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flymco753
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Passenger Forcibly Removed off an AA Flight @ MIA

Mon Apr 23, 2018 9:03 pm

...the carriage of liquids, gels, and aerosols are prohibited through the screening checkpoint except for travel size toiletries of 3 ounces or less...
 
F27500
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Re: Passenger Forcibly Removed off an AA Flight @ MIA

Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:56 pm

Ohhhh now .. he was just bein friendly !
 
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MSPSXMFLIER
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Re: Passenger Forcibly Removed off an AA Flight @ MIA

Mon Apr 23, 2018 11:31 pm

I wonder how many passengers on that flight were inconvenienced with missed connections because of the delay in having to subdue and remove that idiot? That guy should be banned from all US airlines.
 
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flymco753
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Re: Passenger Forcibly Removed off an AA Flight @ MIA

Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:17 am

MSPSXMFLIER wrote:
I wonder how many passengers on that flight were inconvenienced with missed connections because of the delay in having to subdue and remove that idiot? That guy should be banned from all US airlines.
I wonder what would’ve happened if the passengers would’ve just beat hm up?
...the carriage of liquids, gels, and aerosols are prohibited through the screening checkpoint except for travel size toiletries of 3 ounces or less...
 
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MSPSXMFLIER
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Re: Passenger Forcibly Removed off an AA Flight @ MIA

Tue Apr 24, 2018 1:37 am

flymco753 wrote:
MSPSXMFLIER wrote:
I wonder how many passengers on that flight were inconvenienced with missed connections because of the delay in having to subdue and remove that idiot? That guy should be banned from all US airlines.
I wonder what would’ve happened if the passengers would’ve just beat hm up?

Give it time, I wouldn't rule out an eventual incident where something like that happens. There's been way too many news stories about misbehaving passengers over the last decade plus. Were it to happen, my guess would be that the instigator would be hauled off, beaten and bloodied, and none of the passengers who got involved would suffer anything more than just a tongue wagging from local airport police. To me, anyone or any group of passengers that can subdue and restrain a nutcase who may have plans for who knows what type of disturbance on a plane, has my thumbs up to do whatever they think is necessary to keep some kind of order until the flight crew can land and have police take over.
 
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exFWAOONW
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Re: Passenger Forcibly Removed off an AA Flight @ MIA

Tue Apr 24, 2018 1:48 am

You mean like the guy who was killed while being subdued? That is a very slippery slope to walk.
Is just me, or is flying not as much fun anymore?
 
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September11
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Re: Passenger Forcibly Removed off an AA Flight @ MIA

Tue Apr 24, 2018 3:21 am

Source: aa.com, American Airlines Newsroom, Statement on Flight 2446 April 22, 2018
-
On Sunday evening, a disagreement occurred between two passengers on American Airlines flight 2446 from Miami to Chicago O’Hare. The aircraft was still at the gate in Miami, and the instigating passenger was asked by our Miami team members to deplane and he refused. In accordance with our procedures, American began the process of deplaning the entire aircraft. During that process, a physical altercation between the same two passengers took place. Once law enforcement was on the aircraft, the passenger then became combative with the officers from the Miami-Dade Police Department. The same passenger was subsequently arrested by law enforcement. We will cooperate with the Miami-Dade Police Department on this matter. The flight, which was scheduled to depart at 9:30 p.m. ET, departed at 10:34 p.m. ET with all remaining passengers. We thank our crews and airport customer service team for their excellent work in this situation.
-
Airliners.net of the Future
 
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Re: Passenger Forcibly Removed off an AA Flight @ MIA

Tue Apr 24, 2018 3:28 am

MSPSXMFLIER wrote:
I wonder how many passengers on that flight were inconvenienced with missed connections because of the delay in having to subdue and remove that idiot? That guy should be banned from all US airlines.


I wonder how many passengers are making connections at 12:30am? (This flight, AA2446 was scheduled to arrive in ORD at 11:55pm. Ultimately the flight was only 38 minutes late arriving.)
 
