is still below the peak back at the height of the RJ-craze.
 
LAXLHR
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Re: Is ATL About To Fall Relative To Other Megahubs?

Sat Apr 21, 2018 10:25 pm

ATL "fall"??? are you joking?

DFW had a brilliant master plan from day one. One cannot help but be in awe to the brilliance of that airport design.

DEN is a very good design (I used it from time to time) I dislike the energy of the airport, but it works well as a transportation hub.
BA IB ET JM EA GK PA VS AA SN HP CO W7 WN NW DL UA AC US LH LX OS JL QF QR WY MH CX U2 EK 9W UK TP VY VN LO OK OZ UL SQ LA

707 727 L10 732-NG 741 742 743 744 752 753 762 763 772 773 787 DC8 DC9 DC10 M80 M11 100 AB3 310 318 319 320 321 330s 340s 350 380
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: Is ATL About To Fall Relative To Other Megahubs?

Sat Apr 21, 2018 10:39 pm

You are looking in the wrong places...

Atlanta will be knocked off the top spot by a city in Asia.

That’s the future...
 
kavok
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Re: Is ATL About To Fall Relative To Other Megahubs?

Sat Apr 21, 2018 10:54 pm

ATL is the largest airport in the world currently. It may be passed at some point by an airport in Asia, but if we are talking about other North American airports as the OPs examples suggest, well let’s just say many of those other North American airports could grow significantly and ATL would still be larger just by maintaining its existing size.
 
777Mech
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Re: Is ATL About To Fall Relative Tmio Other Megahubs?

Sat Apr 21, 2018 11:00 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
You are looking in the wrong places...

Atlanta will be knocked off the top spot by a city in Asia.

That’s the future...


If you think it's going to be PEK you have another thing coming.

Daxing will be opening next year.
 
ncflyer
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Re: Is ATL About To Fall Relative To Other Megahubs?

Sat Apr 21, 2018 11:01 pm

Right on JFK, shows how myopic Americans can be it took about 6 or 7 posts until someone brought it up. It’s “when not if” Atlanta is overtaken by an airport outside of US. The only thing saving ATL right now is that Beijing is opening a second international airport (I’m not counting NAY), and not closing PEK.

My experience is very limited but from what I can tell these Asian airports are designed to handle people a lot more comfortably than airports in the US. I’m not on top of DXB or the new IST but I’m sure those airports will be in the conversation too.
 
DiamondFlyer
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Re: Is ATL About To Fall Relative To Other Megahubs?

Sat Apr 21, 2018 11:46 pm

Eventually, the north end of D will be reorganized, as more and more 50 seaters leave the fleet. They'll make the parking spaces more able to handle larger aircraft, and that will reduce the number of parking spots, especially at the very end D32 and up.
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Jayafe
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Re: Is ATL About To Fall Relative To Other Megahubs?

Sun Apr 22, 2018 12:03 am

ncflyer wrote:
...My experience is very limited but from what I can tell these Asian airports are designed to handle people a lot more comfortably than airports in the US...


It's not difficult to do so.
 
portcolumbus
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Re: Is ATL About To Fall Relative To Other Megahubs?

Sun Apr 22, 2018 12:40 am

Samrnpage wrote:
Nah - its already so big. Considering there is a 37million PAX difference (Effectively entire Newark airport in difference) between DTW and Atlanta, Atlanta wont "fall".



There's a lot more than a 37M difference between ATL and DTW.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Is ATL About To Fall Relative To Other Megahubs?

Sun Apr 22, 2018 1:00 am

GSP psgr wrote:
CLT: About to open the new concourse A North in June; plans in works for ~12 gate additions to Concourses B and C, adding significant capacity for American Airlines.

DFW: Plans to build a full scale Terminal F to accommodate American Airlines expansion.

DEN: Announced plans to add 39 additional gates to accommodate growth by United and Southwest.

IAH: Plans in works for new Terminal B North for United as well as a new, significantly larger International Terminal D for growth.

ORD: Recently announced massive expansion plans including a large expansion of C and a new Concourse D, plus the new L stinger gates for American Eagle.


Get back to us when those airports meet (in the present tense) ATL's gate count, have six runways, and have upgauged to Delta's average at ATL.
 
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tlecam
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Re: Is ATL About To Fall Relative To Other Megahubs?

Sun Apr 22, 2018 1:13 am

ATL also is in the east, which is much more densely populated than the rest of the country. There are macro-economic and demographic influences that will constrain DEN, IAH and DFW at some point.