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Re: Passenger Forcibly Removed off an AA Flight @ MIA

Tue Apr 24, 2018 3:30 am

September11 wrote:
Source: aa.com, American Airlines Newsroom, Statement on Flight 2446 April 22, 2018
-
On Sunday evening, a disagreement occurred between two passengers on American Airlines flight 2446 from Miami to Chicago O’Hare. The aircraft was still at the gate in Miami, and the instigating passenger was asked by our Miami team members to deplane and he refused. In accordance with our procedures, American began the process of deplaning the entire aircraft. During that process, a physical altercation between the same two passengers took place. Once law enforcement was on the aircraft, the passenger then became combative with the officers from the Miami-Dade Police Department. The same passenger was subsequently arrested by law enforcement. We will cooperate with the Miami-Dade Police Department on this matter. The flight, which was scheduled to depart at 9:30 p.m. ET, departed at 10:34 p.m. ET with all remaining passengers. We thank our crews and airport customer service team for their excellent work in this situation.
-


Why would they be removing everyone? Is the thought just to get innocent bystanders out of harms way if the arrest of the instigating passenger?
 
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Re: Passenger Forcibly Removed off an AA Flight @ MIA

Tue Apr 24, 2018 3:38 am

- Double post; Airliners site being erratic. Please remove.
Last edited by Jetty on Tue Apr 24, 2018 3:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: Passenger Forcibly Removed off an AA Flight @ MIA

Tue Apr 24, 2018 3:38 am

exFWAOONW wrote:
You mean like the guy who was killed while being subdued? That is a very slippery slope to walk.

The ‘guy who was killed while being subdued’? Wanna include some specifics in your reply? Passengers aren’t as likely to sit still and do nothing after the events of 9/11 if some nutcase starts making a scene on a plane.
 
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Re: Passenger Forcibly Removed off an AA Flight @ MIA

Tue Apr 24, 2018 3:38 am

Ridiculous cops that they felt the need to use a taser against an unarmed civilian who is resisting arrest but no threat in any way. US cops might learn a thing or 2 from their Canadian colleagues. That the taser didn't work had to be divine intervention.
 
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Re: Passenger Forcibly Removed off an AA Flight @ MIA

Tue Apr 24, 2018 3:45 am

USAirKid wrote:
MSPSXMFLIER wrote:
I wonder how many passengers on that flight were inconvenienced with missed connections because of the delay in having to subdue and remove that idiot? That guy should be banned from all US airlines.


I wonder how many passengers are making connections at 12:30am? (This flight, AA2446 was scheduled to arrive in ORD at 11:55pm. Ultimately the flight was only 38 minutes late arriving.)

Perhaps with the late hour, there were none from this flight?
 
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Re: Passenger Forcibly Removed off an AA Flight @ MIA

Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:02 am

Jetty wrote:
Ridiculous cops that they felt the need to use a taser against an unarmed civilian who is resisting arrest but no threat in any way. US cops might learn a thing or 2 from their Canadian colleagues. That the taser didn't work had to be divine intervention.


Using Canadian tactics those passengers wouldn't have made it to ORD until 5AM.

Hopefully nobody missed their connections.
 
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flymco753
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Re: Passenger Forcibly Removed off an AA Flight @ MIA

Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:13 am

Jetty wrote:
Ridiculous cops that they felt the need to use a taser against an unarmed civilian who is resisting arrest but no threat in any way. US cops might learn a thing or 2 from their Canadian colleagues. That the taser didn't work had to be divine intervention.
I mean he did taunt them, so they delivered. He basically asked for it.
...the carriage of liquids, gels, and aerosols are prohibited through the screening checkpoint except for travel size toiletries of 3 ounces or less...
 
robsaw
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Re: Passenger Forcibly Removed off an AA Flight @ MIA

Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:17 am

Jetty wrote:
Ridiculous cops that they felt the need to use a taser against an unarmed civilian who is resisting arrest but no threat in any way. US cops might learn a thing or 2 from their Canadian colleagues. That the taser didn't work had to be divine intervention.


You mean this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Dz ... r_incident

Wasn't onboard an aircraft and didn't involve any other individuals.Also, the officers were charged (one convicted) of perjury and collusion in their testimony regarding the resultant court case.
 
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Re: Passenger Forcibly Removed off an AA Flight @ MIA

Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:47 am

MSPSXMFLIER wrote:
exFWAOONW wrote:
You mean like the guy who was killed while being subdued? That is a very slippery slope to walk.

The ‘guy who was killed while being subdued’? Wanna include some specifics in your reply? Passengers aren’t as likely to sit still and do nothing after the events of 9/11 if some nutcase starts making a scene on a plane.

I think he means NW 1763 (which actually occured before 9/11), some guy burst into the cockpit and injured someone. A group of passengers restrained him, but with enough force to asphyxiate him. I think the restraint was justified as he was posing a large threat to the safety of the flight, and his death was just an unfortunate result.
319, 320, 738, MD80
 
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Re: Passenger Forcibly Removed off an AA Flight @ MIA

Tue Apr 24, 2018 5:24 am

ChristopherS wrote:
MSPSXMFLIER wrote:
exFWAOONW wrote:
You mean like the guy who was killed while being subdued? That is a very slippery slope to walk.

The ‘guy who was killed while being subdued’? Wanna include some specifics in your reply? Passengers aren’t as likely to sit still and do nothing after the events of 9/11 if some nutcase starts making a scene on a plane.

I think he means NW 1763 (which actually occured before 9/11), some guy burst into the cockpit and injured someone. A group of passengers restrained him, but with enough force to asphyxiate him. I think the restraint was justified as he was posing a large threat to the safety of the flight, and his death was just an unfortunate result.


Correction: Southwest 1763
August 11, 2000
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wowlookplanes
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Re: Passenger Forcibly Removed off an AA Flight @ MIA

Tue Apr 24, 2018 8:16 am

F27500 wrote:
Ohhhh now .. he was just bein friendly !


I was hoping someone would joke around about sexual assault, there just aren't enough jokes that make light of a dude that touches women against their will.

I bet you're real popular with the women, yeah?? Beating them off with a stick (metaphorically, I hope), amirite?
 
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Re: Passenger Forcibly Removed off an AA Flight @ MIA

Tue Apr 24, 2018 8:29 am

flymco753 wrote:
Jetty wrote:
Ridiculous cops that they felt the need to use a taser against an unarmed civilian who is resisting arrest but no threat in any way. US cops might learn a thing or 2 from their Canadian colleagues. That the taser didn't work had to be divine intervention.
I mean he did taunt them, so they delivered. He basically asked for it.


I get taunted on the job too. Should I just haul off and assault someone ? Not sure what the American people’s obsession with police are but the proof is all around us that the police are becoming more bold and brutal.

77H
 
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Re: Passenger Forcibly Removed off an AA Flight @ MIA

Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:04 pm

September11 wrote:
ChristopherS wrote:
MSPSXMFLIER wrote:
The ‘guy who was killed while being subdued’? Wanna include some specifics in your reply? Passengers aren’t as likely to sit still and do nothing after the events of 9/11 if some nutcase starts making a scene on a plane.

I think he means NW 1763 (which actually occured before 9/11), some guy burst into the cockpit and injured someone. A group of passengers restrained him, but with enough force to asphyxiate him. I think the restraint was justified as he was posing a large threat to the safety of the flight, and his death was just an unfortunate result.


Correction: Southwest 1763
August 11, 2000
LAS-SLC

Thanks to both of you for the information as I can’t recall that SWA incident. I thought the original reference might be to a PSA incident many years ago, that I vaguely remember, but then realized was a hijacking/suicide instead. I’m referring to PSA flight 1771 on 12/7/87.
 
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Re: Passenger Forcibly Removed off an AA Flight @ MIA

Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:35 pm

This man deserved a good beating! But of course, there would’ve been uproar and there would have been a discussion about complying with crew member instructions as well as those of security/police personnel. Finally, the airline would’ve been blamed for it as well -__-
 
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Re: Passenger Forcibly Removed off an AA Flight @ MIA

Tue Apr 24, 2018 3:28 pm

R
idiculous cops that they felt the need to use a taser against an unarmed civilian who is resisting arrest but no threat in any way.


Resisting arrest but not a threat? Really? Aren't those two terms more or less mutually exclusive? Let's take a look at the news account, shall we?


*A passenger onboard an American Airlines flight leaving Miami for Chicago on Sunday was arrested after he allegedly fought with another passenger before resisting arrest by several police officers.

*Miami-Dade police said the incident started when Garcia allegedly grabbed a female passenger without her permission and began arguing with the woman's boyfriend.

*When officials began deplaning all passengers, Garcia got into a physical altercation with another passenger and was “combative” with Miami-Dade police officers who came onto the plane.

*Officers deployed their Tasers and eventually were able to get Garcia off the plane. Once off the aircraft, Garcia allegedly grabbed the handgun of an officer before he hand was knocked away and attempted to kick out the window of a police vehicle.


How you can claim that this perp wasn't a threat is staggering. He was clearly combative both before and after the police arrived. Watch the video linked to on the news report. There was clearly something wrong with this chud, quite possibly drunk.
 
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Re: Passenger Forcibly Removed off an AA Flight @ MIA

Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:34 pm

Aptivaboy wrote:
How you can claim that this perp wasn't a threat is staggering. He was clearly combative both before and after the police arrived. Watch the video linked to on the news report. There was clearly something wrong with this chud, quite possibly drunk.