CLT is also in the east and could benefit from that. It will have to compete with ATL for the traffic, however.
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777Mech
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Re: Is ATL About To Fall Relative To Other Megahubs?

Sun Apr 22, 2018 1:59 am

ncflyer wrote:
Right on JFK, shows how myopic Americans can be it took about 6 or 7 posts until someone brought it up. It’s “when not if” Atlanta is overtaken by an airport outside of US. The only thing saving ATL right now is that Beijing is opening a second international airport (I’m not counting NAY), and not closing PEK.

My experience is very limited but from what I can tell these Asian airports are designed to handle people a lot more comfortably than airports in the US. I’m not on top of DXB or the new IST but I’m sure those airports will be in the conversation too.


Why is Asia even in the discussion now? Please actually read what the OP stated. We are talking about "US megahubs", not whose going to be the busiest.

Back on topic, here is a PDF of the latest master plan.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... 2zUkFeU8aZ
 
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klm617
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Re: Is ATL About To Fall Relative To Other Megahubs?

Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:14 am

Delta will do whatever it needs too to keep the title of worlds busiest airport for Atlanta and after that it will make sure that it can call ATL the busiest airport in the Americas. It's something Delta loves to run up the flag pole as often as it can.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
ADrum23
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Re: Is ATL About To Fall Relative To Other Megahubs?

Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:20 am

LAXLHR wrote:
DFW had a brilliant master plan from day one. One cannot help but be in awe to the brilliance of that airport design.


DFW is incredibly underutilized IMO. AA should be much bigger there, maybe not necessarily to DL/ATL levels, but pretty close.
 
ADrum23
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Re: Is ATL About To Fall Relative To Other Megahubs?

Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:24 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
GSP psgr wrote:
CLT: About to open the new concourse A North in June; plans in works for ~12 gate additions to Concourses B and C, adding significant capacity for American Airlines.

DFW: Plans to build a full scale Terminal F to accommodate American Airlines expansion.

DEN: Announced plans to add 39 additional gates to accommodate growth by United and Southwest.

IAH: Plans in works for new Terminal B North for United as well as a new, significantly larger International Terminal D for growth.

ORD: Recently announced massive expansion plans including a large expansion of C and a new Concourse D, plus the new L stinger gates for American Eagle.


Get back to us when those airports meet (in the present tense) ATL's gate count, have six runways, and have upgauged to Delta's average at ATL.


Well, ORD already has more runways than ATL (with an eighth under construction), will have more gates than ATL when the terminal expansion is completed and has the advantage of having two carriers that will likely upgauge. ORD will significantly close the gap in the next decade.
 
ADrum23
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Re: Is ATL About To Fall Relative To Other Megahubs?

Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:27 am

jumbojet wrote:
How much bigger do you want ATL to be? Currently, it has 207 gates and with the T expansion and the new 10 gate concourse G, it will boost the overall gate capacity by 7%. That will be more than twice as much as DEN. Looks like DFW currently has 165 gates.

Looking way ahead into the future, there is a plan for a concourse H at ATL but that's not until 2030.

According to Wiki, ATL has over 1,000 flights a day with most of those obviously belonging to Delta.


It doesn't need to get any bigger, it is way oversized as it is. It is only as big as it is because DL insists on routing half of their network through it. It has way less O&D than other megahubs.
 
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william
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Re: Is ATL About To Fall Relative To Other Megahubs?

Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:32 am

klm617 wrote:
Delta will do whatever it needs too to keep the title of worlds busiest airport for Atlanta and after that it will make sure that it can call ATL the busiest airport in the Americas. It's something Delta loves to run up the flag pole as often as it can.


No, Delta will do whatever necessary to keep ATL profitable, that is all they care about.
 
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deltadawg
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Re: Is ATL About To Fall Relative To Other Megahubs?

Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:53 am

ATL passed 100 million passengers 3-4 years ago and has since been in the 104+ million since. According to the master plan there is enough room and future construction project capacity up to 121 million in the next 20 years which is essentially a 20% increase over ATL's current passenger counts. It is already in ATL's master plan to add Concourse G (extension of the current F International Concourse) along with H & I which are supposed to have a total of approximately 36 gates. Some of those gates also are supposed to accommodate A380's. Additionally, Concourse D is the biggest detriment and to some degree B. That being said ATL will have to also add a sixth runway which will most likely be the midfield runway. The additional runway will displace some cargo and kitchen (Gate Gourmet facility) but they are supposed to have space on the opposite side of I75 with a crossover bridge for services.