One unarmed person being combative against three big guys isn't much of a threat, especially as he isn't spitting, biting or anything like that. And it's the moment they tried to tase him that matters, not what happened before even if he were to be a serial killer. The excessive use of the taser is shown by the video, once the taser doesn't work they need less than a minute to handcuff him, as is to be expected in that situation.
 
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Re: Passenger Forcibly Removed off an AA Flight @ MIA

Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:40 pm

robsaw wrote:
Jetty wrote:
Ridiculous cops that they felt the need to use a taser against an unarmed civilian who is resisting arrest but no threat in any way. US cops might learn a thing or 2 from their Canadian colleagues. That the taser didn't work had to be divine intervention.


You mean this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Dz ... r_incident

Wasn't onboard an aircraft and didn't involve any other individuals.Also, the officers were charged (one convicted) of perjury and collusion in their testimony regarding the resultant court case.

Actually I was thinking about the Canadian cop that didn't shoot despite the 'van-killer' pretending to shoot with his mobile phone several times. Anywhere in the US he would most likely be riddled by bullets.
 
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Re: Passenger Forcibly Removed off an AA Flight @ MIA

Tue Apr 24, 2018 5:05 pm

MSPSXMFLIER wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
MSPSXMFLIER wrote:
I wonder how many passengers on that flight were inconvenienced with missed connections because of the delay in having to subdue and remove that idiot? That guy should be banned from all US airlines.
I wonder what would’ve happened if the passengers would’ve just beat hm up?

Give it time, I wouldn't rule out an eventual incident where something like that happens. There's been way too many news stories about misbehaving passengers over the last decade plus. Were it to happen, my guess would be that the instigator would be hauled off, beaten and bloodied, and none of the passengers who got involved would suffer anything more than just a tongue wagging from local airport police. To me, anyone or any group of passengers that can subdue and restrain a nutcase who may have plans for who knows what type of disturbance on a plane, has my thumbs up to do whatever they think is necessary to keep some kind of order until the flight crew can land and have police take over.


There was an inciden on a WN flight in 2000 where a a male passenger started acting very strange and aggressive. Other passengers subdued him, and he apparently died of asphyxiation.
 
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Re: Passenger Forcibly Removed off an AA Flight @ MIA

Tue Apr 24, 2018 5:23 pm

flyingclrs727 wrote:
MSPSXMFLIER wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
I wonder what would’ve happened if the passengers would’ve just beat hm up?

Give it time, I wouldn't rule out an eventual incident where something like that happens. There's been way too many news stories about misbehaving passengers over the last decade plus. Were it to happen, my guess would be that the instigator would be hauled off, beaten and bloodied, and none of the passengers who got involved would suffer anything more than just a tongue wagging from local airport police. To me, anyone or any group of passengers that can subdue and restrain a nutcase who may have plans for who knows what type of disturbance on a plane, has my thumbs up to do whatever they think is necessary to keep some kind of order until the flight crew can land and have police take over.


There was an inciden on a WN flight in 2000 where a a male passenger started acting very strange and aggressive. Other passengers subdued him, and he apparently died of asphyxiation.

Yes, thank you. Two persons commented on that same incident, earlier. It is mentioned a few entries back from your response.
 
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Re: Passenger Forcibly Removed off an AA Flight @ MIA

Tue Apr 24, 2018 5:42 pm

One unarmed person being combative against three big guys isn't much of a threat, especially as he isn't spitting, biting or anything like that. And it's the moment they tried to tase him that matters, not what happened before even if he were to be a serial killer.


Wrong. Ask any LEO, the totality of the perp's behavior will be assessed in determining what level of force to use to detain, arrest and remove. I showed this to our school's SRO and quite frankly, he was surprised at the lack of force that was used. When someone is in a closed space like a jetliner, probably intoxicated, who had already assaulted other passengers and refuses to comply with lawful and reasonable commands, the police will use what force they need to use. The fact that there were three officers is irrelevant. They will use reasonable force to subdue the dirtbag in question, regardless of whether they're, "three big guys," or not. The perp's prior behavior absolutely does matter, or else how are the cops supposed to know what level of force to use? How else are they supposed to know which exact method to remove this spud from the plane? Should they just ask nicely? They will go on what they personally see and what has previously been reported to them. Seriously, ask an LEO, see what they say.
 
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Re: Passenger Forcibly Removed off an AA Flight @ MIA

Tue Apr 24, 2018 6:49 pm

Aptivaboy wrote:
When someone is in a closed space like a jetliner, probably intoxicated, who had already assaulted other passengers and refuses to comply with lawful and reasonable commands, the police will use what force they need to use.