In the end one only needs to look at ATL's master plan for the next 1-10 years and 11-20 years plan for the $9 Billion US Dollars worth of expansion and improvements to support an additional 20-25 million passengers over the next 20 years.
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777Mech
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Re: Is ATL About To Fall Relative To Other Megahubs?

Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:53 am

ADrum23 wrote:
jumbojet wrote:
How much bigger do you want ATL to be? Currently, it has 207 gates and with the T expansion and the new 10 gate concourse G, it will boost the overall gate capacity by 7%. That will be more than twice as much as DEN. Looks like DFW currently has 165 gates.

Looking way ahead into the future, there is a plan for a concourse H at ATL but that's not until 2030.

According to Wiki, ATL has over 1,000 flights a day with most of those obviously belonging to Delta.


It doesn't need to get any bigger, it is way oversized as it is. It is only as big as it is because DL insists on routing half of their network through it. It has way less O&D than other megahubs.


Oversized? No. ATL is incredibly efficient, much better layout and less delay prone than ORD and that's why DL can run the operation that it does. That, and the weather is fair most of the year, hardly any deicing days etc.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Is ATL About To Fall Relative Tmio Other Megahubs?

Sun Apr 22, 2018 3:03 am

777Mech wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
You are looking in the wrong places...

Atlanta will be knocked off the top spot by a city in Asia.

That’s the future...


If you think it's going to be PEK you have another thing coming.

Daxing will be opening next year.

When I read the thread title I was expecting discussion on new-IST, Daxing, Jakarta (needs a new airport), or another project.


For falling means not being #1. There is no domestic airport that is on track to displace ATL at #1.

Sometime in the next 20 years an Asian hub will be #1. It would be LHR, but the avoidance of expanding has been going for too long as with ORD.

DFW needs gates for non-AA, as does DTW. ATL is on track to expand first. You cannot displace #1 when the top dog gets first mover advantage.

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tys777
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Re: Is ATL About To Fall Relative To Other Megahubs?

Sun Apr 22, 2018 3:21 am

william wrote:
klm617 wrote:
Delta will do whatever it needs too to keep the title of worlds busiest airport for Atlanta and after that it will make sure that it can call ATL the busiest airport in the Americas. It's something Delta loves to run up the flag pole as often as it can.


No, Delta will do whatever necessary to keep ATL profitable, that is all they care about.


That and screwing over DTW.....
 
ADrum23
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Re: Is ATL About To Fall Relative To Other Megahubs?

Sun Apr 22, 2018 3:37 am

tys777 wrote:
william wrote:
klm617 wrote:
Delta will do whatever it needs too to keep the title of worlds busiest airport for Atlanta and after that it will make sure that it can call ATL the busiest airport in the Americas. It's something Delta loves to run up the flag pole as often as it can.


No, Delta will do whatever necessary to keep ATL profitable, that is all they care about.


That and screwing over DTW.....


It's their entire network that gets screwed because they glorify ATL.
 
ADrum23
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Re: Is ATL About To Fall Relative To Other Megahubs?

Sun Apr 22, 2018 3:42 am

777Mech wrote:
ADrum23 wrote:
jumbojet wrote:
How much bigger do you want ATL to be? Currently, it has 207 gates and with the T expansion and the new 10 gate concourse G, it will boost the overall gate capacity by 7%. That will be more than twice as much as DEN. Looks like DFW currently has 165 gates.

Looking way ahead into the future, there is a plan for a concourse H at ATL but that's not until 2030.

According to Wiki, ATL has over 1,000 flights a day with most of those obviously belonging to Delta.


It doesn't need to get any bigger, it is way oversized as it is. It is only as big as it is because DL insists on routing half of their network through it. It has way less O&D than other megahubs.


Oversized? No. ATL is incredibly efficient, much better layout and less delay prone than ORD and that's why DL can run the operation that it does. That, and the weather is fair most of the year, hardly any deicing days etc.


Yes it is oversized for the market it serves. How much O&D does it have compared to other megahubs?

Also, the layout is no longer an advantage. ORD has re-configured their runways in a similar layout (and have more of them) and will be rebuilding the terminal space into island concourses like ATL.

But that is besides the point, DFW kicks both of their butts with their incredibly efficient layout.......
 
777Mech
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Re: Is ATL About To Fall Relative To Other Megahubs?

Sun Apr 22, 2018 4:06 am

ADrum23 wrote:
777Mech wrote:
ADrum23 wrote:

It doesn't need to get any bigger, it is way oversized as it is. It is only as big as it is because DL insists on routing half of their network through it. It has way less O&D than other megahubs.