And they should. That they handcuffed the guy within a minute after the taser didn't work shows that they didn't need the taser at all.

The perp's prior behavior absolutely does matter, or else how are the cops supposed to know what level of force to use?

By assessing his current behavior.

How else are they supposed to know which exact method to remove this spud from the plane? Should they just ask nicely?

They are supposed to know what level of force is necessary. That there are other options than using a weapon or asking nicely is clearly shown in the video.

Seriously, ask an LEO, see what they say.

In the US you might very well get the answer you provide. In other western countries you'll more likely get my answer. That's why I mentioned US law enforcement might learn a thing or 2 abroad. In my country of 17 million people the taser got used a total of 65 times last year, and that's not in situations like this. And guess what, 0 cops died while doing there job.
 
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Re: Passenger Forcibly Removed off an AA Flight @ MIA

Tue Apr 24, 2018 7:00 pm

How would you have gotten him off of the plane? He was combative, aggressive, and refused to comply with lawful commands. How would you have done it?

https://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/Pas ... 27161.html
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: Passenger Forcibly Removed off an AA Flight @ MIA

Tue Apr 24, 2018 7:53 pm

Aptivaboy wrote:
*A passenger onboard an American Airlines flight leaving Miami for Chicago on Sunday was arrested after he allegedly fought with another passenger before resisting arrest by several police officers. When officials began deplaning all passengers, Garcia got into a physical altercation with another passenger and was “combative” with Miami-Dade police officers who came onto the plane. Officers deployed their Tasers and eventually were able to get Garcia off the plane.

aa.com, American Airlines Newsroom wrote:
On Sunday evening, a disagreement occurred between two passengers on American Airlines flight 2446 from Miami to Chicago O’Hare. The aircraft was still at the gate in Miami, and the instigating passenger was asked by our Miami team members to deplane and he refused. In accordance with our procedures, American began the process of deplaning the entire aircraft. During that process, a physical altercation between the same two passengers took place.

Miami-Dade police said the incident started when Garcia allegedly grabbed a female passenger without her permission and began arguing with the woman's boyfriend.
Allegedly. That's a very big word.

Here's an interesting alternative scenario;
Garcia, possibly drunk, possibly high, maybe neither, is trying to get to his seat (21A). This involves struggling past a young lady and her BF in 21B & 21C. Meanwhile, somebody else is struggling to force their over-sized carry-on bag into the overhead locker, and nudge Garcia in the back. Caught off-balance, Garcia falls towards the already seated lady, and instinctively reaches out a hand to balance himself, inadvertently placing his hand on the female's upper thigh. This being Miami in April, the woman is wearing hot pants, with acres of bare (tanned) flesh on display, exactly where Garcia's hand arrives. Garcia mumbles an apology, or a joke to try to diffuse the situation, or maybe his English isn't that good so he says nothing. The woman is startled and upset. Her boyfriend, who up until then was immersed in his phone, now takes a keen interest because his GF is distressed. Garcia, unable to express himself clearly, is now under attack for an innocent mistake beyond his control. He protests his innocence.
AA staff on-board listen to TWO people (the couple) both stating the woman was assaulted, whereas in fact the BF saw nothing himself, but neglects to mention that fact.
In the blue corner we have two witnesses accusing Garcia.
In the red corner we have Garcia, unable to clearly explain himself.

Now we have Dr Dao all over again; Garcia feels there is no reason why he should be forced off the plane. Just like Dr Dao, he resists.
Should he have followed FA instructions regardless? Many here will argue for that.
Should he have followed Police instructions regardless? Many here will argue for that too.
Now....should the FAs and/or Police also removed the couple from the flight, as their testimony was critical to the situation. If they do not (I may have missed reading that was the case) then any two passengers could conspire to have a third passenger kicked off a flight purely on their verbal say-so. Regardless of whether Garcia is guilty or innocent, removing Garcia but allowing the other two passengers involved to continue their flight would worry me!

It's all pure conjecture of course, but my alternative version of events is just as plausible as some others that have been offered here. Except I have allowed just the merest possibility Garcia is the innocent victim in all this.

The aa.com statement says simply he (Garcia) was "the instigator". And yet......

I wonder if we will ever discover the real truth?
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
Aptivaboy
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Re: Passenger Forcibly Removed off an AA Flight @ MIA

Tue Apr 24, 2018 8:31 pm

Well, we have a video of at least part of the altercation which corroborates the reported version of events. His physical combativeness with three LEOs also supports the reported version, and I'm sure the witnessing passengers and crew have all been interviewed and statements taken, and thus far no one has come forward to dispute what has been reported. At a minimum, Garcia's verbal "skills," or lack thereof, strongly suggest some form of intoxication. His behavior later on, where he tried to grab an officer's gun and tried to kick out the window of the police cruiser he was in likewise supports that interpretation. While I can accept that things may not always be quite as they seem, in this case they more than likely are just that.
 
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Re: Passenger Forcibly Removed off an AA Flight @ MIA

Tue Apr 24, 2018 8:49 pm

Just have to point out in the thread title "Passenger Forcibly Removed off an AA Flight @ MIA" that at this day and age - aren't they all forcibly removed? Just being facetious but shouldn't the title just say "Passenger Removed". That's all, no need for more because it seems every week another moron is removed from a flight and exposed to the world. You just never saw this kind of non-sense "back in the day" when folks dressed up in suits and ties and traveled. Call me old, call me stuck up, call me naive but I have flown several million miles and I have never seen an incident beyond a health incident on a flight until recently. Even then I did not grab my phone and start to film it. Instead, I just put my nose in my book and waited patiently.

Once again to the poster, not belittling the title or yourself but just making a statement of the nature of the times we live in.
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speedbird2263
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Re: Passenger Forcibly Removed off an AA Flight @ MIA

Tue Apr 24, 2018 8:52 pm

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
Aptivaboy wrote:
*A passenger onboard an American Airlines flight leaving Miami for Chicago on Sunday was arrested after he allegedly fought with another passenger before resisting arrest by several police officers. When officials began deplaning all passengers, Garcia got into a physical altercation with another passenger and was “combative” with Miami-Dade police officers who came onto the plane. Officers deployed their Tasers and eventually were able to get Garcia off the plane.

aa.com, American Airlines Newsroom wrote:
On Sunday evening, a disagreement occurred between two passengers on American Airlines flight 2446 from Miami to Chicago O’Hare. The aircraft was still at the gate in Miami, and the instigating passenger was asked by our Miami team members to deplane and he refused. In accordance with our procedures, American began the process of deplaning the entire aircraft. During that process, a physical altercation between the same two passengers took place.

Miami-Dade police said the incident started when Garcia allegedly grabbed a female passenger without her permission and began arguing with the woman's boyfriend.
Allegedly. That's a very big word.

Here's an interesting alternative scenario;
Garcia, possibly drunk, possibly high, maybe neither, is trying to get to his seat (21A). This involves struggling past a young lady and her BF in 21B & 21C. Meanwhile, somebody else is struggling to force their over-sized carry-on bag into the overhead locker, and nudge Garcia in the back. Caught off-balance, Garcia falls towards the already seated lady, and instinctively reaches out a hand to balance himself, inadvertently placing his hand on the female's upper thigh. This being Miami in April, the woman is wearing hot pants, with acres of bare (tanned) flesh on display, exactly where Garcia's hand arrives. Garcia mumbles an apology, or a joke to try to diffuse the situation, or maybe his English isn't that good so he says nothing. The woman is startled and upset. Her boyfriend, who up until then was immersed in his phone, now takes a keen interest because his GF is distressed. Garcia, unable to express himself clearly, is now under attack for an innocent mistake beyond his control. He protests his innocence.
AA staff on-board listen to TWO people (the couple) both stating the woman was assaulted, whereas in fact the BF saw nothing himself, but neglects to mention that fact.
In the blue corner we have two witnesses accusing Garcia.
In the red corner we have Garcia, unable to clearly explain himself.

Now we have Dr Dao all over again; Garcia feels there is no reason why he should be forced off the plane. Just like Dr Dao, he resists.
Should he have followed FA instructions regardless? Many here will argue for that.
Should he have followed Police instructions regardless? Many here will argue for that too.
Now....should the FAs and/or Police also removed the couple from the flight, as their testimony was critical to the situation. If they do not (I may have missed reading that was the case) then any two passengers could conspire to have a third passenger kicked off a flight purely on their verbal say-so. Regardless of whether Garcia is guilty or innocent, removing Garcia but allowing the other two passengers involved to continue their flight would worry me!

It's all pure conjecture of course, but my alternative version of events is just as plausible as some others that have been offered here. Except I have allowed just the merest possibility Garcia is the innocent victim in all this.

The aa.com statement says simply he (Garcia) was "the instigator". And yet......

I wonder if we will ever discover the real truth?