Oversized? No. ATL is incredibly efficient, much better layout and less delay prone than ORD and that's why DL can run the operation that it does. That, and the weather is fair most of the year, hardly any deicing days etc.


Yes it is oversized for the market it serves. How much O&D does it have compared to other megahubs?

Also, the layout is no longer an advantage. ORD has re-configured their runways in a similar layout (and have more of them) and will be rebuilding the terminal space into island concourses like ATL.

But that is besides the point, DFW kicks both of their butts with their incredibly efficient layout.......


I'm not sure how to pull O&D numbers, but if we look at MSA, ATL has a catchment of nearly 6 million, DFW has 6.5M.

If we are going to talk about being overserved, look at CLT.
 
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deltadawg
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Re: Is ATL About To Fall Relative To Other Megahubs?

Sun Apr 22, 2018 4:14 am

ADrum23 wrote:
tys777 wrote:
william wrote:

No, Delta will do whatever necessary to keep ATL profitable, that is all they care about.


That and screwing over DTW.....


It's their entire network that gets screwed because they glorify ATL.


Not sure how this works? Why would DL screw over themselves in favor of an airport? The assumption that they are purposely screwing over DTW in favor of ATL is ridiculous. If that were the case then DL would have put the new A350's on routes out of ATL not DTW.

No doubt DL works with ATL to keep moving forward but it is a symbiotic relationship and both flourish. I don't think there is an Airline/Airport relationship in The U.S. as strong as DL/ATL, perhaps even in the World. I for one have hoped for a second airport in Atlanta for twenty years but it will not happen until sometime in the 2050's at best. No Western Hemisphere airport will eclipse ATL any time soon. Best bet is PEK but with the new Daxing airport I would bet not as I suspect the new airport will suck up some 10-15% of PEK's passengers in the first full year.
GO Dawgs, Sic' em, woof woof woof
 
ADrum23
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Re: Is ATL About To Fall Relative To Other Megahubs?

Sun Apr 22, 2018 4:26 am

deltadawg wrote:
ADrum23 wrote:
tys777 wrote:

That and screwing over DTW.....


It's their entire network that gets screwed because they glorify ATL.


Not sure how this works? Why would DL screw over themselves in favor of an airport? The assumption that they are purposely screwing over DTW in favor of ATL is ridiculous. If that were the case then DL would have put the new A350's on routes out of ATL not DTW.

No doubt DL works with ATL to keep moving forward but it is a symbiotic relationship and both flourish. I don't think there is an Airline/Airport relationship in The U.S. as strong as DL/ATL, perhaps even in the World. I for one have hoped for a second airport in Atlanta for twenty years but it will not happen until sometime in the 2050's at best. No Western Hemisphere airport will eclipse ATL any time soon. Best bet is PEK but with the new Daxing airport I would bet not as I suspect the new airport will suck up some 10-15% of PEK's passengers in the first full year.


Routing half of your network through one airport is a recipe for disaster (see the December power outage). At least UA and AA spread out their traffic a bit more evenly so that way the disruptions aren’t as bad when something goes wrong.

Though one could argue that AA is severely underutilizing DFW and could route more traffic through there (and upgauge more)......

I just don’t see ATL dramatically increasing all that much. ORD will close the gap when the expansion is all said and done.
 
tys777
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Re: Is ATL About To Fall Relative To Other Megahubs?

Sun Apr 22, 2018 4:31 am

deltadawg wrote:
ADrum23 wrote:
tys777 wrote:

That and screwing over DTW.....


It's their entire network that gets screwed because they glorify ATL.


Not sure how this works? Why would DL screw over themselves in favor of an airport? The assumption that they are purposely screwing over DTW in favor of ATL is ridiculous. If that were the case then DL would have put the new A350's on routes out of ATL not DTW.

No doubt DL works with ATL to keep moving forward but it is a symbiotic relationship and both flourish. I don't think there is an Airline/Airport relationship in The U.S. as strong as DL/ATL, perhaps even in the World. I for one have hoped for a second airport in Atlanta for twenty years but it will not happen until sometime in the 2050's at best. No Western Hemisphere airport will eclipse ATL any time soon. Best bet is PEK but with the new Daxing airport I would bet not as I suspect the new airport will suck up some 10-15% of PEK's passengers in the first full year.


I wish there was an easier way to convey sarcasm on the internet. I love DTW, but recognize it for what it and MSP are, a key cog in a huge network.

Ultimately, I love the ATL hub. It is outstanding at what it was designed to do. There are certainly some areas that could use updating (primarily the non DL areas) but that is the case anywhere.
 