You should write screenplays :lol: :bigthumbsup: . Well played....alternatively.
Straight'n Up 'N Fly Right Son
 
User avatar
Blimpie
Posts: 303
Joined: Fri Mar 21, 2014 3:48 pm

Re: Passenger Forcibly Removed off an AA Flight @ MIA

Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:10 pm

Jetty wrote:
Aptivaboy wrote:
When someone is in a closed space like a jetliner, probably intoxicated, who had already assaulted other passengers and refuses to comply with lawful and reasonable commands, the police will use what force they need to use.

And they should. That they handcuffed the guy within a minute after the taser didn't work shows that they didn't need the taser at all.

Seriously, ask an LEO, see what they say.

In the US you might very well get the answer you provide. In other western countries you'll more likely get my answer. That's why I mentioned US law enforcement might learn a thing or 2 abroad. In my country of 17 million people the taser got used a total of 65 times last year, and that's not in situations like this. And guess what, 0 cops died while doing there job.


Not to get too far off topic, but a quick YouTube search would HIGHLY counter all your arguments about the friendly Canadian police who would never use any level of force against a belligerent drunk:

https://youtu.be/KEPlqfLcmjw
https://youtu.be/fBpJD5JnaHc
https://youtu.be/A5TD4N4FSt8

I could post at least twenty more YT videos from cellphone cams and local news report from Toronto alone about overly aggressive LEO arrests by your standards. Note, I'm not stating that any of these videos of Canadian LEO is an abusive use of force or not, but since you open this door and keep arguing like Canada is some la-la land where law enforcement skips down a rainbow paved street with cotton candy in place of taser; it is absolutely not.

I am assuming if you are Canadian, that you're in the middle of Moosehead, Manitoba; if not, please state your country so in the event that I see any reply, can insert abuse of force video from any other western nation. In my thirty years as a journalist, I've seen British, French, German, and even Swedish cops beat the [email protected] out of unarmed civilians to force LEO compliance; granted most were against drunk idiots.

Getting back on topic. I'm glad local LEO's came on and removed that dingbat. If he was that disruptive before taking off, hell forbid what chuckles could have done to the other passengers, or the flight crew at FL300.
Now get the hell off of my lawn your dang kids!
 
Jetty
Posts: 1013
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2015 12:27 pm

Re: Passenger Forcibly Removed off an AA Flight @ MIA

Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:13 pm

Aptivaboy wrote:
How would you have gotten him off of the plane? He was combative, aggressive, and refused to comply with lawful commands. How would you have done it?

https://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/Pas ... 27161.html

Exactly the way they've done it, minus the taser. The taser didn't work so evidently is wasn't needed in the first place.
 
INFINITI329
Posts: 2472
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2012 12:53 am

Re: Passenger Forcibly Removed off an AA Flight @ MIA

Tue Apr 24, 2018 10:28 pm

There is something called the Use of force continuum, which dictates the progressive approach to the use of force. In summary, it would be presence/verbal commands>physical force > non-lethal force (taser,oc spray baton)> deadly force (watered down for easier consumption on aviation site). Every situation is different, the totality of circumstances must be taken into account. In this situation, I don't see anything wrong deploying the taser expect for the fact I feel they should have dry stunned him instead of firing barbs because they could be missed and hit another passenger. If you're not getting anywhere with physical force non-lethal is the next step up. One must understand you're fighting someone in a very confined space so certain physical attributed are taken away, therefore, reducing their effectiveness If this occurred in the terminal highly unlikely a taser would have been needed. This not another Dr. Dao situation. A criminal act had been alleged to have occurred.
 
User avatar
BN727227Ultra
Posts: 633
Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2014 7:15 pm

Re: Passenger Forcibly Removed off an AA Flight @ MIA

Tue Apr 24, 2018 11:44 pm

flymco753 wrote:
I wonder what would’ve happened if the passengers would’ve just beat him up?


No one in the cabin would have seen anything! :eyepopping:
 
cvgComair
Posts: 2040
Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2016 3:48 pm

Re: Passenger Forcibly Removed off an AA Flight @ MIA

Wed Apr 25, 2018 12:03 am

Blimpie wrote:
Jetty wrote:
Aptivaboy wrote:
When someone is in a closed space like a jetliner, probably intoxicated, who had already assaulted other passengers and refuses to comply with lawful and reasonable commands, the police will use what force they need to use.

And they should. That they handcuffed the guy within a minute after the taser didn't work shows that they didn't need the taser at all.

Seriously, ask an LEO, see what they say.

In the US you might very well get the answer you provide. In other western countries you'll more likely get my answer. That's why I mentioned US law enforcement might learn a thing or 2 abroad. In my country of 17 million people the taser got used a total of 65 times last year, and that's not in situations like this. And guess what, 0 cops died while doing there job.


Not to get too far off topic, but a quick YouTube search would HIGHLY counter all your arguments about the friendly Canadian police who would never use any level of force against a belligerent drunk:

https://youtu.be/KEPlqfLcmjw
https://youtu.be/fBpJD5JnaHc
https://youtu.be/A5TD4N4FSt8

I could post at least twenty more YT videos from cellphone cams and local news report from Toronto alone about overly aggressive LEO arrests by your standards. Note, I'm not stating that any of these videos of Canadian LEO is an abusive use of force or not, but since you open this door and keep arguing like Canada is some la-la land where law enforcement skips down a rainbow paved street with cotton candy in place of taser; it is absolutely not.

I am assuming if you are Canadian, that you're in the middle of Moosehead, Manitoba; if not, please state your country so in the event that I see any reply, can insert abuse of force video from any other western nation. In my thirty years as a journalist, I've seen British, French, German, and even Swedish cops beat the [email protected] out of unarmed civilians to force LEO compliance; granted most were against drunk idiots.

Getting back on topic. I'm glad local LEO's came on and removed that dingbat. If he was that disruptive before taking off, hell forbid what chuckles could have done to the other passengers, or the flight crew at FL300.

To add onto this, the US has a much larger population than Canada, France, Britain, Australia, etc, so we are going to have more incidents with police simply because it is a larger population. The US has 325 million people, Canada has 36 million, therefore, we should have 10x the amount of police encounters. Most countries with populations bigger/similar to the US are places like China/India/Russia/Pakistan/Nigeria/Indonesia, where every incident is not going to get publicized in Western media. We have our fare share of incidents with discriminatory motives, but this was just an idiot being sexually/physically abusive towards other passengers and police, I see no reason not to use force and ban this guy from every flying again.
 
buzzard302
Posts: 159
Joined: Sat Jun 06, 2015 12:06 pm

Re: Passenger Forcibly Removed off an AA Flight @ MIA

Wed Apr 25, 2018 1:38 am

Once law enforcement decides (right or wrong) that they are detaining you, shut up and cooperate. There is no changing an officer's mind, so escalating the situation just puts everyone in more danger of being hurt. This is why so many police shootings occur. People resist, escalate, and threaten the officer. I'm not defending police, there are bad decisions made on both sides daily. But playing tough guy with the police only makes a crappy situation worse.
 
Aptivaboy
Posts: 804
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2016 3:32 pm

Re: Passenger Forcibly Removed off an AA Flight @ MIA

Wed Apr 25, 2018 4:34 am

Exactly the way they've done it, minus the taser. The taser didn't work so evidently is wasn't needed in the first place.


Actually, the taser did work as designed. The perp's clothes were apparently too thick for the barbs to penetrate. Defeated by simple cloth, sigh... That actually isn't too strange. I do HEMA, Historical European Martial Arts, and all manner of weapons from swords to daggers to arrows can be defeated by simple cloth or usually layers of cloth defenses in the proper order. There's a reason so many medieval and Renaissance men at arms continued using cloth and leather defenses, and it wasn't just cost - it worked and was relatively lightweight. So, I'm not shocked that the taser barbs couldn't completely penetrate, make contact with Garcia's skin, and zap him. Taser barbs also don't exactly shoot at at supersonic velocities, either.

Just because the taser's barbs were defeated by his clothes doesn't mean that using the taser was unnecessary. Just because the cops were able to eventually handle this guy without a taser doesn't mean its deployment wasn't proper at the time. You use what you have in front of you, what you're been trained to use. The police acted appropriately here - no police brutality, not excessive force, just a rude drunk who is doubtless spending some time in the local jail, where he should be.
 
santi319
Posts: 866
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2005 3:24 pm

Re: Passenger Forcibly Removed off an AA Flight @ MIA

Wed Apr 25, 2018 4:51 am

I wonder when do we get to have a board entirely dedicated to news of "unfair" pax removals shared by social media. This surely will free up some space in the civil aviation forum....
 
User avatar
ricport
Posts: 147
Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2014 5:48 pm

Re: Passenger Forcibly Removed off an AA Flight @ MIA

Wed Apr 25, 2018 5:35 pm

...yet when Dr. Feelgood disrupts an entire flight, legions of social media dipwads crawl out of the woodwork to make him a hero.

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