ADrum23
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Re: Is ATL About To Fall Relative To Other Megahubs?

Sun Apr 22, 2018 4:31 am

tys777 wrote:
deltadawg wrote:
ADrum23 wrote:

It's their entire network that gets screwed because they glorify ATL.


Not sure how this works? Why would DL screw over themselves in favor of an airport? The assumption that they are purposely screwing over DTW in favor of ATL is ridiculous. If that were the case then DL would have put the new A350's on routes out of ATL not DTW.

No doubt DL works with ATL to keep moving forward but it is a symbiotic relationship and both flourish. I don't think there is an Airline/Airport relationship in The U.S. as strong as DL/ATL, perhaps even in the World. I for one have hoped for a second airport in Atlanta for twenty years but it will not happen until sometime in the 2050's at best. No Western Hemisphere airport will eclipse ATL any time soon. Best bet is PEK but with the new Daxing airport I would bet not as I suspect the new airport will suck up some 10-15% of PEK's passengers in the first full year.


I wish there was an easier way to convey sarcasm on the internet. I love DTW, but recognize it for what it and MSP are, a key cog in a huge network.

Ultimately, I love the ATL hub. It is outstanding at what it was designed to do. There are certainly some areas that could use updating (primarily the non DL areas) but that is the case anywhere.


Yeah, I know you were being sarcastic. Its all good.
 
questions
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Re: Is ATL About To Fall Relative To Other Megahubs?

Sun Apr 22, 2018 6:13 am

I love the simplicity and efficient design of ATL. With that said, I try to avoid connecting through ATL. It reminds me of how malls used to be at Christmas. It’s just too crowded!

Are there plans to widen Concourse D?

Is Concourse E still considered an international concourse or has Delta taken over for mostly domestic flights? Or is it a hybrid with domestic flights filling in between international banks?
 
Arion640
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Re: Is ATL About To Fall Relative Tmio Other Megahubs?

Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:12 am

lightsaber wrote:
777Mech wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
You are looking in the wrong places...

Atlanta will be knocked off the top spot by a city in Asia.

That’s the future...


If you think it's going to be PEK you have another thing coming.

Daxing will be opening next year.

When I read the thread title I was expecting discussion on new-IST, Daxing, Jakarta (needs a new airport), or another project.


For falling means not being #1. There is no domestic airport that is on track to displace ATL at #1.

Sometime in the next 20 years an Asian hub will be #1. It would be LHR, but the avoidance of expanding has been going for too long as with ORD.

DFW needs gates for non-AA, as does DTW. ATL is on track to expand first. You cannot displace #1 when the top dog gets first mover advantage.

Lightsaber


I wouldn
 
Arion640
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Re: Is ATL About To Fall Relative Tmio Other Megahubs?

Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:14 am

lightsaber wrote:
777Mech wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
You are looking in the wrong places...

Atlanta will be knocked off the top spot by a city in Asia.

That’s the future...


If you think it's going to be PEK you have another thing coming.

Daxing will be opening next year.

When I read the thread title I was expecting discussion on new-IST, Daxing, Jakarta (needs a new airport), or another project.


For falling means not being #1. There is no domestic airport that is on track to displace ATL at #1.

Sometime in the next 20 years an Asian hub will be #1. It would be LHR, but the avoidance of expanding has been going for too long as with ORD.

DFW needs gates for non-AA, as does DTW. ATL is on track to expand first. You cannot displace #1 when the top dog gets first mover advantage.

Lightsaber


I expect in the next 20 years DWC won't be far away from the number 1 spot...
 
jetlanta
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Re: Is ATL About To Fall Relative To Other Megahubs?

Sun Apr 22, 2018 1:09 pm

ADrum23 wrote:
tys777 wrote:
william wrote:

No, Delta will do whatever necessary to keep ATL profitable, that is all they care about.


That and screwing over DTW.....


It's their entire network that gets screwed because they glorify ATL.


Do you guys every wonder why the people that run Delta, who were not born in Atlanta, who have not worked for Delta their career and a have a fiduciary duty to shareholders, continue to maintain ATL's size and scope?

It is because ATL is THE BEST connecting hub in the world. The combination of its geography (relative to high volume traffic flows), competitive environment, local market size and economy, low costs and infrastructure is unparalleled. ATL gets attention because it deserves it. It drives revenue and profits to a degree that other U.S. hub can. Other airlines would trade for ATL in a heartbeat.

Your comments are not only silly, they are misinformed. ATL has no more departures now than it did in 2005. All of the growth has been in aircraft size, just as it has been elsewhere. In the meantime, Delta has opened three new hubs and doubled the size of JFK. They've broadened their network with the most integrated JV program in the industry. They've made huge infrastructure commitments at JFK, LGA, SEA, LAX and SLC. Explain to me how the rest of the network has been screwed. Or is this just a DTW/MSP thing again?
 
tys777
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Re: Is ATL About To Fall Relative To Other Megahubs?

Sun Apr 22, 2018 1:24 pm

jetlanta wrote:
ADrum23 wrote:
tys777 wrote:

That and screwing over DTW.....


It's their entire network that gets screwed because they glorify ATL.


Do you guys every wonder why the people that run Delta, who were not born in Atlanta, who have not worked for Delta their career and a have a fiduciary duty to shareholders, continue to maintain ATL's size and scope?

It is because ATL is THE BEST connecting hub in the world. The combination of its geography (relative to high volume traffic flows), competitive environment, local market size and economy, low costs and infrastructure is unparalleled. ATL gets attention because it deserves it. It drives revenue and profits to a degree that other U.S. hub can. Other airlines would trade for ATL in a heartbeat.

Your comments are not only silly, they are misinformed. ATL has no more departures now than it did in 2005. All of the growth has been in aircraft size, just as it has been elsewhere. In the meantime, Delta has opened three new hubs and doubled the size of JFK. They've broadened their network with the most integrated JV program in the industry. They've made huge infrastructure commitments at JFK, LGA, SEA, LAX and SLC. Explain to me how the rest of the network has been screwed. Or is this just a DTW/MSP thing again?


Let's not forget that IMO, ATL is one of the best hubs to connect in. The layout is extremely easy to navigate compared to MSP, ORD etc..
 
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SumChristianus
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Re: Is ATL About To Fall Relative To Other Megahubs?

Sun Apr 22, 2018 1:33 pm

ATL traffic dropped 0.26% in 2017, DTW increased ~1%
Does DL hate ATL?
:D
DL expanded in ATL since the NW merger, because it had a golden opportunity with WN cutbacks there and because it could make money off of higher volume in ATL than it could with the same flights through DTW at the time. NW had to focus on DTW, MEM, and MSP because that was all it had.
Similarly CO had IAH for east west connections, UA has reduced IAH greatly in terms of departures and in the east west market. Why?

Not because they hate IAH, but because DEN and ORD are better placed for some of the east-west flows CO had targeted through IAH, IND-IAH-LAX, for example vs. IND-ORD-LAX.

ATL is near capacity and may be overtaken in the future, but it won't drop in traffic like some hope. DTW won't overtake ATL at DL, Florida is easier to sell than Buffalo, for example, but will grow.
UA DL LH NW AA WN - Hope I don't have to leave WY for a while
"Born in Wonder, Brought to Wisdom"
 
Dalmd88
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Re: Is ATL About To Fall Relative To Other Megahubs?

Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:30 pm

There is no competition for 'World's largest/busiest Airport'. I really doubt anyone on the city council, the airport management, or even Delta for that matter has ever made any moves just to keep that title. ATL has grown only because it made sense. It has brought lots of business into town by being large, but doesn't have to be the biggest to do that.
 
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AVLAirlineFreq
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Re: Is ATL About To Fall Relative To Other Megahubs?

Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:32 pm

ATL is a machine. I know people like to look at the exceptions when it doesn't work, but those are just that--rare exceptions. And yes, there are several areas for improvement (Concourse D, for example), but it still works far more often than not.

I don't see ATL being overtaken in passenger traffic terms by an American airport anytime soon. Other airports will pick up traffic and ATL may level off or decline, but the gap in passenger traffic between ATL and other US hubs is huge and for another airport to surpass would require a number of separate major events to occur.
 
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Narfish641
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Re: Is ATL About To Fall Relative To Other Megahubs?

Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:37 pm

jumbojet wrote:
How much bigger do you want ATL to be? Currently, it has 207 gates and with the T expansion and the new 10 gate concourse G, it will boost the overall gate capacity by 7%. That will be more than twice as much as DEN. Looks like DFW currently has 165 gates.

Looking way ahead into the future, there is a plan for a concourse H at ATL but that's not until 2030.

According to Wiki, ATL has over 1,000 flights a day with most of those obviously belonging to Delta.


Slight correction, KATL actually has 209 gates. Honestly with the 15 total gates added to Concourse T and F, a new runway, and more parking, there will very interesting years coming for ATL.
Flew on:
SWA 737 738
 
airbazar
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Re: Is ATL About To Fall Relative To Other Megahubs?

Sun Apr 22, 2018 3:28 pm

GSP psgr wrote:
Elsewhere:
CLT, DFW, DEN, IAH, ORD

Relative to ATL only CLT is a true North-South hub in the most densely populated area of the country.
What ATL has going for it, is that half of the US population lives East of the Mississippi and a lot of them travel along the eastern seaboard.
At over 100 million annual passengers we can be sure that its growth will slow, stagnate, or even reverse at times. Does it really matter? I don't think so. Is there really any other airport in the US with capacity to reach 100 million passengers annually? ORD maybe?
Another advantage of ATL is its proximity to S.America. I suspect that with 200 A321NEO's on order DL might be looking at resuming some of the suspended routes in Latin America and even start new ones or up-gauge existing routes.
jfklganyc wrote:
You are looking in the wrong places...
Atlanta will be knocked off the top spot by a city in Asia.
That’s the future...

IST is in Europe, not Asia :) But I assumed he was referring to the US megahubs only.
Having said that, there really aren't a lot of hubs in the world with the market to generate 100 million annual passengers.
 
ncflyer
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Re: Is ATL About To Fall Relative To Other Megahubs?

Sun Apr 22, 2018 6:44 pm

Raise your hand if you thought ORD would ever lose its perch as #1 to ATL in the first place. Chicago much larger city, excellent location, two hubs (though it does split traffic with Midway). When it first happened I thought it was a temporary fluke, but boy was I wrong. Point is never say never.
 
OneAA
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Re: Is ATL About To Fall Relative To Other Megahubs?

Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:52 pm

This thread is funny for several reasons. First, the liberal use of “mega” hubs. Atlanta (Delta near 1000 daily flights) and DFW (AA soon to be 900 plus daily flights) are the only true single airline mega hubs. Chicago and Denver are mega hubs with multiple airline hubs. To call CLT a megahub is laughable. With 640 daily flights on AA and most connecting places like Lynchburg to Augusta, it is a large regional hub. No Asian or Middle East nonstops, few if any South American nonstops, few European nonstops, CLT is not “mega”. Let’s get our terminology correct. Will Atlanta be overtaken......will be a while. Best chance to overtake ATL is DFW, but then you figure Love into the equation and that’s another 14 million not added to DFW’s 68 million passengers.
 
deltal1011man
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Re: Is ATL About To Fall Relative To Other Megahubs?

Sun Apr 22, 2018 10:07 pm

GSP psgr wrote:
If one looks at the master plans of the major US megahubs, it's noticeable how little additional gate capacity Atlanta is planning on building-a modest ~10 gate Concourse G for International Arrivals/Departures, which may not even be built. They'll also be doing a very modest expansion of the T gates, adding a few for the United and American operations. But that's it. Long term, Atlanta is probably going to have to eventually find a way to move Delta's TechOps somewhere else (probably the north side of the airport) in order to open up the necessary space for significant terminal construction and expansion.

Elsewhere:

CLT: About to open the new concourse A North in June; plans in works for ~12 gate additions to Concourses B and C, adding significant capacity for American Airlines.

DFW: Plans to build a full scale Terminal F to accommodate American Airlines expansion.

DEN: Announced plans to add 39 additional gates to accommodate growth by United and Southwest.

IAH: Plans in works for new Terminal B North for United as well as a new, significantly larger International Terminal D for growth.

ORD: Recently announced massive expansion plans including a large expansion of C and a new Concourse D, plus the new L stinger gates for American Eagle.

This would set the stage for Atlanta to lose ground to their peer competitors, and would possibly place Delta at a disadvantage. American is supposedly talking about bringing DFW up to the ~900 flights per day range, and while Houston's been hit hard by hurricane damage it will continue to grow. O'Hare's talking big things again (though Illinois's economy is...eeeh), and Charlotte continues to boom.

It might also portend a relative shift in capacity towards Detroit, Minneapolis, and Salt Lake City within the Delta network; Detroit in particular has a moderate amount of excess gate capacity and could probably handle a 10 million passenger increase without too much difficulty; the new terminal at SLC will also bring online a significant increase in capacity for Delta once it is finished.

You need to go back and look at the master plan again.

The goal is to be able to build out not only concourse G but also a H and I. Delta cargo and the thrust reverser shop would move to the south side of the field. Along with that they would then turn E into another domestic concourse.

TechOps moving is now out of the question. A ton of money and work is being put into TOC1 becoming an engine shop and the new test cell(world's largest) being built. That doesn't mean at some point Delta wont be building hangars where north cargo is, but it wont be a replacement for TOC2 or TOC3. There is some talk of Delta building something to replace the capacity lost from TOC1 when FedEx and UPS move to the south cargo complex but that was before Delta and ExpressJet agreed for Delta to take over the ex Eastern hangar once the ExpressJet operations end. 9E and Delta will use the south hangar till the lease ends in ~8 years. Then it will finally come down and cargo will expand in its place.

ADrum23 wrote:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... 2zUkFeU8aZ
ADrum23 wrote:
deltadawg wrote:
ADrum23 wrote:

It's their entire network that gets screwed because they glorify ATL.

LOL what?
ADrum23 wrote:
Routing half of your network through one airport is a recipe for disaster (see the December power outage). At least UA and AA spread out their traffic a bit more evenly so that way the disruptions aren’t as bad when something goes wrong.

Though one could argue that AA is severely underutilizing DFW and could route more traffic through there (and upgauge more)......

I just don’t see ATL dramatically increasing all that much. ORD will close the gap when the expansion is all said and done.

*looks at Delta's profits, looks at American/United's profits....... looks at Delta's profits, looks at American/United profits*

So, ADrum, other than literally trying to lose money and lower profits, you have a real reason why Delta should do things more like American and LOL United?

"Hey lets take the most profitable hub in the world, cut flights from it because FEELS!"
makes absolutely zero sense.
 
EvanWSFO
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Re: Is ATL About To Fall Relative To Other Megahubs?

Sun Apr 22, 2018 10:12 pm

As someone alluded to up in this thread, probably the only people who salivate over who has the world's biggest/busiest airport are people commenting on this site.
I have been on this site 15 years. A unrecoverable email account led me to starting over. Those of you who call me a rookie, you may stop ok?
 
ADrum23
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Re: Is ATL About To Fall Relative To Other Megahubs?

Sun Apr 22, 2018 10:17 pm

deltal1011man wrote:
So, ADrum, other than literally trying to lose money and lower profits, you have a real reason why Delta should do things more like American and LOL United?

"Hey lets take the most profitable hub in the world, cut flights from it because FEELS!"
makes absolutely zero sense.


As far as I'm concerned, one computer meltdown or incident like the December power outage and it's slot control time at ATL.........
 
OneAA
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Re: Is ATL About To Fall Relative To Other Megahubs?

Sun Apr 22, 2018 10:31 pm

ADrum23 wrote:
LAXLHR wrote:
DFW had a brilliant master plan from day one. One cannot help but be in awe to the brilliance of that airport design.


DFW is incredibly underutilized IMO. AA should be much bigger there, maybe not necessarily to DL/ATL levels, but pretty close.

What???? You are joking right? At over 800 daily AA flights and soon to be 900 plus AA daily, second only to ATL as the 2nd largest single airline hub in the world.....surely you joke, right? Have you EVER flown through DFW????
 
ADrum23
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Re: Is ATL About To Fall Relative To Other Megahubs?

Sun Apr 22, 2018 10:43 pm

OneAA wrote:
ADrum23 wrote:
LAXLHR wrote:
DFW had a brilliant master plan from day one. One cannot help but be in awe to the brilliance of that airport design.


DFW is incredibly underutilized IMO. AA should be much bigger there, maybe not necessarily to DL/ATL levels, but pretty close.

What???? You are joking right? At over 800 daily AA flights and soon to be 900 plus AA daily, second only to ATL as the 2nd largest single airline hub in the world.....surely you joke, right? Have you EVER flown through DFW????


Then why isn’t DFW at 100 million+ pax with over 200 gates?
 
EvanWSFO
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Re: Is ATL About To Fall Relative To Other Megahubs?

Sun Apr 22, 2018 11:34 pm

ADrum23 wrote:
OneAA wrote:
ADrum23 wrote:

DFW is incredibly underutilized IMO. AA should be much bigger there, maybe not necessarily to DL/ATL levels, but pretty close.

What???? You are joking right? At over 800 daily AA flights and soon to be 900 plus AA daily, second only to ATL as the 2nd largest single airline hub in the world.....surely you joke, right? Have you EVER flown through DFW????


Then why isn’t DFW at 100 million+ pax with over 200 gates?


In part, because they are still heavy on ERD/ER4 flights. Have you seen terminal B at peak time? While more CR9's and E75's are being used, those 40+ gates move a lot of <50 seaters.
I have been on this site 15 years. A unrecoverable email account led me to starting over. Those of you who call me a rookie, you may stop ok?

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